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Re: 90 civic will not start when hot
Jonathan Upright <qaesar1@carolina.rr.com> wrote in
news:4yDze.768$XA.10271@twister.southeast.rr.com: > Michael Pardee wrote: >> "Eric" <say.no@spam.now> wrote in message >> news:42CEDA5D.257243EB@spam.now... >> >>>Michael Pardee wrote: >>> >>>>I'd bet the vulnerability is still there. The basic problem is they >>>>mount heavy items (the relays themselves) on circuit boards using >>>>the solder for >>>>the mechanical support, then mount the whole thing to the car >>>>chassis so the road and engine vibration can fatigue the solder. A >>>>lot of mfrs do it because the problem rarely shows up within the >>>>warranty period. >>>> >>>>Mike >>> >>>Hmmm, wouldn't a potential solution be to soft mount it to the >>>chassis with >>>some rubber bushings? >>> >>>Eric >> >> >> I'd sure think so. Even if it only softened the vibrations it could >> make a big difference. >> >> Mike >> >> > Or do what I did, leave it dangling under the dash...it works fine, > and it's readily accessible if it ever fails again. ;-) > > Jonathan Leave it dangling to short out something,or to flex or abrade the wires for another type of failure. Or a under-dash fire. Bolt it back down after resoldering,and it will be fine.Probably last longer than the rest of the car. -- Jim Yanik jyanik at kua.net |
Re: 90 civic will not start when hot
jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in
news:mbCdneydi_AghlLfRVn-vQ@speakeasy.net: > Michael Pardee wrote: >> "Eric" <say.no@spam.now> wrote in message >> news:42CEDA5D.257243EB@spam.now... >> >>>Michael Pardee wrote: >>> >>>>I'd bet the vulnerability is still there. The basic problem is they >>>>mount heavy items (the relays themselves) on circuit boards using >>>>the solder for >>>>the mechanical support, then mount the whole thing to the car >>>>chassis so the road and engine vibration can fatigue the solder. A >>>>lot of mfrs do it because the problem rarely shows up within the >>>>warranty period. >>>> >>>>Mike >>> >>>Hmmm, wouldn't a potential solution be to soft mount it to the >>>chassis with >>>some rubber bushings? >>> >>>Eric >> >> >> I'd sure think so. Even if it only softened the vibrations it could >> make a big difference. >> >> Mike >> >> > i don't think it's the g's from the road that are the deal - there's > more shock from the contacts opening & closing. much more likely > thermal fatigue from the relay heating up & cooling down. And/or mechanical stress from the relay action.(relay frame and contacts flexing under operation,along with thermal stress) > those > things run much too hot imo. but ventilating them leaves them open to > crud accumulation, so you can't win. best design would be something > with mechanical [screw] mountings for the relay chassis, not the > soldered ones like present, a thermal conduction path from the relay > chassis to the external mounting, and restrict solder only to the > electricals. but that would likely cost double the current > arrangement, so given that this car is 15 years old, and a new relay > will likely last another 15, it's not /that/ big a deal to buy a new > one & forget about it. > > Exactly. -- Jim Yanik jyanik at kua.net |
Re: 90 civic will not start when hot
jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in
news:mbCdneydi_AghlLfRVn-vQ@speakeasy.net: > Michael Pardee wrote: >> "Eric" <say.no@spam.now> wrote in message >> news:42CEDA5D.257243EB@spam.now... >> >>>Michael Pardee wrote: >>> >>>>I'd bet the vulnerability is still there. The basic problem is they >>>>mount heavy items (the relays themselves) on circuit boards using >>>>the solder for >>>>the mechanical support, then mount the whole thing to the car >>>>chassis so the road and engine vibration can fatigue the solder. A >>>>lot of mfrs do it because the problem rarely shows up within the >>>>warranty period. >>>> >>>>Mike >>> >>>Hmmm, wouldn't a potential solution be to soft mount it to the >>>chassis with >>>some rubber bushings? >>> >>>Eric >> >> >> I'd sure think so. Even if it only softened the vibrations it could >> make a big difference. >> >> Mike >> >> > i don't think it's the g's from the road that are the deal - there's > more shock from the contacts opening & closing. much more likely > thermal fatigue from the relay heating up & cooling down. And/or mechanical stress from the relay action.(relay frame and contacts flexing under operation,along with thermal stress) > those > things run much too hot imo. but ventilating them leaves them open to > crud accumulation, so you can't win. best design would be something > with mechanical [screw] mountings for the relay chassis, not the > soldered ones like present, a thermal conduction path from the relay > chassis to the external mounting, and restrict solder only to the > electricals. but that would likely cost double the current > arrangement, so given that this car is 15 years old, and a new relay > will likely last another 15, it's not /that/ big a deal to buy a new > one & forget about it. > > Exactly. -- Jim Yanik jyanik at kua.net |
Re: 90 civic will not start when hot
"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in message
