Advice on replacing 94-97 Accord muffler? Dealing with rubber hangers?
 

I'd like to replace the muffler on my 94 Accord LX with either a
Honda part or one made by Bosal (281-365). But in looking carefully
at how the original muffler is mounted, I see that there are three
oval rubber hangers that hold the muffler in place. It's not clear
how I would deal with these hangers. The metal bars that go into
the holes in the hangers are welded to the car or the muffler, and
the hangers don't look very stretchy. Do they just "persuade" on
and off with enough force, or is there some trick I don't know
about?

Any other advice on doing this job? I'm planning on needing new
nuts/bolts and a new gasket. Actually, it looks pretty
straightforward if I can figure out how to deal with the hangers.

Thanks for any advice.

Re: Advice on replacing 94-97 Accord muffler? Dealing with rubber hangers?
 

Peabody <waybackNO784SPAM44@yahoo.com> wrote in news:O7WTm.88269$rE5.33924
@newsfe08.iad:

> I'd like to replace the muffler on my 94 Accord LX with either a
> Honda part or one made by Bosal (281-365). But in looking carefully
> at how the original muffler is mounted, I see that there are three
> oval rubber hangers that hold the muffler in place. It's not clear
> how I would deal with these hangers. The metal bars that go into
> the holes in the hangers are welded to the car or the muffler, and
> the hangers don't look very stretchy. Do they just "persuade" on
> and off with enough force, or is there some trick I don't know
> about?



They just "persuade off". The rubber is extremely tough, so don't worry
about tearing them. But with your car's age, it wouldn't be a bad idea at
all to buy new ones (about $5 each) from the dealer.

When reinstalling, use some dishwashing liquid as a lube to make everything
slide back together again.

Sand off the rust from the metal bars that are attached to the car's body.
This will reduce their effective diameters so as to make it easier to get
the hangers back onto the wires.

A couple of screwdrivers as "helpers" is also handy.

If you plan on keeping the car for a long time, I would STRONGLY suggest
the OEM Honda part in spite of the cost. It's /far/ better quality than any
aftermarket, and the purchase price comes with a lifetime guarantee that
puts the aftermarket to shame.

Remember that the Honda part is one-piece from the back of the B-pipe to
the tailpipe. And you'll notice the hangers are far more robust than
aftermarket.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: Advice on replacing 94-97 Accord muffler? Dealing with rubber hangers?
 

Tegger says...

> They just "persuade off". The rubber is extremely tough,
> so don't worry about tearing them. But with your car's
> age, it wouldn't be a bad idea at all to buy new ones
> (about $5 each) from the dealer.

Thanks very much for the clarification, Tegger.

> If you plan on keeping the car for a long time, I would
> STRONGLY suggest the OEM Honda part in spite of the
> cost. It's /far/ better quality than any aftermarket,
> and the purchase price comes with a lifetime guarantee
> that puts the aftermarket to shame.

Well, what I'm looking at is a direct-fit replacement made
by Bosal. These are available at RockAuto for about $90,
that's for #281-365, and a Honda would be $219 at the
dealer, or maybe $150 online. But the Bosal is not a
generic oval can. It looks exactly like the Honda muffler,
installs the same way, and supposedly is made of aluminzed
steel, whatever that means.

Is there a chance the Bosal would be the same quality as
Honda, or that Bosal is even the Honda US muffler supplier?

http://www.bosalna.com/index.php?mod=exhaust

But,if you were going to buy a genuine Honda muffler, where
would you shop for the best price?

If I have this done by a local shop (not the dealer), I'm
looking at $275 for a Honda muffler, installed. I'm pretty
handy, but of course don't have a lift. So I have mixed
feelings about trying this myself. In theory it should be
doable - I have the right sockets for the front bolts, and
if I can persuade the rubber hangers, I really don't see why
it wouldn't work. It would be nice to save all that money
for maybe an hour's work.

Re: Advice on replacing 94-97 Accord muffler? Dealing with rubber hangers?
 

