Elle

.... by about two inches. Car has 175k miles on it and engine
seems in great shape and is maintained pretty carefully IMO
by yours truly. The non-levelness is noticeable when
standing 30 feet or so from the car. Bounce test (pushing on
one side than the other of the front bumper) yields about
one or two cycles.

I will take off the front dr. side wheel today and inspect
the suspension spring (for breakage) and damper (for
leakage). I haven't heard clicking when turning, so I don't
think a CV joint is necessarily broken. A few questions as I
troubleshoot this, using my manual, Tegger's site covering
various suspension components' replacement, and the net:

-- If I replace the front dr. side spring and damper, I
really should do the pass. side, too, right?

-- Could someone please rattle off where I can get a new
damper? (I know this is in the archives... ) My recollection
is OEM is not at all critical here, right? I don't want
performance. I want a damper that acts the same as when my
Civic's dampers were new, at a good price. Napa? Autozone?
There is a junkyard not far from whom I got a strut before.

-- Other things I can check to confirm, say, a broken ball
joint or other causes of the non-levelness? I see Tegger's
site's comments on this but the car doesn't have any braking
problems suggestive of a broken ball joint.

I am using
http://www.askmehelpdesk.com/advice/...hp/t-6582.html .
Note that my manual indicates there is no torsion bar
adjustment on my 91 Civic.

Eric

Elle wrote:
>
> ... by about two inches. Car has 175k miles on it and engine
> seems in great shape and is maintained pretty carefully IMO
> by yours truly. The non-levelness is noticeable when
> standing 30 feet or so from the car. Bounce test (pushing on
> one side than the other of the front bumper) yields about
> one or two cycles.

One to two bounces sounds about right. Though it might be a little soft.
On my '88 Civic, I push down on the fender and it just comes back up without
any residual bouncing.

> I will take off the front dr. side wheel today and inspect
> the suspension spring (for breakage) and damper (for
> leakage). I haven't heard clicking when turning, so I don't
> think a CV joint is necessarily broken. A few questions as I
> troubleshoot this, using my manual, Tegger's site covering
> various suspension components' replacement, and the net:

I would suspect a bad spring. Control arm bushings can also affect the ride
height but they would have to be pretty worn to get two inches out of them
and then you would surely notice derivability problems.

> -- If I replace the front dr. side spring and damper, I
> really should do the pass. side, too, right?

Struts are usually replaced in pairs to keep your car from bouncing unevenly
side to side which could negatively impact the steering.

> -- Could someone please rattle off where I can get a new
> damper? (I know this is in the archives... ) My recollection
> is OEM is not at all critical here, right? I don't want
> performance. I want a damper that acts the same as when my
> Civic's dampers were new, at a good price. Napa? Autozone?
> There is a junkyard not far from whom I got a strut before.

The bone yard might be ok for springs but I would avoid any struts there.
I've found that KYB GR-2 struts work pretty well. You can get them from
http://www.tirerack.com. They might be a little stiffer than stock but they
drive pretty good, not too hard and not too soft. It might be a good time
to do all four if you're going to do the front two. I've had a set on my
'88 Civic for years now and they still work fine. The the only spec I could
find in my Helm manual is for the ride height. It's 25.3 in. for the front
and 25.8 in. for the rear as measured from the ground to the top of the
wheel well when parked on a level surface.

> -- Other things I can check to confirm, say, a broken ball
> joint or other causes of the non-levelness? I see Tegger's
> site's comments on this but the car doesn't have any braking
> problems suggestive of a broken ball joint.

Broken ball joints would surely cause a derivability problem but you should
check them, both upper and lower, routinely.

> I am using
> http://www.askmehelpdesk.com/advice/...hp/t-6582.html .
> Note that my manual indicates there is no torsion bar
> adjustment on my 91 Civic.

Correct, if I remember correctly, the torsion bars were last seen in the '87
Civic. I don't know if they have ever returned.

Eric

Eric

Elle wrote:
>
> ... by about two inches. Car has 175k miles on it and engine
> seems in great shape and is maintained pretty carefully IMO
> by yours truly. The non-levelness is noticeable when
> standing 30 feet or so from the car. Bounce test (pushing on
> one side than the other of the front bumper) yields about
> one or two cycles.

One to two bounces sounds about right. Though it might be a little soft.
On my '88 Civic, I push down on the fender and it just comes back up without
any residual bouncing.