news:Xns968DCCE6B9162tegger@207.14.113.17... > "Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in > news:uqCdneTi1ZJ3nFLfRVn-2A@sedona.net: > >> "Eric" <say.no@spam.now> wrote in message >> news:42CEDA5D.257243EB@spam.now... >>> Hmmm, wouldn't a potential solution be to soft mount it to the >>> chassis with >>> some rubber bushings? >>> >>> Eric >> >> I'd sure think so. Even if it only softened the vibrations it could >> make a big difference. >> > > > It sounds plausible, but too simple. With all the development Honda and > other makers do every minute of every working day, why wouldn't they have > already done this themselves? It would just be a rubber grommet. > > > -- > TeGGeR® > > The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ > www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ Just a guess, but the relays probably last long enough to suit them. I have to remind myself the MY 2005 is almost over, and when we see a '95 with a bad main relay it is a ten year old car. Jim has a point - resolder and remount it, and probably get another decade or more life out of it. I remember when it was cockeyed optimism to expect 15 years out of an engine, so maybe I shouldn't complain. Mike |
Re: 90 civic will not start when hot
"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in message
news:Xns968DCCE6B9162tegger@207.14.113.17... > "Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in > news:uqCdneTi1ZJ3nFLfRVn-2A@sedona.net: > >> "Eric" <say.no@spam.now> wrote in message >> news:42CEDA5D.257243EB@spam.now... >>> Hmmm, wouldn't a potential solution be to soft mount it to the >>> chassis with >>> some rubber bushings? >>> >>> Eric >> >> I'd sure think so. Even if it only softened the vibrations it could >> make a big difference. >> > > > It sounds plausible, but too simple. With all the development Honda and > other makers do every minute of every working day, why wouldn't they have > already done this themselves? It would just be a rubber grommet. > > > -- > TeGGeR® > > The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ > www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ Just a guess, but the relays probably last long enough to suit them. I have to remind myself the MY 2005 is almost over, and when we see a '95 with a bad main relay it is a ten year old car. Jim has a point - resolder and remount it, and probably get another decade or more life out of it. I remember when it was cockeyed optimism to expect 15 years out of an engine, so maybe I shouldn't complain. Mike |
Re: 90 civic will not start when hot
"jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
news:mbCdneydi_AghlLfRVn-vQ@speakeasy.net... > Michael Pardee wrote: >> "Eric" <say.no@spam.now> wrote in message >> news:42CEDA5D.257243EB@spam.now... >> >>>Michael Pardee wrote: >>> >>>>I'd bet the vulnerability is still there. The basic problem is they >>>>mount >>>>heavy items (the relays themselves) on circuit boards using the solder >>>>for >>>>the mechanical support, then mount the whole thing to the car chassis so >>>>the road and engine vibration can fatigue the solder. A lot of mfrs do >>>>it >>>>because the problem rarely shows up within the warranty period. >>>> >>>>Mike >>> >>>Hmmm, wouldn't a potential solution be to soft mount it to the chassis >>>with >>>some rubber bushings? >>> >>>Eric >> >> >> I'd sure think so. Even if it only softened the vibrations it could make >> a big difference. >> >> Mike > i don't think it's the g's from the road that are the deal - there's more > shock from the contacts opening & closing. much more likely thermal > fatigue from the relay heating up & cooling down. those things run much > too hot imo. but ventilating them leaves them open to crud accumulation, > so you can't win. best design would be something with mechanical [screw] > mountings for the relay chassis, not the soldered ones like present, a > thermal conduction path from the relay chassis to the external mounting, > and restrict solder only to the electricals. but that would likely cost > double the current arrangement, so given that this car is 15 years old, > and a new relay will likely last another 15, it's not /that/ big a deal to > buy a new one & forget about it. > Good points, all of them. I hadn't considered the heat aspect. Mike |
Re: 90 civic will not start when hot
"jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
news:mbCdneydi_AghlLfRVn-vQ@speakeasy.net... > Michael Pardee wrote: >> "Eric" <say.no@spam.now> wrote in message >> news:42CEDA5D.257243EB@spam.now... >> >>>Michael Pardee wrote: >>> >>>>I'd bet the vulnerability is still there. The basic problem is they >>>>mount >>>>heavy items (the relays themselves) on circuit boards using the solder >>>>for >>>>the mechanical support, then mount the whole thing to the car chassis so >>>>the road and engine vibration can fatigue the solder. A lot of mfrs do >>>>it >>>>because the problem rarely shows up within the warranty period. >>>> >>>>Mike >>> >>>Hmmm, wouldn't a potential solution be to soft mount it to the chassis >>>with >>>some rubber bushings? >>> >>>Eric >> >> >> I'd sure think so. Even if it only softened the vibrations it could make >> a big difference. >> >> Mike > i don't think it's the g's from the road that are the deal - there's more > shock from the contacts opening & closing. much more likely thermal > fatigue from the relay heating up & cooling down. those things run much > too hot imo. but ventilating them leaves them open to crud accumulation, > so you can't win. best design would be something with mechanical [screw] > mountings for the relay chassis, not the soldered ones like present, a > thermal conduction path from the relay chassis to the external mounting, > and restrict solder only to the electricals. but that would likely cost > double the current arrangement, so given that this car is 15 years old, > and a new relay will likely last another 15, it's not /that/ big a deal to > buy a new one & forget about it. > Good points, all of them. I hadn't considered the heat aspect. Mike |
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