Re: Changing head gasket 89 Accord
 

Forrest wrote:
> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
> news:wOGdnXaHv7S_FCPVnZ2dnUVZ_tvinZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>> Forrest wrote:
>>> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
>>> news:EcmdnYk9c7TOpyDVnZ2dnUVZ_tLinZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>>>> Forrest wrote:
>>>>> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
>>>>> news:H_KdnZxgEdi5JCHVnZ2dnUVZ_jidnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>>>>>> Forrest wrote:
>>>>>>> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:itydncBYzOSLniHVnZ2dnUVZ_gmdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>>>>>>>> Forrest wrote:
>>>>>>>>> "Dan C" <youmustbejoking@lan.invalid> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> news:pan.2008.08.31.23.22.18.270781@moria2.lan...
>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 31 Aug 2008 16:01:10 -0700, Forrest wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I have an 89 Accord SEI that appears to have a blown head gasket.
>>>>>>>>>>> One of the
>>>>>>>>>>> symptoms is a constant stream of bubbles in the radiator overflow
>>>>>>>>>>> tank. I
>>>>>>>>>>> also noticed that the cooling system(cold) had pressure after
>>>>>>>>>>> cranking it
>>>>>>>>>>> with the coil wire disconnected. After filling and bleeding
>>>>>>>>>>> cooling system
>>>>>>>>>>> and letting idle, the gage will eventually go to hot, even though
>>>>>>>>>>> the fan is
>>>>>>>>>>> kicking in. I would then reloosen the bleed bolt in the
>>>>>>>>>>> thermostat housing
>>>>>>>>>>> and steam would come out. Do it all over again with the same
>>>>>>>>>>> result. Idle is
>>>>>>>>>>> smooth sometimes and rough others. New dist. cap, rotor, plugs,
>>>>>>>>>>> wires,
>>>>>>>>>>> timing belt, injectors, thermostat, radiator and cap. I also just
>>>>>>>>>>> replaced
>>>>>>>>>>> the struts and CV axles. Anywhooo .... I'm going to tear it down
>>>>>>>>>>> myself and
>>>>>>>>>>> replace it. I was just wondering if anybody had any tips, tricks
>>>>>>>>>>> or advice
>>>>>>>>>>> for me to help make the job easier. Also, if the head looks OK,
>>>>>>>>>>> level across
>>>>>>>>>>> the surface etc, should I go through the expense and hassle of
>>>>>>>>>>> having a shop
>>>>>>>>>>> go over it? What is a good brand of gasket kit? The car is a
>>>>>>>>>>> beater with a
>>>>>>>>>>> lot of new parts. It has 220,000 miles on it. I know that the
>>>>>>>>>>> rings aren't
>>>>>>>>>>> that great and really don't want to get into that job. I did a
>>>>>>>>>>> compression
>>>>>>>>>>> test last year and the "wet test" raised the compression quite a
>>>>>>>>>>> bit. I plan
>>>>>>>>>>> on keeping it about another couple of years and maybe putting
>>>>>>>>>>> about another
>>>>>>>>>>> 30,000 miles on it. Thanks in advance for any replies.
>>>>>>>>>> Save yourself some aggravation, and get rid of that piece of
>>>>>>>>>> now.
>>>>>>>>>> Why around with a 20 year old car, just to get another 30k
>>>>>>>>>> out of it.
>>>>>>>>>> Go buy something else. Sheesh.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yeah, you're probably right. It's just that I have done so much to
>>>>>>>>> it that I hate to call it quits now. My son has two more years of
>>>>>>>>> school left. He has an 85 mile round trip drive 4 or 5 days a week.
>>>>>>>>> We eventually want to get him a decent car but hate to "Use it up"
>>>>>>>>> right away. I think I can keep this tin can going with some bailing
>>>>>>>>> wire, duct tape and a few more parts here and there. If I had to
>>>>>>>>> pay for labor, it would definitely be out of the question.
>>>>>>>> that's dan's response to everything here - ignore him.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> re fixing the gasket, the parts are cheap, but it takes a while.
