97 Accord LX 244K miles
 

I have a 97 Accord with 244K miles on it. I have no service records
with it but I did talk to the original owner. She says the timing belt was
replaces at about 190K. Nothing else but oil changes in the 8 years she had
it. Now I seem to have a water pump leaking, ripped CV boots with noise,
and leaky oil tubes or cam holder seals. I have already replaced the
radiator & hoses. Is this car worth sinking the money into it? I would do
most of the work myself. Maybe not the timing belt/waterpump. The car runs
& starts well with no oil usage. Any thoughts? Thanks.

Pat Callaghan

Re: 97 Accord LX 244K miles
 

From reading here and experience with my own Honda, going
through at least one set of outer CV boots with older Hondas
is the norm. With the noise, expect to need new CV joints as
well. At least one new radiator is usual, too.

A leaky water pump with Hondas is often associated with not
using OEM Honda coolant (or, for many of us, the equally
effective orange Havoline Dexcool). Was the water pump
changed when the timing belt was done?

Try to find out what year the TB was changed, btw, since it
is both miles and years that will deterimine when it is next
due.

In my experience (with my 91 Civic, original owner, and
reading here), sinking around $1000 into a Honda over a span
of a few years mid-life will give several more years of
relatively trouble free performance. Especially since you
say the engine seems sound, I would consider having this
major work done.

Please state exactly what kind of 97 Accord you have: manual
or auto, EX, DX, whatever, etc.

On the oil tube seals, are you getting oil in the spark plug
tubes? If so, see item 19 in
http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/...R+HEAD+%281%29

These O-rings do fail around 150k miles give or take. See
http://home.earthlink.net/~honda.lioness/id3.html for my
experience changing them out. I think most folks with
experience working on cars can do-it-themselves. I mean, if
I can, most any wrench-experienced dude/babe can.

"Patrick Callaghan" <patcal096@comcast.net> wrote
> I have a 97 Accord with 244K miles on it. I have no
> service records with it but I did talk to the original
> owner. She says the timing belt was replaces at about
> 190K. Nothing else but oil changes in the 8 years she had
> it. Now I seem to have a water pump leaking, ripped CV
> boots with noise, and leaky oil tubes or cam holder seals.
> I have already replaced the radiator & hoses. Is this car
> worth sinking the money into it? I would do most of the
> work myself. Maybe not the timing belt/waterpump. The
> car runs & starts well with no oil usage. Any thoughts?
> Thanks.
>
> Pat Callaghan
>

Re: 97 Accord LX 244K miles
 

From reading here and experience with my own Honda, going
through at least one set of outer CV boots with older Hondas
is the norm. With the noise, expect to need new CV joints as
well. At least one new radiator is usual, too.

A leaky water pump with Hondas is often associated with not
using OEM Honda coolant (or, for many of us, the equally
effective orange Havoline Dexcool). Was the water pump
changed when the timing belt was done?

Try to find out what year the TB was changed, btw, since it
is both miles and years that will deterimine when it is next
due.

In my experience (with my 91 Civic, original owner, and
reading here), sinking around $1000 into a Honda over a span
of a few years mid-life will give several more years of
relatively trouble free performance. Especially since you
say the engine seems sound, I would consider having this
major work done.

Please state exactly what kind of 97 Accord you have: manual
or auto, EX, DX, whatever, etc.

On the oil tube seals, are you getting oil in the spark plug
tubes? If so, see item 19 in
http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/...R+HEAD+%281%29

These O-rings do fail around 150k miles give or take. See
http://home.earthlink.net/~honda.lioness/id3.html for my
experience changing them out. I think most folks with
experience working on cars can do-it-themselves. I mean, if
I can, most any wrench-experienced dude/babe can.

"Patrick Callaghan" <patcal096@comcast.net> wrote
> I have a 97 Accord with 244K miles on it. I have no
> service records with it but I did talk to the original
> owner. She says the timing belt was replaces at about
> 190K. Nothing else but oil changes in the 8 years she had
> it. Now I seem to have a water pump leaking, ripped CV
> boots with noise, and leaky oil tubes or cam holder seals.
> I have already replaced the radiator & hoses. Is this car
> worth sinking the money into it? I would do most of the
> work myself. Maybe not the timing belt/waterpump. The
> car runs & starts well with no oil usage. Any thoughts?
> Thanks.
>
> Pat Callaghan
>

Re: 97 Accord LX 244K miles
 

From reading here and experience with my own Honda, going
through at least one set of outer CV boots with older Hondas
is the norm. With the noise, expect to need new CV joints as
well. At least one new radiator is usual, too.

