98 civic sudden o2 sensor issues amongst other things HELP
 

Hi there,

1998 civic LX 270000kms (rolled that yesterday), 5 spd sedan.

This car has been bulletproof since I bought it new... never had a major
problem that was not covered by a TSB or warranty.

I am having what seem to be a number of unrelated issues.... am hoping this
is nothing too major...

Drove home in a major snow storm last night. Car performed well, and we got
home safely.

The next day, I started it normally, but the CEL came on, and the speedo was
whacked (even at a standstill). Every time I reved up the engine, the speedo
went for a loop, going all over the place with no real logic, from 0 to 220
and back. Very weird.

Next, I noticed that there was a slight surge in the idle. This was not
there before. I decided to take it to the store to see if it would clear
itself up.... perhaps some moisture found its way where it was not supposed
to? Inspected all connectors visible under the hood, nothing appears out of
the ordinary.

Have read that the whacky speedo problem can be caused by a grounding issue
and alternator issues. Checked my ground cable and VOILA! the clamp was
loose on the battery. Stuffed a nail in there and tightened her up... still
surging like crazy.

Ran my multimeter across the terminals at idle, it ranged from 12.4 - 12.8
volts.... a touch low... ?

I also found my code reader under the seat... so i plugged that in... it
threw P0135 and P0141. Primary and Secondary O2 sensor malfunction..... Let
the codes clear and they came right back.... what the hell?

In summary:

-Car surged at idle very mildly.
-Negative battery cable was loose. Tightened. No more surge that I could
notice.
-Voltage across battery terminals 12.4 - 12.8 volts at idle. (couldn't rev
it up as I had no assistance).
-Codes P0135 and P0141 for Primary and Secondary O2 sensors won't go away.

What could the above have to do with each other? What would you do to
diagnose this problem correctly?

I decided that I would give the battery a charge... if the alternator is
struggling, perhaps that would help... I will let it sit for a couple hours
and see where we end up.

Any input appreciated!

Terry in Winnipeg.
:)

--
Message posted via http://www.carkb.com

Re: 98 civic sudden o2 sensor issues amongst other things HELP
 

OK Update!

Did some more googling on the topic, and the alternator fuse came up. Sure
enough, mine was blown. I assume that it blew due to the short created by
the loose battery cable on the battery (which is now fixed).

In the article on google, it was also suggested that a short of 2 wires
underneath the intake manifold would cause future shorts which would blow the
fuse. I think I am OK in this regard as the short probably occured at the
negative battery terminal.

Let my code reader clear the O2 Sensor codes, and they did not come back, so
I think I am in business.

Any other input or experiences are appreciated.

Terry in Winnipeg.

loewent wrote:
>Hi there,
>
>1998 civic LX 270000kms (rolled that yesterday), 5 spd sedan.
>
>This car has been bulletproof since I bought it new... never had a major
>problem that was not covered by a TSB or warranty.
>
>I am having what seem to be a number of unrelated issues.... am hoping this
>is nothing too major...
>
>Drove home in a major snow storm last night. Car performed well, and we got
>home safely.
>
>The next day, I started it normally, but the CEL came on, and the speedo was
>whacked (even at a standstill). Every time I reved up the engine, the speedo
>went for a loop, going all over the place with no real logic, from 0 to 220
>and back. Very weird.
>
>Next, I noticed that there was a slight surge in the idle. This was not
>there before. I decided to take it to the store to see if it would clear
>itself up.... perhaps some moisture found its way where it was not supposed
>to? Inspected all connectors visible under the hood, nothing appears out of
>the ordinary.
>
>Have read that the whacky speedo problem can be caused by a grounding issue
>and alternator issues. Checked my ground cable and VOILA! the clamp was
>loose on the battery. Stuffed a nail in there and tightened her up... still
>surging like crazy.
>
>Ran my multimeter across the terminals at idle, it ranged from 12.4 - 12.8
>volts.... a touch low... ?
>
>I also found my code reader under the seat... so i plugged that in... it
>threw P0135 and P0141. Primary and Secondary O2 sensor malfunction..... Let
>the codes clear and they came right back.... what the hell?
>
>In summary:
>
>-Car surged at idle very mildly.
>-Negative battery cable was loose. Tightened. No more surge that I could
>notice.
>-Voltage across battery terminals 12.4 - 12.8 volts at idle. (couldn't rev
>it up as I had no assistance).
>-Codes P0135 and P0141 for Primary and Secondary O2 sensors won't go away.
>
>What could the above have to do with each other? What would you do to
>diagnose this problem correctly?
>
>I decided that I would give the battery a charge... if the alternator is
>struggling, perhaps that would help... I will let it sit for a couple hours
>and see where we end up.
>
>Any input appreciated!
>
>Terry in Winnipeg.
>:)

