50 Litre Challenge
 

Hey all,

So Pars posted this article the other day:

http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/pw/50-litre.htm

It got me to thinking that maybe I could get outta my 98 civic, and into a
new one, and save some dough in the process. I know, I know, everyones gonna
say keep the civic. Here are the numbers.

Currently, I get about 35MPG (13km/L) in the city, and about 42 (15km/L) on
the highway. These are miles per IMPERIAL gallon (4.54 litres per gallon).
I drive about 35000kms (22000 miles) a year, at lets say an average of 13.
5km/L (38MPG). At $1.00 per litre of gas (today's price) I would pay $2600
per year in fuel in my 98 civic. So now, if I can get similar mileage to
what they claim in the above article, and average about say 18km/L, that
means I only spend $1900 per year, or a $700 savings. This assumes that gas
prices aren't going to rise, which I'm sure they will.

And what could I get for my 98 civic LX 5spd with air, cruise, power remote
keyless locks, in pretty damn good shape and 229000kms on it? I figure about
$7000-8000 canadian. I can get into a lease right now for 1.9%, $290 a month
give or take. Or I could slap my big down payment and it would only be about
$125 a month.

So I'd get a new car outta the deal, and it would only cost me about $70 a
month more than I am paying now, less repairs, which are starting to add up
on my civic.

I suppose insurance may be more on the newer model, but I'm in Manitoba, so
not too much of a concern.

Food for thought anyways, anyone have any comments?

t


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Re: 50 Litre Challenge
 

On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 04:20:05 GMT, "T L via CarKB.com"
<forum@CarKB.com> wrote:

>Hey all,
>
>So Pars posted this article the other day:
>
>http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/pw/50-litre.htm
>
>It got me to thinking that maybe I could get outta my 98 civic, and into a
>new one, and save some dough in the process. I know, I know, everyones gonna
>say keep the civic. Here are the numbers.
>
>Currently, I get about 35MPG (13km/L) in the city, and about 42 (15km/L) on
>the highway. These are miles per IMPERIAL gallon (4.54 litres per gallon).
>I drive about 35000kms (22000 miles) a year, at lets say an average of 13.
>5km/L (38MPG). At $1.00 per litre of gas (today's price) I would pay $2600
>per year in fuel in my 98 civic. So now, if I can get similar mileage to
>what they claim in the above article, and average about say 18km/L, that
>means I only spend $1900 per year, or a $700 savings. This assumes that gas
>prices aren't going to rise, which I'm sure they will.
>
>And what could I get for my 98 civic LX 5spd with air, cruise, power remote
>keyless locks, in pretty damn good shape and 229000kms on it? I figure about
>$7000-8000 canadian. I can get into a lease right now for 1.9%, $290 a month
>give or take. Or I could slap my big down payment and it would only be about
>$125 a month.
>
>So I'd get a new car outta the deal, and it would only cost me about $70 a
>month more than I am paying now, less repairs, which are starting to add up
>on my civic.
>
>I suppose insurance may be more on the newer model, but I'm in Manitoba, so
>not too much of a concern.
>
>Food for thought anyways, anyone have any comments?
>

Had they used the diesel golf, it would have been the clear winner.
Had it been a euro-spec diesel golf, with euro-spec diesel, they'd
still be trying to run it dry. BBC's top gear did a test in an Audi A8
last year, the one with the 4l V8 twin turbo engine, and it got 40mpg.
thats a HUGE car, and a HUGE engine. (talking 6 second 0-100km/hr
performance too). thats ona par with most of those there. Sooner
north america embrases diesel fuel as a modern fuel efficient
solution, and demands modern diesel fuel (current engine designs are
over 20 years old, due to the old fashioned and spec'd dieselfuel
currently on sale which doesn't work in moedrn efficient, quiet smooth
engines)

>t

Re: 50 Litre Challenge
 

"flobert" <nomail@here.NOT> wrote in message
news:471sg1lj5tefodtpgfj76u8ij97mgigs30@4ax.com...
> Had they used the diesel golf, it would have been the clear winner.

Well, if you're going to change the rules to include car *you* like, I'll
change them to.

Honda Insight, 40 litre tank, 3.3 litres/100km.

Re: 50 Litre Challenge
 

Hey Flo,

My impression from what i have read is that Diesel is a byproduct of the
refining process, and that the more diesel you make, the more gas you make.
I even remember reading that the ratio was like 3:1 Gas to Diesel, but can't
remember where.

So based on the above, if EVERYBODY switched to diesel, their mileage would
go up, but so would the price of Diesel. And I suppose the price of Gas
would come down if demand was less.

