Re: 91 civic - tough question about cooling
 

i can't imagine that, despite my crude backer, my 600 grit sanding
removed enough material to make a significant difference in the mating
of the surfaces. i am a metal fabricator and i am sure i removed less
than .0005 or less total. if a gasket can't make that up... the
gasket itself was, say, about 1/16" thick or greater. are they not
designed to take up some slack in the mating surfaces?

the head was done at a shop that pretty much only does that,
particularly for dealerships. it was perfect.

the heater core hasn't been addressed. could my mistake of not turning
up the heat while filling the system leave a large air pocket in the
system?

thanks. this forum is easily the best!


'Curly Q. Links' wrote:
> larson.joshua@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > first i'd like to say thanks to the great people on this forum for all
> > the help they provide.
> >
> > i've done a search for my problem and i've found some things but
> > nothing exactly fits.
> >
> > i recently performed a head gasket job on my civic. i began this job
> > because i had bubbling in my coolant resevoir after driving for a
> > while. i also had some electrical issues, but i don't see those as
> > related to the bubbles. the bubbling was not boiling. some kind of
> > gas was pushing through to the resevoir, and i assumed it was
> > compressed gases of some kind coming from the cyclinders through the
> > head gasket.
> >
> > after removing the head, i took it to the shop. they told me the head
> > had to be machined by 6 thousands to remove the warp, which seems like
> > quite a bit. he also pointed out where the likely breaches of the old
> > gasket were.
> >
> > i cleaned and lapped the surface of the block. there was no apparent
> > cracking or warping (i checked for warp with a quality straight edge in
> > multiple directions).
> >
> > put everything back together to spec.
> >
> > i filled up the cooling system, on an incline with the radiator high.
> > bled the system according to haynes.
> >
> > i've been test driving it for several days, and what happens is a
> > little weird. after a light drive, i get a few minutes of bubbles
> > (again, not boiling - bubbles) and i can hear coolant sucking past the
> > rad cap in pulses. after a heavy drive i get the coolant pulsing, but
> > much more bubbling - like the bubbling i used to get.
> >
> > the only thing i have found that i didn't do was crank on the heater
> > when i was filling the cooling system. is it possible that since i did
> > not do this, there was a chunk of air in the heater core that is now
> > escaping when the car heats up? i ran the car tonight at idle with the
> > heater on full blast after discovering this possibility, but the rad
> > stayed full (again on an incline) even with the bleeder open.
> >
> > it seems there are three or four possibilities:
> > 1 - block is cracked
> > 2 - head is cracked and crack missed by shop
> > 3 - heater core had air bubble and now air is working out
> > 4 - head gasket was installed improperly
> >
> > any thoughts? thanks.
>
> -------------------------------------
>
> Keep this in perspective. When the engine gets hot it will force out
> some air (if there is air in the system). If there's enough coolant in
> the reservoir, (and the rad cap is working correctly), it will suck that
> coolant into the engine when it all cools down. The owner's manual is
> very clear: Whenever you have work done on the cooling system, you have
> to be sure to fill the reservoir to the MAX mark.
>
> Are you keeping the reservoir full enough so the expelled air can get
> replaced with coolant? Once the air is all out, the system works
> 'transparently', but you still have to check it regularly, since some
> coolant can escape thru the water pump weep hole. Service manual says
> it's acceptable.
>
> 'Curly'

