[Fwd: Ignition timing question...?]
 

This should initiate some good debate...

I've always understood that ignition timing should be set with any
advance systems (vacuum diaphragm, etc.) disconnected. I tried to set
up my '87 Accord that way, and I can't get anywhere near the 20-degree
timing mark with the vacuum advance disonnected. Leaving the vacuum
line attached, it jumps right close to the 2-degree mark and seems to
run well, if missing a little "jump". Oddly enough, when I accidentally
took a test drive while forgetting to reconnect the vacuum line, it seem
to have a lot better pick-up when I punched the gas...

Anyway, I'm looking in the shop manual... the directions say to
disconnect, test, and then plug the vacuum lines, then goes on to list
the proper timing settings for various engine/transmission setups, never
specifying that one should reconnect the vacuum lines, and describes how
to adjust the timing by twisting the distributor. So far so good...

BUT... all the diagrams show the vacuum lines still attached... AND the
next step tells how to check the cold-advance operation (on engines that
have it), while the following step THEN tells you to disconnect the
vacuum hose(s), plug them, and then check the timing with an advance
meter, listing way lower advance settings than the previous chart.

Example: the first chart
(http://moltenimage.com/freebies/g3ac...rical/24-4.JPG)
shows that the A20A2s should be anywhere from 10+/-2 to 20+/-2 degrees
(depending on variant and transmission) - it doesn't specifically say
the advance lines should or shouldn't be connected, but you see in an
earlier step that they have been disconnected and not reconnected.
Meanwhile, the subsequent step
(http://moltenimage.com/freebies/g3ac...rical/24-5.JPG)
says after disconnecting and plugging the hoses, all A20A2s should be 4
degrees.

So what's the story? Experience indicates that timing should be checked
and set to 20 degrees (there's an actual "20-degree" mark on the
flywheel) WITH the main advance line connected. Old-school knowledge,
however, suggests that the line should be disconnected and plugged, but
when I do that, it's impossible to get anywhere near 20 degrees (and
really, old-school knowledge suggests that 20 degrees BTDC is an
*insane* amount of advance for ANY engine).

I've seen this topic generate a lot of debate on a couple boards over
which is the proper procedure... just wondering what the concensus is in
these parts?



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Re: [Fwd: Ignition timing question...?]
 

Matt Ion wrote:
> This should initiate some good debate...
>
> I've always understood that ignition timing should be set with any
> advance systems (vacuum diaphragm, etc.) disconnected. I tried to set
> up my '87 Accord that way, and I can't get anywhere near the 20-degree
> timing mark with the vacuum advance disonnected. Leaving the vacuum
> line attached, it jumps right close to the 2-degree mark and seems to
> run well, if missing a little "jump". Oddly enough, when I accidentally
> took a test drive while forgetting to reconnect the vacuum line, it seem
> to have a lot better pick-up when I punched the gas...
>
> Anyway, I'm looking in the shop manual... the directions say to
> disconnect, test, and then plug the vacuum lines, then goes on to list
> the proper timing settings for various engine/transmission setups, never
> specifying that one should reconnect the vacuum lines, and describes how
> to adjust the timing by twisting the distributor. So far so good...
>
> BUT... all the diagrams show the vacuum lines still attached... AND the
> next step tells how to check the cold-advance operation (on engines that
> have it), while the following step THEN tells you to disconnect the
> vacuum hose(s), plug them, and then check the timing with an advance
> meter, listing way lower advance settings than the previous chart.
>
> Example: the first chart
> (http://moltenimage.com/freebies/g3ac...rical/24-4.JPG)
> shows that the A20A2s should be anywhere from 10+/-2 to 20+/-2 degrees
> (depending on variant and transmission) - it doesn't specifically say
> the advance lines should or shouldn't be connected, but you see in an
> earlier step that they have been disconnected and not reconnected.
> Meanwhile, the subsequent step
> (http://moltenimage.com/freebies/g3ac...rical/24-5.JPG)
> says after disconnecting and plugging the hoses, all A20A2s should be 4
> degrees.
>
> So what's the story? Experience indicates that timing should be checked
> and set to 20 degrees (there's an actual "20-degree" mark on the
> flywheel) WITH the main advance line connected. Old-school knowledge,
> however, suggests that the line should be disconnected and plugged, but
> when I do that, it's impossible to get anywhere near 20 degrees (and
> really, old-school knowledge suggests that 20 degrees BTDC is an
> *insane* amount of advance for ANY engine).

matt, if the honda factory manual says disconnect, then you disconnect.
end of story. and who are you to judge 20 degrees? you've got two
vacuum diaphragms iirc, both affect timing when connected, and their
subsequent movement produces the correct result for that engine. it's
real simple.

