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Old 07-07-2005, 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted by sky_kid
The us, create support for the war on terror in britan.

funnny,, come to think of it, i think, more british have been killed by americans in iraq then were killed by this attack..
ummm.... no
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Old 07-07-2005, 10:20 PM
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dont worry everyone we are safe half of the middle east already lives here they wont bomb us.Refugees come on in our flood gates are WIDE open.
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Old 07-07-2005, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by 1cam8valves
People throughout history have twisted ALL religions to support their fanatical goals, David Koresh(Waco Texas) ring a bell?
Obviously you have never read the Koran and take the word of the PC hippies in the media that Islam is a peaceful and loving religion on it’s face. Islam is different than Christianity and most other mainstream world religions. No one needs to distort and reinterpret Islam in an evil way because it already comes that way by default.

David Koresh and his followers were a tiny minority numbering merely several dozen, whereas militant fundamentalist Islam has supporters numbering in the hundreds of millions throughout the Islamic world. Osama Bin Laden is the largest living hero in the Islamic world, go to most Islamic capitals and you will see his face on car bumper stickers, cell phones, posters etc. Bin Laden is only revered second to Muhammed the founder of Islam.
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Old 07-07-2005, 11:21 PM
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Originally Posted by bruno129
Koresh was a flash in the pan. How about the crusades ? In between the 11 and 15 centuries Catholic "Soldiers of the church" Basically went across europe on the orders of the pope killing anyone that wasn't or didn't want to become catholic

What's going on now between muslims and Israelis in the west bank and Gaza Strip ??
The important difference in this situation is that there was no literal Biblical justification for this unlike the critical Koranic concept of Jihad (holy war).

Originally Posted by bruno129
You can't just blame Muslims or blame the Qur'an
Only if one had their head up their ****.

Originally Posted by bruno129
(NOT koran - If you're going to mention it at least do it the dignity of spelling it right)
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=koran

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionar...koran&x=11&y=8

Either are correct English.

Originally Posted by bruno129
The Qur'an and Islam by no strech of the imagination condone these actions and on the other hand like any other religion condemns such acts towards your fellow man.
How wrong you are…

Originally Posted by bruno129
It's a strong sign of ignorance to state that any religion promotes and incourages any sort of actions.
To the contrary, it a strong sign of ignorance to comment on this topic when you have never read the Koran and know nothing about the religion.

Originally Posted by bruno129
But I have respect for the beliefs of others and their religions and I thik it's EXTREMELLY wrong to go around talking about other's other people's beliefs
Muslims know that most infidels (literal Arabic/Koranic definition for a non-believer ie. Any Christian, Jew, Hindu, Buddhist or other non-muslim) are just too lazy to expend the enormous amount of time and energy that is necessary to understand what Islam is really about. So, they paint an innocuous picture of Islam that hides aspects that we, as civilized people who understand the merits of secular democracy, would find primitive, barbaric, and menacing to our way of life. This is acceptable since it's in the cause of Islam. Jihad takes the cake in this dishonesty game for example.

We're constantly told that we misinterpret jihad. It's not about "holy war"! It's about a peaceful inner struggle to improve oneself and ones society. We hear how even we, the accursed infidel, have our own jihad to fight against our base impulses. See? That bad ol' jihad isn't so scary now, is it?

This is where it is helpful to know about some of the more respected and mainstream (to Muslims, not to infidels) sheikhs, muftis, imams, et al, who clearly explicate, as per the Koran and hadith, how a pious Muslim is to live. I mentioned the "moderate" Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi the other day here, I think, and his fatwa on killing American civilians in Iraq. Well, here are two other highly regarded, esteemed ulema and their fatwas on offensive jihad. I'm sorry about the length of the second one, but it's necessary to convey the pith of this matter, and I'm doing the research that you are apparently unable or unwilling to do. Offensive jihad is indeed compulsory in Islam.

cont.
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Old 07-07-2005, 11:23 PM
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Question

I have been reading Tafsir e Usmani for the last month or so. In it I have read that offensive Jihad (first attack) should be done by Muslims for 2 reasons. 1) For the sake of Allah (in the Way of God) 2) For the sake of subjugated people under oppression like in Kashmir, Palestine etc. Now the second reason I completely understand. But the explanation given of the first reason is "For the sake of Allah includes the propagation of Islam, the survival of Islam, the extermination of those hindrances which impede the progress and expansion of Islam." (explanation of verse 190, Surah baqara) I really don't understand this explanation. What does propagation of Islam mean here? Does it mean that we are to attack even those non-Muslims which don't do anything against Islam just because we have to propagate Islam? For example, there are many countries in the world which are not enemies of Islam in any way (at least I think so). Please explain to me against which Non-Muslims, the Muslims have to do Jihad and against which, Jihad is not allowed. JazakAllah Khair.

