98 Civic Ignition Timing
 

Hello,

I have posted a similar message last week regarding my 98 Civic LX
ignition timing. I have originally replaced the distributor, but my
ignition timing was retarded by aprox 14 degrees. Thanks to the usefull
comments on this group, I have checked my timing belt alignment.
Because I wasn't sure if it was the original timing belt, I changed it
as well as the water pump. Less $100 for the next 90000 peace of mind.
When I put everything together, I've made sure that the camshaft and
everything else was properly alligned. After everything was put
together, I have checked my timing, while the service connector on the
passager side was jumpered, and it seemed to be perfect. The engine
pointer was alligned with the middle marker of the three when I first
started. I was happy, and I left the car running for about 10 minutes
because Haynes recomends to adjust the timing after the engine is warm
and the cooling fan starts. I walked away for 10 minutes with the car
running, but when I came back the timing was retarded again. It seemed
very weird especially that I've jumpered the service connector. I
thought that the timing belt jumped a tooth again. I checked the timing
belt alignment again and it seemed fine. The camshaft markers were
aligned with the cylinder head block and the crankshaft pulley was
poiting to the TDC mark (the white one). The car runs fine, without any
noticeable loss of power, but I'm a little worried about why my timing
is off. Right now the timing is.
V
||| |
Maybe I'm not jumpering the right service connector, but it is the one
that shows me emission control codes (flashing engine light). I don't
have any engine light codes though. I'm puzzled why the timing retarded
while I walked away from the car. I can't advance the distributor any
further. Is there another special disconnect for the ignition timing?

Thank you for your advice.

Re: 98 Civic Ignition Timing
 

<acioaca@lycos.com> wrote
> I was happy, and I left the car running for about 10 minutes
> because Haynes recomends to adjust the timing after the engine is warm
> and the cooling fan starts.

Little aside that could be a bit important:

Does your cooling fan really start after only ten minutes?

Even in summer-y weather, my 1991 Civic's radiator fan takes at least 35
minutes of idling before it comes on.

Re: 98 Civic Ignition Timing
 

acioaca@lycos.com wrote in
news:1128184561.622447.285890@g47g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com:


<snip>


> I'm a little worried about why my timing
> is off. Right now the timing is.
> V
>||| |
> Maybe I'm not jumpering the right service connector, but it is the one
> that shows me emission control codes (flashing engine light).


It's a 2-pin connector with brown and black wires. It's under the dash on
the passenger side.



> I don't
> have any engine light codes though. I'm puzzled why the timing retarded
> while I walked away from the car. I can't advance the distributor any
> further. Is there another special disconnect for the ignition timing?
>
> Thank you for your advice.
>
>


Are you sure you're connecting the timing light to the #1 plug wire? If the
light is inductive, make sure it's clipped to the plug wire as far as
possible from any other wire.

If you've been jumping the correct wire, you may be probably picking up the
signal from a different plug. (#3?)

If the above is true, your plug wires are electrically leaky and in need of
replacement (with OEM!).


--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: 98 Civic Ignition Timing
 

"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in
news:Xns96E284B50D25Ctegger@207.14.113.17:


>
> If you've been jumping the correct wire,


Typo: I meant to say jumping the correct under-dash CONNECTOR.

The timing connector and the Service Check connector appear to be the same
thing.



> you may be probably picking
> up the signal from a different plug. (#3?)
>
> If the above is true, your plug wires are electrically leaky and in
> need of replacement (with OEM!).
>
>



--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: 98 Civic Ignition Timing
 

After further investigating, I have found the following. Immediately as
the car starts the timing is ok. Then, the timing retards after 10-20
seconds. The service connector is jumpered because the engine light
stays on when the car starts. I've made sure not to be around any other
wires when testing. Right now, I'm connecting to the #1 wire close to
the spark plug end. The wires and spark plugs were replaced with new
ones while I was debugging the bad distributor problem. I've bought the
wires from Autozone, are they OEM? I will try to change with the old
ones. By the way I found a good link for replacing the timing belt:
http://www.hondatuningmagazine.com/tech/0406ht_timing/
Tegger, please add it the website so others can use it.
Thanks.

Re: 98 Civic Ignition Timing
 

acioaca@lycos.com wrote:
> After further investigating, I have found the following. Immediately as
> the car starts the timing is ok. Then, the timing retards after 10-20
> seconds. The service connector is jumpered because the engine light
> stays on when the car starts.

"because"??? what code are you getting?

