Car safety stats (risk of death vs risk of killing other drivers)
 

I found this interesting study that shows the risk to drivers of other
vehicles vs the risk to drivers for different 1995-1999 vehicle
models.

http://www.lbl.gov/Science-Articles/...ty-newWin.html

For cars, it shows Camry to be the safest (with Accord and others
pretty close). The data is not normalized per mile traveled though.

What I find odd is that Prizm is considerably less safe than Corolla,
according to them. Is there a likely mechanical explanation (dual
airbags are standard in both, but perhaps the quality is different),
or is this a statistical artifact due to the poorer and thus younger
people buying Prizms?

By the way, does anyone know of a similar, but more up-to-date study?
I'd also like the probabilities of disablement included with the data
given per mile traveled.

Re: Car safety stats (risk of death vs risk of killing other drivers)
 

fft1976@gmail.com wrote:

> What I find odd is that Prizm is considerably less safe than Corolla,
> according to them. Is there a likely mechanical explanation (dual
> airbags are standard in both, but perhaps the quality is different),
> or is this a statistical artifact due to the poorer and thus younger
> people buying Prizms?

Yes. The same group that would be buying the other cars that do poorly
in that study.

> By the way, does anyone know of a similar, but more up-to-date study?
> I'd also like the probabilities of disablement included with the data
> given per mile traveled.

Interesting, but as with all these studies, the extenuating factors
greatly affect the results.

Camrys and Accords are bought mainly by more educated, more affluent
consumers toting along children. You'd expect them to have lower
accident rates.

Re: Car safety stats (risk of death vs risk of killing other drivers)
 

fft1976@gmail.com wrote:
> I found this interesting study that shows the risk to drivers of other
> vehicles vs the risk to drivers for different 1995-1999 vehicle
> models.
>
> http://www.lbl.gov/Science-Articles/...ty-newWin.html
>
> For cars, it shows Camry to be the safest (with Accord and others
> pretty close). The data is not normalized per mile traveled though.
>
> What I find odd is that Prizm is considerably less safe than Corolla,
> according to them. Is there a likely mechanical explanation (dual
> airbags are standard in both, but perhaps the quality is different),
> or is this a statistical artifact due to the poorer and thus younger
> people buying Prizms?
>
> By the way, does anyone know of a similar, but more up-to-date study?
> I'd also like the probabilities of disablement included with the data
> given per mile traveled.

In terms of your own safety, select a vehicle based on the IIHS and
NHTSA crash test ratings. For mid-size cars, the Subaru Legacy did the
best when you look at both ratings.

Re: Car safety stats (risk of death vs risk of killing other drivers)
 

On Apr 1, 8:47 am, SMS <scharf.ste...@geemail.com> wrote:
> fft1...@gmail.com wrote:
> > I found this interesting study that shows the risk to drivers of other
> > vehicles vs the risk to drivers for different 1995-1999 vehicle
> > models.
>
> >http://www.lbl.gov/Science-Articles/...ty-newWin.html
>
> > For cars, it shows Camry to be the safest (with Accord and others
> > pretty close). The data is not normalized per mile traveled though.
>
> > What I find odd is that Prizm is considerably less safe than Corolla,
> > according to them. Is there a likely mechanical explanation (dual
> > airbags are standard in both, but perhaps the quality is different),
> > or is this a statistical artifact due to the poorer and thus younger
> > people buying Prizms?
>
> > By the way, does anyone know of a similar, but more up-to-date study?
> > I'd also like the probabilities of disablement included with the data
> > given per mile traveled.
>
> In terms of your own safety, select a vehicle based on the IIHS and
> NHTSA crash test ratings. For mid-size cars, the Subaru Legacy did the
> best when you look at both ratings.

Crash tests don't tell the whole story. They hide the fact that
driving a heavier vehicle is safer for you.

If you are a good driver and live in an urban area, you are probably
more likely to be in an accident involving another car than a concrete
wall.