> I will take off the front dr. side wheel today and inspect
> the suspension spring (for breakage) and damper (for
> leakage). I haven't heard clicking when turning, so I don't
> think a CV joint is necessarily broken. A few questions as I
> troubleshoot this, using my manual, Tegger's site covering
> various suspension components' replacement, and the net:

I would suspect a bad spring. Control arm bushings can also affect the ride
height but they would have to be pretty worn to get two inches out of them
and then you would surely notice derivability problems.

> -- If I replace the front dr. side spring and damper, I
> really should do the pass. side, too, right?

Struts are usually replaced in pairs to keep your car from bouncing unevenly
side to side which could negatively impact the steering.

> -- Could someone please rattle off where I can get a new
> damper? (I know this is in the archives... ) My recollection
> is OEM is not at all critical here, right? I don't want
> performance. I want a damper that acts the same as when my
> Civic's dampers were new, at a good price. Napa? Autozone?
> There is a junkyard not far from whom I got a strut before.

The bone yard might be ok for springs but I would avoid any struts there.
I've found that KYB GR-2 struts work pretty well. You can get them from
http://www.tirerack.com. They might be a little stiffer than stock but they
drive pretty good, not too hard and not too soft. It might be a good time
to do all four if you're going to do the front two. I've had a set on my
'88 Civic for years now and they still work fine. The the only spec I could
find in my Helm manual is for the ride height. It's 25.3 in. for the front
and 25.8 in. for the rear as measured from the ground to the top of the
wheel well when parked on a level surface.

> -- Other things I can check to confirm, say, a broken ball
> joint or other causes of the non-levelness? I see Tegger's
> site's comments on this but the car doesn't have any braking
> problems suggestive of a broken ball joint.

Broken ball joints would surely cause a derivability problem but you should
check them, both upper and lower, routinely.

> I am using
> http://www.askmehelpdesk.com/advice/...hp/t-6582.html .
> Note that my manual indicates there is no torsion bar
> adjustment on my 91 Civic.

Correct, if I remember correctly, the torsion bars were last seen in the '87
Civic. I don't know if they have ever returned.

Eric

Elle

"Eric" <say.no@spam.now> wrote
> One to two bounces sounds about right. Though it might be
> a little soft.
> On my '88 Civic, I push down on the fender and it just
> comes back up without
> any residual bouncing.

Eric, thanks for sharing your experience. It helps.

I checked again, and my 91 Civic is indeed much more like
what you describe with your 88 Civic.

Also, the difference in heights is closer to 1 to maybe 1.5
inches.

> I would suspect a bad spring. Control arm bushings can
> also affect the ride
> height but they would have to be pretty worn to get two
> inches out of them
> and then you would surely notice derivability problems.
>
>> -- If I replace the front dr. side spring and damper, I
>> really should do the pass. side, too, right?
>
> Struts are usually replaced in pairs to keep your car from
> bouncing unevenly
> side to side which could negatively impact the steering.
>
>> -- Could someone please rattle off where I can get a new
>> damper? (I know this is in the archives... ) My
>> recollection
>> is OEM is not at all critical here, right? I don't want
>> performance. I want a damper that acts the same as when
>> my
>> Civic's dampers were new, at a good price. Napa?
>> Autozone?
>> There is a junkyard not far from whom I got a strut
>> before.
>
> The bone yard might be ok for springs but I would avoid
> any struts there.
> I've found that KYB GR-2 struts work pretty well. You can
> get them from
> http://www.tirerack.com. They might be a little stiffer
> than stock but they
> drive pretty good, not too hard and not too soft. It
> might be a good time
> to do all four if you're going to do the front two. I've
> had a set on my
> '88 Civic for years now and they still work fine. The the
> only spec I could
> find in my Helm manual is for the ride height. It's 25.3
> in. for the front
> and 25.8 in. for the rear as measured from the ground to
> the top of the
> wheel well when parked on a level surface.
>
>> -- Other things I can check to confirm, say, a broken
>> ball
>> joint or other causes of the non-levelness? I see
>> Tegger's
>> site's comments on this but the car doesn't have any
>> braking
>> problems suggestive of a broken ball joint.
>
> Broken ball joints would surely cause a derivability
> problem but you should
> check them, both upper and lower, routinely.