A leaky water pump with Hondas is often associated with not
using OEM Honda coolant (or, for many of us, the equally
effective orange Havoline Dexcool). Was the water pump
changed when the timing belt was done?

Try to find out what year the TB was changed, btw, since it
is both miles and years that will deterimine when it is next
due.

In my experience (with my 91 Civic, original owner, and
reading here), sinking around $1000 into a Honda over a span
of a few years mid-life will give several more years of
relatively trouble free performance. Especially since you
say the engine seems sound, I would consider having this
major work done.

Please state exactly what kind of 97 Accord you have: manual
or auto, EX, DX, whatever, etc.

On the oil tube seals, are you getting oil in the spark plug
tubes? If so, see item 19 in
http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/...R+HEAD+%281%29

These O-rings do fail around 150k miles give or take. See
http://home.earthlink.net/~honda.lioness/id3.html for my
experience changing them out. I think most folks with
experience working on cars can do-it-themselves. I mean, if
I can, most any wrench-experienced dude/babe can.

"Patrick Callaghan" <patcal096@comcast.net> wrote
> I have a 97 Accord with 244K miles on it. I have no
> service records with it but I did talk to the original
> owner. She says the timing belt was replaces at about
> 190K. Nothing else but oil changes in the 8 years she had
> it. Now I seem to have a water pump leaking, ripped CV
> boots with noise, and leaky oil tubes or cam holder seals.
> I have already replaced the radiator & hoses. Is this car
> worth sinking the money into it? I would do most of the
> work myself. Maybe not the timing belt/waterpump. The
> car runs & starts well with no oil usage. Any thoughts?
> Thanks.
>
> Pat Callaghan
>

Re: 97 Accord LX 244K miles
 

From reading here and experience with my own Honda, going
through at least one set of outer CV boots with older Hondas
is the norm. With the noise, expect to need new CV joints as
well. At least one new radiator is usual, too.

A leaky water pump with Hondas is often associated with not
using OEM Honda coolant (or, for many of us, the equally
effective orange Havoline Dexcool). Was the water pump
changed when the timing belt was done?

Try to find out what year the TB was changed, btw, since it
is both miles and years that will deterimine when it is next
due.

In my experience (with my 91 Civic, original owner, and
reading here), sinking around $1000 into a Honda over a span
of a few years mid-life will give several more years of
relatively trouble free performance. Especially since you
say the engine seems sound, I would consider having this
major work done.

Please state exactly what kind of 97 Accord you have: manual
or auto, EX, DX, whatever, etc.

On the oil tube seals, are you getting oil in the spark plug
tubes? If so, see item 19 in
http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/...R+HEAD+%281%29

These O-rings do fail around 150k miles give or take. See
http://home.earthlink.net/~honda.lioness/id3.html for my
experience changing them out. I think most folks with
experience working on cars can do-it-themselves. I mean, if
I can, most any wrench-experienced dude/babe can.

"Patrick Callaghan" <patcal096@comcast.net> wrote
> I have a 97 Accord with 244K miles on it. I have no
> service records with it but I did talk to the original
> owner. She says the timing belt was replaces at about
> 190K. Nothing else but oil changes in the 8 years she had
> it. Now I seem to have a water pump leaking, ripped CV
> boots with noise, and leaky oil tubes or cam holder seals.
> I have already replaced the radiator & hoses. Is this car
> worth sinking the money into it? I would do most of the
> work myself. Maybe not the timing belt/waterpump. The
> car runs & starts well with no oil usage. Any thoughts?
> Thanks.
>
> Pat Callaghan
>

Re: 97 Accord LX 244K miles
 

It is a 97 LX Sedan with F22B2 engine with 5 speed. The previous owner
did not know anything beside the timing belt that had been changed. Since
the belt would come off for the water pump change I would do the whole
shebang. Seals, pensioners, belts, everything. Thanks for the response.