>
> I've seen this topic generate a lot of debate on a couple boards over
> which is the proper procedure... just wondering what the concensus is in
> these parts?
>
>
>
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>

Re: [Fwd: Ignition timing question...?]
 

jim beam wrote:

> matt, if the honda factory manual says disconnect, then you disconnect.
> end of story. and who are you to judge 20 degrees? you've got two
> vacuum diaphragms iirc, both affect timing when connected, and their
> subsequent movement produces the correct result for that engine. it's
> real simple.

The thing is, the manual contradicts itself. If you actually follow the
steps in order, it's got you disconnecting the hoses twice (and btw,
only one is normally used, the other operates only when the engine is
cold), and it's got two different advance settings, one saying for the
A20A2 it should be 10, 15 or 20 degrees depending on the exact variant,
the other saying it should be 4 degrees for all A20A2s.


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Re: [Fwd: Ignition timing question...?]
 

Matt Ion wrote:
> jim beam wrote:
>
>> matt, if the honda factory manual says disconnect, then you
>> disconnect. end of story. and who are you to judge 20 degrees?
>> you've got two vacuum diaphragms iirc, both affect timing when
>> connected, and their subsequent movement produces the correct result
>> for that engine. it's real simple.
>
>
> The thing is, the manual contradicts itself. If you actually follow the
> steps in order, it's got you disconnecting the hoses twice (and btw,
> only one is normally used, the other operates only when the engine is
> cold), and it's got two different advance settings, one saying for the
> A20A2 it should be 10, 15 or 20 degrees depending on the exact variant,
> the other saying it should be 4 degrees for all A20A2s.
>
which manual is that matt?

Re: [Fwd: Ignition timing question...?]
 

jim beam wrote:
> Matt Ion wrote:
>
>> jim beam wrote:
>>
>>> matt, if the honda factory manual says disconnect, then you
>>> disconnect. end of story. and who are you to judge 20 degrees?
>>> you've got two vacuum diaphragms iirc, both affect timing when
>>> connected, and their subsequent movement produces the correct result
>>> for that engine. it's real simple.
>>
>>
>>
>> The thing is, the manual contradicts itself. If you actually follow
>> the steps in order, it's got you disconnecting the hoses twice (and
>> btw, only one is normally used, the other operates only when the
>> engine is cold), and it's got two different advance settings, one
>> saying for the A20A2 it should be 10, 15 or 20 degrees depending on
>> the exact variant, the other saying it should be 4 degrees for all
>> A20A2s.
>>
> which manual is that matt?

The Honda factory manual. I put links to images of the manual pages in
my original post, which you obviously didn't read in its entirety, since
I also described the contradiction TWICE.

Or, if you insist on being so ing obtuse, don't even bother.


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Re: [Fwd: Ignition timing question...?]
 

Matt Ion wrote:
> jim beam wrote:
>
>> Matt Ion wrote:
>>
>>> jim beam wrote:
>>>
>>>> matt, if the honda factory manual says disconnect, then you
>>>> disconnect. end of story. and who are you to judge 20 degrees?
>>>> you've got two vacuum diaphragms iirc, both affect timing when
>>>> connected, and their subsequent movement produces the correct result
>>>> for that engine. it's real simple.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The thing is, the manual contradicts itself. If you actually follow
>>> the steps in order, it's got you disconnecting the hoses twice (and
>>> btw, only one is normally used, the other operates only when the
>>> engine is cold), and it's got two different advance settings, one
>>> saying for the A20A2 it should be 10, 15 or 20 degrees depending on
>>> the exact variant, the other saying it should be 4 degrees for all
>>> A20A2s.
>>>
>> which manual is that matt?
>
>
> The Honda factory manual. I put links to images of the manual pages in
> my original post, which you obviously didn't read in its entirety, since
> I also described the contradiction TWICE.
>
> Or, if you insist on being so ing obtuse, don't even bother.
>
1. for a guy that wants free advice, you're not very adept at ensuring
you get it, are you?

