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33 mpg 2004 Civic
I had some spare time to add up mileage logs from last year-
15156 miles on 456 gallons. Summer is about 2 miles better, winter 2 miles lower. Less highway driving in winter and 15% ethanol gasoline. I suspect cold may be a factor too. |
Re: 33 mpg 2004 Civic
rick++ wrote:
> I had some spare time to add up mileage logs from last year- > 15156 miles on 456 gallons. > Summer is about 2 miles better, winter 2 miles lower. > Less highway driving in winter and 15% ethanol gasoline. The ethanol in the gas would drop your mileage down by about 4.5% or about 1.5 mpg. > I suspect cold may be a factor too. |
Re: 33 mpg 2004 Civic
"rick++" <rick303@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:b2a23b5f-9d3f-480b-b168-5516fac872d7@m34g2000hsf.googlegroups.com... >I had some spare time to add up mileage logs from last year- > 15156 miles on 456 gallons. > Summer is about 2 miles better, winter 2 miles lower. > Less highway driving in winter and 15% ethanol gasoline. > I suspect cold may be a factor too. Just got back from an 1800 mile road trip in my 07 Accord V6 EX-L sedan. Mostly all interstate driving, got 32.3...not too shabby for a fine-handling car that powerful and comfortable... |
Re: 33 mpg 2004 Civic
"nullity" <0/0> wrote in message news:Lradnbw2bIg5-hPanZ2dnUVZ_sOrnZ2d@comcast.com... > Just got back from an 1800 mile road trip in my 07 Accord V6 EX-L sedan. > Mostly all interstate driving, got 32.3...not too shabby for a > fine-handling car that powerful and comfortable... So what is the seceret of your excellent mileage? The car is only rated 18/26 by EPA and Consumer Reports only managed 30 mpg in their highway driving (there highway driving is at relatively slow speeds). Ed |
Re: 33 mpg 2004 Civic
"C. E. White" <cewhite3@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:13osqn88b9bv438@corp.supernews.com... > > "nullity" <0/0> wrote in message > news:Lradnbw2bIg5-hPanZ2dnUVZ_sOrnZ2d@comcast.com... > >> Just got back from an 1800 mile road trip in my 07 Accord V6 EX-L sedan. >> Mostly all interstate driving, got 32.3...not too shabby for a >> fine-handling car that powerful and comfortable... > > So what is the seceret of your excellent mileage? The car is only rated > 18/26 by EPA and Consumer Reports only managed 30 mpg in their highway > driving (there highway driving is at relatively slow speeds). I can't speak for "nullity", but I my secret is cruise control. My '01 EX-V6 that currently has 197,00 miles on it, in summer driving, consistently gets around 29MPG on my 170 mile round trip commute (mostly highway). From Fishkill, NY, I-84 west, I-87 south, NJ/RT-17 south, some back roads to NJ/RT-3 east to office in Secaucus, NJ. Reverse to get home. On I-87 cruise is set to ~72. On I-84 cruise is set to ~62. On NJ/RT-17 just going with traffic. No hard starts or stops, just take it easy. Tires inflated a bit on the highside. |
Re: 33 mpg 2004 Civic
C. E. White wrote:
> "nullity" <0/0> wrote in message > news:Lradnbw2bIg5-hPanZ2dnUVZ_sOrnZ2d@comcast.com... > >> Just got back from an 1800 mile road trip in my 07 Accord V6 EX-L sedan. >> Mostly all interstate driving, got 32.3...not too shabby for a >> fine-handling car that powerful and comfortable... > > So what is the seceret of your excellent mileage? The car is only rated > 18/26 by EPA and Consumer Reports only managed 30 mpg in their highway > driving (there highway driving is at relatively slow speeds). > > Ed > > Hey, don't knock it! My 07 EX-L V6 6MT averaged 33 MPG on 6 trips from Louisiana to Florida between February 07 and May 07, which was a tad bit above sticker. Of course in October 07 it was declared a total loss and I wasn't about to pay sticker price and wait 3 months to take delivery of a 2008 EX-L V6 6MT coupe. Don't get me wrong, Honda makes a great car, but I NEVER pay sticker price for a vehicle. |
Re: 33 mpg 2004 Civic
"C. E. White" <cewhite3@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:13osqn88b9bv438@corp.supernews.com... > > "nullity" <0/0> wrote in message > news:Lradnbw2bIg5-hPanZ2dnUVZ_sOrnZ2d@comcast.com... > >> Just got back from an 1800 mile road trip in my 07 Accord V6 EX-L sedan. >> Mostly all interstate driving, got 32.3...not too shabby for a >> fine-handling car that powerful and comfortable... > > So what is the seceret of your excellent mileage? The car is only rated > 18/26 by EPA and Consumer Reports only managed 30 mpg in their highway > driving (there highway driving is at relatively slow speeds). > > Ed 2 PSI high on cold tire inflation, gentle starts, steady foot on throttle with cruise control when possible, anticipate slow downs so avoid needless braking, no extra junk in trunk...plus clean living and never raise my voice towards my wife.... |
Re: 33 mpg 2004 Civic
nullity wrote:
> "C. E. White" <cewhite3@mindspring.com> wrote in message > news:13osqn88b9bv438@corp.supernews.com... >> "nullity" <0/0> wrote in message >> news:Lradnbw2bIg5-hPanZ2dnUVZ_sOrnZ2d@comcast.com... >> >>> Just got back from an 1800 mile road trip in my 07 Accord V6 EX-L sedan. >>> Mostly all interstate driving, got 32.3...not too shabby for a >>> fine-handling car that powerful and comfortable... >> So what is the seceret of your excellent mileage? The car is only rated >> 18/26 by EPA and Consumer Reports only managed 30 mpg in their highway >> driving (there highway driving is at relatively slow speeds). >> >> Ed > > 2 PSI high on cold tire inflation, gentle starts, steady foot on throttle > with cruise control when possible, anticipate slow downs so avoid needless > braking, no extra junk in trunk...plus clean living and never raise my voice > towards my wife.... I try to keep my weight down, too. That increase fuel efficiency because the car does not have to do as much work. Jeff |