Pat

"Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:RmVjh.2910$pQ3.694@newsread4.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
> From reading here and experience with my own Honda, going through at least
> one set of outer CV boots with older Hondas is the norm. With the noise,
> expect to need new CV joints as well. At least one new radiator is usual,
> too.
>
> A leaky water pump with Hondas is often associated with not using OEM
> Honda coolant (or, for many of us, the equally effective orange Havoline
> Dexcool). Was the water pump changed when the timing belt was done?
>
> Try to find out what year the TB was changed, btw, since it is both miles
> and years that will deterimine when it is next due.
>
> In my experience (with my 91 Civic, original owner, and reading here),
> sinking around $1000 into a Honda over a span of a few years mid-life will
> give several more years of relatively trouble free performance. Especially
> since you say the engine seems sound, I would consider having this major
> work done.
>
> Please state exactly what kind of 97 Accord you have: manual or auto, EX,
> DX, whatever, etc.
>
> On the oil tube seals, are you getting oil in the spark plug tubes? If so,
> see item 19 in
> http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/...R+HEAD+%281%29
>
> These O-rings do fail around 150k miles give or take. See
> http://home.earthlink.net/~honda.lioness/id3.html for my experience
> changing them out. I think most folks with experience working on cars can
> do-it-themselves. I mean, if I can, most any wrench-experienced dude/babe
> can.

Re: 97 Accord LX 244K miles
 

It is a 97 LX Sedan with F22B2 engine with 5 speed. The previous owner
did not know anything beside the timing belt that had been changed. Since
the belt would come off for the water pump change I would do the whole
shebang. Seals, pensioners, belts, everything. Thanks for the response.

Pat

"Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:RmVjh.2910$pQ3.694@newsread4.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
> From reading here and experience with my own Honda, going through at least
> one set of outer CV boots with older Hondas is the norm. With the noise,
> expect to need new CV joints as well. At least one new radiator is usual,
> too.
>
> A leaky water pump with Hondas is often associated with not using OEM
> Honda coolant (or, for many of us, the equally effective orange Havoline
> Dexcool). Was the water pump changed when the timing belt was done?
>
> Try to find out what year the TB was changed, btw, since it is both miles
> and years that will deterimine when it is next due.
>
> In my experience (with my 91 Civic, original owner, and reading here),
> sinking around $1000 into a Honda over a span of a few years mid-life will
> give several more years of relatively trouble free performance. Especially
> since you say the engine seems sound, I would consider having this major
> work done.
>
> Please state exactly what kind of 97 Accord you have: manual or auto, EX,
> DX, whatever, etc.
>
> On the oil tube seals, are you getting oil in the spark plug tubes? If so,
> see item 19 in
> http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/...R+HEAD+%281%29
>
> These O-rings do fail around 150k miles give or take. See
> http://home.earthlink.net/~honda.lioness/id3.html for my experience
> changing them out. I think most folks with experience working on cars can
> do-it-themselves. I mean, if I can, most any wrench-experienced dude/babe
> can.

Re: 97 Accord LX 244K miles
 

It is a 97 LX Sedan with F22B2 engine with 5 speed. The previous owner
did not know anything beside the timing belt that had been changed. Since
the belt would come off for the water pump change I would do the whole
shebang. Seals, pensioners, belts, everything. Thanks for the response.

Pat

"Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:RmVjh.2910$pQ3.694@newsread4.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
> From reading here and experience with my own Honda, going through at least
> one set of outer CV boots with older Hondas is the norm. With the noise,
> expect to need new CV joints as well. At least one new radiator is usual,
> too.
>
> A leaky water pump with Hondas is often associated with not using OEM
> Honda coolant (or, for many of us, the equally effective orange Havoline
> Dexcool). Was the water pump changed when the timing belt was done?
>
> Try to find out what year the TB was changed, btw, since it is both miles
> and years that will deterimine when it is next due.
>
> In my experience (with my 91 Civic, original owner, and reading here),
> sinking around $1000 into a Honda over a span of a few years mid-life will
> give several more years of relatively trouble free performance. Especially
> since you say the engine seems sound, I would consider having this major
> work done.
>
> Please state exactly what kind of 97 Accord you have: manual or auto, EX,
> DX, whatever, etc.
>
> On the oil tube seals, are you getting oil in the spark plug tubes? If so,
> see item 19 in
> http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/...R+HEAD+%281%29
>
> These O-rings do fail around 150k miles give or take. See
> http://home.earthlink.net/~honda.lioness/id3.html for my experience
> changing them out. I think most folks with experience working on cars can
> do-it-themselves. I mean, if I can, most any wrench-experienced dude/babe
> can.