HMMMMM...

t

flobert wrote:
>>Hey all,
>>
>[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>>
>>Food for thought anyways, anyone have any comments?
>
>Had they used the diesel golf, it would have been the clear winner.
>Had it been a euro-spec diesel golf, with euro-spec diesel, they'd
>still be trying to run it dry. BBC's top gear did a test in an Audi A8
>last year, the one with the 4l V8 twin turbo engine, and it got 40mpg.
>thats a HUGE car, and a HUGE engine. (talking 6 second 0-100km/hr
>performance too). thats ona par with most of those there. Sooner
>north america embrases diesel fuel as a modern fuel efficient
>solution, and demands modern diesel fuel (current engine designs are
>over 20 years old, due to the old fashioned and spec'd dieselfuel
>currently on sale which doesn't work in moedrn efficient, quiet smooth
>engines)
>
>>t


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Re: 50 Litre Challenge
 

"T L via CarKB.com" <forum@CarKB.com> wrote in
news:53638D1E1FD0C@CarKB.com:

> Hey Flo,
>
> My impression from what i have read is that Diesel is a byproduct of
> the refining process,


EVERYTHING that is derived from a barrel of oil is a "byproduct of the
refining process".

http://www.iea.org/Textbase/stats/de...ces/petrol.htm


> and that the more diesel you make, the more gas
> you make. I even remember reading that the ratio was like 3:1 Gas to
> Diesel, but can't remember where.



No. The more of one, the less of the other. You can't make molecules from
no molecules.




>
> So based on the above, if EVERYBODY switched to diesel, their mileage
> would go up, but so would the price of Diesel. And I suppose the
> price of Gas would come down if demand was less.


Correct. Simple macro-economics.



--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: 50 Litre Challenge
 

"T L via CarKB.com" <forum@CarKB.com> wrote in message
news:535A679151D68@CarKB.com...
> Hey all,
>
> So Pars posted this article the other day:
>
> http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/pw/50-litre.htm
>
> It got me to thinking that maybe I could get outta my 98 civic,
> and into a
> new one, and save some dough in the process. I know, I know,
> everyones gonna
> say keep the civic. Here are the numbers.
>
> Currently, I get about 35MPG (13km/L) in the city, and about 42
> (15km/L) on
> the highway. These are miles per IMPERIAL gallon (4.54 litres
> per gallon).
> I drive about 35000kms (22000 miles) a year, at lets say an
> average of 13.
> 5km/L (38MPG). At $1.00 per litre of gas (today's price) I
> would pay $2600
> per year in fuel in my 98 civic. So now, if I can get similar
> mileage to
> what they claim in the above article, and average about say
> 18km/L, that
> means I only spend $1900 per year, or a $700 savings. This
> assumes that gas
> prices aren't going to rise, which I'm sure they will.
>
> And what could I get for my 98 civic LX 5spd with air, cruise,
> power remote
> keyless locks, in pretty damn good shape and 229000kms on it?
> I figure about
> $7000-8000 canadian. I can get into a lease right now for
> 1.9%, $290 a month
> give or take. Or I could slap my big down payment and it would
> only be about
> $125 a month.

I am not sure that you could get that much... more like 5k Cnd,
perhaps 5.5k. But if you can get 8k, the math seems to add up.

Go for it!

Re: 50 Litre Challenge
 

On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 17:29:06 -0400, "Steve Bigelow"
<stevebigelowXXX@rogers.com> wrote:

>
>"flobert" <nomail@here.NOT> wrote in message
>news:471sg1lj5tefodtpgfj76u8ij97mgigs30@4ax.com.. .
>> Had they used the diesel golf, it would have been the clear winner.
>
>Well, if you're going to change the rules to include car *you* like, I'll
>change them to.

Well, my point was, they stuck to only petrol cars, and not the diesel
versions (there are diesel versions of both the focus and the golf,
and a sizable chunk of GM's european cars are diesel-powered.) Diesel
cars provide significantly better mileage. The A8 was an example of
that - it returned the same mileage as many of the smaller cars, and
its a huge tank, with a large engine. VW also make a lupo (2 sizes
below the golf) and have a diesel version of that which will get
somewhere in the upper 60's for mpg.


>
>Honda Insight, 40 litre tank, 3.3 litres/100km.

Actually, found an article in usa today aboutt he lupo - called the
lupo 3L, it uses 3l of fuel per 100km. Was printed in 1999
http://www.usatoday.com/money/consum...w/mauto497.htm
http://www.ecoworld.org/Home/articles2.cfm?TID=285 is een more
complimentary and focusses more on the economy thing.