Re: 91 civic - tough question about cooling
 

<larson.joshua@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1150428793.205748.181080@h76g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
> first i'd like to say thanks to the great people on this forum for all
> the help they provide.
>
> i've done a search for my problem and i've found some things but
> nothing exactly fits.
>
> i recently performed a head gasket job on my civic. i began this job
> because i had bubbling in my coolant resevoir after driving for a
> while. i also had some electrical issues, but i don't see those as
> related to the bubbles. the bubbling was not boiling. some kind of
> gas was pushing through to the resevoir, and i assumed it was
> compressed gases of some kind coming from the cyclinders through the
> head gasket.
>
> after removing the head, i took it to the shop. they told me the head
> had to be machined by 6 thousands to remove the warp, which seems like
> quite a bit. he also pointed out where the likely breaches of the old
> gasket were.
>
> i cleaned and lapped the surface of the block. there was no apparent
> cracking or warping (i checked for warp with a quality straight edge in
> multiple directions).
>
> put everything back together to spec.
>
> i filled up the cooling system, on an incline with the radiator high.
> bled the system according to haynes.
>
> i've been test driving it for several days, and what happens is a
> little weird. after a light drive, i get a few minutes of bubbles
> (again, not boiling - bubbles) and i can hear coolant sucking past the
> rad cap in pulses. after a heavy drive i get the coolant pulsing, but
> much more bubbling - like the bubbling i used to get.
>
> the only thing i have found that i didn't do was crank on the heater
> when i was filling the cooling system. is it possible that since i did
> not do this, there was a chunk of air in the heater core that is now
> escaping when the car heats up? i ran the car tonight at idle with the
> heater on full blast after discovering this possibility, but the rad
> stayed full (again on an incline) even with the bleeder open.
>
> it seems there are three or four possibilities:
> 1 - block is cracked
> 2 - head is cracked and crack missed by shop
> 3 - heater core had air bubble and now air is working out
> 4 - head gasket was installed improperly
>
> any thoughts? thanks.
>
The symptoms don't sound like a classic head leak any more, but it would be
good to do at least the confidence check. With the engine cold, remove the
radiator cap, start the engine and pinch off the hose to the reservoir.
Place the palm of your hand over the radiator cap opening. If you feel
steadily rising pressure or pressure pulses, the head probably needs to come
back off :-( If not, I'd rule it out. I've never experienced a false
result with that test.

My thoughts are turning toward the radiator cap, a radiator hose collapsing,
or even a leaky heater core... but you don't mention the coolant loss that
almost always accompanies a heater core leak. I'd certainly replace the
radiator cap with OEM on general principles unless you did that recently.
And some peeks at the lower radiator hose to make sure it's still plump are
in order.

Good luck!

Mike

Re: 91 civic - tough question about cooling
 

<larson.joshua@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1150428793.205748.181080@h76g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
> first i'd like to say thanks to the great people on this forum for all
> the help they provide.
>
> i've done a search for my problem and i've found some things but
> nothing exactly fits.
>
> i recently performed a head gasket job on my civic. i began this job
> because i had bubbling in my coolant resevoir after driving for a
> while. i also had some electrical issues, but i don't see those as
> related to the bubbles. the bubbling was not boiling. some kind of
> gas was pushing through to the resevoir, and i assumed it was
> compressed gases of some kind coming from the cyclinders through the
> head gasket.
>
> after removing the head, i took it to the shop. they told me the head
> had to be machined by 6 thousands to remove the warp, which seems like
> quite a bit. he also pointed out where the likely breaches of the old
> gasket were.
>
> i cleaned and lapped the surface of the block. there was no apparent
> cracking or warping (i checked for warp with a quality straight edge in
> multiple directions).
>
> put everything back together to spec.
>
> i filled up the cooling system, on an incline with the radiator high.
> bled the system according to haynes.
>
> i've been test driving it for several days, and what happens is a
> little weird. after a light drive, i get a few minutes of bubbles
> (again, not boiling - bubbles) and i can hear coolant sucking past the
> rad cap in pulses. after a heavy drive i get the coolant pulsing, but
> much more bubbling - like the bubbling i used to get.
>
> the only thing i have found that i didn't do was crank on the heater
> when i was filling the cooling system. is it possible that since i did
> not do this, there was a chunk of air in the heater core that is now
> escaping when the car heats up? i ran the car tonight at idle with the
> heater on full blast after discovering this possibility, but the rad
> stayed full (again on an incline) even with the bleeder open.
>
> it seems there are three or four possibilities:
> 1 - block is cracked
> 2 - head is cracked and crack missed by shop
> 3 - heater core had air bubble and now air is working out
> 4 - head gasket was installed improperly
>
> any thoughts? thanks.
>
The symptoms don't sound like a classic head leak any more, but it would be
good to do at least the confidence check. With the engine cold, remove the
radiator cap, start the engine and pinch off the hose to the reservoir.
Place the palm of your hand over the radiator cap opening. If you feel
steadily rising pressure or pressure pulses, the head probably needs to come
back off :-( If not, I'd rule it out. I've never experienced a false
result with that test.

My thoughts are turning toward the radiator cap, a radiator hose collapsing,
or even a leaky heater core... but you don't mention the coolant loss that
almost always accompanies a heater core leak. I'd certainly replace the
radiator cap with OEM on general principles unless you did that recently.
And some peeks at the lower radiator hose to make sure it's still plump are
in order.

Good luck!