2. if you read your manual, you'd see that it's perfectly clear on which
timing is for which series engine. read it. and the section on testing
the vacuum settings is not relevant to setting the timing. again, the
manual is very clear.

Re: [Fwd: Ignition timing question...?]
 

"Matt Ion" <soundy@moltenimage.com> wrote in message news:Luu4f.213085$tl2.16414@pd7tw3no...

> The thing is, the manual contradicts itself. If you actually follow the
> steps in order, it's got you disconnecting the hoses twice (and btw,
> only one is normally used, the other operates only when the engine is
> cold), and it's got two different advance settings, one saying for the
> A20A2 it should be 10, 15 or 20 degrees depending on the exact variant,
> the other saying it should be 4 degrees for all A20A2s.

> The Honda factory manual. I put links to images of the manual pages in
> my original post, which you obviously didn't read in its entirety, since
> I also described the contradiction TWICE.

> Or, if you insist on being so ing obtuse, don't even bother.

A factory service manual in front of you and still can't follow the
instruction? Or was it which you obviously didn't read in its entirety.
Of the many Helm service manual, I've no problem setting the timing
even though English is my second language.

Re: [Fwd: Ignition timing question...?]
 

jim beam wrote:

> Matt Ion wrote:
>
>> jim beam wrote:
>>
>>> Matt Ion wrote:
>>>
>>>> jim beam wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> matt, if the honda factory manual says disconnect, then you
>>>>> disconnect. end of story. and who are you to judge 20 degrees?
>>>>> you've got two vacuum diaphragms iirc, both affect timing when
>>>>> connected, and their subsequent movement produces the correct
>>>>> result for that engine. it's real simple.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The thing is, the manual contradicts itself. If you actually follow
>>>> the steps in order, it's got you disconnecting the hoses twice (and
>>>> btw, only one is normally used, the other operates only when the
>>>> engine is cold), and it's got two different advance settings, one
>>>> saying for the A20A2 it should be 10, 15 or 20 degrees depending on
>>>> the exact variant, the other saying it should be 4 degrees for all
>>>> A20A2s.
>>>>
>>> which manual is that matt?
>>
>>
>>
>> The Honda factory manual. I put links to images of the manual pages
>> in my original post, which you obviously didn't read in its entirety,
>> since I also described the contradiction TWICE.
>>
>> Or, if you insist on being so ing obtuse, don't even bother.
>>
> 1. for a guy that wants free advice, you're not very adept at ensuring
> you get it, are you?

Well so far you haven't offered any, only snide comments and retarded
questions that you wouldn't have had to ask if you read the original post.

> 2. if you read your manual, you'd see that it's perfectly clear on which
> timing is for which series engine. read it. and the section on testing
> the vacuum settings is not relevant to setting the timing. again, the
> manual is very clear.

Really?

Step three has you removing the hoses, making sure vacuum is present,
then plugging them. Step 4 has you connecting an advance tester and
timing light. Step 5 then says to adjust the timing to the listed
settings, which for my engine is 20 degrees BTDC, according to the
chart. Nothing in there says to reconnect the hoses while checking this
advance, nothing indicates that this reading is made with vacuum present.

Step 6 then describes how to adjust the timing, step seven directs you
to re-tighten the locking bolt and re-check the timing... and then step
eight says to disconnect the outside hose (which was already
disconnected in step three). Step nine further directs to disconnect
and pinch off BOTH hoses that were already disconnected in step three,
and then states that the timing for my engine should be four degrees BTDC.

Maybe in a backward universe like yours this is "clear", but not here on
Earth.


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Re: [Fwd: Ignition timing question...?]
 