> I've made sure not to be around any other
> wires when testing. Right now, I'm connecting to the #1 wire close to
> the spark plug end. The wires and spark plugs were replaced with new
> ones while I was debugging the bad distributor problem. I've bought the
> wires from Autozone, are they OEM? I will try to change with the old
> ones. By the way I found a good link for replacing the timing belt:
> http://www.hondatuningmagazine.com/tech/0406ht_timing/
> Tegger, please add it the website so others can use it.
> Thanks.
>

Re: 98 Civic Ignition Timing
 

I meant the engine light stays on when you have the service connector
jumpered. If there are errors it flashes. I don't have any codes and it
only stays on. When I pull out the service connector jumper, it goes
off. I think this is normal.

Re: 98 Civic Ignition Timing
 

acioaca@lycos.com wrote in
news:1128211156.028337.322650@f14g2000cwb.googlegr oups.com:

> After further investigating, I have found the following. Immediately as
> the car starts the timing is ok. Then, the timing retards after 10-20
> seconds.


You should have the engine *fully-warm* before you attempt to adjust the
timing. Go take it for a fifteen-minute drive first, THEN adjust the
timing.

If the engine is fully-warm, and the timing light is hooked up, and you
adjust the distributor so the timing marks are correctly lined up, and you
wait 10-15 seconds, does the timing then suddenly jump to retarded?



> The service connector is jumpered because the engine light
> stays on when the car starts. I've made sure not to be around any other
> wires when testing. Right now, I'm connecting to the #1 wire close to
> the spark plug end. The wires and spark plugs were replaced with new
> ones while I was debugging the bad distributor problem. I've bought the
> wires from Autozone, are they OEM?


NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They are aftermarket!!!!!!!!!!!

Go to the dealer for OEM. Although in this case it will make no difference
to what you're seeing with your timing.



> I will try to change with the old
> ones. By the way I found a good link for replacing the timing belt:
> http://www.hondatuningmagazine.com/tech/0406ht_timing/
> Tegger, please add it the website so others can use it.


Another thing to add to my list. Thanks for the link.


--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: 98 Civic Ignition Timing
 

acioaca@lycos.com wrote:
> I meant the engine light stays on when you have the service connector
> jumpered. If there are errors it flashes. I don't have any codes and it
> only stays on. When I pull out the service connector jumper, it goes
> off. I think this is normal.
>
go to a store that will read the codes stored in your ecu for you, or go
to sears & buy a $160 code reader for yourself. your onboard
diagnostics will tell you if there are any other problems before you
start messing about with the timing. and why did you change the
distributor? what code was stored then?

Re: 98 Civic Ignition Timing
 

jim beam wrote:
> acioaca@lycos.com wrote:
> > I meant the engine light stays on when you have the service connector
> > jumpered. If there are errors it flashes. I don't have any codes and it
> > only stays on. When I pull out the service connector jumper, it goes
> > off. I think this is normal.
> >
> go to a store that will read the codes stored in your ecu for you, or go
> to sears & buy a $160 code reader for yourself. your onboard
> diagnostics will tell you if there are any other problems before you
> start messing about with the timing. and why did you change the
> distributor? what code was stored then?

Jim

There were never any engine codes. After a serious rain over a weekend
the car stopped suddenly after 10 seconds after starting the following
monday. I have replaced the spark plugs, wires, distributor cap,
distributor rotor, ignition switch, map sensor, main relay and fuel
filter without any success. I was getting sparks on each wire when I
was cranking the car and the injectors were firing. Also I was hearing
the fuel pump working when the ignition was on. I didn't no what to do
so I took it to a shop for a diagnostic. They called me the next day
saying that the Kv were not consistent and offered to replace the
distributor. I refused, because it's cheaper to change it myself. When
I came to pick up my car from them, I drove it home, but they've told
me that they don't know how long it'll run. I've replaced the
distributor and now it runs even after it rains. The only issue I have
now is alligning the timing. Again, my engine light is not on unless I
jumper the service connector. That should be normal because that's how
you read the engine light flashes.