Mike

Re: 91 civic - tough question about cooling
 

<larson.joshua@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1150428793.205748.181080@h76g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
> first i'd like to say thanks to the great people on this forum for all
> the help they provide.
>
> i've done a search for my problem and i've found some things but
> nothing exactly fits.
>
> i recently performed a head gasket job on my civic. i began this job
> because i had bubbling in my coolant resevoir after driving for a
> while. i also had some electrical issues, but i don't see those as
> related to the bubbles. the bubbling was not boiling. some kind of
> gas was pushing through to the resevoir, and i assumed it was
> compressed gases of some kind coming from the cyclinders through the
> head gasket.
>
> after removing the head, i took it to the shop. they told me the head
> had to be machined by 6 thousands to remove the warp, which seems like
> quite a bit. he also pointed out where the likely breaches of the old
> gasket were.
>
> i cleaned and lapped the surface of the block. there was no apparent
> cracking or warping (i checked for warp with a quality straight edge in
> multiple directions).
>
> put everything back together to spec.
>
> i filled up the cooling system, on an incline with the radiator high.
> bled the system according to haynes.
>
> i've been test driving it for several days, and what happens is a
> little weird. after a light drive, i get a few minutes of bubbles
> (again, not boiling - bubbles) and i can hear coolant sucking past the
> rad cap in pulses. after a heavy drive i get the coolant pulsing, but
> much more bubbling - like the bubbling i used to get.
>
> the only thing i have found that i didn't do was crank on the heater
> when i was filling the cooling system. is it possible that since i did
> not do this, there was a chunk of air in the heater core that is now
> escaping when the car heats up? i ran the car tonight at idle with the
> heater on full blast after discovering this possibility, but the rad
> stayed full (again on an incline) even with the bleeder open.
>
> it seems there are three or four possibilities:
> 1 - block is cracked
> 2 - head is cracked and crack missed by shop
> 3 - heater core had air bubble and now air is working out
> 4 - head gasket was installed improperly
>
> any thoughts? thanks.
>
The symptoms don't sound like a classic head leak any more, but it would be
good to do at least the confidence check. With the engine cold, remove the
radiator cap, start the engine and pinch off the hose to the reservoir.
Place the palm of your hand over the radiator cap opening. If you feel
steadily rising pressure or pressure pulses, the head probably needs to come
back off :-( If not, I'd rule it out. I've never experienced a false
result with that test.

My thoughts are turning toward the radiator cap, a radiator hose collapsing,
or even a leaky heater core... but you don't mention the coolant loss that
almost always accompanies a heater core leak. I'd certainly replace the
radiator cap with OEM on general principles unless you did that recently.
And some peeks at the lower radiator hose to make sure it's still plump are
in order.

Good luck!

Mike

Re: 91 civic - tough question about cooling
 

larson.joshua@gmail.com wrote:
> i can't imagine that, despite my crude backer, my 600 grit sanding
> removed enough material to make a significant difference in the mating
> of the surfaces. i am a metal fabricator and i am sure i removed less
> than .0005 or less total. if a gasket can't make that up... the
> gasket itself was, say, about 1/16" thick or greater. are they not
> designed to take up some slack in the mating surfaces?

not really. original honda head/block surfaces are mirror smooth and
dead flat - no "slack" to take up.

>
> the head was done at a shop that pretty much only does that,
> particularly for dealerships. it was perfect.

ok. that makes a crack more likely.

>
> the heater core hasn't been addressed. could my mistake of not turning
> up the heat while filling the system leave a large air pocket in the
> system?

that'll make it burp, not bubble. bubbling is a dead giveaway,
especially in a honda where the leakage channel is straight into the
water jacket.