Yesterday I managed to remove and inspect thoroughly both
front suspension strut (that is, damper and spring)
assemblies. I also looked at the ball joints (upper and
lower) and checked for play in the upper ones. I took
measurements, too, at one point resting the car's weight on
a jack beneath the lower control arms. I couldn't find
anything near an inch off.

I note that, unlike the bolts in the rear lower control
arms, the bolts in the front lower control arms were a
breeze to remove and looked in pretty good repair. I only
sprayed a little PB Blaster on all bolts/nuts and waited ten
minutes. The bushings, at least at the lower control arm,
look okay, but I am not prepared to excuse them yet. I am
still thinking about how the loads transmit and so what
could cause the 1 inch or so drop in height.

I tried switching the strut assemblies but quickly found I'd
have to make more adjustments to them to get them to fit in
the opposite sides. This would require a coil spring
compressor, from what I can tell.

I think I'm going to buy a coil spring compressor today and
check on whether shims exist for the damper assembly.

I am contemplating changing the lower ball joints but see
the nightmare stories about separating them, at least
without the best or near best tool available to do so (which
admittedly might be had for $30 at Autozone) , so I am
hesitating until I have more evidence that one is really,
say, mashed/messed up. Tegger's photos of the car with the
broken front ball joint are inspiring, to say the least.

I think this is going to be a multi-month process, for
budgeting reasons and to enjoy, rather than become
frustrated. Lately I'm thinking that, if anything really
dies on this car, it will be an important suspension
component. This 91 Civic was driven in the northern U.S. for
about half its life and the rear suspension bushings for
sure reflects this. (But I've been over the rear suspension
nightmare already, both hands on at from discussion here at
the newsgroup.)

Elle

"Eric" <say.no@spam.now> wrote
> One to two bounces sounds about right. Though it might be
> a little soft.
> On my '88 Civic, I push down on the fender and it just
> comes back up without
> any residual bouncing.

Eric, thanks for sharing your experience. It helps.

I checked again, and my 91 Civic is indeed much more like
what you describe with your 88 Civic.

Also, the difference in heights is closer to 1 to maybe 1.5
inches.

> I would suspect a bad spring. Control arm bushings can
> also affect the ride
> height but they would have to be pretty worn to get two
> inches out of them
> and then you would surely notice derivability problems.
>
>> -- If I replace the front dr. side spring and damper, I
>> really should do the pass. side, too, right?
>
> Struts are usually replaced in pairs to keep your car from
> bouncing unevenly
> side to side which could negatively impact the steering.
>
>> -- Could someone please rattle off where I can get a new
>> damper? (I know this is in the archives... ) My
>> recollection
>> is OEM is not at all critical here, right? I don't want
>> performance. I want a damper that acts the same as when
>> my
>> Civic's dampers were new, at a good price. Napa?
>> Autozone?
>> There is a junkyard not far from whom I got a strut
>> before.
>
> The bone yard might be ok for springs but I would avoid
> any struts there.
> I've found that KYB GR-2 struts work pretty well. You can
> get them from
> http://www.tirerack.com. They might be a little stiffer
> than stock but they
> drive pretty good, not too hard and not too soft. It
> might be a good time
> to do all four if you're going to do the front two. I've
> had a set on my
> '88 Civic for years now and they still work fine. The the
> only spec I could
> find in my Helm manual is for the ride height. It's 25.3
> in. for the front
> and 25.8 in. for the rear as measured from the ground to
> the top of the
> wheel well when parked on a level surface.
>
>> -- Other things I can check to confirm, say, a broken
>> ball
>> joint or other causes of the non-levelness? I see
>> Tegger's
>> site's comments on this but the car doesn't have any
>> braking
>> problems suggestive of a broken ball joint.
>
> Broken ball joints would surely cause a derivability
> problem but you should
> check them, both upper and lower, routinely.

Yesterday I managed to remove and inspect thoroughly both
front suspension strut (that is, damper and spring)
assemblies. I also looked at the ball joints (upper and
lower) and checked for play in the upper ones. I took
measurements, too, at one point resting the car's weight on
a jack beneath the lower control arms. I couldn't find
anything near an inch off.

I note that, unlike the bolts in the rear lower control
arms, the bolts in the front lower control arms were a
breeze to remove and looked in pretty good repair. I only
sprayed a little PB Blaster on all bolts/nuts and waited ten
minutes. The bushings, at least at the lower control arm,
look okay, but I am not prepared to excuse them yet. I am
still thinking about how the loads transmit and so what
could cause the 1 inch or so drop in height.