"Peabody" <waybackNO784SPAM44@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:9cZTm.49774$ky1.6239@newsfe14.iad...
> Tegger says...
>
> > They just "persuade off". The rubber is extremely tough,
> > so don't worry about tearing them. But with your car's
> > age, it wouldn't be a bad idea at all to buy new ones
> > (about $5 each) from the dealer.
>
> Thanks very much for the clarification, Tegger.
>
> > If you plan on keeping the car for a long time, I would
> > STRONGLY suggest the OEM Honda part in spite of the
> > cost. It's /far/ better quality than any aftermarket,
> > and the purchase price comes with a lifetime guarantee
> > that puts the aftermarket to shame.
>
> Well, what I'm looking at is a direct-fit replacement made
> by Bosal. These are available at RockAuto for about $90,
> that's for #281-365, and a Honda would be $219 at the
> dealer, or maybe $150 online. But the Bosal is not a
> generic oval can. It looks exactly like the Honda muffler,
> installs the same way, and supposedly is made of aluminzed
> steel, whatever that means.
>
> Is there a chance the Bosal would be the same quality as
> Honda, or that Bosal is even the Honda US muffler supplier?
>
> http://www.bosalna.com/index.php?mod=exhaust
>
> But,if you were going to buy a genuine Honda muffler, where
> would you shop for the best price?
>
> If I have this done by a local shop (not the dealer), I'm
> looking at $275 for a Honda muffler, installed. I'm pretty
> handy, but of course don't have a lift. So I have mixed
> feelings about trying this myself. In theory it should be
> doable - I have the right sockets for the front bolts, and
> if I can persuade the rubber hangers, I really don't see why
> it wouldn't work. It would be nice to save all that money
> for maybe an hour's work.
>
>

Don't forget, it's about $50 a knuckle these days, so if you draw
blood on 3 or 4, the dealer cost starts to look a lot better!

Re: Advice on replacing 94-97 Accord muffler? Dealing with rubber hangers?
 

Peabody <waybackNO784SPAM44@yahoo.com> wrote in news:9cZTm.49774$ky1.6239
@newsfe14.iad:


>
> Well, what I'm looking at is a direct-fit replacement made
> by Bosal. These are available at RockAuto for about $90,
> that's for #281-365, and a Honda would be $219 at the
> dealer, or maybe $150 online. But the Bosal is not a
> generic oval can. It looks exactly like the Honda muffler,
> installs the same way, and supposedly is made of aluminzed
> steel, whatever that means.
>
> Is there a chance the Bosal would be the same quality as
> Honda, or that Bosal is even the Honda US muffler supplier?



Bosal is indeed a Honda OEM supplier, but that doesn't mean they sell the
same quality into the aftermarket that they do to Honda. FRAM is also a
Honda supplier, but are their aftermarket filters the same as what they
sell to Honda?

It's highly unlikely the aftermarket part is exactly the same as the Honda
one. Don't just look at the can, look also at the rest of the system. Is
the steel of equal thickness and quality? Are the hangers exactly the same?
Are the mounting flanges exactly the same? Are the welds of equal quality?



>
> http://www.bosalna.com/index.php?mod=exhaust
>
> But,if you were going to buy a genuine Honda muffler, where
> would you shop for the best price?



Any Honda dealer. Nobody but a Honda dealer can sell Honda parts. Ask all
the dealers in your area for their price.



>
> If I have this done by a local shop (not the dealer), I'm
> looking at $275 for a Honda muffler, installed.



It won't be OEM Honda, but an aftermarket "OEM spec" muffler. "OEM spec"
means they tried a (very) little bit harder to make it less crappy than
their usual aftermarket .



--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: Advice on replacing 94-97 Accord muffler? Dealing with rubberhangers?
 

I purchased a Walker muffler and pipe from Rockauto.com for my '96
Accord. Looks and fit like the stock unit. Reused the rubber
hangars, but got new gaskets and bolts as well as a stainless tip.
Nice and quiet again.! They were offereing a $40 rebate on the
muffler when I purchased it.

Re: Advice on replacing 94-97 Accord muffler? Dealing with rubberhangers?
 

Tegger wrote:
> Peabody <waybackNO784SPAM44@yahoo.com> wrote in news:9cZTm.49774$ky1.6239
> @newsfe14.iad:
>
>
>> Well, what I'm looking at is a direct-fit replacement made
>> by Bosal. These are available at RockAuto for about $90,
>> that's for #281-365, and a Honda would be $219 at the
>> dealer, or maybe $150 online. But the Bosal is not a
>> generic oval can. It looks exactly like the Honda muffler,
>> installs the same way, and supposedly is made of aluminzed
>> steel, whatever that means.
>>
>> Is there a chance the Bosal would be the same quality as
>> Honda, or that Bosal is even the Honda US muffler supplier?
>
> Bosal is indeed a Honda OEM supplier, but that doesn't mean they sell the
> same quality into the aftermarket that they do to Honda. FRAM is also a
> Honda supplier, but are their aftermarket filters the same as what they
> sell to Honda?
>
> It's highly unlikely the aftermarket part is exactly the same as the Honda
> one. Don't just look at the can, look also at the rest of the system. Is
> the steel of equal thickness and quality? Are the hangers exactly the same?
> Are the mounting flanges exactly the same? Are the welds of equal quality?
>
>> http://www.bosalna.com/index.php?mod=exhaust
>>
>> But,if you were going to buy a genuine Honda muffler, where
>> would you shop for the best price?
>
> Any Honda dealer. Nobody but a Honda dealer can sell Honda parts. Ask all
> the dealers in your area for their price.
>
>> If I have this done by a local shop (not the dealer), I'm
>> looking at $275 for a Honda muffler, installed.
>
> It won't be OEM Honda, but an aftermarket "OEM spec" muffler. "OEM spec"
> means they tried a (very) little bit harder to make it less crappy than
> their usual aftermarket .