>
> thanks. this forum is easily the best!
>
>
> 'Curly Q. Links' wrote:
>
>>larson.joshua@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>>first i'd like to say thanks to the great people on this forum for all
>>>the help they provide.
>>>
>>>i've done a search for my problem and i've found some things but
>>>nothing exactly fits.
>>>
>>>i recently performed a head gasket job on my civic. i began this job
>>>because i had bubbling in my coolant resevoir after driving for a
>>>while. i also had some electrical issues, but i don't see those as
>>>related to the bubbles. the bubbling was not boiling. some kind of
>>>gas was pushing through to the resevoir, and i assumed it was
>>>compressed gases of some kind coming from the cyclinders through the
>>>head gasket.
>>>
>>>after removing the head, i took it to the shop. they told me the head
>>>had to be machined by 6 thousands to remove the warp, which seems like
>>>quite a bit. he also pointed out where the likely breaches of the old
>>>gasket were.
>>>
>>>i cleaned and lapped the surface of the block. there was no apparent
>>>cracking or warping (i checked for warp with a quality straight edge in
>>>multiple directions).
>>>
>>>put everything back together to spec.
>>>
>>>i filled up the cooling system, on an incline with the radiator high.
>>>bled the system according to haynes.
>>>
>>>i've been test driving it for several days, and what happens is a
>>>little weird. after a light drive, i get a few minutes of bubbles
>>>(again, not boiling - bubbles) and i can hear coolant sucking past the
>>>rad cap in pulses. after a heavy drive i get the coolant pulsing, but
>>>much more bubbling - like the bubbling i used to get.
>>>
>>>the only thing i have found that i didn't do was crank on the heater
>>>when i was filling the cooling system. is it possible that since i did
>>>not do this, there was a chunk of air in the heater core that is now
>>>escaping when the car heats up? i ran the car tonight at idle with the
>>>heater on full blast after discovering this possibility, but the rad
>>>stayed full (again on an incline) even with the bleeder open.
>>>
>>>it seems there are three or four possibilities:
>>>1 - block is cracked
>>>2 - head is cracked and crack missed by shop
>>>3 - heater core had air bubble and now air is working out
>>>4 - head gasket was installed improperly
>>>
>>>any thoughts? thanks.
>>
>>-------------------------------------
>>
>>Keep this in perspective. When the engine gets hot it will force out
>>some air (if there is air in the system). If there's enough coolant in
>>the reservoir, (and the rad cap is working correctly), it will suck that
>>coolant into the engine when it all cools down. The owner's manual is
>>very clear: Whenever you have work done on the cooling system, you have
>>to be sure to fill the reservoir to the MAX mark.
>>
>>Are you keeping the reservoir full enough so the expelled air can get
>>replaced with coolant? Once the air is all out, the system works
>>'transparently', but you still have to check it regularly, since some
>>coolant can escape thru the water pump weep hole. Service manual says
>>it's acceptable.
>>
>>'Curly'
>
>

Re: 91 civic - tough question about cooling
 

larson.joshua@gmail.com wrote:
> i can't imagine that, despite my crude backer, my 600 grit sanding
> removed enough material to make a significant difference in the mating
> of the surfaces. i am a metal fabricator and i am sure i removed less
> than .0005 or less total. if a gasket can't make that up... the
> gasket itself was, say, about 1/16" thick or greater. are they not
> designed to take up some slack in the mating surfaces?

not really. original honda head/block surfaces are mirror smooth and
dead flat - no "slack" to take up.

>
> the head was done at a shop that pretty much only does that,
> particularly for dealerships. it was perfect.

ok. that makes a crack more likely.

>
> the heater core hasn't been addressed. could my mistake of not turning
> up the heat while filling the system leave a large air pocket in the
> system?

that'll make it burp, not bubble. bubbling is a dead giveaway,
especially in a honda where the leakage channel is straight into the
water jacket.

>
> thanks. this forum is easily the best!
>
>
> 'Curly Q. Links' wrote:
>
>>larson.joshua@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>>first i'd like to say thanks to the great people on this forum for all
>>>the help they provide.
>>>
>>>i've done a search for my problem and i've found some things but
>>>nothing exactly fits.
>>>
>>>i recently performed a head gasket job on my civic. i began this job
>>>because i had bubbling in my coolant resevoir after driving for a
>>>while. i also had some electrical issues, but i don't see those as
>>>related to the bubbles. the bubbling was not boiling. some kind of
>>>gas was pushing through to the resevoir, and i assumed it was
>>>compressed gases of some kind coming from the cyclinders through the
>>>head gasket.
>>>
>>>after removing the head, i took it to the shop. they told me the head
>>>had to be machined by 6 thousands to remove the warp, which seems like
>>>quite a bit. he also pointed out where the likely breaches of the old
>>>gasket were.
>>>
>>>i cleaned and lapped the surface of the block. there was no apparent
>>>cracking or warping (i checked for warp with a quality straight edge in
>>>multiple directions).
>>>
>>>put everything back together to spec.
>>>
>>>i filled up the cooling system, on an incline with the radiator high.
>>>bled the system according to haynes.
>>>
>>>i've been test driving it for several days, and what happens is a
>>>little weird. after a light drive, i get a few minutes of bubbles
>>>(again, not boiling - bubbles) and i can hear coolant sucking past the
>>>rad cap in pulses. after a heavy drive i get the coolant pulsing, but
>>>much more bubbling - like the bubbling i used to get.
>>>
>>>the only thing i have found that i didn't do was crank on the heater
>>>when i was filling the cooling system. is it possible that since i did
>>>not do this, there was a chunk of air in the heater core that is now
>>>escaping when the car heats up? i ran the car tonight at idle with the
>>>heater on full blast after discovering this possibility, but the rad
>>>stayed full (again on an incline) even with the bleeder open.
>>>
>>>it seems there are three or four possibilities:
>>>1 - block is cracked
>>>2 - head is cracked and crack missed by shop
>>>3 - heater core had air bubble and now air is working out
>>>4 - head gasket was installed improperly
>>>
>>>any thoughts? thanks.
>>
>>-------------------------------------
>>
>>Keep this in perspective. When the engine gets hot it will force out
>>some air (if there is air in the system). If there's enough coolant in
>>the reservoir, (and the rad cap is working correctly), it will suck that
>>coolant into the engine when it all cools down. The owner's manual is
>>very clear: Whenever you have work done on the cooling system, you have
>>to be sure to fill the reservoir to the MAX mark.
>>
>>Are you keeping the reservoir full enough so the expelled air can get
>>replaced with coolant? Once the air is all out, the system works
>>'transparently', but you still have to check it regularly, since some
>>coolant can escape thru the water pump weep hole. Service manual says
>>it's acceptable.
>>
>>'Curly'
>
>