I tried switching the strut assemblies but quickly found I'd
have to make more adjustments to them to get them to fit in
the opposite sides. This would require a coil spring
compressor, from what I can tell.

I think I'm going to buy a coil spring compressor today and
check on whether shims exist for the damper assembly.

I am contemplating changing the lower ball joints but see
the nightmare stories about separating them, at least
without the best or near best tool available to do so (which
admittedly might be had for $30 at Autozone) , so I am
hesitating until I have more evidence that one is really,
say, mashed/messed up. Tegger's photos of the car with the
broken front ball joint are inspiring, to say the least.

I think this is going to be a multi-month process, for
budgeting reasons and to enjoy, rather than become
frustrated. Lately I'm thinking that, if anything really
dies on this car, it will be an important suspension
component. This 91 Civic was driven in the northern U.S. for
about half its life and the rear suspension bushings for
sure reflects this. (But I've been over the rear suspension
nightmare already, both hands on at from discussion here at
the newsgroup.)

Elle

"Eric" <say.no@spam.now> wrote
> I would suspect a bad spring. Control arm bushings can
> also affect the ride
> height but they would have to be pretty worn to get two
> inches out of them
> and then you would surely notice derivability problems.

I did some more careful measurements today, ground to top of
front wheel wells. The difference in heights from driver's
side to passenger's side is 11/16 inch and holding.

I now think it's the bushings, possibly a bit of spring sag,
and maybe a bit of wear on the ball joints.

Elle

"Eric" <say.no@spam.now> wrote
> I would suspect a bad spring. Control arm bushings can
> also affect the ride
> height but they would have to be pretty worn to get two
> inches out of them
> and then you would surely notice derivability problems.

I did some more careful measurements today, ground to top of
front wheel wells. The difference in heights from driver's
side to passenger's side is 11/16 inch and holding.

I now think it's the bushings, possibly a bit of spring sag,
and maybe a bit of wear on the ball joints.

Eric

Elle wrote:

[snip]
> I tried switching the strut assemblies but quickly found I'd
> have to make more adjustments to them to get them to fit in
> the opposite sides. This would require a coil spring
> compressor, from what I can tell.

The front struts are sold separately for the left and right sides. I do not
believe that they can be swapped from side to side. The rear struts are
different. Those are the same part numbers for left and right unlike the
fronts.

> I think I'm going to buy a coil spring compressor today and
> check on whether shims exist for the damper assembly.
>
> I am contemplating changing the lower ball joints but see
> the nightmare stories about separating them, at least
> without the best or near best tool available to do so (which
> admittedly might be had for $30 at Autozone) , so I am
> hesitating until I have more evidence that one is really,
> say, mashed/messed up. Tegger's photos of the car with the
> broken front ball joint are inspiring, to say the least.

The upper ball joint is part of the upper control arm which is about $60.
The lower ball joint is pressed into the steering knuckle (I don't know the
cost for replacement). You should check them for free play before you
decide to go through the hassle and expense of changing them. The upper
ball joint can usually be checked by squeezing it in the vertical axis with
a large pair of ChanneLock pliers. If you can see the joint move up and
down as you squeeze it then it should be replaced. With the lower joint, I
usually check it by jacking up the car, putting it on stands, and grabbing
the tire between the 4 and 5 o'clock positions. Try pulling the tire in and
out and feel for free play. If you do find some, then you'll need to
confirm that it's isolated to the ball joint and not the wheel bearing by
having someone repeat that procedure while you watch the joint.

Eric

Eric

Elle wrote:

[snip]
> I tried switching the strut assemblies but quickly found I'd
> have to make more adjustments to them to get them to fit in
> the opposite sides. This would require a coil spring
> compressor, from what I can tell.

The front struts are sold separately for the left and right sides. I do not
believe that they can be swapped from side to side. The rear struts are
different. Those are the same part numbers for left and right unlike the
fronts.

> I think I'm going to buy a coil spring compressor today and
> check on whether shims exist for the damper assembly.
>
> I am contemplating changing the lower ball joints but see
> the nightmare stories about separating them, at least
> without the best or near best tool available to do so (which
> admittedly might be had for $30 at Autozone) , so I am
> hesitating until I have more evidence that one is really,
> say, mashed/messed up. Tegger's photos of the car with the
> broken front ball joint are inspiring, to say the least.