Re: 33 mpg 2004 Civic
On Wed, 16 Jan 2008 09:12:54 -0800 (PST), "rick++"
<rick303@hotmail.com> wrote: >I had some spare time to add up mileage logs from last year- >15156 miles on 456 gallons. >Summer is about 2 miles better, winter 2 miles lower. >Less highway driving in winter and 15% ethanol gasoline. >I suspect cold may be a factor too. My Civic is now 5 years old and since new is averaging 37 mpg (45mpg UK gallon). This local (rural not urban) and motorway use. Most important factors, light foot, keep speed to posted limits (70 mph motorway). At £1.03/litre (US$7.7/gallon) economy is paramount! |
Re: 33 mpg 2004 Civic
"Jeff" <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:ESvjj.38229$UX2.18608@trnddc08... > nullity wrote: >> "C. E. White" <cewhite3@mindspring.com> wrote in message >> news:13osqn88b9bv438@corp.supernews.com... >>> "nullity" <0/0> wrote in message >>> news:Lradnbw2bIg5-hPanZ2dnUVZ_sOrnZ2d@comcast.com... >>> >>> So what is the seceret of your excellent mileage? The car is only rated >>> 18/26 by EPA and Consumer Reports only managed 30 mpg in their highway >>> driving (there highway driving is at relatively slow speeds). >>> >>> Ed >> >> 2 PSI high on cold tire inflation, gentle starts, steady foot on throttle >> with cruise control when possible, anticipate slow downs so avoid >> needless braking, no extra junk in trunk...plus clean living and never >> raise my voice towards my wife.... > > I try to keep my weight down, too. That increase fuel efficiency because > the car does not have to do as much work. > > Jeff Keeping your weight down is always a good idea. I tend to leave my wife at home whenever possible. ;-) |
Re: 33 mpg 2004 Civic
Just Me wrote:
> > "Jeff" <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com> wrote in message > news:ESvjj.38229$UX2.18608@trnddc08... >> nullity wrote: >>> "C. E. White" <cewhite3@mindspring.com> wrote in message >>> news:13osqn88b9bv438@corp.supernews.com... >>>> "nullity" <0/0> wrote in message >>>> news:Lradnbw2bIg5-hPanZ2dnUVZ_sOrnZ2d@comcast.com... >>>> >>>> So what is the seceret of your excellent mileage? The car is only >>>> rated 18/26 by EPA and Consumer Reports only managed 30 mpg in their >>>> highway driving (there highway driving is at relatively slow speeds). >>>> >>>> Ed >>> >>> 2 PSI high on cold tire inflation, gentle starts, steady foot on >>> throttle with cruise control when possible, anticipate slow downs so >>> avoid needless braking, no extra junk in trunk...plus clean living >>> and never raise my voice towards my wife.... >> >> I try to keep my weight down, too. That increase fuel efficiency >> because the car does not have to do as much work. >> >> Jeff > Keeping your weight down is always a good idea. I tend to leave my wife > at home whenever possible. ;-) That's an even better idea. Jeff |
Re: 33 mpg 2004 Civic
Hmmm...excess baggage..lol
"Just Me" <justme@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:duSdncYqNft4cBLanZ2dnUVZ_gidnZ2d@comcast.com. .. > > "Jeff" <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com> wrote in message > news:ESvjj.38229$UX2.18608@trnddc08... >> nullity wrote: >>> "C. E. White" <cewhite3@mindspring.com> wrote in message >>> news:13osqn88b9bv438@corp.supernews.com... >>>> "nullity" <0/0> wrote in message >>>> news:Lradnbw2bIg5-hPanZ2dnUVZ_sOrnZ2d@comcast.com... >>>> >>>> So what is the seceret of your excellent mileage? The car is only rated >>>> 18/26 by EPA and Consumer Reports only managed 30 mpg in their highway >>>> driving (there highway driving is at relatively slow speeds). >>>> >>>> Ed >>> >>> 2 PSI high on cold tire inflation, gentle starts, steady foot on >>> throttle with cruise control when possible, anticipate slow downs so >>> avoid needless braking, no extra junk in trunk...plus clean living and >>> never raise my voice towards my wife.... >> >> I try to keep my weight down, too. That increase fuel efficiency because >> the car does not have to do as much work. >> >> Jeff > Keeping your weight down is always a good idea. I tend to leave my wife > at home whenever possible. ;-) |
Re: 33 mpg 2004 Civic
I found my original del sol window sticker it says 40mpg hwy but I've
never logged it officially. I also removed the spare tired never been used and the jack to save a few pounds for extra mileage gains.I was considering getting a 350z but gas prices are high. I'll stick with my 93 civic del sol for now only 60k orig miles, this car still turns heads. Could be because I drive naked with a sign on my head that says stare at me. But I really think its my OEM wing.Yeah baby I don't get it either just go with it. |
Re: 33 mpg 2004 Civic
Private Private wrote:
> I found my original del sol window sticker it says 40mpg hwy but I've > never logged it officially. I also removed the spare tired never been > used and the jack to save a few pounds for extra mileage gains. Gee, that's just stupid. You will eventually get a flat. They you are going to SOL. > I was > considering getting a 350z but gas prices are high. I'll stick with my > 93 civic del sol for now only 60k orig miles, this car still turns > heads. Could be because I drive naked with a sign on my head that says > stare at me. Unless they're laughing, I don't think so. > But I really think its my OEM wing.Yeah baby I don't get it > either just go with it. > |
Re: 33 mpg 2004 Civic
In the summer I get 40 mpg highway.