Re: 91 civic - tough question about cooling
 

larson.joshua@gmail.com wrote:
> i can't imagine that, despite my crude backer, my 600 grit sanding
> removed enough material to make a significant difference in the mating
> of the surfaces. i am a metal fabricator and i am sure i removed less
> than .0005 or less total. if a gasket can't make that up... the
> gasket itself was, say, about 1/16" thick or greater. are they not
> designed to take up some slack in the mating surfaces?

not really. original honda head/block surfaces are mirror smooth and
dead flat - no "slack" to take up.

>
> the head was done at a shop that pretty much only does that,
> particularly for dealerships. it was perfect.

ok. that makes a crack more likely.

>
> the heater core hasn't been addressed. could my mistake of not turning
> up the heat while filling the system leave a large air pocket in the
> system?

that'll make it burp, not bubble. bubbling is a dead giveaway,
especially in a honda where the leakage channel is straight into the
water jacket.

>
> thanks. this forum is easily the best!
>
>
> 'Curly Q. Links' wrote:
>
>>larson.joshua@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>>first i'd like to say thanks to the great people on this forum for all
>>>the help they provide.
>>>
>>>i've done a search for my problem and i've found some things but
>>>nothing exactly fits.
>>>
>>>i recently performed a head gasket job on my civic. i began this job
>>>because i had bubbling in my coolant resevoir after driving for a
>>>while. i also had some electrical issues, but i don't see those as
>>>related to the bubbles. the bubbling was not boiling. some kind of
>>>gas was pushing through to the resevoir, and i assumed it was
>>>compressed gases of some kind coming from the cyclinders through the
>>>head gasket.
>>>
>>>after removing the head, i took it to the shop. they told me the head
>>>had to be machined by 6 thousands to remove the warp, which seems like
>>>quite a bit. he also pointed out where the likely breaches of the old
>>>gasket were.
>>>
>>>i cleaned and lapped the surface of the block. there was no apparent
>>>cracking or warping (i checked for warp with a quality straight edge in
>>>multiple directions).
>>>
>>>put everything back together to spec.
>>>
>>>i filled up the cooling system, on an incline with the radiator high.
>>>bled the system according to haynes.
>>>
>>>i've been test driving it for several days, and what happens is a
>>>little weird. after a light drive, i get a few minutes of bubbles
>>>(again, not boiling - bubbles) and i can hear coolant sucking past the
>>>rad cap in pulses. after a heavy drive i get the coolant pulsing, but
>>>much more bubbling - like the bubbling i used to get.
>>>
>>>the only thing i have found that i didn't do was crank on the heater
>>>when i was filling the cooling system. is it possible that since i did
>>>not do this, there was a chunk of air in the heater core that is now
>>>escaping when the car heats up? i ran the car tonight at idle with the
>>>heater on full blast after discovering this possibility, but the rad
>>>stayed full (again on an incline) even with the bleeder open.
>>>
>>>it seems there are three or four possibilities:
>>>1 - block is cracked
>>>2 - head is cracked and crack missed by shop
>>>3 - heater core had air bubble and now air is working out
>>>4 - head gasket was installed improperly
>>>
>>>any thoughts? thanks.
>>
>>-------------------------------------
>>
>>Keep this in perspective. When the engine gets hot it will force out
>>some air (if there is air in the system). If there's enough coolant in
>>the reservoir, (and the rad cap is working correctly), it will suck that
>>coolant into the engine when it all cools down. The owner's manual is
>>very clear: Whenever you have work done on the cooling system, you have
>>to be sure to fill the reservoir to the MAX mark.
>>
>>Are you keeping the reservoir full enough so the expelled air can get
>>replaced with coolant? Once the air is all out, the system works
>>'transparently', but you still have to check it regularly, since some
>>coolant can escape thru the water pump weep hole. Service manual says
>>it's acceptable.
>>
>>'Curly'
>
>