>

Re: 50 Litre Challenge
 

Even the dealer said wholesale around 6000-7500 depending on what needed to
be done to it. It needs rear brakes (I have them, just haven't actually got
around to it yet), and parking brake cables. Also needs a windshield, but
everything else is up to snuff.

We'll see. The dealer is now talking discounts on 05s, so I may even be able
to do better than I originally thought. Especially if I sell my car
privately.

t

Frank wrote:
>> Hey all,
>>
>[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>> only be about
>> $125 a month.
>
>I am not sure that you could get that much... more like 5k Cnd,
>perhaps 5.5k. But if you can get 8k, the math seems to add up.
>
>Go for it!
>
>


--
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Re: 50 Litre Challenge
 

Tegger, what do you think of the mileage claims in this article? Attainable?
how much of a wuss would I have to be while driving in order to achieve these
numbers of 1022km / 50 litres of gas?

Also, do the mileage numbers from my 98 make sense?

And ya ok so what I said is kinda redundant. But there has to be a certain
ratio of gas/diesel/other byproducts that is more efficient to produce then
just diesel. Having a hard time wording this, but essentially what I
remember reading was from the local Co-op gas retailer. They talked about
having to start up another chain of gas stations to use up the excess
gasoline produced since their regular Co-Op stations were using a lot of
diesel. In other words they had an excess of gasoline, and needed to find a
market for it.

t

TeGGeR® wrote:
>> Hey Flo,
>>
>> My impression from what i have read is that Diesel is a byproduct of
>> the refining process,
>
>EVERYTHING that is derived from a barrel of oil is a "byproduct of the
>refining process".
>
>http://www.iea.org/Textbase/stats/de...ces/petrol.htm
>
>> and that the more diesel you make, the more gas
>> you make. I even remember reading that the ratio was like 3:1 Gas to
>> Diesel, but can't remember where.
>
>No. The more of one, the less of the other. You can't make molecules from
>no molecules.
>
>> So based on the above, if EVERYBODY switched to diesel, their mileage
>> would go up, but so would the price of Diesel. And I suppose the
>> price of Gas would come down if demand was less.
>
>Correct. Simple macro-economics.
>


--
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Re: 50 Litre Challenge
 

I dunno man, I live in Winnipeg. When its -40, diesels are just damn
annoying. Making a racket (yes even the newer ones) and all sorts of smoking
and whatnot. A gas car just doesn't do that up here.

If I was to venture to a diesel it woudl be for only a few reasons.

1. I needed a truck. No way am I putting gas into a V8.
2. I wanted to run veggie oil. Of course, in Winnipeg this is harder than
it sounds.

where you from flo?

t

flobert wrote:
>>> Had they used the diesel golf, it would have been the clear winner.
>>
>>Well, if you're going to change the rules to include car *you* like, I'll
>>change them to.
>
>Well, my point was, they stuck to only petrol cars, and not the diesel
>versions (there are diesel versions of both the focus and the golf,
>and a sizable chunk of GM's european cars are diesel-powered.) Diesel
>cars provide significantly better mileage. The A8 was an example of
>that - it returned the same mileage as many of the smaller cars, and
>its a huge tank, with a large engine. VW also make a lupo (2 sizes
>below the golf) and have a diesel version of that which will get
>somewhere in the upper 60's for mpg.
>
>>Honda Insight, 40 litre tank, 3.3 litres/100km.
>
>Actually, found an article in usa today aboutt he lupo - called the
>lupo 3L, it uses 3l of fuel per 100km. Was printed in 1999
>http://www.usatoday.com/money/consum...w/mauto497.htm
>http://www.ecoworld.org/Home/articles2.cfm?TID=285 is een more
>complimentary and focusses more on the economy thing.


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Re: 50 Litre Challenge
 

On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 04:56:41 GMT, "T L via CarKB.com"
<forum@CarKB.com> wrote:

>I dunno man, I live in Winnipeg. When its -40, diesels are just damn
>annoying. Making a racket (yes even the newer ones) and all sorts of smoking
>and whatnot. A gas car just doesn't do that up here.

heh, you're talking , still, about old diesel engines. the ones sold
right now, in the US, by ford, Gm, W etc. are all diesel engines that
are about 15-20 years behind the ones in europe. The racket is
generally termed 'clatter', and modern direct injection diesels don't,
same with the smoke (the smoke is unburnt fuel, DI diesels don't have
but a tiny amount, if any most of the time). at 40 below, most engines
tend to need a heater, no? Admitadly, diesels moreso, but once its
gong, its going..I may be from way up north, but i still try and keep
the Fahrenheit scale in the positive at all times (right now, i do
wish it'd stay in double figures though)

>
>If I was to venture to a diesel it woudl be for only a few reasons.
>
>1. I needed a truck. No way am I putting gas into a V8.
>2. I wanted to run veggie oil. Of course, in Winnipeg this is harder than
>it sounds.

most diesel engines you can run veggie oil in straight off (after its
straigned, of course) - saw em do it in an old volvo diesel estate.
just needed the engine priming, or whatever its called after they
drained the diesel out.