The upper ball joint is part of the upper control arm which is about $60.
The lower ball joint is pressed into the steering knuckle (I don't know the
cost for replacement). You should check them for free play before you
decide to go through the hassle and expense of changing them. The upper
ball joint can usually be checked by squeezing it in the vertical axis with
a large pair of ChanneLock pliers. If you can see the joint move up and
down as you squeeze it then it should be replaced. With the lower joint, I
usually check it by jacking up the car, putting it on stands, and grabbing
the tire between the 4 and 5 o'clock positions. Try pulling the tire in and
out and feel for free play. If you do find some, then you'll need to
confirm that it's isolated to the ball joint and not the wheel bearing by
having someone repeat that procedure while you watch the joint.

Eric

Eric

Elle wrote:
>
> "Eric" <say.no@spam.now> wrote
> > I would suspect a bad spring. Control arm bushings can
> > also affect the ride
> > height but they would have to be pretty worn to get two
> > inches out of them
> > and then you would surely notice derivability problems.
>
> I did some more careful measurements today, ground to top of
> front wheel wells. The difference in heights from driver's
> side to passenger's side is 11/16 inch and holding.
>
> I now think it's the bushings, possibly a bit of spring sag,
> and maybe a bit of wear on the ball joints.

If the bushings are not visibly compressed (checked with the car on the
ground) or cracked, then they're probably OK. I still suspect a bad
spring. If you get one from the wrecking yard, you'll need to know the free
length of the stock new spring and bring a tape measure with you to measure
the new springs. http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com lists 4 different part
numbers for the front springs with prices varying from $48.88 ea. to $136.14
ea. I would give them a call and try to find out what the differences are
between the springs as you may be able to use the less expensive units.

By the way, it might be better to rent a spring compressor for a day rather
than purchase it.

Eric

Eric

Elle wrote:
>
> "Eric" <say.no@spam.now> wrote
> > I would suspect a bad spring. Control arm bushings can
> > also affect the ride
> > height but they would have to be pretty worn to get two
> > inches out of them
> > and then you would surely notice derivability problems.
>
> I did some more careful measurements today, ground to top of
> front wheel wells. The difference in heights from driver's
> side to passenger's side is 11/16 inch and holding.
>
> I now think it's the bushings, possibly a bit of spring sag,
> and maybe a bit of wear on the ball joints.

If the bushings are not visibly compressed (checked with the car on the
ground) or cracked, then they're probably OK. I still suspect a bad
spring. If you get one from the wrecking yard, you'll need to know the free
length of the stock new spring and bring a tape measure with you to measure
the new springs. http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com lists 4 different part
numbers for the front springs with prices varying from $48.88 ea. to $136.14
ea. I would give them a call and try to find out what the differences are
between the springs as you may be able to use the less expensive units.

By the way, it might be better to rent a spring compressor for a day rather
than purchase it.

Eric

Elle

"Eric" <say.no@spam.now> wrote
> Elle wrote:
>
> [snip]
>> I tried switching the strut assemblies but quickly found
>> I'd
>> have to make more adjustments to them to get them to fit
>> in
>> the opposite sides. This would require a coil spring
>> compressor, from what I can tell.
>
> The front struts are sold separately for the left and
> right sides. I do not
> believe that they can be swapped from side to side. The
> rear struts are
> different. Those are the same part numbers for left and
> right unlike the
> fronts.

It did indeed look that way except I thought I could forego
the brake line clamps for my brief swap (during which I
would do no driving but instead just take measurements) and,
if I could get the damper assembly apart, rotate certain
parts to make the swap work.

But since they're different part nos., I understand your
point.

My Chilton's manual gave checks for the ball joints similar
to yours.

About the springs:
What's odd to me is that both under load and with the strut
assembly removed, the spring lengths were the same.

Uncompressed, the dr. side control arm bushing is cracked. I
think the pass. side one was too. But I didn't take
measurements or inspect how they appeared under load, so
that seems like a good next step.

I found today that Autozone will loan me a spring compressor
that may fit on Honda's tiny coil springs. No charge; just a
refundable deposit.