Re: 91 civic - tough question about cooling
 

larson.joshua@gmail.com wrote in
news:1150430858.954298.27930@h76g2000cwa.googlegro ups.com:

>
>> > i cleaned and lapped the surface of the block.
>>
>> how exactly did you do this?
>
> i scraped the block surface with a plastic scraper at first. then i
> used carb cleaner and a toothbrush to scrub off the remaining gasket
> crud. after it was fairly clean i used 600 grit sandpaper tightly
> stapled to an index card sized piece of flat particle board. i lightly
> sanded the surface.

You did this before or AFTER the head was machined to flatten it?
Why would old gasket material need to be removed after machining to flatten
it? It should not BE there after machining. Besides,I believe you do NOT
want the mating surfaces to be polished(there's no need for it) because it
would reduce sealing to the gasket.

>
> the head surface seemed near perfect after being machined. there were
> no scrapes/scratches of much significance on the block that i could
> tell, but who knows. what do you mean by "impossible for a gas seal to
> be made?"


The head would not clamp down on the GASKET sufficiently if polished or
polishing affected the levelness recreated by the machining.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: 91 civic - tough question about cooling
 

larson.joshua@gmail.com wrote in
news:1150430858.954298.27930@h76g2000cwa.googlegro ups.com:

>
>> > i cleaned and lapped the surface of the block.
>>
>> how exactly did you do this?
>
> i scraped the block surface with a plastic scraper at first. then i
> used carb cleaner and a toothbrush to scrub off the remaining gasket
> crud. after it was fairly clean i used 600 grit sandpaper tightly
> stapled to an index card sized piece of flat particle board. i lightly
> sanded the surface.

You did this before or AFTER the head was machined to flatten it?
Why would old gasket material need to be removed after machining to flatten
it? It should not BE there after machining. Besides,I believe you do NOT
want the mating surfaces to be polished(there's no need for it) because it
would reduce sealing to the gasket.

>
> the head surface seemed near perfect after being machined. there were
> no scrapes/scratches of much significance on the block that i could
> tell, but who knows. what do you mean by "impossible for a gas seal to
> be made?"


The head would not clamp down on the GASKET sufficiently if polished or
polishing affected the levelness recreated by the machining.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: 91 civic - tough question about cooling
 

larson.joshua@gmail.com wrote in
news:1150430858.954298.27930@h76g2000cwa.googlegro ups.com:

>
>> > i cleaned and lapped the surface of the block.
>>
>> how exactly did you do this?
>
> i scraped the block surface with a plastic scraper at first. then i
> used carb cleaner and a toothbrush to scrub off the remaining gasket
> crud. after it was fairly clean i used 600 grit sandpaper tightly
> stapled to an index card sized piece of flat particle board. i lightly
> sanded the surface.

You did this before or AFTER the head was machined to flatten it?
Why would old gasket material need to be removed after machining to flatten
it? It should not BE there after machining. Besides,I believe you do NOT
want the mating surfaces to be polished(there's no need for it) because it
would reduce sealing to the gasket.

>
> the head surface seemed near perfect after being machined. there were
> no scrapes/scratches of much significance on the block that i could
> tell, but who knows. what do you mean by "impossible for a gas seal to
> be made?"


The head would not clamp down on the GASKET sufficiently if polished or
polishing affected the levelness recreated by the machining.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: 91 civic - tough question about cooling
 

Jim Yanik wrote:
> larson.joshua@gmail.com wrote in
> news:1150430858.954298.27930@h76g2000cwa.googlegro ups.com:
>
>
>>>>i cleaned and lapped the surface of the block.
>>>
>>>how exactly did you do this?
>>
>>i scraped the block surface with a plastic scraper at first. then i
>>used carb cleaner and a toothbrush to scrub off the remaining gasket
>>crud. after it was fairly clean i used 600 grit sandpaper tightly
>>stapled to an index card sized piece of flat particle board. i lightly
>>sanded the surface.
>
>
> You did this before or AFTER the head was machined to flatten it?
> Why would old gasket material need to be removed after machining to flatten
> it? It should not BE there after machining. Besides,I believe you do NOT
> want the mating surfaces to be polished(there's no need for it) because it
> would reduce sealing to the gasket.
>
>
>>the head surface seemed near perfect after being machined. there were
>>no scrapes/scratches of much significance on the block that i could
>>tell, but who knows. what do you mean by "impossible for a gas seal to
>>be made?"
>
>
>
> The head would not clamp down on the GASKET sufficiently if polished or
> polishing affected the levelness recreated by the machining.
>
sealing is much more effective with a /smooth/ surface. look at the
mating surfaces on high pressure valves and artillery. you're right if
"polishing" makes the surface deviate from completely flat, but the
flatter & smoother the better.