For the vast majority of aftermarket exhaust parts, I agree with your
assessment. Many are poorly made and do not last nearly a long as OEM.
I also agree that OEM oil filters are usually worth the slight extra
cost, and I have never put an aftermarket filter on a Honda.

However, for our early 90's Hondas (a Civic and an Accord), I have seen
_no_ significant difference in lifetime between Bosal exhaust parts and
Honda parts. In fact, the original B pipe failed *under warranty* on
the Accord, then less than three years old, at 35,950 miles. (Enough
warranty miles left to make it home from work and then to the nearest
dealer with a few to go. Perfect timing!) This is on a car that makes
a minimum one-way trip of about 17 miles, too, not an around-town car
that never gets the exhaust hot enough to boil off the water when the
weather is cold.

The Bosal pipes, mufflers, and resonators are well made and have always
bolted up perfectly to both other Bosal pipes and Honda pipes. The only
significant difference I can see is that the OEM pipes have flanged
hangers (to help hold the rubber donuts on) and the Bosal pipes have
straight hangers bent at the end for retention instead (no, they do not
fall off).

Had I known the car would last this long, I'd have invested in a
stainless steel exhaust for the Accord long ago...

All that said, does the lifetime warranty apply to all new Honda exhaust
parts, including those for older cars? If so, I might reconsider using
Honda parts next time (though all the pipes are now under a year old, so
it will be some time before then).

--
JRE

Re: Advice on replacing 94-97 Accord muffler? Dealing with rubber hangers?
 

JRE <nothing@nowhere.invalid> wrote in
news:hfs528$31b$1@news.eternal-september.org:


>
> All that said, does the lifetime warranty apply to all new Honda
> exhaust parts, including those for older cars?



Yes it does, provided you're replacing a replacment Honda part with another
replacment Honda part.

You also need your original bill of sale, or the dealer needs to be able to
find the previous repair in their system.



> If so, I might
> reconsider using Honda parts next time (though all the pipes are now
> under a year old, so it will be some time before then).
>


I, frankly, have had different experiences from you for aftermarket exhaust
parts. Maybe Bosal is better, I don't know. And frankly, I don't want to
risk it.

My exhaust was 100% OEM until a couple of years ago.

When my OEM cat rusted out a couple of years ago, I had to buy an
aftermarket one (a Walker) because new OEM is no longer available for my
car. During the repair, the shop discovered the A and B-pipes were also
rusted through, so they replaced them, without asking me, also with Walker
parts.

In the afternoon I came to pick the car up. I peeked undeneath before going
in to pay and saw the new B-pipe, which DID NOT FIT at all. The hanger
rubbers were all pulled well forwards and off to one side.
Plus the hangers and mounting flanges were hokey little things that were
nothing like the OEM fittings.

They ended up replacing the new Walker B-pipe with a new OEM B-pipe (no
extra charge to me), which DOES fit properly. The hangers are now straight.
The Walker A-pipe remains. It doesn't quite fit either, meaning that by the
time the assembly gets to the tailpipe, the tailpipes are slightly
misaligned in their bumper aperture, whereas before they were dead-center.

The Walker A-pipe is a piece of crap. When the (very weak) hanger flange
finally breaks off, a new OEM A-pipe is going in and I'll be down to the
cat as being the only aftermarket part in the system.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: Advice on replacing 94-97 Accord muffler? Dealing with rubberhangers?
 

JRE says...

> However, for our early 90's Hondas (a Civic and an
> Accord), I have seen _no_ significant difference in
> lifetime between Bosal exhaust parts and Honda parts.

JRE, did you do the installations yourself? I'm willing to
take a chance on the quality of the Bosal muffler
and install it myself (saving about $150 in the process),
but am just a bit goosey about being able to do the
installation with only the OEM jack to work with. The
hanger in front of the muffler looks like it might be
particularly difficult to get to.