Relative weight does matter. Graphic illustration:
http://izismile.com/2009/03/31/road_...is_7_pics.html

Re: Car safety stats (risk of death vs risk of killing other drivers)
 

fft1976@gmail.com wrote:
> On Apr 1, 8:47�am, SMS <scharf.ste...@geemail.com> wrote:
>> fft1...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> I found this interesting study that shows the risk to drivers of other
>>> vehicles vs the risk to drivers for different 1995-1999 vehicle
>>> models.
>>> http://www.lbl.gov/Science-Articles/...ty-newWin.html
>>> For cars, it shows Camry to be the safest (with Accord and others
>>> pretty close). The data is not normalized per mile traveled though.
>>> What I find odd is that Prizm is considerably less safe than Corolla,
>>> according to them. Is there a likely mechanical explanation (dual
>>> airbags are standard in both, but perhaps the quality is different),
>>> or is this a statistical artifact due to the poorer and thus younger
>>> people buying Prizms?
>>> By the way, does anyone know of a similar, but more up-to-date study?
>>> I'd also like the probabilities of disablement included with the data
>>> given per mile traveled.
>> In terms of your own safety, select a vehicle based on the IIHS and
>> NHTSA crash test ratings. For mid-size cars, the Subaru Legacy did the
>> best when you look at both ratings.
>
> Crash tests don't tell the whole story. They hide the fact that
> driving a heavier vehicle is safer for you.

really? have you seen this?
http://bridger.us/2002/12/16/CrashTe...perVsFordF150/

crash safety has nothing to do with weight and everything to do with
energy absorption and deceleration rates. the passenger cell of the
vehicle needs to resist deformation, and the crumple zones need to
absorb energy, thus keep deceleration rates down.


>
> If you are a good driver and live in an urban area, you are probably
> more likely to be in an accident involving another car than a concrete
> wall.
>
> Relative weight does matter. Graphic illustration:
> http://izismile.com/2009/03/31/road_...is_7_pics.html

exactly as above.

oh, and another dirty little secret - heavier vehicles are harder to
stop [as graphically illustrated] - thus they /increase/ the road
hazard, not decrease it.

are you shilling for an oil company by any chance? oilcos have a HUGE
vested interest in heavy vehicles, not consumers - because of the extra
fuel consumption.

Re: Car safety stats (risk of death vs risk of killing other drivers)
 

On Apr 1, 5:59 pm, jim beam <retard-fin...@bad.example.net> wrote:
> fft1...@gmail.com wrote:

> > Crash tests don't tell the whole story. They hide the fact that
> > driving a heavier vehicle is safer for you.

Perhaps I expressed myself poorly. All things being equal, heavier
will be safer for you (less safe to others).

>
> really? have you seen this?http://bridger.us/2002/12/16/CrashTe...perVsFordF150/

But have they tried crashing Cooper into F150 head on at the same
speed?

> are you shilling for an oil company by any chance?

Are you serious?

> oilcos have a HUGE
> vested interest in heavy vehicles, not consumers - because of the extra
> fuel consumption.

I bet, but what does this have to do with issue?

Re: Car safety stats (risk of death vs risk of killing other drivers)
 

fft1976@gmail.com wrote:
> On Apr 1, 5:59�pm, jim beam <retard-fin...@bad.example.net> wrote:
>> fft1...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>>> Crash tests don't tell the whole story. They hide the fact that
>>> driving a heavier vehicle is safer for you.
>
> Perhaps I expressed myself poorly. All things being equal, heavier
> will be safer for you (less safe to others).

except for the fact that you're more likely to crash in the first place.
heavier vehicles are harder to stop. they tend to roll more easily too.


>
>> really? �have you seen this?http://bridger.us/2002/12/16/CrashTe...perVsFordF150/
>
> But have they tried crashing Cooper into F150 head on at the same
> speed?

why would they? can you not see the difference?


>
>> are you shilling for an oil company by any chance?
>
> Are you serious?

yes indeed i am.


>
>> �oilcos have a HUGE
>> vested interest in heavy vehicles, not consumers - because of the extra
>> fuel consumption.
>
> I bet, but what does this have to do with issue?

you're advocating heavy vehicles. that's very uninformed because just
weight doesn't enhance survivability, it's passenger cell design and
energy absorption that do that.

otoh, increased vehicle weight increases gas consumption. if you were
to, er, "encourage" incorporation of "safety features" that added
400-600lbs weight to every vehicle in the nation, which we are, you're
talking very significant additional gasoline consumption. [and of
course increasing crash propensity for the reasons above.]

