Re: Corolla v Civic v Hyundai/Nissan moeds
"Zeppo" <zeppo_m@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:68thd6F2ug99jU1@mid.individual.net... > > And as gas prices climb closer to $4/gal, small efficient manual > transmission vehicles will be more desirable. I expect to see a premium on > manual trans, small engine cars pretty soon in the US. > As CVT's gain ground, the benefits of a manual transmission (in terms of fuel economy) fade. Most CVT's are either equaling or exceeding the mpg rating of manuals. I'm not ready to trust CVT's yet, and prefer to see them proven over time, but they do show promise. -- -Mike- mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net |
Re: Corolla v Civic v Hyundai/Nissan moeds
"Newbie" <newbie@no.spam> wrote
> TWO, I am not sure if "apples to apples" is as fair a > comparison as you > make it sound. Corolla is available in cheaper versions, > Prius is not. > A manual CE would not only cost less but also have better > mpg. Most of the reason a manual Toyota Corolla still gets better mpg than an automatic Toyota Corolla is that the manual has a 5-speed tranny while the auto has a 4-speed one. For other makes and models, and in the last five years or so, changes in auto tranny design have resulted in it often surpassing manual trannies when it comes to mpg, when comparing the same models whose only difference is the tranny. |
Re: Corolla v Civic v Hyundai/Nissan moeds
CVT's have been in common production since 1989, Subaru Justy & Honda Civic
HCH how long do they need to be around before you can trust them? "Mike Marlow" <mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net> wrote in message news:b6721$48299e65$6215af4f$12810@ALLTEL.NET... > > "Zeppo" <zeppo_m@hotmail.com> wrote in message > news:68thd6F2ug99jU1@mid.individual.net... > >> >> And as gas prices climb closer to $4/gal, small efficient manual >> transmission vehicles will be more desirable. I expect to see a premium >> on manual trans, small engine cars pretty soon in the US. >> > > As CVT's gain ground, the benefits of a manual transmission (in terms of > fuel economy) fade. Most CVT's are either equaling or exceeding the mpg > rating of manuals. I'm not ready to trust CVT's yet, and prefer to see > them proven over time, but they do show promise. > > -- > > -Mike- > mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net > |
Re: Corolla v Civic v Hyundai/Nissan moeds
Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
> In article <120520081216367764%rps@null.void>, RPS <rps@null.void> > wrote: > >> I would like basic safety features (line anti-lock brakes) and comforts >> (4-door, AC). Very high priority running cost (mpg, reliability). I can >> live with manual or automatic. I would consider new, or low-mileage >> dealer demos etc, but not "really used". (Like everyone else, I thought >> about Prius but it looks too expensive.) > > Well, you may be thinking that it's "too expensive to buy". It may or > may not be too expensive to operate. It's fine, as long as you sell it before the batteries need to be replaced. Toyota is very clever with the Prius batteries in the way they never discharge them very deeply, at least in the U.S. (in other countries there is a button that allow greater electric range by allowing the batteries to discharger more). This allows them to claim that they last a very long time, when in fact they are losing efficiency from day one. _They_ get to decide when the batteries are worn out. It's similar to how automakers define "normal" oil consumption to avoid having to repair oil-burning engines. You're much better off with a Corolla than a Prius, unless you're driving huge amounts of miles (then you're better off with one of the VW TDI vehicles). I recently sold something on craigslist to someone that drove up in a new TDI. Since they don't sell these in California, I asked him how he got it, and he said that there's a dealer in Marin county that brings in slightly used TDIs from Oregon (I think they need 7000 miles on them) then sells them as used cars. Very high mileage and very good engines. VWs have good longevity, even if they have more initial problems. |
Re: Corolla v Civic v Hyundai/Nissan moeds
Newbie wrote:
> Justbob30 <NoThank@you.com> wrote: > > : Before you say you cant afford a hybrid, lets take a look at the web site, > : base Prius $21,100, base Corolla auto (apples to apples) $17,110, difference > : $2,715, > > ONE, the difference between your own numbers is $4000. > > TWO, I am not sure if "apples to apples" is as fair a comparison as you > make it sound. Corolla is available in cheaper versions, Prius is not. > A manual CE would not only cost less but also have better mpg. Also, the Prius isn't heavily discounted off of MSRP, while the Corolla is. There was brief period, after California gave out the maximum number of carpool lane stickers for hybrids, that Prius street prices fell a lot, but now with the higher gas prices they're back up. |
Re: Corolla v Civic v Hyundai/Nissan moeds
Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
> Don't forget the size. The Prius is larger than the Corolla; if you > think you'd want something larger that also gets good gas mileage, > that's the Prius. If you think you're stuck with a Corolla-sized car, > you're not. Not necessarily. It's a little larger, though it's misleading because the cargo capacity is higher only if you pile things up so you can't see out the back! It's still closer to the Corolla in size than the Camry. Corolla ------- 92.0 cubic feet: passenger compartment 12.3 cubic feet: cargo Prius ----- 96.2 cubic feet: passenger compartment 16.1 cubic feet: cargo Camry ----- 101.4 cubic feet: passenger compartment 16.7 cubic feet: cargo |
Re: Corolla v Civic v Hyundai/Nissan moeds
Josh S wrote:
> Based on other rechargeable batteries I would expect a significant drop > off in capacity after 3 to 5 years. > Since the Prius will still run anyway I'm sure the batteries will be run > into the ground before replacement. This is true, but the way Toyota does battery discharging, the _usable_ capacity will be about the same. They don't take full advantage of the battery, especially on the U.S. models (in other countries there's an option to do deeper discharge). All they have to do to get ten years of identical capacity is to slowly increase the discharge level to compensate. |
Re: Corolla v Civic v Hyundai/Nissan moeds
Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
> In article <1z7Wj.264367$pM4.120239@pd7urf1no>, > Tony Hwang <dragon40@shaw.ca> wrote: > >>> TWO, I am not sure if "apples to apples" is as fair a comparison as you >>> make it sound. Corolla is available in cheaper versions, Prius is not. >>> A manual CE would not only cost less but also have better mpg. >> Hmmm, >> Cost of battery pack when it needs replacing? > > Is no different than the cost of the traditional automatic transmission > when it needs replacing. > > And after 125K, a traditional auto trans will need replacing. It seems > to be normal nowadays. Maybe on some vehicles. I know a lot of high-mileage Corollas (>200K) and it's certainly not normal to need a new transmission, at least no one I know of with a high-mileage Corolla (or Camry, or Accord, or Civic) has ever needed one. Where did you get the idea that it was "normal?". |
Re: Corolla v Civic v Hyundai/Nissan moeds
Zeppo wrote:
> "Newbie" <newbie@no.spam> wrote in message > news:130520080707350336%newbie@no.spam... >> Justbob30 <justbob30@nevermind.com> wrote: >> >> : The other issue, is why would you want a low end car with a manual >> : transmission.. >> >> I was just pointing out that it is an option. If someone is comfortable >> with manual transmission (as OP stated) and wants to save money while >> still getting Corolla quality, he can. >> >> I have owned manual and automatic Toyotas and never had problem selling >> either kind. > > And as gas prices climb closer to $4/gal, small efficient manual > transmission vehicles will be more desirable. I expect to see a premium on > manual trans, small engine cars pretty soon in the US. The newer automatics are so efficient that they often get higher mileage than a manual transmission in the same car. No one that drive extensively in heavy stop and go traffic is going to put up with a manual transmission. |
Re: Corolla v Civic v Hyundai/Nissan moeds
Elle wrote:
> > Most of the reason a manual Toyota Corolla still gets better > mpg than an automatic Toyota Corolla is that the manual has > a 5-speed tranny while the auto has a 4-speed one. > > I don't think so. Can you explain that? Clay |
Re: Corolla v Civic v Hyundai/Nissan moeds