Is the precedure to mount the muffler on the hangers first
and then do the gasket and flange bolts, or the other way
around?

Re: Advice on replacing 94-97 Accord muffler? Dealing with rubber hangers?
 

"Peabody" <waybackNO746SPAM44@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:009e22e8$0$26910$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
> but am just a bit goosey about being able to do the
> installation with only the OEM jack to work with. The


Never get under the car using the OEM jack that it came with. That thing is
(barely) sufficient/safe for changing a flat (for which it was intended and
you don't get under the car). Getting under the car using that piece of
garbage is very dangerous.

Re: Advice on replacing 94-97 Accord muffler? Dealing with rubber hangers?
 

Seth says...

>> but am just a bit goosey about being able to do the
>> installation with only the OEM jack to work with. The

> Never get under the car using the OEM jack that it came
> with. That thing is (barely) sufficient/safe for
> changing a flat (for which it was intended and you don't
> get under the car). Getting under the car using that
> piece of garbage is very dangerous.

Sorry, I didn't say that right. What I would do is jack up
the rear end one side at a time, and put concrete paving
stones under the tires, and lower the car onto them, with
the front wheels blocked. But I can probably only get six
inches or so of extra room doing it that way, not like being
able to work under a lift. Never having done this before, I
just don't know if that's enough room to work with.

Re: Advice on replacing 94-97 Accord muffler? Dealing with rubber hangers?
 

Peabody <waybackNO746SPAM44@yahoo.com> wrote in news:00d0cd1e$0$27955
$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com:

> Seth says...
>
> >> but am just a bit goosey about being able to do the
> >> installation with only the OEM jack to work with. The
>
> > Never get under the car using the OEM jack that it came
> > with. That thing is (barely) sufficient/safe for
> > changing a flat (for which it was intended and you don't
> > get under the car). Getting under the car using that
> > piece of garbage is very dangerous.
>
> Sorry, I didn't say that right. What I would do is jack up
> the rear end one side at a time, and put concrete paving
> stones under the tires,



Still a very bad idea.

There's a guy who posts in rec.autos.tech who's in the middle of restoring
an '80 Civic. He had the car up on concrete blocks. It fell off while he
was working on it. Good thing he wasn't under the car at the time.

Do the job properly, or don't do it at all. If you're not prepared to buy
and use the correct tools, don't do the job.




> and lower the car onto them, with
> the front wheels blocked. But I can probably only get six
> inches or so of extra room doing it that way, not like being
> able to work under a lift. Never having done this before, I
> just don't know if that's enough room to work with.



The more room the better. Six inches will have you gnashing your teeth in
frustration for lack of room.

And raising a car is best accomplished with a proper jack and stands.

If this is your first time, don't let it be your last as well.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: Advice on replacing 94-97 Accord muffler? Dealing with rubber hangers?
 

"Peabody" <waybackNO746SPAM44@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:00d0cd1e$0$27955$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
> Seth says...
>
> >> but am just a bit goosey about being able to do the
> >> installation with only the OEM jack to work with. The
>
> > Never get under the car using the OEM jack that it came
> > with. That thing is (barely) sufficient/safe for
> > changing a flat (for which it was intended and you don't
> > get under the car). Getting under the car using that
> > piece of garbage is very dangerous.
>
> Sorry, I didn't say that right. What I would do is jack up
> the rear end one side at a time, and put concrete paving
> stones under the tires, and lower the car onto them, with
> the front wheels blocked. But I can probably only get six
> inches or so of extra room doing it that way, not like being
> able to work under a lift. Never having done this before, I
> just don't know if that's enough room to work with.

Also never use concrete blocks. Not being rebar reinforced, they can crack.
Jack stands are cheap enough.

I doubt you'll get enough lift out of the scissor jack that the car comes
with. It's only designed to get the tires just enough off the ground to
change a tire.

Like Tegger says, either get the right stuff to do the work or don't do it
at all. If you're not going to be doing much more work to the car yourself,
it's probably cheaper to pay a shop to do the work than to buy all the right
equipment to do the job safely and correctly.

Re: Advice on replacing 94-97 Accord muffler? Dealing with rubberhangers?
 

Peabody wrote:
> JRE says...
>
> > However, for our early 90's Hondas (a Civic and an
> > Accord), I have seen _no_ significant difference in
> > lifetime between Bosal exhaust parts and Honda parts.
>
> JRE, did you do the installations yourself? I'm willing to
> take a chance on the quality of the Bosal muffler
> and install it myself (saving about $150 in the process),
> but am just a bit goosey about being able to do the
> installation with only the OEM jack to work with. The
> hanger in front of the muffler looks like it might be
> particularly difficult to get to.