Re: 91 civic - tough question about cooling
 

Jim Yanik wrote:
> larson.joshua@gmail.com wrote in
> news:1150430858.954298.27930@h76g2000cwa.googlegro ups.com:
>
>
>>>>i cleaned and lapped the surface of the block.
>>>
>>>how exactly did you do this?
>>
>>i scraped the block surface with a plastic scraper at first. then i
>>used carb cleaner and a toothbrush to scrub off the remaining gasket
>>crud. after it was fairly clean i used 600 grit sandpaper tightly
>>stapled to an index card sized piece of flat particle board. i lightly
>>sanded the surface.
>
>
> You did this before or AFTER the head was machined to flatten it?
> Why would old gasket material need to be removed after machining to flatten
> it? It should not BE there after machining. Besides,I believe you do NOT
> want the mating surfaces to be polished(there's no need for it) because it
> would reduce sealing to the gasket.
>
>
>>the head surface seemed near perfect after being machined. there were
>>no scrapes/scratches of much significance on the block that i could
>>tell, but who knows. what do you mean by "impossible for a gas seal to
>>be made?"
>
>
>
> The head would not clamp down on the GASKET sufficiently if polished or
> polishing affected the levelness recreated by the machining.
>
sealing is much more effective with a /smooth/ surface. look at the
mating surfaces on high pressure valves and artillery. you're right if
"polishing" makes the surface deviate from completely flat, but the
flatter & smoother the better.

Re: 91 civic - tough question about cooling
 

Jim Yanik wrote:
> larson.joshua@gmail.com wrote in
> news:1150430858.954298.27930@h76g2000cwa.googlegro ups.com:
>
>
>>>>i cleaned and lapped the surface of the block.
>>>
>>>how exactly did you do this?
>>
>>i scraped the block surface with a plastic scraper at first. then i
>>used carb cleaner and a toothbrush to scrub off the remaining gasket
>>crud. after it was fairly clean i used 600 grit sandpaper tightly
>>stapled to an index card sized piece of flat particle board. i lightly
>>sanded the surface.
>
>
> You did this before or AFTER the head was machined to flatten it?
> Why would old gasket material need to be removed after machining to flatten
> it? It should not BE there after machining. Besides,I believe you do NOT
> want the mating surfaces to be polished(there's no need for it) because it
> would reduce sealing to the gasket.
>
>
>>the head surface seemed near perfect after being machined. there were
>>no scrapes/scratches of much significance on the block that i could
>>tell, but who knows. what do you mean by "impossible for a gas seal to
>>be made?"
>
>
>
> The head would not clamp down on the GASKET sufficiently if polished or
> polishing affected the levelness recreated by the machining.
>
sealing is much more effective with a /smooth/ surface. look at the
mating surfaces on high pressure valves and artillery. you're right if
"polishing" makes the surface deviate from completely flat, but the
flatter & smoother the better.

Re: 91 civic - tough question about cooling
 

just to clarify, i didn't polish the head, i polished the block. i
never touched the head after it was machined.

small update:
i drove the car to work today which ends up being about 70 miles round
trip. at the end of my trip home (which is about a 2500 foot climb
into some mountains), i park the car, turn off the motor and i hear
silence for a time. which if i haven't been clear, is sort of normal
but sometimes i would have a little bubbling after parking and turning
off the motor.

it was clear though that this time there was no bubbling, even after a
hard drive. however, after about 10 or 15 seconds i start hearing the
slurping of the coolant past the rad cap. then the bubbling started.
so, *no* bubbling with engine running, and *bubbling* shortly after the
enginie is shut off.

i pulled the overflow tube out of the resevoir and noticed coolant
coming out in small quantities in time with the slurping sound. is it
possible that the recently shut down engine heats up slightly (i think
they do after shut down), thereby heating up coolant in the engine,
pushing coolant past the rad cap, but the flow is momentary (the
slurping) creating a small steam pocket in the overflow tube, which
then is manifested as bubbles in the overflow resevoir?