--
Message posted via CarKB.com
http://www.carkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx...-cars/200702/1

Re: 98 civic sudden o2 sensor issues amongst other things HELP
 

I'm back. Same problem as before.... :(

Any ideas out there? Some suggestions I have had (obvious shotgun approach):

-Alternator
-Battery
-Short in the wiring harness somewhere

Also, to add to previous info in this post, when I check voltage across the
terminals, the voltage does jump to 14.4 volts when the engine is revved up.
I am pretty sure this rules out the alternator...

Please help...

Thanks
Terry in Winnipeg

loewent wrote:
>OK Update!
>
>Did some more googling on the topic, and the alternator fuse came up. Sure
>enough, mine was blown. I assume that it blew due to the short created by
>the loose battery cable on the battery (which is now fixed).
>
>In the article on google, it was also suggested that a short of 2 wires
>underneath the intake manifold would cause future shorts which would blow the
>fuse. I think I am OK in this regard as the short probably occured at the
>negative battery terminal.
>
>Let my code reader clear the O2 Sensor codes, and they did not come back, so
>I think I am in business.
>
>Any other input or experiences are appreciated.
>
>Terry in Winnipeg.
>
>>Hi there,
>>
>[quoted text clipped - 52 lines]
>>Terry in Winnipeg.
>>:)

--
Message posted via CarKB.com
http://www.carkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx...-cars/200702/1

Re: 98 civic sudden o2 sensor issues amongst other things HELP
 

"loewent via CarKB.com" <u10197@uwe> wrote in news:6e69a56312bf6@uwe:

> I'm back. Same problem as before.... :(
>
> Any ideas out there? Some suggestions I have had (obvious shotgun
> approach):
>
> -Alternator
> -Battery
> -Short in the wiring harness somewhere
>



You may be right on the last one. Honda has a TSB on exactly this (99-029).

Engine wiring harness is rubbing and shorting on the engine block. This is
the part of the harness that is under the intake manifold, between the
manifold and its diagonal bracket. you're supposed to put a section of
corrugated plastic wiring tubing over the section that's rubbing.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: 98 civic sudden o2 sensor issues amongst other things HELP
 

Will give this a shot today.

Seems like a mickey-mouse kinda repair... electrical tape and corrugated
tubing?

Will report back...

t

Tegger wrote:
>> I'm back. Same problem as before.... :(
>>
>[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>> -Battery
>> -Short in the wiring harness somewhere
>
>You may be right on the last one. Honda has a TSB on exactly this (99-029).
>
>Engine wiring harness is rubbing and shorting on the engine block. This is
>the part of the harness that is under the intake manifold, between the
>manifold and its diagonal bracket. you're supposed to put a section of
>corrugated plastic wiring tubing over the section that's rubbing.
>

--
Message posted via CarKB.com
http://www.carkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx...-cars/200702/1

Re: 98 civic sudden o2 sensor issues amongst other things HELP
 

"loewent via CarKB.com" <u10197@uwe> wrote in news:6e6f38c3e0bff@uwe:

> Will give this a shot today.
>
> Seems like a mickey-mouse kinda repair... electrical tape and
> corrugated tubing?

those spiral tubings are commonly used in custom audio installations,they
make the job look professional. and the plastic is heavier and wears less
than the wire insulation,and can be easily replaced if needed.
instead of tape,you can use heatshrink tubing for damaged insulation on
individual wires.there's lso a heatshrink tape,so you don't have to cut and
resolder wires to get the HS tubing on.

you might consider the use of cable ties to hold the wire harness AWAY from
the rubbing points.(in addition to the spiral tubing.)