I just did a long road trip last weekend at an average temperature of -17C (0F) and got 37 mpg. 15% ethanol. |
Re: 33 mpg 2004 Civic
rick++ wrote:
> In the summer I get 40 mpg highway. > I just did a long road trip last weekend at an average > temperature of -17C (0F) and got 37 mpg. 15% ethanol. How much ethanol in the summer? The ethanol should have dropped the mileage down 4.5% or 2 mpg. Engines don't run as efficiently in the winter, in part because they take longer to warm up. Of course, the air conditioner usually isn't running nor is the sun roof down. And the gas is denser in the winter, because liquids contract in the cold. Jeff |
Re: 33 mpg 2004 Civic
>From: kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com (Jeff)
>Gee, that's just stupid. You will eventually get a flat. >They you are going to SOL. I'll be del SOL ..hah ,anyways,You could be right,but since the spare hasn't been used or needed since 1993 (that's 15 years btw),it's flat and worthless right now so I said what the hell I'll remove it along with the jack. When I get new rims/tires I'm gonna use the stock full size as a spare, but for now if I get a flat,it'll be cell phone or fix a flat for the remedy. Hey....why is that group of drivers laughing at me? The only time I ever got a flat was on both right side tires, the one spare would've been useless. Cell phone to the rescue. |
Re: 33 mpg 2004 Civic
Private Private wrote:
>> From: kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com (Jeff) >> Gee, that's just stupid. You will eventually get a flat. >> They you are going to SOL. > > I'll be del SOL ..hah ,anyways,You could be right,but since the spare > hasn't been used or needed since 1993 (that's 15 years btw),it's flat > and worthless right now so I said what the hell I'll remove it along > with the jack. When I get new rims/tires I'm gonna use the stock full > size as a spare, but for now if I get a flat,it'll be cell phone or fix > a flat for the remedy. If you have a flat spare, you can add air to it (tow trucks often have a tank of air) or a compressor. If you have a spare in your home, you can't use it. A cell phone doesn't do much good. Sure, you could try to stick the antenna in the hole, but it won't do much good. And if the tire has a tear, the people who come to help you will have to put a new tire on the rim before you can use the car. Fix a flat may not work either. > Hey....why is that group of drivers laughing at > me? > > The only time I ever got a flat was on both right side tires, the one > spare would've been useless. Cell phone to the rescue. Do whatever you want. |
Re: 33 mpg 2004 Civic
>From: kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com (Jeff)
>If you have a flat spare, you can add air >to it (tow trucks often have a tank of air) >or a compressor. >If you have a spare in your home, you can't >use it. Air compressors are everywhere and easy to find that's not an issue. What is an issue is my spare tire is (15) years old I'm not trusting a 15 yr old spare with my life @40-50+ mph. I'll get the spare replaced with a new one first before I refill the old one. But since I've never used or needed the spare in the last 15 years, yes I did say 15 years, you got that memorized,15 years, thank you, anyways I'll just use my full size alloy stock rim/tire when I get new replacement rim/tire set this year as a spare. And yes fix a flat is hit or miss , it didn't work when I got the double flat tires on the right side. I was going to use fix a flat on one tire and use the spare tire for the other but fix a flat didn't work . So I called my friend ,he picked me up I got new tires and went about my way.What saved me here in this instance? Cell phone, bingo. |
Re: 33 mpg 2004 Civic
On Tue, 22 Jan 2008 17:03:01 GMT, Jeff <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com>
wrote: >rick++ wrote: >> In the summer I get 40 mpg highway. >> I just did a long road trip last weekend at an average >> temperature of -17C (0F) and got 37 mpg. 15% ethanol. > >How much ethanol in the summer? The ethanol should have dropped the >mileage down 4.5% or 2 mpg. Engines don't run as efficiently in the >winter, in part because they take longer to warm up. Of course, the air >conditioner usually isn't running nor is the sun roof down. And the gas >is denser in the winter, because liquids contract in the cold. > >Jeff Gas is denser in winter and this contributes to fuel economy? I judge you missed out on 'science 101'. |
Re: 33 mpg 2004 Civic
Edward W. Thompson wrote:
> On Tue, 22 Jan 2008 17:03:01 GMT, Jeff <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com> > wrote: > >> rick++ wrote: >>> In the summer I get 40 mpg highway. >>> I just did a long road trip last weekend at an average >>> temperature of -17C (0F) and got 37 mpg. 15% ethanol. >> How much ethanol in the summer? The ethanol should have dropped the >> mileage down 4.5% or 2 mpg. Engines don't run as efficiently in the >> winter, in part because they take longer to warm up. Of course, the air >> conditioner usually isn't running nor is the sun roof down. And the gas >> is denser in the winter, because liquids contract in the cold. >> >> Jeff > > > Gas is denser in winter and this contributes to fuel economy? I judge > you missed out on 'science 101'. Actually, I taught science 101. If the gas is denser, that means that in every gallon or liter that is colder, you get more energy. More energy means you go farther. If the gas is 20 degrees F colder, it contains about 1% more energy or about a 0.4 mpg difference. If the gas is stored in an underground container, the gas temperature should be pretty constant. However, the gas can get colder or warming in transport and when going through the pipes in the ground. http://www.users.qwest.net/~taaaz/AZgas.html |
Re: 33 mpg 2004 Civic
i have an 03 civic lx coupe. in the summer i can get 46mpg by adding a
bottle of stp to the oil, keep the tire pressure at 34lbs and drive 65mph. |
Re: 33 mpg 2004 Civic
Timothy Stoughton wrote:
> i have an 03 civic lx coupe. in the summer i can get 46mpg by adding a > bottle of stp to the oil, keep the tire pressure at 34lbs and drive > 65mph. And you would get 46 mpg if you kept the tire pressure at 34 lbs and drove at 65 mpg and added a bottle of gas to the gasoline (i.e., the same volume of the STP). You'd save money if you didn't use STP. Jeff |
Re: 33 mpg 2004 Civic
On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:06:57 GMT, Jeff <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com>
wrote: >Edward W. Thompson wrote: >> On Tue, 22 Jan 2008 17:03:01 GMT, Jeff <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> rick++ wrote: >>>> In the summer I get 40 mpg highway. >>>> I just did a long road trip last weekend at an average >>>> temperature of -17C (0F) and got 37 mpg. 15% ethanol. >>> How much ethanol in the summer? The ethanol should have dropped the >>> mileage down 4.5% or 2 mpg. Engines don't run as efficiently in the >>> winter, in part because they take longer to warm up. Of course, the air >>> conditioner usually isn't running nor is the sun roof down. And the gas >>> is denser in the winter, because liquids contract in the cold. >>> >>> Jeff >> >> >> Gas is denser in winter and this contributes to fuel economy? I judge >> you missed out on 'science 101'. > >Actually, I taught science 101. If the gas is denser, that means that in >every gallon or liter that is colder, you get more energy. More energy >means you go farther. > >If the gas is 20 degrees F colder, it contains about 1% more energy or >about a 0.4 mpg difference. If the gas is stored in an underground >container, the gas temperature should be pretty constant. However, the >gas can get colder or warming in transport and when going through the >pipes in the ground. > >http://www.users.qwest.net/~taaaz/AZgas.html Haven't you moved the goal posts? You now are saying that the temperature of the gas from an underground storage tank will be essentially constant. We can agree upon that, so a gallon of fuel in the winter is essentially the same volume as that in the summer. Hence in energy terms a gallon of 'summer' fuel is the same as that of 'winter' fuel. Please explain why winter driving is more fuel efficient than summer driving. Winter driving is often more fuel efficient as the driver generally will operate his vehicle more conservatively due to road conditions. Where 'benefit' may occur at low ambient temperature is the air is more dense hence for a given volume, cylinder capacity, a greater charge of air can be ingested per stroke which will allow more fuel to be burned hence greater output. That is why intercoolers are used tp cool the air in turbo charged engines, in case you didn't know. This has nothing to do with increase in fuel efficiency, simply a potential increase in power for a given size of engine. |
Re: 33 mpg 2004 Civic
Jeff wrote:
> Edward W. Thompson wrote: >> On Tue, 22 Jan 2008 17:03:01 GMT, Jeff <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> rick++ wrote: >>>> In the summer I get 40 mpg highway. >>>> I just did a long road trip last weekend at an average >>>> temperature of -17C (0F) and got 37 mpg. 15% ethanol. >>> How much ethanol in the summer? The ethanol should have dropped the >>> mileage down 4.5% or 2 mpg. Engines don't run as efficiently in the >>> winter, in part because they take longer to warm up. Of course, the >>> air conditioner usually isn't running nor is the sun roof down. And >>> the gas is denser in the winter, because liquids contract in the cold. >>> >>> Jeff >> >> >> Gas is denser in winter and this contributes to fuel economy? I judge >> you missed out on 'science 101'. > > Actually, I taught science 101. If the gas is denser, that means that in > every gallon or liter that is colder, you get more energy. More energy > means you go farther. > > If the gas is 20 degrees F colder, it contains about 1% more energy or > about a 0.4 mpg difference. If the gas is stored in an underground > container, the gas temperature should be pretty constant. However, the > gas can get colder or warming in transport and when going through the > pipes in the ground. > > http://www.users.qwest.net/~taaaz/AZgas.html yes, colder is denser, but formulation changes seasonally. winter gas has more ethanol, and ethanol has a lower calorie content, hence lower mpg. |
Re: 33 mpg 2004 Civic
jim beam wrote:
> Jeff wrote: >> Edward W. Thompson wrote: >>> On Tue, 22 Jan 2008 17:03:01 GMT, Jeff <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> rick++ wrote: >>>>> In the summer I get 40 mpg highway. >>>>> I just did a long road trip last weekend at an average >>>>> temperature of -17C (0F) and got 37 mpg. 15% ethanol. >>>> How much ethanol in the summer? The ethanol should have dropped the >>>> mileage down 4.5% or 2 mpg. Engines don't run as efficiently in the >>>> winter, in part because they take longer to warm up. Of course, the >>>> air conditioner usually isn't running nor is the sun roof down. And >>>> the gas is denser in the winter, because liquids contract in the cold. >>>> >>>> Jeff >>> >>> >>> Gas is denser in winter and this contributes to fuel economy? I judge >>> you missed out on 'science 101'. >> >> Actually, I taught science 101. If the gas is denser, that means that >> in every gallon or liter that is colder, you get more energy. More >> energy means you go farther. >> >> If the gas is 20 degrees F colder, it contains about 1% more energy or >> about a 0.4 mpg difference. If the gas is stored in an underground >> container, the gas temperature should be pretty constant. However, the >> gas can get colder or warming in transport and when going through the >> pipes in the ground. >> >> http://www.users.qwest.net/~taaaz/AZgas.html > > > yes, colder is denser, but formulation changes seasonally. winter gas > has more ethanol, and ethanol has a lower calorie content, hence lower mpg. yes, I already pointed out that E15 has about 4.5% less energy that E0 gas. I don't know how much difference the cold temperature makes, because most tanks are underground. In theory, none, because the underground temperature is fairly constant usually about 10 to 15 C, but, the gasoline may be significantly colder when it is dumped from the trucks into the ground. And gasoline is not immediately heated or cooled in those huge underground tanks. It might take a couple of days until it reaches a steady temperature of about 15 C. But the gasoline might not last that long in the tank. In addition, the gasoline might be cooled as it is passing through the pipes in the ground. If the gas is around 0 C, when it warms up to 15 C (about 59 F), it will expand by about 1.5%. So the question is, what is the temperature at the point where the gasoline volume is measured as it is pumped? http://www.users.qwest.net/~taaaz/AZgas.html http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...hot-fuel_N.htm Jeff |