/your/ only winner seems to be the oilco.

Re: Car safety stats (risk of death vs risk of killing other drivers)
 

On Apr 1, 8:10 pm, jim beam <retard-fin...@bad.example.net> wrote:
> fft1...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Apr 1, 5:59 pm, jim beam <retard-fin...@bad.example.net> wrote:
> >> fft1...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >>> Crash tests don't tell the whole story. They hide the fact that
> >>> driving a heavier vehicle is safer for you.
>
> > Perhaps I expressed myself poorly. All things being equal, heavier
> > will be safer for you (less safe to others).
>
> except for the fact that you're more likely to crash in the first place.
> heavier vehicles are harder to stop.

What makes you think that? Some grade school physics:
http://www.physicsforums.com/archive.../t-194158.html

> they tend to roll more easily too.

Not if "all other things are equal", like the center of mass.

> >> really? have you seen this?http://bridger.us/2002/12/16/CrashTe...perVsFordF150/
>
> > But have they tried crashing Cooper into F150 head on at the same
> > speed?
>
> why would they? can you not see the difference?

They were crashed into a cement wall at THE SAME SPEED, presumably.
But if they were crashed into each other, the effective speed would be
lower for F150.

effective speed == speed relative to the center of mass of two
vehicles

Re: Car safety stats (risk of death vs risk of killing other drivers)
 

On Apr 1, 8:35 pm, "fft1...@gmail.com" <fft1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 1, 8:10 pm, jim beam <retard-fin...@bad.example.net> wrote:
>
> > why would they? can you not see the difference?
>
> They were crashed into a cement wall at THE SAME SPEED, presumably.
> But if they were crashed into each other, the effective speed would be
> lower for F150.
>
> effective speed == speed relative to the center of mass of two
> vehicles

I'll try to explain this in layman's terms:

If you have a 3000 lb Civic crashing into a 6000 lb Ford Pickup head-
on, each traveling at 30 mph, then 0.1 seconds after the crash, their
combined mess will continue going where the Ford was going, but now at
10 mph (preservation of momentum). Therefore, Civic decelerated 40 mph
in the collision, and Ford only 20 mph.

Re: Car safety stats (risk of death vs risk of killing other drivers)
 

fft1976@gmail.com wrote:
> On Apr 1, 8:35�pm, "fft1...@gmail.com" <fft1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Apr 1, 8:10�pm, jim beam <retard-fin...@bad.example.net> wrote:
>>
>>> why would they? �can you not see the difference?
>> They were crashed into a cement wall at THE SAME SPEED, presumably.
>> But if they were crashed into each other, the effective speed would be
>> lower for F150.
>>
>> effective speed == speed relative to the center of mass of two
>> vehicles
>
> I'll try to explain this in layman's terms:
>
> If you have a 3000 lb Civic crashing into a 6000 lb Ford Pickup head-
> on, each traveling at 30 mph, then 0.1 seconds after the crash, their
> combined mess will continue going where the Ford was going, but now at
> 10 mph (preservation of momentum). Therefore, Civic decelerated 40 mph
> in the collision, and Ford only 20 mph.

give me a break!!! what matters is what happens to the occupants
acceleration vectors [deceleration] and whether the passenger cell
intrudes into their space. occupant reactions are not simple m1v1 = m2v2.

Re: Car safety stats (risk of death vs risk of killing other drivers)
 

On Apr 1, 9:14 pm, jim beam <retard-fin...@bad.example.net> wrote:

> > I'll try to explain this in layman's terms:
>
> > If you have a 3000 lb Civic crashing into a 6000 lb Ford Pickup head-
> > on, each traveling at 30 mph, then 0.1 seconds after the crash, their
> > combined mess will continue going where the Ford was going, but now at
> > 10 mph (preservation of momentum). Therefore, Civic decelerated 40 mph
> > in the collision, and Ford only 20 mph.
>
> give me a break!!! what matters is what happens to the occupants
> acceleration vectors [deceleration] and whether the passenger cell
> intrudes into their space. occupant reactions are not simple m1v1 = m2v2.