Answer

You should understand that we as Muslims firmly believe that the person who doesn't believe in Allah as he is required to, is a disbeliever who would be doomed to Hell eternally. Thus one of the primary responsibilities of the Muslim ruler is to Islam throughout the world, thus saving people from eternal damnation.

Thus what is meant by the passage in Tafsir Uthmani, is that if a country doesn't allow the propagation of Islam to its inhabitants in a suitable manner or creates hindrances to this, then the Muslim ruler would be justifying in waging Jihad against this country, so that the message of Islam can reach its inhabitants, thus saving them from the Fire of Jahannum. If the Kuffaar allow us to Islam peacefully, then we would not wage Jihad against them.

and Allah Ta'ala Knows Best

http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=12128
Pretty straightforward, right? Well, Mufti Desai is actually a bit coy here, because he's pretty famous and he can't really unleash the true, infidel-killing power of the Koran and hadith. I know someone who can, though:

cont.
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Old 07-07-2005, 11:24 PM
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Question:

Is it obligatory for every Muslim to go out for jihad? Or is jihad mustahabb and not obligatory?

Answer:
Praise be to Allaah.

Physical jihad is the pinnacle of Islam, and some scholars regarded it as the sixth pillar of Islam.

The Muslims have neglected jihad for a long time, so they deserve the punishment of Allaah, to be humiliated, belittled and defeated. That humiliation will never be lifted from them until they come back to their religion as the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “When you enter into the ‘aynah transaction, hold the tails of oxen, are content with farming, and give up jihad, Allaah will cause humiliation to prevail over you, and will not withdraw it until you return to your commitment to Islam.” Narrated by Abu Dawood, 2956; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood.

[Translator’s note: ‘Aynah transaction means to sell a product for a known price with deferred payment and then buy it back from the purchaser for a lesser price, so the purchaser will still have to pay the difference in the future]

One of the strangest things to note is that we are living in a time when some of the Muslims are embarrassed to quote the verses and ahaadeeth on jihad in front of their kaafir friends. Their faces turn red because they are too shy to mention the rulings on the jizyah, slavery and killing prisoners of war. They wish that they could erase these verses and ahaadeeth from the Qur’aan and Sunnah so that they would not be criticized by this world with its backward principles despite its claims to be civilized. If they cannot erase them then they try to misinterpret them and distort their meanings so that they suit the whims and desires of their masters. I will not say so that they suit their whims and desires, for they are too weak to have their own whims and desires, and too ignorant. Rather it is the whims and desires of their masters and teachers among the missionaries and colonialists, the enemies of Islam.”

‘Umdat al-Tafseer , 1/46.

The result of that is that we hardly hear anything nowadays apart from the following phrases: world peace … peaceful coexistence … safe borders … a new world order … the calamities of war…

Those who proclaim the verses and ahaadeeth of jihad nowadays are subject to a number of accusations. They are called terrorists, extremists, enemies of peace and bloodthirsty, and are accused of wanting to destroy twentieth century civilization.

This is the unfortunate reality in which the Muslim ummah is living nowadays. That is because we have given up supporting our religion and doing the duties that Allaah has enjoined upon us.

Allaah has commanded us to support His religion and to wage jihad against His enemies.

There are so many verses that enjoin jihad against the mushrikeen and fighting them until all submission is for Allaah alone; they clearly state that it is obligatory and is prescribed and is compulsory. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Jihaad holy fighting in Allaah’s Cause) is ordained for you (Muslims) though you dislike it, and it may be that you dislike a thing which is good for you and that you like a thing which is bad for you. Allaah knows but you do not know”

[al-Baqarah 2:216]

Rulings on jihad

The scholars (may Allaah have mercy on them) have mentioned the rulings on jihad and have stated that jihad is of two types:

1 – Taking the initiative in fighting

This means pursuing the kaafirs in their lands and calling them to Islam and fighting them if they do not agree to submit to the rule of Islam.

This kind of jihad is fard kifaayah (a communal obligation) upon the Muslims. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism, i.e. worshipping others besides Allaah), and the religion (worship) will all be for Allaah Alone [in the whole of the world]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allaah), then certainly, Allaah is All-Seer of what they do”
cont.
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Old 07-07-2005, 11:26 PM
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[al-Anfaal 8:39]

“Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikoon (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush. But if they repent [by rejecting Shirk (polytheism) and accept Islamic Monotheism] and perform As?Salaah (Iqaamat-as-Salaah), and give Zakaah, then leave their way free. Verily, Allaah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful”

[al-Tawbah 9:5]

“and fight against the Mushrikoon (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allaah) collectively as they fight against you collectively. But know that Allaah is with those who are Al?Muttaqoon (the pious)”

[al-Tawbah 9:36]

“March forth, whether you are light (being healthy, young and wealthy) or heavy (being ill, old and poor), and strive hard with your wealth and your lives in the Cause of Allaah. This is better for you, if you but knew”
[al-Tawbah 9:41]

It was narrated from Ibn ‘Umar that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “I have been commanded to fight the people until they bear witness that there is no god but Allaah, and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allaah, and establish regular prayer, and pay zakaah, If they do that then their blood and wealth is safe from me, except by the laws of Islam, and their reckoning will be with Allaah.”

Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 24; Muslim, 29.

Muslim (3533) narrated from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever dies without having fought or thought to himself about fighting has died following one of the branches of hypocrisy.”

All of these texts – and many others in the Qur’aan and Sunnah – mean that it is obligatory for the Muslims to wage jihad against the kuffaar and take the initiative in that. The scholars are unanimously agreed that jihad against the kuffar, and seeking them in their own lands, and calling them to Islam, and waging jihad against them if they do not accept Islam or accept paying the jizyah, is obligatory and has not been abrogated.

Shaykh al-Islam (28/249) said:

Everyone who hears the call of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) to the religion of Allaah with which he was sent and does not respond to it must be fought so that there will be no fitnah and so that submission will all be for Allaah.

Ibn ‘Atiyah said (2/43): There remains scholarly consensus that jihad is a communal obligation upon the ummah of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and if some of the Muslims undertake this duty the rest are absolved of responsibility.

2 – Jihad in self-defence.

If the kuffaar attack and occupy a Muslim country, or they prepare to attack the Muslims, then it is obligatory for the Muslims to fight them so as to ward off their evil and foil their plots. Jihad in self-defence is fard ‘ayn (an individual obligation) upon the Muslims, according to scholarly consensus.

Al-Qurtubi (may Allaah have mercy on him) said in his Tafseer (8/15):

When jihad becomes inevitable because the enemy has overrun one of the (Muslim) regions, then it becomes obligatory for all the people of that region to mobilize and to go out to fight, whether they are light (being healthy, young and wealthy) or heavy (being ill, old and poor), each according to his abilities, with or without the permission of his parents. No one who is able to go out, warrior or helper, should stay behind. If the people of that country are unable to fight their enemy, then those in nearby and neighbouring countries have to go out to fight, in whatever numbers are required to show support, so that they will know that they have the strength to stand up to them and ward them off. Similarly everyone who knows of their weakness in the face of their enemies and knows that he can go and help them must also go out and fight. All of the Muslims should be united against their enemies. If the people of the area where the enemy has invaded and occupied fight off the enemy themselves, then the others are relieved of that duty. If the enemy approaches the Muslim lands but does not enter, the Muslims must still go out to confront them so that the religion of Allaah will prevail and in order to protect the Muslim homeland and humiliate the enemy. There is no scholarly dispute on this point.

Shaykh al-Islam (28/358-359) said:

If the enemy wants to attack the Muslims then resisting becomes obligatory on all those who are under threat, and those who are not under threat are obliged to help them, as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“but if they seek your help in religion, it is your duty to help them except against a people with whom you have a treaty of mutual alliance”
cont.
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Old 07-07-2005, 11:28 PM
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[al-Anfaal 8:72]

And the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) also commanded us to help other Muslims. This is obligatory upon each person as much as possible, by fighting himself or by giving financial support, as was the case at the time of al-Khandaq, when Allaah did not grant any concession to anyone not to fight. Rather the Qur’aan condemns those who asked the Prophet for permission [not to fight] on the grounds that their houses were vulnerable when that was not the case, rather they just wanted to flee the battle. This fighting is in order to protect the relihion, and protect lives and honour, and this is absolutely essential.

This is the ruling on physical jihad in Islam, whether that is taking the initiative to call the kuffaar to enter this religion and subjugate them to the rule of Islam, or jihad to defend the religion and honour of the Muslims.

We ask Allaah to bring the Muslims back to their religion.

And Allaah knows best.

http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&QR=34830
All right, it doesn't get any clearer than that. I would also suggest to anyone who is interested in understanding the truth about what we're up against when it comes to Islam to read about its history. Because when it comes down to it, it doesn't always matter a whole lot what people say and what they use to convince you that they're not a threat, actions speak louder than words, and "wherefore by their fruits you shall know them (Mat 7:20)." Check out Ibn Ishaq's Sirat Rasul Allah if you live near a decent university library. You'll begin to get an idea of what a degenerate "God's last prophet" really was, and this is the exemplar of all Muslims, the pinnacle of how a good Muslim should act. Muslims are just pretty much screwed until a fairly large group of them fearlessly stand up and say, "Enough is enough, we need reform." I'm not holding my breath while waiting.
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Old 07-08-2005, 12:00 AM
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Could you paraphrase that into 3 short sentences please? No need to post their entire version of the bible, or whatever that jibberish is.
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Old 07-08-2005, 12:19 AM
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Thumbs up

Originally Posted by Pipes
Could you paraphrase that into 3 short sentences please? No need to post their entire version of the bible, or whatever that jibberish is.
In short the Koran states:

We are infidels therefore it is the duty of every good Muslim through jihad (holy war) to force us (all Christians, Jews, Buddhist, Hindu etc.)to covert, if we don't we should be killed. In return for waging jihad in the name of allah he gives them 72 virgins in heaven.
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Old 07-08-2005, 01:57 AM
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Thats some wack , When i get some time i actually want to read all of this.