Burt S. wrote:

> "Matt Ion" <soundy@moltenimage.com> wrote in message news:Luu4f.213085$tl2.16414@pd7tw3no...
>
>
>>The thing is, the manual contradicts itself. If you actually follow the
>>steps in order, it's got you disconnecting the hoses twice (and btw,
>>only one is normally used, the other operates only when the engine is
>>cold), and it's got two different advance settings, one saying for the
>>A20A2 it should be 10, 15 or 20 degrees depending on the exact variant,
>>the other saying it should be 4 degrees for all A20A2s.
>
>
>>The Honda factory manual. I put links to images of the manual pages in
>>my original post, which you obviously didn't read in its entirety, since
>>I also described the contradiction TWICE.
>
>
>>Or, if you insist on being so ing obtuse, don't even bother.
>
>
> A factory service manual in front of you and still can't follow the
> instruction? Or was it which you obviously didn't read in its entirety.
> Of the many Helm service manual, I've no problem setting the timing
> even though English is my second language.

Okay... YOU follow the instruction, which tells you to disconnect and
plug the vacuum hoses, THEN tells you to check that the timing is at 20
degrees, then later in the same procedure tells you AGAIN to disconnect
and pinch off the SAME hoses, and check that the timing is 4 degrees.


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Re: [Fwd: Ignition timing question...?]
 

"Matt Ion" <soundy@moltenimage.com> wrote in message news:hSI4f.214185$1i.85038@pd7tw2no...
Images are re-cache for dialup users here (for 1 year)
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> Okay... YOU follow the instruction, which tells you to disconnect and
> plug the vacuum hoses, THEN tells you to check that the timing is at 20
> degrees, then later in the same procedure tells you AGAIN to disconnect
> and pinch off the SAME hoses, and check that the timing is 4 degrees.

The instruction to set the timing ended on step 7. If you go past step 7
you are in the section on testing the vacuum advance diaphragm and
distributor advance mechanism and is not relevant to setting the timing.

First, Jim *did not* asked an obtuse question since many of us use a
variety of factory service manual for a variety of year models.

For a bitter, hebetudinous guy that wants free advice I don't know why
I'm answering this question. Secondly, cross-post correctly.

Re: [Fwd: Ignition timing question...?]
 

Burt S. wrote:

> "Matt Ion" <soundy@moltenimage.com> wrote in message news:hSI4f.214185$1i.85038@pd7tw2no...
> Images are re-cache for dialup users here (for 1 year)
> http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/3...cord2442on.gif
> http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/690...cord2455de.gif
>
>
>>Okay... YOU follow the instruction, which tells you to disconnect and
>>plug the vacuum hoses, THEN tells you to check that the timing is at 20
>>degrees, then later in the same procedure tells you AGAIN to disconnect
>>and pinch off the SAME hoses, and check that the timing is 4 degrees.
>
>
> The instruction to set the timing ended on step 7. If you go past step 7
> you are in the section on testing the vacuum advance diaphragm and
> distributor advance mechanism and is not relevant to setting the timing.

Fine then. Is the timing set with the advance hose attached, or not?
The procedure up to step 7 would suggest no - the hose is disconnected
and plugged, and the timing set according to the chart. So you end up
at 20 degrees with the hose detached.

So if you go on testing, you're once again disconnected the hoses, but
now the timing is supposed to read four degrees?

> For a bitter, hebetudinous guy that wants free advice I don't know why
> I'm answering this question.

Bitter? Sure. I ask a simple question, and all I get back are two
posts suggesting I'm an idiot who can't read.

> Secondly, cross-post correctly.

Yeah, well, that was a typo the first time so I had to repost to the
second group separately.



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Re: [Fwd: Ignition timing question...?]
 

Burt S. wrote:

> "Matt Ion" <soundy@moltenimage.com> wrote in message news:hSI4f.214185$1i.85038@pd7tw2no...
> Images are re-cache for dialup users here (for 1 year)
> http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/3...cord2442on.gif
> http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/690...cord2455de.gif
>
>
>>Okay... YOU follow the instruction, which tells you to disconnect and
>>plug the vacuum hoses, THEN tells you to check that the timing is at 20
>>degrees, then later in the same procedure tells you AGAIN to disconnect
>>and pinch off the SAME hoses, and check that the timing is 4 degrees.
>
>
> The instruction to set the timing ended on step 7. If you go past step 7
> you are in the section on testing the vacuum advance diaphragm and
> distributor advance mechanism and is not relevant to setting the timing.