Re: 97 Accord LX 244K miles
 

It is a 97 LX Sedan with F22B2 engine with 5 speed. The previous owner
did not know anything beside the timing belt that had been changed. Since
the belt would come off for the water pump change I would do the whole
shebang. Seals, pensioners, belts, everything. Thanks for the response.

Pat

"Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:RmVjh.2910$pQ3.694@newsread4.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
> From reading here and experience with my own Honda, going through at least
> one set of outer CV boots with older Hondas is the norm. With the noise,
> expect to need new CV joints as well. At least one new radiator is usual,
> too.
>
> A leaky water pump with Hondas is often associated with not using OEM
> Honda coolant (or, for many of us, the equally effective orange Havoline
> Dexcool). Was the water pump changed when the timing belt was done?
>
> Try to find out what year the TB was changed, btw, since it is both miles
> and years that will deterimine when it is next due.
>
> In my experience (with my 91 Civic, original owner, and reading here),
> sinking around $1000 into a Honda over a span of a few years mid-life will
> give several more years of relatively trouble free performance. Especially
> since you say the engine seems sound, I would consider having this major
> work done.
>
> Please state exactly what kind of 97 Accord you have: manual or auto, EX,
> DX, whatever, etc.
>
> On the oil tube seals, are you getting oil in the spark plug tubes? If so,
> see item 19 in
> http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/...R+HEAD+%281%29
>
> These O-rings do fail around 150k miles give or take. See
> http://home.earthlink.net/~honda.lioness/id3.html for my experience
> changing them out. I think most folks with experience working on cars can
> do-it-themselves. I mean, if I can, most any wrench-experienced dude/babe
> can.

Re: 97 Accord LX 244K miles
 

Patrick Callaghan wrote:

> I have a 97 Accord with 244K miles on it. I have no service records
> with it but I did talk to the original owner. She says the timing belt was
> replaces at about 190K. Nothing else but oil changes in the 8 years she had
> it. Now I seem to have a water pump leaking, ripped CV boots with noise,
> and leaky oil tubes or cam holder seals. I have already replaced the
> radiator & hoses. Is this car worth sinking the money into it? I would do
> most of the work myself. Maybe not the timing belt/waterpump. The car runs
> & starts well with no oil usage. Any thoughts? Thanks.
>
> Pat Callaghan

Well, what condition is the body in? It sounds like the engine has much
more to give, if the rest of the car doesn't fall to pieces around it!

If you do your own work you're looking at what, maybe $4~500 for two
decent axles, a pump, belts, etc? That's around two months' payment on
a financed replacement.

Oil in the spark plug holes is a nuisance. Mine aren't too bad (yet),
and I can simply swab out the afflicted hole every few weeks. If the
engine starts to miss at low revs, I know I've been lazy...

IMO, if there are no other serious issues, I'd be inclined to give it at
least one more refresh.

-Greg

Re: 97 Accord LX 244K miles
 

Patrick Callaghan wrote:

> I have a 97 Accord with 244K miles on it. I have no service records
> with it but I did talk to the original owner. She says the timing belt was
> replaces at about 190K. Nothing else but oil changes in the 8 years she had
> it. Now I seem to have a water pump leaking, ripped CV boots with noise,
> and leaky oil tubes or cam holder seals. I have already replaced the
> radiator & hoses. Is this car worth sinking the money into it? I would do
> most of the work myself. Maybe not the timing belt/waterpump. The car runs
> & starts well with no oil usage. Any thoughts? Thanks.
>
> Pat Callaghan

Well, what condition is the body in? It sounds like the engine has much
more to give, if the rest of the car doesn't fall to pieces around it!