the rad cap is newish (~6 months old), but i have at least two other
ones that i may test to see if they perform differently.

i am now hopeful that the engine is okay since bubbling isn't ocurring
during engine operation.

thanks so much for all your input.

josh

jim beam wrote:
> Jim Yanik wrote:
> > larson.joshua@gmail.com wrote in
> > news:1150430858.954298.27930@h76g2000cwa.googlegro ups.com:
> >
> >
> >>>>i cleaned and lapped the surface of the block.
> >>>
> >>>how exactly did you do this?
> >>
> >>i scraped the block surface with a plastic scraper at first. then i
> >>used carb cleaner and a toothbrush to scrub off the remaining gasket
> >>crud. after it was fairly clean i used 600 grit sandpaper tightly
> >>stapled to an index card sized piece of flat particle board. i lightly
> >>sanded the surface.
> >
> >
> > You did this before or AFTER the head was machined to flatten it?
> > Why would old gasket material need to be removed after machining to flatten
> > it? It should not BE there after machining. Besides,I believe you do NOT
> > want the mating surfaces to be polished(there's no need for it) because it
> > would reduce sealing to the gasket.
> >
> >
> >>the head surface seemed near perfect after being machined. there were
> >>no scrapes/scratches of much significance on the block that i could
> >>tell, but who knows. what do you mean by "impossible for a gas seal to
> >>be made?"
> >
> >
> >
> > The head would not clamp down on the GASKET sufficiently if polished or
> > polishing affected the levelness recreated by the machining.
> >
> sealing is much more effective with a /smooth/ surface. look at the
> mating surfaces on high pressure valves and artillery. you're right if
> "polishing" makes the surface deviate from completely flat, but the
> flatter & smoother the better.

Re: 91 civic - tough question about cooling
 

just to clarify, i didn't polish the head, i polished the block. i
never touched the head after it was machined.

small update:
i drove the car to work today which ends up being about 70 miles round
trip. at the end of my trip home (which is about a 2500 foot climb
into some mountains), i park the car, turn off the motor and i hear
silence for a time. which if i haven't been clear, is sort of normal
but sometimes i would have a little bubbling after parking and turning
off the motor.

it was clear though that this time there was no bubbling, even after a
hard drive. however, after about 10 or 15 seconds i start hearing the
slurping of the coolant past the rad cap. then the bubbling started.
so, *no* bubbling with engine running, and *bubbling* shortly after the
enginie is shut off.

i pulled the overflow tube out of the resevoir and noticed coolant
coming out in small quantities in time with the slurping sound. is it
possible that the recently shut down engine heats up slightly (i think
they do after shut down), thereby heating up coolant in the engine,
pushing coolant past the rad cap, but the flow is momentary (the
slurping) creating a small steam pocket in the overflow tube, which
then is manifested as bubbles in the overflow resevoir?

the rad cap is newish (~6 months old), but i have at least two other
ones that i may test to see if they perform differently.

i am now hopeful that the engine is okay since bubbling isn't ocurring
during engine operation.

thanks so much for all your input.

josh

jim beam wrote:
> Jim Yanik wrote:
> > larson.joshua@gmail.com wrote in
> > news:1150430858.954298.27930@h76g2000cwa.googlegro ups.com:
> >
> >
> >>>>i cleaned and lapped the surface of the block.
> >>>
> >>>how exactly did you do this?
> >>
> >>i scraped the block surface with a plastic scraper at first. then i
> >>used carb cleaner and a toothbrush to scrub off the remaining gasket
> >>crud. after it was fairly clean i used 600 grit sandpaper tightly
> >>stapled to an index card sized piece of flat particle board. i lightly
> >>sanded the surface.
> >
> >
> > You did this before or AFTER the head was machined to flatten it?
> > Why would old gasket material need to be removed after machining to flatten
> > it? It should not BE there after machining. Besides,I believe you do NOT
> > want the mating surfaces to be polished(there's no need for it) because it
> > would reduce sealing to the gasket.
> >
> >
> >>the head surface seemed near perfect after being machined. there were
> >>no scrapes/scratches of much significance on the block that i could
> >>tell, but who knows. what do you mean by "impossible for a gas seal to
> >>be made?"
> >
> >
> >
> > The head would not clamp down on the GASKET sufficiently if polished or
> > polishing affected the levelness recreated by the machining.
> >
> sealing is much more effective with a /smooth/ surface. look at the
> mating surfaces on high pressure valves and artillery. you're right if
> "polishing" makes the surface deviate from completely flat, but the
> flatter & smoother the better.