Do you disagree specifically with anything I wrote? You were saying
that crash testing into a cement wall shows how safe a vehicle is. I
wrote that this is not the whole picture, and weight counts (a lot).

I suspect you are one of those big ass SUV drivers who wants everyone
else to drive compact cars. You'll obviously be safer than if everyone
drives and SUV, but we won't be.

Re: Car safety stats (risk of death vs risk of killing other drivers)
 

jim beam <retard-finger@bad.example.net> wrote in
news:UIudnYtCx7lIkEnUnZ2dnUVZ_jdi4p2d@speakeasy.ne t:

> fft1976@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Apr 1, 8:47�am, SMS <scharf.ste...@geemail.com> wrote:
>>> fft1...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> I found this interesting study that shows the risk to drivers of
>>>> other vehicles vs the risk to drivers for different 1995-1999
>>>> vehicle models.
>>>> http://www.lbl.gov/Science-Articles/...afety-newWin.h
>>>> tml For cars, it shows Camry to be the safest (with Accord and
>>>> others pretty close). The data is not normalized per mile traveled
>>>> though. What I find odd is that Prizm is considerably less safe
>>>> than Corolla, according to them. Is there a likely mechanical
>>>> explanation (dual airbags are standard in both, but perhaps the
>>>> quality is different), or is this a statistical artifact due to the
>>>> poorer and thus younger people buying Prizms?
>>>> By the way, does anyone know of a similar, but more up-to-date
>>>> study? I'd also like the probabilities of disablement included with
>>>> the data given per mile traveled.
>>> In terms of your own safety, select a vehicle based on the IIHS and
>>> NHTSA crash test ratings. For mid-size cars, the Subaru Legacy did
>>> the best when you look at both ratings.
>>
>> Crash tests don't tell the whole story. They hide the fact that
>> driving a heavier vehicle is safer for you.
>
> really? have you seen this?
> http://bridger.us/2002/12/16/CrashTe...perVsFordF150/
>
> crash safety has nothing to do with weight and everything to do with
> energy absorption and deceleration rates. the passenger cell of the
> vehicle needs to resist deformation, and the crumple zones need to
> absorb energy, thus keep deceleration rates down.
>
>
>>
>> If you are a good driver and live in an urban area, you are probably
>> more likely to be in an accident involving another car than a
>> concrete wall.
>>
>> Relative weight does matter. Graphic illustration:
>> http://izismile.com/2009/03/31/road_...uzuki_ignis_7_
>> pics.html
>
> exactly as above.
>
> oh, and another dirty little secret - heavier vehicles are harder to
> stop [as graphically illustrated] - thus they /increase/ the road
> hazard, not decrease it.
>
> are you shilling for an oil company by any chance? oilcos have a HUGE
> vested interest in heavy vehicles, not consumers - because of the
> extra fuel consumption.
>

SUVs have lower tolerance for driver errors.
It's high center of gravity makes it prone to rollovers,and it must slow
down more to make turns.Easier to lose control in a SUV,and harder to
recover from it. Higher bumpers means other vehicles are at more risk.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: Car safety stats (risk of death vs risk of killing other drivers)
 

There will always be folks you who us statistic to support their "cause,"
but one can not escape the laws of physics!

The fact is the larger the vehicle the more room to build in the best design
features to enable the VEHICLE to absorb the forces of the collision rather
than the bodies of properly belted occupants.

I worked the last fifteen years of my thirty years as an automotive design
engineer, on the design of crumple zones and the ability of vehicle to
absorb the forces of a collision that will more likely reduce the terminal
speed of the "third collision," where one body strikes their skeleton, the
one that kills even properly belted occupants when the passenger compartment
is not impinged upon. It is an undeniable fact that the lager the vehicle
the more likely that properly belted passengers will survive or sustain
fewer injuries.

In the real world, even among five star crash rated vehicles, the bigger the
safer. Think about it, if a Smart and an F150 collided in which one would
you rather be an occupant? If you still believe what you choose to
believe I suggest you take a walk through a salvage yard and LOOK at the
smashed vehicles, then decide which one you would rather have been riding.