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

>
> Will report back...
>
> t
>
> Tegger wrote:
>>> I'm back. Same problem as before.... :(
>>>
>>[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>>> -Battery
>>> -Short in the wiring harness somewhere
>>
>>You may be right on the last one. Honda has a TSB on exactly this
>>(99-029).
>>
>>Engine wiring harness is rubbing and shorting on the engine block.
>>This is the part of the harness that is under the intake manifold,
>>between the manifold and its diagonal bracket. you're supposed to put
>>a section of corrugated plastic wiring tubing over the section that's
>>rubbing.
>>
>

Re: 98 civic sudden o2 sensor issues amongst other things HELP
 

"loewent via CarKB.com" <u10197@uwe> wrote in news:6e6f38c3e0bff@uwe:

> Tegger wrote:
>>> I'm back. Same problem as before.... :(
>>>
>>[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>>> -Battery
>>> -Short in the wiring harness somewhere
>>
>>You may be right on the last one. Honda has a TSB on exactly this
>>(99-029).
>>
>>Engine wiring harness is rubbing and shorting on the engine block.
>>This is the part of the harness that is under the intake manifold,
>>between the manifold and its diagonal bracket. you're supposed to put
>>a section of corrugated plastic wiring tubing over the section that's
>>rubbing.
>>
>

> Will give this a shot today.
>
> Seems like a mickey-mouse kinda repair... electrical tape and
> corrugated tubing?



Yeah, seems mickey-mouse for sure, but hardly unsual. Such fudge-fixes
abound. In at least one case, Honda even has you loosening the front
subframe and levering it to the right by 3mm to correct a camber problem.

Read enough TSBs from all manufacturers and you start to realize how often
automakers employ fudge-fixes to correct problems created during design and
assembly. The primary aim? To limit the cost of the fix!

Another one: Certain Accords had a problem with creaking noises on
acceleration. Solution? Remove exhaust, scrape off body paint in the
transmission tunnel, then add two welds in the afflicted location. Seems
the factory forgot to put those welds in during assembly.

In your case, it's the same sort of slitted corrugated tubing the industry
uses as a matter of course these days. It's a hard...I don't know
what...vinyl? HDPE? polypro? You can find it everywhere, even at the
Winterpegger's favorite Princess Auto.




--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: 98 civic sudden o2 sensor issues amongst other things HELP
 

One thing Princess Auto does not have.... 7.5amp mini fuses...

Its a weird store, but a good store.... :)

I performed the mickey mouse fix, and zip tied the crap outta the harness
where ever possible to prevent future rubbing. Used Thermal/Weatherproof
electrical tape (wish it was more adhesive in cold weather, but I made it
work).

I took a picture of the bare wire, as well as a perspective photo to see
where I made the fix. Will try to find an appropriate place to post this
once I download it to my computer. Tegger, any good places to post?

t

Tegger wrote:
>>>> I'm back. Same problem as before.... :(
>>>>
>[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>>>a section of corrugated plastic wiring tubing over the section that's
>>>rubbing.
>
>> Will give this a shot today.
>>
>> Seems like a mickey-mouse kinda repair... electrical tape and
>> corrugated tubing?
>
>Yeah, seems mickey-mouse for sure, but hardly unsual. Such fudge-fixes
>abound. In at least one case, Honda even has you loosening the front
>subframe and levering it to the right by 3mm to correct a camber problem.
>
>Read enough TSBs from all manufacturers and you start to realize how often
>automakers employ fudge-fixes to correct problems created during design and
>assembly. The primary aim? To limit the cost of the fix!
>
>Another one: Certain Accords had a problem with creaking noises on
>acceleration. Solution? Remove exhaust, scrape off body paint in the
>transmission tunnel, then add two welds in the afflicted location. Seems
>the factory forgot to put those welds in during assembly.
>
>In your case, it's the same sort of slitted corrugated tubing the industry
>uses as a matter of course these days. It's a hard...I don't know
>what...vinyl? HDPE? polypro? You can find it everywhere, even at the
>Winterpegger's favorite Princess Auto.
>

--
Message posted via CarKB.com
http://www.carkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx...-cars/200702/1

Re: 98 civic sudden o2 sensor issues amongst other things HELP
 

"loewent via CarKB.com" wrote:
<snip>

> I performed the mickey mouse fix, and zip tied the crap outta the harness
> where ever possible to prevent future rubbing. Used Thermal/Weatherproof
> electrical tape (wish it was more adhesive in cold weather, but I made it
> work).

<snip>

As long as the wires are not pulled taut. There needs to be enough slack
that you don't pull any tension on the wires as the car is bouncing
around. Some manufacturer, don't remember which, had a recall because a
wire loom was pulled to taut and wires would break at the connector end.

Re: 98 civic sudden o2 sensor issues amongst other things HELP
 

"loewent via CarKB.com" <u10197@uwe> wrote in news:6e769a00d3456@uwe:

> One thing Princess Auto does not have.... 7.5amp mini fuses...
>
> Its a weird store, but a good store.... :)
>
> I performed the mickey mouse fix, and zip tied the crap outta the
> harness where ever possible to prevent future rubbing. Used
> Thermal/Weatherproof electrical tape (wish it was more adhesive in
> cold weather, but I made it work).