>
>where you from flo?

me? north west england. spent my days driving up and across the welsh
mountains, the pennine mountains, the lake district, and if i was
lucky, a days run down to london and back (450mile round trip) in my
youth. stopped so much with the mountains through, after i 'fell off'
one once
backwards
at about 60mph
in an early 70s escort
wearing a lap belt


(lucjily the racing cge took most of the impact)
((It was a rally car!!))
(((In a race, for those that think we were being reckless)))
>
>t
>
>flobert wrote:
>>>> Had they used the diesel golf, it would have been the clear winner.
>>>
>>>Well, if you're going to change the rules to include car *you* like, I'll
>>>change them to.
>>
>>Well, my point was, they stuck to only petrol cars, and not the diesel
>>versions (there are diesel versions of both the focus and the golf,
>>and a sizable chunk of GM's european cars are diesel-powered.) Diesel
>>cars provide significantly better mileage. The A8 was an example of
>>that - it returned the same mileage as many of the smaller cars, and
>>its a huge tank, with a large engine. VW also make a lupo (2 sizes
>>below the golf) and have a diesel version of that which will get
>>somewhere in the upper 60's for mpg.
>>
>>>Honda Insight, 40 litre tank, 3.3 litres/100km.
>>
>>Actually, found an article in usa today aboutt he lupo - called the
>>lupo 3L, it uses 3l of fuel per 100km. Was printed in 1999
>>http://www.usatoday.com/money/consum...w/mauto497.htm
>>http://www.ecoworld.org/Home/articles2.cfm?TID=285 is een more
>>complimentary and focusses more on the economy thing.

Re: 50 Litre Challenge
 

lol, well when it gets REALLY cold here, diesel turns into a jelly type
substance. its pretty funny actually.

I guess the other side of the coin is that only VW and Audi pretty much offer
diesels in passenger cars here in Canada. I don't want to drive a VW, and
even if I wanted an Audi/VW, I couldn't afford it. They too espensive here.

t

flobert wrote:
>>I dunno man, I live in Winnipeg. When its -40, diesels are just damn
>>annoying. Making a racket (yes even the newer ones) and all sorts of smoking
>>and whatnot. A gas car just doesn't do that up here.
>
>heh, you're talking , still, about old diesel engines. the ones sold
>right now, in the US, by ford, Gm, W etc. are all diesel engines that
>are about 15-20 years behind the ones in europe. The racket is
>generally termed 'clatter', and modern direct injection diesels don't,
>same with the smoke (the smoke is unburnt fuel, DI diesels don't have
>but a tiny amount, if any most of the time). at 40 below, most engines
>tend to need a heater, no? Admitadly, diesels moreso, but once its
>gong, its going..I may be from way up north, but i still try and keep
>the Fahrenheit scale in the positive at all times (right now, i do
>wish it'd stay in double figures though)
>
>>If I was to venture to a diesel it woudl be for only a few reasons.
>>
>>1. I needed a truck. No way am I putting gas into a V8.
>>2. I wanted to run veggie oil. Of course, in Winnipeg this is harder than
>>it sounds.
>
>most diesel engines you can run veggie oil in straight off (after its
>straigned, of course) - saw em do it in an old volvo diesel estate.
>just needed the engine priming, or whatever its called after they
>drained the diesel out.
>
>>where you from flo?
>
>me? north west england. spent my days driving up and across the welsh
>mountains, the pennine mountains, the lake district, and if i was
>lucky, a days run down to london and back (450mile round trip) in my
>youth. stopped so much with the mountains through, after i 'fell off'
>one once
>backwards
>at about 60mph
>in an early 70s escort
>wearing a lap belt
>
>(lucjily the racing cge took most of the impact)
>((It was a rally car!!))
>(((In a race, for those that think we were being reckless)))
>
>>t
>>
>[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>>>http://www.ecoworld.org/Home/articles2.cfm?TID=285 is een more
>>>complimentary and focusses more on the economy thing.