If you are still in doubt ask your insurance agent why a small FWD vehicle
costs as much, or more, to insure than a large more expensive RWD vehicle.

As to me personally, based on my experience I would never consider riding in
a small or midget car, just to save a few relative dollars a year of fuel,
or allow my family members to do so.



"jim beam" <retard-finger@bad.example.net> wrote in message
news:UIudnYtCx7lIkEnUnZ2dnUVZ_jdi4p2d@speakeasy.ne t...
> fft1976@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Apr 1, 8:47?am, SMS <scharf.ste...@geemail.com> wrote:
>>> fft1...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>>
>> Crash tests don't tell the whole story. They hide the fact that
>> driving a heavier vehicle is safer for you.
>
> really? have you seen this?
> http://bridger.us/2002/12/16/CrashTe...perVsFordF150/
>
> crash safety has nothing to do with weight and everything to do with
> energy absorption and deceleration rates. the passenger cell of the
> vehicle needs to resist deformation, and the crumple zones need to absorb
> energy, thus keep deceleration rates down.
>


>> Relative weight does matter. Graphic illustration:
>> http://izismile.com/2009/03/31/road_...is_7_pics.html
>
> exactly as above.
>
> oh, and another dirty little secret - heavier vehicles are harder to stop
> [as graphically illustrated] - thus they /increase/ the road hazard, not
> decrease it.
>
> are you shilling for an oil company by any chance? oilcos have a HUGE
> vested interest in heavy vehicles, not consumers - because of the extra
> fuel consumption.

Re: Car safety stats (risk of death vs risk of killing other drivers)
 

On Apr 2, 9:04 am, "Mike Hunter" <mikehunt2@lycos/com> wrote:

> I worked the last fifteen years of my thirty years as an automotive design
> engineer, on the design of crumple zones and the ability of vehicle to
> absorb the forces of a collision that will more likely reduce the terminal
> speed of the "third collision," where one body strikes their skeleton, the
> one that kills even properly belted occupants when the passenger compartment
> is not impinged upon. It is an undeniable fact that the lager the vehicle
> the more likely that properly belted passengers will survive or sustain
> fewer injuries.

The OP chart showed that minivans were safest, but is it because they
have better drivers, inadequate engine size, better crumple zones, or
higher driver sitting height?

> In the real world, even among five star crash rated vehicles, the bigger the
> safer. Think about it, if a Smart and an F150 collided in which one would
> you rather be an occupant? If you still believe what you choose to
> believe I suggest you take a walk through a salvage yard and LOOK at the
> smashed vehicles, then decide which one you would rather have been riding..

A large portion of the fatal accidents don't involve another vehicle.
IIRC, the larger vehicles have a lower probability of a death in such
an accident.

One criticism of trucks and SUVs is rollover accidents. What factors
are important in reducing the chance of a rollover?

--
Ron

Re: Car safety stats (risk of death vs risk of killing other drivers)
 

On Thu, 2 Apr 2009 10:04:58 -0400, "Mike Hunter" <mikehunt2@lycos/com>
wrote:

>In the real world, even among five star crash rated vehicles, the bigger the
>safer. Think about it, if a Smart and an F150 collided in which one would
>you rather be an occupant? If you still believe what you choose to
>believe I suggest you take a walk through a salvage yard and LOOK at the
>smashed vehicles, then decide which one you would rather have been riding.

In the real world, the safest car is the one that avoids the crash
entirely. Many SUV/pickup drivers/passengers are killed in single
vehicle crashes. Which would you rather be in, the F150 that flipped
over or the Smart Car that drove by the accident?

It is clear from the web site posted by the OP:

http://www.lbl.gov/Science-Articles/...ty-newWin.html

that in the real world, many small cars are as safe or safer than SUVs
and pickups. The Accord and Camry had lower driver death rates than
Suburbans and Tahoes. Civics and Corollas were safer than any of the
"Big Three" pickups. The most dangerous vehicle on the chart, the
Chevy S-10 is hardly the lightest. While the safest vehicles were
minivans, the Camry was close behind as were Accord and Avalon.
Interestingly, the Camry was slightly safer than the Avalon.