Yes. I pay for car repairs only when I don't think any new tools I
might need will ever pay me back. Alignments, tire-busting, machine
work, and recently a rear wheel bearing replacement on a BMW E46 (new
tools-$1,000!; repair-$300). Very little else, ever. If you buy decent
tools and don't lose them, it doesn't take too many jobs to build a set
that will serve for most jobs without having to acquire many (or any)
new tools.

You will find things much easier with a real floor jack. More
importantly, though, you need jack stands. They are not optional.
NEVER, EVER get under a car supported only by a jack. For years, there
was a newspaper article on my garage wall with the headline, "Car falls
off jack, killing town man" that I would point to when a friend thought
he should crawl under a car without setting jack stands. It was a real
convincer. Cars are heavy and you are fragile. If one falls on you,
you will be severely injured at best. Do NOT screw around here. The
$150 you save is not worth risking your life--and it's a sizable
fraction of the cost of a decent jack and pair of jack stands.

For exhaust system work, ramps are cheaper and just as safe. They are
somewhat easier to use as long as they slope gradually enough to avoid
catching the front bumper cover on them when you back off. However,
they can't be used to remove a wheel and are less versatile in general.

>
> Is the precedure to mount the muffler on the hangers first
> and then do the gasket and flange bolts, or the other way
> around?
>

You will avoid undue stress on the remaining flanges if you unbolt
things first, and then take off the hangars. Don't forget to get new
gaskets with the new pipe. Have spare nuts and bolts or studs on hand
in the right sizes. A propane (or better, acetylene) torch is a big
help for stubborn nuts. Frozen ones are easy to remove when red hot,
and if you have to drive out a stud it is much easier if the flange is
heated until it goes clear.

--
JRE

Re: Advice on replacing 94-97 Accord muffler? Dealing with rubberhangers?
 

Tegger wrote:
> JRE <nothing@nowhere.invalid> wrote in
> news:hfs528$31b$1@news.eternal-september.org:
>
>> All that said, does the lifetime warranty apply to all new Honda
>> exhaust parts, including those for older cars?
>
> Yes it does, provided you're replacing a replacment Honda part with another
> replacment Honda part.
>
> You also need your original bill of sale, or the dealer needs to be able to
> find the previous repair in their system.

Cool! I'll definitely consider that if the car lives through its
current exhaust system.

<snip>

> I, frankly, have had different experiences from you for aftermarket exhaust
> parts. Maybe Bosal is better, I don't know. And frankly, I don't want to
> risk it.

Your choice. We can certainly agree that there is plenty of crap out
there, and that many, perhaps even most, aftermarket exhaust parts are
simply awful. Exhaust parts made of lighter-gauge tubing and sheet
steel, less-durable steel alloys, poor fit, etc., are almost epidemic.
Shopping purely on price is a mistake unless the car is unlikely to last
long for other reasons. There are only so many things a manufacturer
can do to take cost out of an exhaust system, and all of them are bad.

> My exhaust was 100% OEM until a couple of years ago.
>
> When my OEM cat rusted out a couple of years ago, I had to buy an
> aftermarket one (a Walker) because new OEM is no longer available for my
> car. During the repair, the shop discovered the A and B-pipes were also
> rusted through, so they replaced them, without asking me, also with Walker
> parts.

Funny! The only OEM part in my exhaust *is* the cat! But it won't last
through another A pipe and B pipe, as the flanges are nearly gone.
(Washers can be your friend, but there are limits. ;-)

> In the afternoon I came to pick the car up. I peeked undeneath before going
> in to pay and saw the new B-pipe, which DID NOT FIT at all. The hanger
> rubbers were all pulled well forwards and off to one side.
> Plus the hangers and mounting flanges were hokey little things that were
> nothing like the OEM fittings.
>
> They ended up replacing the new Walker B-pipe with a new OEM B-pipe (no
> extra charge to me), which DOES fit properly. The hangers are now straight.
> The Walker A-pipe remains. It doesn't quite fit either, meaning that by the
> time the assembly gets to the tailpipe, the tailpipes are slightly
> misaligned in their bumper aperture, whereas before they were dead-center.
>
> The Walker A-pipe is a piece of crap. When the (very weak) hanger flange
> finally breaks off, a new OEM A-pipe is going in and I'll be down to the
> cat as being the only aftermarket part in the system.

I stopped buying Walker exhaust parts a quarter century ago. I don't
recall why, exactly, but for Hondas the Bosal pipes work well for me and
last a comparable amount of time vs. Honda pipes.

--
JRE