But did the fix work?


>
> I took a picture of the bare wire, as well as a perspective photo to
> see where I made the fix. Will try to find an appropriate place to
> post this once I download it to my computer. Tegger, any good places
> to post?



Send it to me. I can place it in my Misc folder so everybody can see it.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: 98 civic sudden o2 sensor issues amongst other things HELP
 

so far so good. As you will see in the pic, it was a huge break in the wire,
I am surprised this problem did not manifest itself a lot earlier.

Before, if I replaced the alternator fuse, we could run the vehicle for about
20 minutes before the fuse would pop. It was either that or when we got to
some moisture, usually right when we got to the city (I live 20 minutes
outside the city), or yesterday when I took it through the touchless wash
before I was about to try and fix it.

I am taking the car to work today, so we shall see.

t

Tegger wrote:
>> One thing Princess Auto does not have.... 7.5amp mini fuses...
>>
>[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>> Thermal/Weatherproof electrical tape (wish it was more adhesive in
>> cold weather, but I made it work).
>
>But did the fix work?
>
>> I took a picture of the bare wire, as well as a perspective photo to
>> see where I made the fix. Will try to find an appropriate place to
>> post this once I download it to my computer. Tegger, any good places
>> to post?
>
>Send it to me. I can place it in my Misc folder so everybody can see it.
>

--
Message posted via http://www.carkb.com

Re: 98 civic sudden o2 sensor issues amongst other things HELP
 

"loewent via CarKB.com" <u10197@uwe> wrote in news:6e7ae316b01e2@uwe:

> so far so good. As you will see in the pic, it was a huge break in
> the wire, I am surprised this problem did not manifest itself a lot
> earlier.
>
> Before, if I replaced the alternator fuse, we could run the vehicle
> for about 20 minutes before the fuse would pop. It was either that or
> when we got to some moisture, usually right when we got to the city (I
> live 20 minutes outside the city), or yesterday when I took it through
> the touchless wash before I was about to try and fix it.
>
> I am taking the car to work today, so we shall see.



Got your email.

The files are here for now:
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/..._mil%26fuse15/



--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: 98 civic sudden o2 sensor issues amongst other things HELP
 

these harnesses are pretty tight as is... too much slack is what caused the
problem in the first place.

t

Randolph wrote:
><snip>
>
>> I performed the mickey mouse fix, and zip tied the crap outta the harness
>> where ever possible to prevent future rubbing. Used Thermal/Weatherproof
>> electrical tape (wish it was more adhesive in cold weather, but I made it
>> work).
>
><snip>
>
>As long as the wires are not pulled taut. There needs to be enough slack
>that you don't pull any tension on the wires as the car is bouncing
>around. Some manufacturer, don't remember which, had a recall because a
>wire loom was pulled to taut and wires would break at the connector end.

--
Message posted via CarKB.com
http://www.carkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx...-cars/200702/1

Re: 98 civic sudden o2 sensor issues amongst other things HELP
 

"loewent via CarKB.com" <u10197@uwe> wrote in news:6e7c4a02d0f06@uwe:


> Randolph wrote:
>><snip>
>>
>>> I performed the mickey mouse fix, and zip tied the crap outta the
>>> harness where ever possible to prevent future rubbing. Used
>>> Thermal/Weatherproof electrical tape (wish it was more adhesive in
>>> cold weather, but I made it work).
>>
>><snip>
>>
>>As long as the wires are not pulled taut. There needs to be enough
>>slack that you don't pull any tension on the wires as the car is
>>bouncing around. Some manufacturer, don't remember which, had a recall
>>because a wire loom was pulled to taut and wires would break at the
>>connector end.
>
>
> these harnesses are pretty tight as is... too much slack is what
> caused the problem in the first place.
>
>



Automakers go to extreme lengths to make sure the wiring does not move.

If the wiring must be allowed to move, it must move in such a way that
movement does not cause abrasion or flexure of the wire at the crimp
connections. Flexure will cause internal breakage, which can be difficult
to locate.

The best thing you can do to ensure electrical happiness for your car is to
make 100% certain that wires and connectors are never allowed to dangle or
vibrate. If the stock fixings fall off or break, use zip ties (or something
else) to re-secure the wires at that location. This becomes especially
important as the car ages and wire insulation hardens.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/