Re: 98 Civic Ignition Timing
 

acioaca@lycos.com wrote:
> jim beam wrote:
>
>>acioaca@lycos.com wrote:
>>
>>>I meant the engine light stays on when you have the service connector
>>>jumpered. If there are errors it flashes. I don't have any codes and it
>>>only stays on. When I pull out the service connector jumper, it goes
>>>off. I think this is normal.
>>>
>>
>>go to a store that will read the codes stored in your ecu for you, or go
>>to sears & buy a $160 code reader for yourself. your onboard
>>diagnostics will tell you if there are any other problems before you
>>start messing about with the timing. and why did you change the
>>distributor? what code was stored then?
>
>
> Jim
>
> There were never any engine codes. After a serious rain over a weekend
> the car stopped suddenly after 10 seconds after starting the following
> monday. I have replaced the spark plugs, wires, distributor cap,
> distributor rotor, ignition switch, map sensor, main relay and fuel
> filter without any success. I was getting sparks on each wire when I
> was cranking the car and the injectors were firing. Also I was hearing
> the fuel pump working when the ignition was on. I didn't no what to do
> so I took it to a shop for a diagnostic. They called me the next day
> saying that the Kv were not consistent and offered to replace the
> distributor. I refused, because it's cheaper to change it myself. When
> I came to pick up my car from them, I drove it home, but they've told
> me that they don't know how long it'll run. I've replaced the
> distributor and now it runs even after it rains. The only issue I have
> now is alligning the timing. Again, my engine light is not on unless I
> jumper the service connector. That should be normal because that's how
> you read the engine light flashes.
>

regarding codes, afaik, obdcII cars don't flash codes through the check
engine light - you need a diagnostic scanner that connects into the
obdcII plug in the driver's foot well. if you did read for codes with
the scanner and got nothing, great. but if you were having random
misfire problems, this is unlikely. check that next time before
replacing stuff!

regarding the new distributor timing, i return to the timing belt. the
ecu gets its firing signal from a sensor in the distributor, which is
connected to the cam, which is connected to the crank. afaik, there is
no way for the distributor to be just this little bit off without it
being a timing belt issue. iirc, there's 40 teeth in the cam pulley.
that's 9 degrees per tooth. one or two of those and you have your
timing difference. especially as you replaced the timing belt at the
same time as the problem appeared. sorry, but you have to take that
cover off again and sets the belts right. make sure you /ONLY/ turn the
crank anti-clockwise and set the belt tension correctly. per the honda
manual, "rotate the crankshaft counterclockwise 3 teeth on the camshaft
to create tension on the timing belt" before tightening the tension
pulley. if it's not tight enough, it'll jump.

once that's resolved and the timing's fixed again, notch the distributor
housing and cylinder head relative to each other. that way, if you ever
take the distributor off again, you'll be able to replace it in the
correct position. any variance subsequent to that will not be a
distributor problem!

for future reference, the "inconsistent kV" was almost certainly a
failing coil. that's a $70 fix that does not require distributor removal.

Re: 98 Civic Ignition Timing
 

jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in
news:6IednfOWmNS0D93eRVn-jA@speakeasy.net:

> acioaca@lycos.com wrote:
>> jim beam wrote:
>>

<snip>


>
> regarding codes, afaik, obdcII cars don't flash codes through the
> check engine light - you need a diagnostic scanner that connects into
> the obdcII plug in the driver's foot well.



Honda retained the flashing-light method at least up to the 2000 model
year. It's even in the factory manual.



> if you did read for codes
> with the scanner and got nothing, great. but if you were having
> random misfire problems, this is unlikely. check that next time
> before replacing stuff!
>
> regarding the new distributor timing, i return to the timing belt.
> the ecu gets its firing signal from a sensor in the distributor, which
> is connected to the cam, which is connected to the crank. afaik,
> there is no way for the distributor to be just this little bit off
> without it being a timing belt issue. iirc, there's 40 teeth in the
> cam pulley. that's 9 degrees per tooth. one or two of those and you
> have your timing difference. especially as you replaced the timing
> belt at the same time as the problem appeared. sorry, but you have to
> take that cover off again and sets the belts right. make sure you
> /ONLY/ turn the crank anti-clockwise and set the belt tension
> correctly. per the honda manual, "rotate the crankshaft
> counterclockwise 3 teeth on the camshaft to create tension on the
> timing belt" before tightening the tension pulley. if it's not tight
> enough, it'll jump.



Given the OP's report of a "sudden" change in timing, and given that he's
made sure he's not picking up the signal from an adjacent HT wire, I'd
agree it's got to be a timing belt tension issue.



--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: 98 Civic Ignition Timing
 

I have looked at the timing belt again. It is lined up on both the
camshaft and crankshaft. I noticed that it was a little loose between
the camshaft and crankshaft. I took jim's advice and I have loosened
the tensioner, spinned the crankshaft counterclockwise (about 3 teeth
on the camshaft) and tightened the tensioner. It seemed tighter then.
After I have put everything together, I'm having the same problem. Jim
said to only turn the crankspaft counterclockwise, but that would throw
off the alignment with the arrow on the engine block. If the belt is
installed, when I turn the crankshaft the camshaft will also turn. I
don't see how you'd only turn one without the other and still be on the
marks specified (cylinder block alignment for the camshaft and arrow
alignment for the crankshaft). It seems to me that the tensioner only
tightens the section between the crankshaft and water pump. What I mean
is that once it reaches a point, it can't tighten the region between
the water pump and camshaft. It would need to jump a tooth to tighten
it more. The region between water pump and camshaft seems a little
loose, but not enough to get one tooth out and give it to the tensioner
side. What are the specs for belt tensioning? Could I measure tension
myself with common tools?