Re: 33 mpg 2004 Civic
Jeff wrote:
> jim beam wrote: >> Jeff wrote: >>> Edward W. Thompson wrote: >>>> On Tue, 22 Jan 2008 17:03:01 GMT, Jeff <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> rick++ wrote: >>>>>> In the summer I get 40 mpg highway. >>>>>> I just did a long road trip last weekend at an average >>>>>> temperature of -17C (0F) and got 37 mpg. 15% ethanol. >>>>> How much ethanol in the summer? The ethanol should have dropped the >>>>> mileage down 4.5% or 2 mpg. Engines don't run as efficiently in the >>>>> winter, in part because they take longer to warm up. Of course, the >>>>> air conditioner usually isn't running nor is the sun roof down. And >>>>> the gas is denser in the winter, because liquids contract in the cold. >>>>> >>>>> Jeff >>>> >>>> >>>> Gas is denser in winter and this contributes to fuel economy? I judge >>>> you missed out on 'science 101'. >>> >>> Actually, I taught science 101. If the gas is denser, that means that >>> in every gallon or liter that is colder, you get more energy. More >>> energy means you go farther. >>> >>> If the gas is 20 degrees F colder, it contains about 1% more energy >>> or about a 0.4 mpg difference. If the gas is stored in an underground >>> container, the gas temperature should be pretty constant. However, >>> the gas can get colder or warming in transport and when going through >>> the pipes in the ground. >>> >>> http://www.users.qwest.net/~taaaz/AZgas.html >> >> >> yes, colder is denser, but formulation changes seasonally. winter gas >> has more ethanol, and ethanol has a lower calorie content, hence lower >> mpg. > > yes, I already pointed out that E15 has about 4.5% less energy that E0 gas. > > I don't know how much difference the cold temperature makes, because > most tanks are underground. In theory, none, because the underground > temperature is fairly constant usually about 10 to 15 C, but, the > gasoline may be significantly colder when it is dumped from the trucks > into the ground. And gasoline is not immediately heated or cooled in > those huge underground tanks. It might take a couple of days until it > reaches a steady temperature of about 15 C. But the gasoline might not > last that long in the tank. In addition, the gasoline might be cooled as > it is passing through the pipes in the ground. If the gas is around 0 C, > when it warms up to 15 C (about 59 F), it will expand by about 1.5%. > > So the question is, what is the temperature at the point where the > gasoline volume is measured as it is pumped? > > http://www.users.qwest.net/~taaaz/AZgas.html > http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...hot-fuel_N.htm > > Jeff > > gasoline shouldn't be sold by volume, it should be sold by the therm, like natural gas. that way, there's no gaming of the energy content, no class action lawsuits over gas being sold short in the summer because it's warm, etc... |
Re: 33 mpg 2004 Civic
jim beam wrote:
<...> > gasoline shouldn't be sold by volume, it should be sold by the therm, > like natural gas. that way, there's no gaming of the energy content, no > class action lawsuits over gas being sold short in the summer because > it's warm, etc... That's an excellent idea. Plus, why should we pay the same tax on E10 as E0 when it has 3% less energy per gallon? Or E85, which has 35% less energy? It shouldn't be hard to determine the energy content of different gasolines and adjust them for the temperature and any additives, like the oxygenates (usually ethanol) that are added to keep the exhaust clean. Jeff |
Re: 33 mpg 2004 Civic
Jeff wrote:
> jim beam wrote: > > <...> > >> gasoline shouldn't be sold by volume, it should be sold by the therm, >> like natural gas. that way, there's no gaming of the energy content, >> no class action lawsuits over gas being sold short in the summer >> because it's warm, etc... > > That's an excellent idea. Plus, why should we pay the same tax on E10 as > E0 when it has 3% less energy per gallon? Or E85, which has 35% less > energy? better yet, why should we subsidize farmers to produce the stuff and give tax credits to the oilcos to use it? we're getting the hose /three/ ways, not just with lower gas mileage. > > It shouldn't be hard to determine the energy content of different > gasolines and adjust them for the temperature and any additives, just like natural gas. > like > the oxygenates (usually ethanol) that are added to keep the exhaust clean. that smells bogus. it adds to the "oxygen content" going in, but fwiu, since that oxygen atom is already bound in the molecule, it yields nothing to the reaction. adding a compound with nitrates would add to the reaction since they yield free oxygen, but that would add calorific value too, and that ain't gonna be allowed! |
Re: 33 mpg 2004 Civic
On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 19:09:58 -0800, jim beam
<spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote: >Jeff wrote: >> jim beam wrote: >>> Jeff wrote: >>>> Edward W. Thompson wrote: >>>>> On Tue, 22 Jan 2008 17:03:01 GMT, Jeff <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> rick++ wrote: >>>>>>> In the summer I get 40 mpg highway. >>>>>>> I just did a long road trip last weekend at an average >>>>>>> temperature of -17C (0F) and got 37 mpg. 15% ethanol. >>>>>> How much ethanol in the summer? The ethanol should have dropped the >>>>>> mileage down 4.5% or 2 mpg. Engines don't run as efficiently in the >>>>>> winter, in part because they take longer to warm up. Of course, the >>>>>> air conditioner usually isn't running nor is the sun roof down. And >>>>>> the gas is denser in the winter, because liquids contract in the cold. >>>>>> >>>>>> Jeff >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Gas is denser in winter and this contributes to fuel economy? I judge >>>>> you missed out on 'science 101'. >>>> >>>> Actually, I taught science 101. If the gas is denser, that means that >>>> in every gallon or liter that is colder, you get more energy. More >>>> energy means you go farther. >>>> >>>> If the gas is 20 degrees F colder, it contains about 1% more energy >>>> or about a 0.4 mpg difference. If the gas is stored in an underground >>>> container, the gas temperature should be pretty constant. However, >>>> the gas can get colder or warming in transport and when going through >>>> the pipes in the ground. >>>> >>>> http://www.users.qwest.net/~taaaz/AZgas.html >>> >>> >>> yes, colder is denser, but formulation changes seasonally. winter gas >>> has more ethanol, and ethanol has a lower calorie content, hence lower >>> mpg. >> >> yes, I already pointed out that E15 has about 4.5% less energy that E0 gas. >> >> I don't know how much difference the cold temperature makes, because >> most tanks are underground. In theory, none, because the underground >> temperature is fairly constant usually about 10 to 15 C, but, the >> gasoline may be significantly colder when it is dumped from the trucks >> into the ground. And gasoline is not immediately heated or cooled in >> those huge underground tanks. It might take a couple of days until it >> reaches a steady temperature of about 15 C. But the gasoline might not >> last that long in the tank. In addition, the gasoline might be cooled as >> it is passing through the pipes in the ground. If the gas is around 0 C, >> when it warms up to 15 C (about 59 F), it will expand by about 1.5%. >> >> So the question is, what is the temperature at the point where the >> gasoline volume is measured as it is pumped? >> >> http://www.users.qwest.net/~taaaz/AZgas.html >> http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...hot-fuel_N.htm >> >> Jeff >> >> > >gasoline shouldn't be sold by volume, it should be sold by the therm, >like natural gas. that way, there's no gaming of the energy content, no >class action lawsuits over gas being sold short in the summer because >it's warm, etc... It would still likely be metered by volume so you still have to either compensate for temperature or... not. The density of gas might vary by +/- 2% over any reasonable temperature range compared to it's density at 60F which is where it is theoretically sold. You get cheated a little in the summer and you cheat them a little in the winter, unless someone is intentionally heating it up. Energy content by mass varies +/- 4% around the nominal 44.4 Mj/kg. 10% ethanol knocks it down another 3.3%. Economists would argue that the market is already compensating for this variability (in temperature and energy content), but economists never compensate for the fact that the butcher has his finger on the scale. |
Re: 33 mpg 2004 Civic
Gordon McGrew wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 19:09:58 -0800, jim beam > <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote: > >> Jeff wrote: >>> jim beam wrote: >>>> Jeff wrote: >>>>> Edward W. Thompson wrote: >>>>>> On Tue, 22 Jan 2008 17:03:01 GMT, Jeff <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> rick++ wrote: >>>>>>>> In the summer I get 40 mpg highway. >>>>>>>> I just did a long road trip last weekend at an average >>>>>>>> temperature of -17C (0F) and got 37 mpg. 15% ethanol. >>>>>>> How much ethanol in the summer? The ethanol should have dropped the >>>>>>> mileage down 4.5% or 2 mpg. Engines don't run as efficiently in the >>>>>>> winter, in part because they take longer to warm up. Of course, the >>>>>>> air conditioner usually isn't running nor is the sun roof down. And >>>>>>> the gas is denser in the winter, because liquids contract in the cold. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jeff >>>>>> >>>>>> Gas is denser in winter and this contributes to fuel economy? I judge >>>>>> you missed out on 'science 101'. >>>>> Actually, I taught science 101. If the gas is denser, that means that >>>>> in every gallon or liter that is colder, you get more energy. More >>>>> energy means you go farther. >>>>> >>>>> If the gas is 20 degrees F colder, it contains about 1% more energy >>>>> or about a 0.4 mpg difference. If the gas is stored in an underground >>>>> container, the gas temperature should be pretty constant. However, >>>>> the gas can get colder or warming in transport and when going through >>>>> the pipes in the ground. >>>>> >>>>> http://www.users.qwest.net/~taaaz/AZgas.html >>>> >>>> yes, colder is denser, but formulation changes seasonally. winter gas >>>> has more ethanol, and ethanol has a lower calorie content, hence lower >>>> mpg. >>> yes, I already pointed out that E15 has about 4.5% less energy that E0 gas. >>> >>> I don't know how much difference the cold temperature makes, because >>> most tanks are underground. In theory, none, because the underground >>> temperature is fairly constant usually about 10 to 15 C, but, the >>> gasoline may be significantly colder when it is dumped from the trucks >>> into the ground. And gasoline is not immediately heated or cooled in >>> those huge underground tanks. It might take a couple of days until it >>> reaches a steady temperature of about 15 C. But the gasoline might not >>> last that long in the tank. In addition, the gasoline might be cooled as >>> it is passing through the pipes in the ground. If the gas is around 0 C, >>> when it warms up to 15 C (about 59 F), it will expand by about 1.5%. >>> >>> So the question is, what is the temperature at the point where the >>> gasoline volume is measured as it is pumped? >>> >>> http://www.users.qwest.net/~taaaz/AZgas.html >>> http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...hot-fuel_N.htm >>> >>> Jeff >>> >>> >> gasoline shouldn't be sold by volume, it should be sold by the therm, >> like natural gas. that way, there's no gaming of the energy content, no >> class action lawsuits over gas being sold short in the summer because >> it's warm, etc... > > It would still likely be metered by volume so you still have to either > compensate for temperature or... not. The density of gas might vary > by +/- 2% over any reasonable temperature range compared to it's > density at 60F which is where it is theoretically sold. You get > cheated a little in the summer and you cheat them a little in the > winter, unless someone is intentionally heating it up. > > Energy content by mass varies +/- 4% around the nominal 44.4 Mj/kg. > 10% ethanol knocks it down another 3.3%. i'll take another 7.3% increase in revenue please! if you sell food, you're a brewer or a public utility, you get slammed for that game. oilco's? no problem! > Economists would argue that > the market is already compensating for this variability (in > temperature and energy content), but economists never compensate for > the fact that the butcher has his finger on the scale. indeed. well said. |
Re: 33 mpg 2004 Civic
Gordon McGrew wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 19:09:58 -0800, jim beam > <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote: > >> Jeff wrote: >>> jim beam wrote: >>>> Jeff wrote: >>>>> Edward W. Thompson wrote: >>>>>> On Tue, 22 Jan 2008 17:03:01 GMT, Jeff <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> rick++ wrote: >>>>>>>> In the summer I get 40 mpg highway. >>>>>>>> I just did a long road trip last weekend at an average >>>>>>>> temperature of -17C (0F) and got 37 mpg. 15% ethanol. >>>>>>> How much ethanol in the summer? The ethanol should have dropped the >>>>>>> mileage down 4.5% or 2 mpg. Engines don't run as efficiently in the >>>>>>> winter, in part because they take longer to warm up. Of course, the >>>>>>> air conditioner usually isn't running nor is the sun roof down. And >>>>>>> the gas is denser in the winter, because liquids contract in the cold. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jeff >>>>>> >>>>>> Gas is denser in winter and this contributes to fuel economy? I judge >>>>>> you missed out on 'science 101'. >>>>> Actually, I taught science 101. If the gas is denser, that means that >>>>> in every gallon or liter that is colder, you get more energy. More >>>>> energy means you go farther. >>>>> >>>>> If the gas is 20 degrees F colder, it contains about 1% more energy >>>>> or about a 0.4 mpg difference. If the gas is stored in an underground >>>>> container, the gas temperature should be pretty constant. However, >>>>> the gas can get colder or warming in transport and when going through >>>>> the pipes in the ground. >>>>> >>>>> http://www.users.qwest.net/~taaaz/AZgas.html >>>> >>>> yes, colder is denser, but formulation changes seasonally. winter gas >>>> has more ethanol, and ethanol has a lower calorie content, hence lower >>>> mpg. >>> yes, I already pointed out that E15 has about 4.5% less energy that E0 gas. >>> >>> I don't know how much difference the cold temperature makes, because >>> most tanks are underground. In theory, none, because the underground >>> temperature is fairly constant usually about 10 to 15 C, but, the >>> gasoline may be significantly colder when it is dumped from the trucks >>> into the ground. And gasoline is not immediately heated or cooled in >>> those huge underground tanks. It might take a couple of days until it >>> reaches a steady temperature of about 15 C. But the gasoline might not >>> last that long in the tank. In addition, the gasoline might be cooled as >>> it is passing through the pipes in the ground. If the gas is around 0 C, >>> when it warms up to 15 C (about 59 F), it will expand by about 1.5%. >>> >>> So the question is, what is the temperature at the point where the >>> gasoline volume is measured as it is pumped? >>> >>> http://www.users.qwest.net/~taaaz/AZgas.html >>> http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...hot-fuel_N.htm >>> >>> Jeff >>> >>> >> gasoline shouldn't be sold by volume, it should be sold by the therm, >> like natural gas. that way, there's no gaming of the energy content, no >> class action lawsuits over gas being sold short in the summer because >> it's warm, etc... > > It would still likely be metered by volume so you still have to either > compensate for temperature or... not. The density of gas might vary > by +/- 2% over any reasonable temperature range compared to it's > density at 60F which is where it is theoretically sold. You get > cheated a little in the summer and you cheat them a little in the > winter, unless someone is intentionally heating it up. I am sure that if they are delivering 1% more gasoline, they are increasing the price by 3%. But, I am not sure that in the summer that they lower the price by that amount. > Energy content by mass varies +/- 4% around the nominal 44.4 Mj/kg. > 10% ethanol knocks it down another 3.3%. Economists would argue that > the market is already compensating for this variability (in > temperature and energy content), but economists never compensate for > the fact that the butcher has his finger on the scale. No, the market is not compensating for either of these. The competition is based on the volume of gas, not the energy content. I have yet to see a sign that says, "our gas has 44,000 kJ per kg." And I rarely see signs that tell you if there is any ethanol in gasoline (I only remember one at a Sunoco station). Most consumers are not aware that ethanol has less energy content that gasoline nor are they aware of the energy content of their gasoline or even if there is ethanol in their gas. So the market doesn't compensate for the different energy contents. A lot of people want to buy high octane gas to give their car a treat. People don't always make logical decisions. And, they don't gather info to make decisions. Jeff |
Re: 33 mpg 2004 Civic