>>>>>>>> use gasket remover rather than abrasives to clean the head and
>>>>>>>> block. if it's flat, do not machine it. google this group for my
>>>>>>>> highly biased opinions on this subject.
>>>>>>> Thanks for the reply, Jim. I Googled your posts and found them very
>>>>>>> informative. I tore the front end of the engine apart last night. I'm
>>>>>>> now trying to figure out how to get the intake side off.
>>>>>> forgot to say:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> there's a bolt you need to do from underneath.... piece of cake if
>>>>>> you go under the car and look straight up.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lots of fun. I snapped a bunch of pictures with the digital camera,
>>>>>>> just in case my memory fails me. I have a photographic memory ... it
>>>>>>> just runs out of film now and then.
>>>>>>> Question about coolant in oil : Will it always turn milky or can the
>>>>>>> coolant or water dilute it without showing a change, other than being
>>>>>>> thinner? This car has always been an oil leaker and my son adds some
>>>>>>> every day. He told me last night that he thinks that the level has
>>>>>>> actually risen on its own a few times. Now he tells me .. oh well.
>>>>>>> I wonder if he may have added too much or at least more than he
>>>>>>> thought he was, by checking the dipstick before the oil had a chance
>>>>>>> to get down to the pan. I'm wondering if the lower part of the engine
>>>>>>> has suffered damage from diluted oil. No milkiness. I'll post about
>>>>>>> the head condition when I get it off. Guess I'll put in a few more
>>>>>>> hours this evening.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, got most of the "brush" cleared off of the engine and am down to
>>>>> the head with the intake manifold still attached. I removed the two
>>>>> bolts under the manifold mount. I also removed all of the crap
>>>>> associated with a timing belt change. I debated about removing the
>>>>> rocker arm assembly or not. I removed all of the bolts and tapped on it
>>>>> ..... not moving .... am I gonna screw something up with this, probably
>>>>> needless move?
>>>> pointless - leave the cam and rockers where they are.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I put the bolts back in and torqued them. Almost 10 PM ... better
>>>>> shut things down or risk attack by estrogen monster. I don't see any
>>>>> way to remove the intake manifold without removing the head. Is that
>>>>> possible?
>>>> should remove the manifold /before/ the head. technically, i guess you
>>>> could leave it on, but it makes for bigger hunks of metal to be lifting
>>>> out of the bay in one piece...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> The lower manifold nuts are tucked way under there and underneath
>>>>> tubular parts of the manifold. No way they can be easily removed, and
>>>>> forget torqueing.
>>>> not true. lie on your back under the car and use a long extension on
>>>> your ratchet. easy access, easy removal.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Soooo ... are you supposed to remove the head with intake manifold
>>>>> attached? Are you supposed to remove the head with the rocker arm
>>>>> assembly intact?
>>>>>
>>>>> Tomorrow's job is to open Pandora's box.
>>>> use a spirit level [in good condition!] and some feeler gauges to check
>>>> the head for flatness. yet again, do NOT use abrasives for cleanup, no
>>>> matter how tempting. that includes scotchbrite [that green pad used in
>>>> the kitchen] - it's one of the worst engine-killers out there.
>>>>
>>>> if you don't have the honda manual, [not haynes which is CRAP], you may
>>>> be able to download parts online. check tegger.com for info too. you'll
>>>> need it to get the timing belt adjustment correct on reassembly -
>>>> there's a trick to it to make sure tension is correct.
>>>>
>>>> also, check the condition of the head bolts. they're re-usable, but
>>>> some positions are "wet" and can get rusty threads. if that is the
>>>> case, visit a junk yard and get yourself some new ones from the "oily"
>>>> positions, and chase the block threads with a tap. this will allow you
>>>> to torque the head properly on replacement. use a bending beam torque
>>>> wrench, not clicker.
>>> Okily, Dokily, Neighbors,
>>> I finally got to open up the box of chocolates. I never could figure out
>>> how to get the intake manifold off, so just pulled them off together. I
>>> might possibly have gotten the manifold off but would have had a hell of
>>> a time bolting it back on after the head reinstallation. The only part
>>> that would come off was the top of the rear part and did no good for
>>> removing the rest of it. No biggie, it's apart and the head gasket looked
>>> as though it had coolant leaks into a couple of cylinders (the end ones).