Thanks for all your support.

Re: 98 Civic Ignition Timing
 

acioaca@lycos.com wrote:
> I have looked at the timing belt again. It is lined up on both the
> camshaft and crankshaft. I noticed that it was a little loose between
> the camshaft and crankshaft. I took jim's advice and I have loosened
> the tensioner, spinned the crankshaft counterclockwise (about 3 teeth
> on the camshaft) and tightened the tensioner. It seemed tighter then.
> After I have put everything together, I'm having the same problem. Jim
> said to only turn the crankspaft counterclockwise, but that would throw
> off the alignment with the arrow on the engine block.

that's because the timing's not set right!!! when it is set correctly,
the crank and cam are perfectly aligned with their timing marks when the
belt is fully tensioned.

> If the belt is
> installed, when I turn the crankshaft the camshaft will also turn.

???

> I
> don't see how you'd only turn one without the other and still be on the
> marks specified (cylinder block alignment for the camshaft and arrow
> alignment for the crankshaft).

see first comment above!!!

> It seems to me that the tensioner only
> tightens the section between the crankshaft and water pump. What I mean
> is that once it reaches a point, it can't tighten the region between
> the water pump and camshaft.

no. as far as a running engine is concerned, the cam is free to turn
and the crank is free to turn. in this situation, tension in any one
part of the belt is idential with any other part of the belt.

> It would need to jump a tooth to tighten
> it more. The region between water pump and camshaft seems a little
> loose, but not enough to get one tooth out and give it to the tensioner
> side. What are the specs for belt tensioning? Could I measure tension
> myself with common tools?

no. the tensioner pulley is spring loaded. if you follow the
tensioning procedure correctly, the spring loads the belt with exactly
the correct tension.

>
> Thanks for all your support.
>

Re: 98 Civic Ignition Timing
 

acioaca@lycos.com wrote in
news:1128391648.479204.113380@g49g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com:

> I have looked at the timing belt again. It is lined up on both the
> camshaft and crankshaft. I noticed that it was a little loose between
> the camshaft and crankshaft. I took jim's advice and I have loosened
> the tensioner, spinned the crankshaft counterclockwise (about 3 teeth
> on the camshaft) and tightened the tensioner. It seemed tighter then.
> After I have put everything together, I'm having the same problem. Jim
> said to only turn the crankspaft counterclockwise, but that would throw
> off the alignment with the arrow on the engine block.



I think we may have a failure to convey a concept here. Let me try again:

(Sorry for the capitals here; I'm not shouting, just highlighting certain
keywords).

To start off with, you MUST have the belt on with ALL the pulleys lining up
with their respective zero marks. That is Step One, which out which NOTHING
else will work.

At this point, it doesn't matter if the belt is tight or slack. Slack is
better, actually.

Since the belt is cogged, the pulleys cannot slip out of time with each
other unless the belt jumps a tooth, which is highly unlikely with it just
sitting there.

Now, the WHOLE POINT of the "three tooth" rotation is to place ALL THE
SLACK on the TENSIONER/WATER PUMP side of the crankshaft pulley. You want
it TIGHT between the CAM and CRANK, and LOOSE at the TENSIONER. The "three
tooth" rotation does this for you. And you need the slack to STAY on the
tensioner side, which you do by NOT LETTING GO OF THE WRENCH once you turn
three teeth.

Turning the crankshaft WILL move the cam too, but you ALREADY LINED THEM UP
before you put the belt on. So long as you turn COUNTERclockwise only THREE
TEETH, the risk of the belt jumping a tooth is non-existent, and the timing
will REMAIN AS YOU SET IT.

HOLDING the crank at the "three-tooth" rotation point, NOW you loosen the
tensioner. You need to hold the crank from springing back in order to make
sure ALL the slack STAYS on the TENSIONER side. If you turn it three teeth
then LET GO again, the slack will redistribute itself and you will still
have a loose belt. Use your foot or knee to hold the wrench if you need
your hands somewhere else.

If you've done this right, you will hear the tensioner give a little ZING
noise as its spring pulls it up. Retighten tensioner, let go of crank
wrench, check timing again.

THE END.

P.S.: There is another retensioning technique that involves pulling the
tensioner back down again, but we won't get into that just now.

--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/