Fine then. Is the timing set with the advance hose attached, or not?
The procedure up to step 7 would suggest no - the hose is disconnected
and plugged, and the timing set according to the chart. So you end up
at 20 degrees with the hose detached.

So if you go on testing, you're once again disconnected the hoses, but
now the timing is supposed to read four degrees?

> For a bitter, hebetudinous guy that wants free advice I don't know why
> I'm answering this question.

Bitter? Sure. I ask a simple question, and all I get back are two
posts suggesting I'm an idiot who can't read.

> Secondly, cross-post correctly.

Yeah, well, that was a typo the first time so I had to repost to the
second group separately.



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Re: [Fwd: Ignition timing question...?]
 

"Matt Ion" <soundy@moltenimage.com> wrote in message news:ynS4f.218349$1i.74305@pd7tw2no...

> Fine then. Is the timing set with the advance hose attached, or not?
> The procedure up to step 7 would suggest no - the hose is disconnected
> and plugged, and the timing set according to the chart. So you end up
> at 20 degrees with the hose detached.

You obviously miss the point on step 3 that you are *not* suppose to
leave the hoses unplugged. A mechanic would unplug the hoses,
put his/her index finger over them and reinsert (plugged) them to their
original locations in a spit second. Yes, the hoses are supposed to be
attached.

> So if you go on testing, you're once again disconnected the hoses, but
> now the timing is supposed to read 4 degrees?

You are in the section on testing the vacuum advance diaphragm and
distributor advance mechanism and is not relevant to setting the timing.

Re: [Fwd: Ignition timing question...?]
 

"Matt Ion" <soundy@moltenimage.com> wrote in message news:ynS4f.218349$1i.74305@pd7tw2no...

> Fine then. Is the timing set with the advance hose attached, or not?
> The procedure up to step 7 would suggest no - the hose is disconnected
> and plugged, and the timing set according to the chart. So you end up
> at 20 degrees with the hose detached.

You obviously miss the point on step 3 that you are *not* suppose to
leave the hoses unplugged. A mechanic would unplug the hoses,
put his/her index finger over them and reinsert (plugged) them to their
original locations in a spit second. Yes, the hoses are supposed to be
attached.

> So if you go on testing, you're once again disconnected the hoses, but
> now the timing is supposed to read 4 degrees?

You are in the section on testing the vacuum advance diaphragm and
distributor advance mechanism and is not relevant to setting the timing.

Re: [Fwd: Ignition timing question...?]
 

Burt S. wrote:

> "Matt Ion" <soundy@moltenimage.com> wrote in message news:ynS4f.218349$1i.74305@pd7tw2no...
>
>
>>Fine then. Is the timing set with the advance hose attached, or not?
>>The procedure up to step 7 would suggest no - the hose is disconnected
>>and plugged, and the timing set according to the chart. So you end up
>>at 20 degrees with the hose detached.
>
>
> You obviously miss the point on step 3 that you are *not* suppose to
> leave the hoses unplugged.

Which point was that? Step three says "Disconnect the vacuum hose(s)
from the vacuum advance diaphragm and, while the engine idles, check
each hose for vacuumand plug the hose(s)." It does NOT say "replug" or
"plug in". So at best it's a typo. If that's the case, would it really
have been so hard to just say, "There's a typo in the manual; you're
supposed to plug the hose(s) back in."?


>>So if you go on testing, you're once again disconnected the hoses, but
>>now the timing is supposed to read 4 degrees?
>
>
> You are in the section on testing the vacuum advance diaphragm and
> distributor advance mechanism and is not relevant to setting the timing.

That isn't specified either. The section header says "Ignition Timing
Inspection and Setting". The entire procedure falls within that section.
Nothing says, "These first steps are just for checking the vacuum
advance, and these later steps are for setting the timing."

Can we at least agree that the whole procedure is, if nothing else,
unclear?

So I came in here to ask a simple question, and instead of a simple,
"here's how you do it" or "there's a typo there, this is what it should
say" I get on by jim beam, and when I object to that, I get on
by you. Have all the intelligent, HELPFUL people just gone away for the
weekend, or is the full moon bringing the assholes out of the woodwork?


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