On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 02:50:34 GMT, Jeff <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com>
wrote: >Gordon McGrew wrote: >> On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 19:09:58 -0800, jim beam >> <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote: >> >>> Jeff wrote: >>>> jim beam wrote: >>>>> Jeff wrote: >>>>>> Edward W. Thompson wrote: >>>>>>> On Tue, 22 Jan 2008 17:03:01 GMT, Jeff <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> rick++ wrote: >>>>>>>>> In the summer I get 40 mpg highway. >>>>>>>>> I just did a long road trip last weekend at an average >>>>>>>>> temperature of -17C (0F) and got 37 mpg. 15% ethanol. >>>>>>>> How much ethanol in the summer? The ethanol should have dropped the >>>>>>>> mileage down 4.5% or 2 mpg. Engines don't run as efficiently in the >>>>>>>> winter, in part because they take longer to warm up. Of course, the >>>>>>>> air conditioner usually isn't running nor is the sun roof down. And >>>>>>>> the gas is denser in the winter, because liquids contract in the cold. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jeff >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Gas is denser in winter and this contributes to fuel economy? I judge >>>>>>> you missed out on 'science 101'. >>>>>> Actually, I taught science 101. If the gas is denser, that means that >>>>>> in every gallon or liter that is colder, you get more energy. More >>>>>> energy means you go farther. >>>>>> >>>>>> If the gas is 20 degrees F colder, it contains about 1% more energy >>>>>> or about a 0.4 mpg difference. If the gas is stored in an underground >>>>>> container, the gas temperature should be pretty constant. However, >>>>>> the gas can get colder or warming in transport and when going through >>>>>> the pipes in the ground. >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.users.qwest.net/~taaaz/AZgas.html >>>>> >>>>> yes, colder is denser, but formulation changes seasonally. winter gas >>>>> has more ethanol, and ethanol has a lower calorie content, hence lower >>>>> mpg. >>>> yes, I already pointed out that E15 has about 4.5% less energy that E0 gas. >>>> >>>> I don't know how much difference the cold temperature makes, because >>>> most tanks are underground. In theory, none, because the underground >>>> temperature is fairly constant usually about 10 to 15 C, but, the >>>> gasoline may be significantly colder when it is dumped from the trucks >>>> into the ground. And gasoline is not immediately heated or cooled in >>>> those huge underground tanks. It might take a couple of days until it >>>> reaches a steady temperature of about 15 C. But the gasoline might not >>>> last that long in the tank. In addition, the gasoline might be cooled as >>>> it is passing through the pipes in the ground. If the gas is around 0 C, >>>> when it warms up to 15 C (about 59 F), it will expand by about 1.5%. >>>> >>>> So the question is, what is the temperature at the point where the >>>> gasoline volume is measured as it is pumped? >>>> >>>> http://www.users.qwest.net/~taaaz/AZgas.html >>>> http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...hot-fuel_N.htm >>>> >>>> Jeff >>>> >>>> >>> gasoline shouldn't be sold by volume, it should be sold by the therm, >>> like natural gas. that way, there's no gaming of the energy content, no >>> class action lawsuits over gas being sold short in the summer because >>> it's warm, etc... >> >> It would still likely be metered by volume so you still have to either >> compensate for temperature or... not. The density of gas might vary >> by +/- 2% over any reasonable temperature range compared to it's >> density at 60F which is where it is theoretically sold. You get >> cheated a little in the summer and you cheat them a little in the >> winter, unless someone is intentionally heating it up. > >I am sure that if they are delivering 1% more gasoline, they are >increasing the price by 3%. But, I am not sure that in the summer that >they lower the price by that amount. > >> Energy content by mass varies +/- 4% around the nominal 44.4 Mj/kg. >> 10% ethanol knocks it down another 3.3%. Economists would argue that >> the market is already compensating for this variability (in >> temperature and energy content), but economists never compensate for >> the fact that the butcher has his finger on the scale. > >No, the market is not compensating for either of these. The competition >is based on the volume of gas, not the energy content. I have yet to see >a sign that says, "our gas has 44,000 kJ per kg." And I rarely see signs >that tell you if there is any ethanol in gasoline (I only remember one >at a Sunoco station). The argument is that, if I own a gas station, I have to make $X in profit per month to make it worthwhile. All the other gas station owners are in the same boat. If we all get busted for selling hot/low energy gas and we have to reform our ways and price our fuel by the joule, we will adjust our prices so that we will still earn at least $X per month or higher if the market will bear. Not saying I buy into this fully, but there is a kernel of truth to this. >Most consumers are not aware that ethanol has less energy content that >gasoline nor are they aware of the energy content of their gasoline or >even if there is ethanol in their gas. Probably true. But I know it and what good does it do me? I still get my 10% ethanol gas at the same price as everyone else. In Illinois, you have no choice. I don't know if it provides any benefit to the gasoline industry either. If they are paying as much or more per gallon for ethanol as they do for gasoline, they aren't going to make any more money even if you are paying more per Mj. >So the market doesn't compensate for the different energy contents. Not directly, but it is not certain that the price would be any lower if they did. >A lot of people want to buy high octane gas to give their car a treat. >People don't always make logical decisions. And, they don't gather info >to make decisions. Hence, the Hummer. Kind of puts the low density gas thing in perspective. |
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