>>> The inner two both have some carbon on the tops of the pistons, not much,
>>> but some. The end pistons are clean on top. The gasket tore upon removal
>>> and is hard to tell exactly what was leaking where. It looks to me as
>>> though the end cylinders were both getting coolant into them. I've had
>>> white, snow like , coating on the plugs and O2 sensors for some time and
>>> attributed it to a possible vacuum leak or lean condition. Is that more
>>> probably just coolant residue?
>> yes.
>>
>>
>>
>>> I got started removing some of the old gasket material with a one inch
>>> putty knife, being careful not to scratch.
>> use a solvent gasket remover to get rid of the last residues. aluminum
>> heads need a very fine surface finish and scratching is /bad/.
>>
>>
>>> I noticed that a lot of the coolant passageways were very restricted by
>>> the size of the hole in the gasket. Does that mean that it's not the
>>> original Honda gasket?
>> no, it means the flow is carefully controlled to achieve even temperature
>> distribution given that the coolant flows "sideways".
>>
>>
>> ? And, while on that topic, I think Jim and others mentioned
>>> that one should forget Felpro and any other aftermarket and just use the
>>> Honda one ... for that reason.
>> stick with honda.
>>
>>
>>> How and where do you get a reliable straight edge? I have a couple of
>>> aluminum straight edges but wouldn't trust them when it comes to
>>> thousandths of an inch for looking for warp.
>> use a new spirit level - it's close enough. you're looking for warp, not
>> machining tolerance.
>>
>>
>>
>>> The only other engine that I have rebuilt was the 289, in my 66 Mustang.
>>> I don't think it had more than 80K, when I got it, but it did have to be
>>> ridge reamed. This puppy is smooth all the way up and down ... or at
>>> least from what I've seen so far. Haven't turned it over at all, after
>>> pulling the head.
>> don't even consider it. and to ensure you don't need to in the future,
>> that's why you're being so careful to avoid abrasives.
>>
>>
>>> I'll clean up both surfaces tomorrow and check for warped. Where to buy a
>>> good straight edge for the job?
>> building supply store - see above.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> UP.SO. Jim, the bolts all came out oily, or at least not rusty.
>> good! it's still prudent to chase the bolt holes though - if dirty, the
>> head bolts can stick on tightening and that makes correct torque a total
>> crap shoot.
>>
>>
>>> My back still hurts.
>> should do the job more often then!
>
> I got a couple of more hours in tonight. I worked on cleaning up the head's
> gasket surface. Jim, you mentioned using :
>
> "solvent gasket remover" to get rid of the last residues. aluminum
> heads need a very fine surface finish and scratching is /bad/." ....
>
> Do they sell a product that you like for it, or are you just referring to
> using solvents? I gave acetone a try and didn't get much out of it. I found
> a half can of lacquer thinner and used that on a rag over a wooden paint
> stirring stick. Worked pretty well but have a lot of crap to get off of the
> block still.
>
> As far as I can tell, I don't think that the head is warped. The only
> anomalies that I can see are, what appeared to be a couple of spots that
> look a bit corroded next to the outer coolant ports. They might be just a
> tad depressed there. Not much and not toward the cylinders. but outward.
> I figure it's a go as is, after clean-up.
>
> What about the white crap on the bottom of some valves? I was thinking of
> rotating the camshaft for each cylinder to have a closed valve position, to
> keep crud from getting under valve seats, and then using a drill brush to
> clean them up a bit. Is that Kosher?
>
>

for solvent, use that gel paint stripper stuff you get from the hardware
store. paint it on, leave, then wipe. repeat until cleaned. it takes
a while. you'll find it does a great job of cleaning carbon from the
combustion chambers too.

the white deposit stuff, i don't think that's much of a problem. if you
want to use a wire brush, that'll be fine - just don't brush the sealing
surface of the head.