If you do your own work you're looking at what, maybe $4~500 for two
decent axles, a pump, belts, etc? That's around two months' payment on
a financed replacement.

Oil in the spark plug holes is a nuisance. Mine aren't too bad (yet),
and I can simply swab out the afflicted hole every few weeks. If the
engine starts to miss at low revs, I know I've been lazy...

IMO, if there are no other serious issues, I'd be inclined to give it at
least one more refresh.

-Greg

Re: 97 Accord LX 244K miles
 

Patrick Callaghan wrote:

> I have a 97 Accord with 244K miles on it. I have no service records
> with it but I did talk to the original owner. She says the timing belt was
> replaces at about 190K. Nothing else but oil changes in the 8 years she had
> it. Now I seem to have a water pump leaking, ripped CV boots with noise,
> and leaky oil tubes or cam holder seals. I have already replaced the
> radiator & hoses. Is this car worth sinking the money into it? I would do
> most of the work myself. Maybe not the timing belt/waterpump. The car runs
> & starts well with no oil usage. Any thoughts? Thanks.
>
> Pat Callaghan

Well, what condition is the body in? It sounds like the engine has much
more to give, if the rest of the car doesn't fall to pieces around it!

If you do your own work you're looking at what, maybe $4~500 for two
decent axles, a pump, belts, etc? That's around two months' payment on
a financed replacement.

Oil in the spark plug holes is a nuisance. Mine aren't too bad (yet),
and I can simply swab out the afflicted hole every few weeks. If the
engine starts to miss at low revs, I know I've been lazy...

IMO, if there are no other serious issues, I'd be inclined to give it at
least one more refresh.

-Greg

Re: 97 Accord LX 244K miles
 

Patrick Callaghan wrote:

> I have a 97 Accord with 244K miles on it. I have no service records
> with it but I did talk to the original owner. She says the timing belt was
> replaces at about 190K. Nothing else but oil changes in the 8 years she had
> it. Now I seem to have a water pump leaking, ripped CV boots with noise,
> and leaky oil tubes or cam holder seals. I have already replaced the
> radiator & hoses. Is this car worth sinking the money into it? I would do
> most of the work myself. Maybe not the timing belt/waterpump. The car runs
> & starts well with no oil usage. Any thoughts? Thanks.
>
> Pat Callaghan

Well, what condition is the body in? It sounds like the engine has much
more to give, if the rest of the car doesn't fall to pieces around it!

If you do your own work you're looking at what, maybe $4~500 for two
decent axles, a pump, belts, etc? That's around two months' payment on
a financed replacement.

Oil in the spark plug holes is a nuisance. Mine aren't too bad (yet),
and I can simply swab out the afflicted hole every few weeks. If the
engine starts to miss at low revs, I know I've been lazy...

IMO, if there are no other serious issues, I'd be inclined to give it at
least one more refresh.

-Greg

Re: 97 Accord LX 244K miles
 

On Mon, 25 Dec 2006 11:20:56 -0800, "Patrick Callaghan"
<patcal096@comcast.net> wrote:

> It is a 97 LX Sedan with F22B2 engine with 5 speed. The previous owner
>did not know anything beside the timing belt that had been changed. Since
>the belt would come off for the water pump change I would do the whole
>shebang. Seals, pensioners, belts, everything. Thanks for the response.
>
>Pat

It sounds like the mechanic that did the TB didn't change the water
pump at the same time. Too bad because this maintenance item could be
put off indefinitely otherwise. Use Honda parts including coolant and
you are good to go on that front.

If the noise isn't too bad, you might consider re greasing and
re-booting the CVs and see how far that gets you. Hopefully long
enough to save up for the proper repair.

The spark plug tube seals an valve cover seal are cheap and easy to
replace. Adjust the valves while you are at it.

Before you do any of this, inspect the vehicle for other problems and
service needs rust, tires, brakes shocks. If the list is too long,
you might think about how much you already have sunk into the car and
what other options you may have. That said, it is probably worth
fixing it up. Keep in mind that anything you buy in this price range
is going to need work sooner rather than later.