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Re: 50 Litre Challenge
 

In article <jkdtg113k47jj50qj5n7gn75rc1pug5ru5@4ax.com>, flobert <nomail@here.NOT> writes:
>
> me? north west england. spent my days driving up and across the welsh
> mountains, the pennine mountains, the lake district, and if i was
> lucky, a days run down to london and back (450mile round trip) in my
> youth. stopped so much with the mountains through, after i 'fell off'
> one once
> backwards
> at about 60mph
> in an early 70s escort
> wearing a lap belt

Heh. Some of those roads in the Lakes feel like you're falling off
backwards even when you're driving normally. I remember going over
Hardknot Pass (a 1:3 grade) - we couldn't see the road in front of us
over the hood of the car, and had to steer by the boulders on either
side.

You knew another car was coming the other way when the sheep came
stampeding down the (single-lane) road toward you...

Beautiful views, though, and there're the ruins of a Roman fort at
the top.

Here in the US, of course, a 450-mile round trip doesn't get you
much. My wife and I make one every month to get our hair done, and
our stylist has another customer who has a 600-mile round-trip drive,
though I don't believe he comes every month.

ObHonda: On our last trip, a couple of months back, we met up with
my stepdaughter there, who was coming from college for a visit, and
I drove her 1990 Accord LX back for her. The odometer shows 196K
miles, but the speed sensor failed some months back, so it's well
over 200K now. Pretty beaten up, but it's still easy to break the
tires away from the pavement when the light changes.

--
Michael Wojcik michael.wojcik@microfocus.com

Do we have boyfriends? We are interested in delicious food and sweets.
And tiny animals like the cat. -- Naoko Yamano

Re: 50 Litre Challenge
 

On 26 Aug 2005 15:00:25 GMT, mwojcik@newsguy.com (Michael Wojcik)
wrote:

>
>In article <jkdtg113k47jj50qj5n7gn75rc1pug5ru5@4ax.com>, flobert <nomail@here.NOT> writes:
>>
>> me? north west england. spent my days driving up and across the welsh
>> mountains, the pennine mountains, the lake district, and if i was
>> lucky, a days run down to london and back (450mile round trip) in my
>> youth. stopped so much with the mountains through, after i 'fell off'
>> one once
>> backwards
>> at about 60mph
>> in an early 70s escort
>> wearing a lap belt
>
>Heh. Some of those roads in the Lakes feel like you're falling off
>backwards even when you're driving normally. I remember going over
>Hardknot Pass (a 1:3 grade) - we couldn't see the road in front of us
>over the hood of the car, and had to steer by the boulders on either
>side.
>
>You knew another car was coming the other way when the sheep came
>stampeding down the (single-lane) road toward you...
>
>Beautiful views, though, and there're the ruins of a Roman fort at
>the top.
>
>Here in the US, of course, a 450-mile round trip doesn't get you
>much. My wife and I make one every month to get our hair done, and
>our stylist has another customer who has a 600-mile round-trip drive,
>though I don't believe he comes every month.

Aye, my wife does a job collecting orders for a distribution company -
she does about 300 miles a day, just driving between all her stores -
comapny van and gas mind (but a 96 T+C whos transmission is going
again - hope they'll replace it with an Ody)

>
>ObHonda: On our last trip, a couple of months back, we met up with
>my stepdaughter there, who was coming from college for a visit, and
>I drove her 1990 Accord LX back for her. The odometer shows 196K
>miles, but the speed sensor failed some months back, so it's well
>over 200K now. Pretty beaten up, but it's still easy to break the
>tires away from the pavement when the light changes.

My civics the same. 225k miles, or something on it right now (hard to
tell, wife drives it to work on mondays, leaves it there, and takes
the van, then drives the car back on fridays) Still gives people a
shock with the peppyness (despite having met a few deer head on)

Re: 50 Litre Challenge
 

T L via CarKB.com <forum@CarKB.com> wrote in message
news:536731C5FC490@CarKB.com...
>the local Co-op gas retailer. They talked about
> having to start up another chain of gas stations to use up the excess
> gasoline produced since their regular Co-Op stations were using a lot of
> diesel. In other words they had an excess of gasoline, and needed to find a
> market for it.
>
> t
http://science.howstuffworks.com/oil-refining4.htm says about 40% of a barrel of
crude is gasoline. But I imagine that depends on the grade of crude.
The next page shows that you can make diesel and other heavy components into
gasoline by 'cracking' it, or more diesel by unification. So I'd say what your
co-op said is partly true, but represents a limitation of the refinery they
have.