Thank you. I think I'm on my way to better understanding
what I might need to do at some point soon. I am trying to
avoid nightmares brought on by violation of the "If it ain't
broke, don't fix it" rule. Plus I am ambivalent about
spending too much money on a car this old, much as I want to
take it to at least 250,000 miles.

Elle

"Eric" <say.no@spam.now> wrote
> Elle wrote:
>
> [snip]
>> I tried switching the strut assemblies but quickly found
>> I'd
>> have to make more adjustments to them to get them to fit
>> in
>> the opposite sides. This would require a coil spring
>> compressor, from what I can tell.
>
> The front struts are sold separately for the left and
> right sides. I do not
> believe that they can be swapped from side to side. The
> rear struts are
> different. Those are the same part numbers for left and
> right unlike the
> fronts.

It did indeed look that way except I thought I could forego
the brake line clamps for my brief swap (during which I
would do no driving but instead just take measurements) and,
if I could get the damper assembly apart, rotate certain
parts to make the swap work.

But since they're different part nos., I understand your
point.

My Chilton's manual gave checks for the ball joints similar
to yours.

About the springs:
What's odd to me is that both under load and with the strut
assembly removed, the spring lengths were the same.

Uncompressed, the dr. side control arm bushing is cracked. I
think the pass. side one was too. But I didn't take
measurements or inspect how they appeared under load, so
that seems like a good next step.

I found today that Autozone will loan me a spring compressor
that may fit on Honda's tiny coil springs. No charge; just a
refundable deposit.

Thank you. I think I'm on my way to better understanding
what I might need to do at some point soon. I am trying to
avoid nightmares brought on by violation of the "If it ain't
broke, don't fix it" rule. Plus I am ambivalent about
spending too much money on a car this old, much as I want to
take it to at least 250,000 miles.

Eric

Elle wrote:

[snip]
> About the springs:
> What's odd to me is that both under load and with the strut
> assembly removed, the spring lengths were the same.

By "under load" do you mean with the car jacked up and the strut extended?
You need to compare the free length of the spring when it's uninstalled from
the strut assembly to the free length of new springs.

> Uncompressed, the dr. side control arm bushing is cracked. I
> think the pass. side one was too. But I didn't take
> measurements or inspect how they appeared under load, so
> that seems like a good next step.

A worn bushing might give a ½" or so. I replaced both the front and rear
lower control arm bushings as well as the rear upper control arm bushings on
my Civic about a year ago or so. It made the car drive a lot smoother. My
front lower control arm bushings were also cracked.

> I found today that Autozone will loan me a spring compressor
> that may fit on Honda's tiny coil springs. No charge; just a
> refundable deposit.
>
> Thank you. I think I'm on my way to better understanding
> what I might need to do at some point soon. I am trying to
> avoid nightmares brought on by violation of the "If it ain't
> broke, don't fix it" rule. Plus I am ambivalent about
> spending too much money on a car this old, much as I want to
> take it to at least 250,000 miles.

My Civic is at about 243,000 miles and I'm hoping to drive it to at least
300,000 or so. The paint's not in the greatest shape but that doesn't
affect how it drives.

Eric

Eric

Elle wrote:

[snip]
> About the springs:
> What's odd to me is that both under load and with the strut
> assembly removed, the spring lengths were the same.

By "under load" do you mean with the car jacked up and the strut extended?
You need to compare the free length of the spring when it's uninstalled from
the strut assembly to the free length of new springs.

> Uncompressed, the dr. side control arm bushing is cracked. I
> think the pass. side one was too. But I didn't take
> measurements or inspect how they appeared under load, so
> that seems like a good next step.

A worn bushing might give a ½" or so. I replaced both the front and rear
lower control arm bushings as well as the rear upper control arm bushings on
my Civic about a year ago or so. It made the car drive a lot smoother. My
front lower control arm bushings were also cracked.

> I found today that Autozone will loan me a spring compressor
> that may fit on Honda's tiny coil springs. No charge; just a
> refundable deposit.
>
> Thank you. I think I'm on my way to better understanding
> what I might need to do at some point soon. I am trying to
> avoid nightmares brought on by violation of the "If it ain't
> broke, don't fix it" rule. Plus I am ambivalent about
> spending too much money on a car this old, much as I want to
> take it to at least 250,000 miles.

My Civic is at about 243,000 miles and I'm hoping to drive it to at least
300,000 or so. The paint's not in the greatest shape but that doesn't
affect how it drives.

Eric