>"Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote in message
>news:RmVjh.2910$pQ3.694@newsread4.news.pas.earthl ink.net...
>> From reading here and experience with my own Honda, going through at least
>> one set of outer CV boots with older Hondas is the norm. With the noise,
>> expect to need new CV joints as well. At least one new radiator is usual,
>> too.
>>
>> A leaky water pump with Hondas is often associated with not using OEM
>> Honda coolant (or, for many of us, the equally effective orange Havoline
>> Dexcool). Was the water pump changed when the timing belt was done?
>>
>> Try to find out what year the TB was changed, btw, since it is both miles
>> and years that will deterimine when it is next due.
>>
>> In my experience (with my 91 Civic, original owner, and reading here),
>> sinking around $1000 into a Honda over a span of a few years mid-life will
>> give several more years of relatively trouble free performance. Especially
>> since you say the engine seems sound, I would consider having this major
>> work done.
>>
>> Please state exactly what kind of 97 Accord you have: manual or auto, EX,
>> DX, whatever, etc.
>>
>> On the oil tube seals, are you getting oil in the spark plug tubes? If so,
>> see item 19 in
>> http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/...R+HEAD+%281%29
>>
>> These O-rings do fail around 150k miles give or take. See
>> http://home.earthlink.net/~honda.lioness/id3.html for my experience
>> changing them out. I think most folks with experience working on cars can
>> do-it-themselves. I mean, if I can, most any wrench-experienced dude/babe
>> can.
>

Re: 97 Accord LX 244K miles
 

On Mon, 25 Dec 2006 11:20:56 -0800, "Patrick Callaghan"
<patcal096@comcast.net> wrote:

> It is a 97 LX Sedan with F22B2 engine with 5 speed. The previous owner
>did not know anything beside the timing belt that had been changed. Since
>the belt would come off for the water pump change I would do the whole
>shebang. Seals, pensioners, belts, everything. Thanks for the response.
>
>Pat

It sounds like the mechanic that did the TB didn't change the water
pump at the same time. Too bad because this maintenance item could be
put off indefinitely otherwise. Use Honda parts including coolant and
you are good to go on that front.

If the noise isn't too bad, you might consider re greasing and
re-booting the CVs and see how far that gets you. Hopefully long
enough to save up for the proper repair.

The spark plug tube seals an valve cover seal are cheap and easy to
replace. Adjust the valves while you are at it.

Before you do any of this, inspect the vehicle for other problems and
service needs rust, tires, brakes shocks. If the list is too long,
you might think about how much you already have sunk into the car and
what other options you may have. That said, it is probably worth
fixing it up. Keep in mind that anything you buy in this price range
is going to need work sooner rather than later.



>"Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote in message
>news:RmVjh.2910$pQ3.694@newsread4.news.pas.earthl ink.net...
>> From reading here and experience with my own Honda, going through at least
>> one set of outer CV boots with older Hondas is the norm. With the noise,
>> expect to need new CV joints as well. At least one new radiator is usual,
>> too.
>>
>> A leaky water pump with Hondas is often associated with not using OEM
>> Honda coolant (or, for many of us, the equally effective orange Havoline
>> Dexcool). Was the water pump changed when the timing belt was done?
>>
>> Try to find out what year the TB was changed, btw, since it is both miles
>> and years that will deterimine when it is next due.
>>
>> In my experience (with my 91 Civic, original owner, and reading here),
>> sinking around $1000 into a Honda over a span of a few years mid-life will
>> give several more years of relatively trouble free performance. Especially
>> since you say the engine seems sound, I would consider having this major
>> work done.
>>
>> Please state exactly what kind of 97 Accord you have: manual or auto, EX,
>> DX, whatever, etc.
>>
>> On the oil tube seals, are you getting oil in the spark plug tubes? If so,
>> see item 19 in
>> http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/...R+HEAD+%281%29
>>
>> These O-rings do fail around 150k miles give or take. See
>> http://home.earthlink.net/~honda.lioness/id3.html for my experience
>> changing them out. I think most folks with experience working on cars can
>> do-it-themselves. I mean, if I can, most any wrench-experienced dude/babe
>> can.
>