Eather way, History major babble out of the way, My condolances go out to the victims, Its no way to die, and with like this happing, and canada on the list of 7 countrys that alkida (sp im tired) has mentioned as direct targets it makes you worry.
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Old 07-08-2005, 03:08 AM
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Originally Posted by bruno129
What's going on now between muslims and Israelis in the west bank and Gaza Strip ??

You can't just blame Muslims or blame the Qur'an (NOT koran - If you're going to mention it at least do it the dignity of spelling it right)

The Qur'an and Islam by no strech of the imagination condone these actions and on the other hand like any other religion condemns such acts towards your fellow man.
Wow do you have your head up you *** or what?

Hows this for you...

The Quran also attributes negative characteristics to Christians like "falsehood" (Sura 3:71) and "distortion" (Sura 4:46). Among other things, the Qur’an teaches that the Jews have been cursed by Allah, as well as by David and Jesus. (Sura 2:61/58, Sura 5:78/82) And Allah was so disgusted with Jews that he transformed them into apes and pigs. (Sura 5:60/65, 2:65 and 7:166).

You can find any of those full scripts on google or other sites...if you want i can link them too.

But do not come on here and preach about what you know and what you think you know...cause it aint .

As for those in london and all the innocent people that have died for no reason in other countries without as much press and popularity rest in peace.
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Old 07-08-2005, 10:45 AM
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what.the.hell. whoa, I actually read all of that. Is that stuff ACTUALLY true, or like peoples interpretations of Islam? If its true, then we are all apparently damned to hell... my ***, im not damned to hell!

Originally Posted by newbieracer
Eather way, History major babble out of the way, My condolances go out to the victims, Its no way to die, and with like this happing, and canada on the list of 7 countrys that alkida (sp im tired) has mentioned as direct targets it makes you worry.
are you serious? why is Canada on the list, Jean Chretian(sp?) even decided not to go to war with the US...
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Old 07-08-2005, 12:14 PM
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Zazzn - 1 stop over from where i got off is where the first blast was! MAY HAVE BEEN MY TRAIN! says:
wait till i tell you that i almost got blown up

adam -- too perfect -- says:
thats ed

adam -- too perfect -- says:
that close huh?

Zazzn - 1 stop over from where i got off is where the first blast was! MAY HAVE BEEN MY TRAIN! says:
yeah man..

Zazzn - 1 stop over from where i got off is where the first blast was! MAY HAVE BEEN MY TRAIN! says:
blast was 9:17

Zazzn - 1 stop over from where i got off is where the first blast was! MAY HAVE BEEN MY TRAIN! says:
i got off the train at 9:15

Zazzn - 1 stop over from where i got off is where the first blast was! MAY HAVE BEEN MY TRAIN! says:
one stop ealier

Zazzn - 1 stop over from where i got off is where the first blast was! MAY HAVE BEEN MY TRAIN! says:
i'm pretty sure it was the train i was on

Zazzn - 1 stop over from where i got off is where the first blast was! MAY HAVE BEEN MY TRAIN! says:
well not mine

Zazzn - 1 stop over from where i got off is where the first blast was! MAY HAVE BEEN MY TRAIN! says:
but sorry mine was affected by that blast

adam -- too perfect -- says:
thats insane

adam -- too perfect -- says:
...

Zazzn - 1 stop over from where i got off is where the first blast was! MAY HAVE BEEN MY TRAIN! says:
yeah man

Zazzn - 1 stop over from where i got off is where the first blast was! MAY HAVE BEEN MY TRAIN! says:
its ed becuase I only went to london today for the first time in like weeks because I had a meeting with a cusotmer

Zazzn - 1 stop over from where i got off is where the first blast was! MAY HAVE BEEN MY TRAIN! says:
other then that I wouldn't be there.

adam -- too perfect -- says:
damn....
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Old 07-08-2005, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by drift_n_shift
what.the.hell. whoa, I actually read all of that. Is that stuff ACTUALLY true, or like peoples interpretations of Islam? If its true, then we are all apparently damned to hell... my ***, im not damned to hell!


are you serious? why is Canada on the list, Jean Chretian(sp?) even decided not to go to war with the US...
no idea man but when i was watching the news our head of security came on and said that canada was not raising its threat level even though Canada was directly named by the alkida as a targeted country mid to late last year, or somthing like that.
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