"frijoli" <crabman@dud.net> wrote
> Elle wrote: >> Most of the reason a manual Toyota Corolla still gets >> better mpg than an automatic Toyota Corolla is that the >> manual has a 5-speed tranny while the auto has a 4-speed >> one. >> > >> > I don't think so. Can you explain that? www.fueleconomy.gov , among other sites, indicates the 2008 Corolla is available with either a manual 5-speed (five forward gears) tranny or an automatic, 4-speed (four forward gears) tranny. Generally for diverse driving (e.g. some kind of cross between city and highway driving), the more gears, the better the odds the engine has of running at optimal fuel efficiency. Though I probably should have qualified this somewhat. For one, with other makes, there are some automatic four-speed trannies with variable yada that can do as well as or better than manual five-speeds. The bigger point to me is that it's worth checking the MPG for both the auto and manual versions of a particular model and year before just assuming the manual tranny will do better than the auto. Lastly, as others are saying and MPG aside, I think manual transmissions tend to be cheaper to maintain and are less prone to breakdown. |
Re: Corolla v Civic v Hyundai/Nissan moeds
Elle wrote:
> "frijoli" <crabman@dud.net> wrote >> Elle wrote: >>> Most of the reason a manual Toyota Corolla still gets >>> better mpg than an automatic Toyota Corolla is that the >>> manual has a 5-speed tranny while the auto has a 4-speed >>> one. >>> >> I don't think so. Can you explain that? > > www.fueleconomy.gov , among other sites, indicates the 2008 > Corolla is available with either a manual 5-speed (five > forward gears) tranny or an automatic, 4-speed (four forward > gears) tranny. Generally for diverse driving (e.g. some kind > of cross between city and highway driving), the more gears, > the better the odds the engine has of running at optimal > fuel efficiency. > > Though I probably should have qualified this somewhat. For > one, with other makes, there are some automatic four-speed > trannies with variable yada that can do as well as or better > than manual five-speeds. > > The bigger point to me is that it's worth checking the MPG > for both the auto and manual versions of a particular model > and year before just assuming the manual tranny will do > better than the auto. > > Lastly, as others are saying and MPG aside, I think manual > transmissions tend to be cheaper to maintain and are less > prone to breakdown. Actually, an automatic transmission can easily go 200K miles with no repairs or maintenance other than perhaps one change of fluid. 200K miles of city driving on a manual will require at least one clutch change. For highway driving, you could go longer on a clutch. |
Re: Corolla v Civic v Hyundai/Nissan moeds
"SMS" <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote
> Elle wrote: >> "frijoli" <crabman@dud.net> wrote >>> Elle wrote: >>>> Most of the reason a manual Toyota Corolla still gets >>>> better mpg than an automatic Toyota Corolla is that the >>>> manual has a 5-speed tranny while the auto has a >>>> 4-speed one. >>>> >>> I don't think so. Can you explain that? >> >> www.fueleconomy.gov , among other sites, indicates the >> 2008 Corolla is available with either a manual 5-speed >> (five forward gears) tranny or an automatic, 4-speed >> (four forward gears) tranny. Generally for diverse >> driving (e.g. some kind of cross between city and highway >> driving), the more gears, the better the odds the engine >> has of running at optimal fuel efficiency. >> >> Though I probably should have qualified this somewhat. >> For one, with other makes, there are some automatic >> four-speed trannies with variable yada that can do as >> well as or better than manual five-speeds. >> >> The bigger point to me is that it's worth checking the >> MPG for both the auto and manual versions of a particular >> model and year before just assuming the manual tranny >> will do better than the auto. >> >> Lastly, as others are saying and MPG aside, I think >> manual transmissions tend to be cheaper to maintain and >> are less prone to breakdown. > > Actually, an automatic transmission can easily go 200K > miles with no repairs or maintenance other than perhaps > one change of fluid. Actually, you're speaking in possibilities and outliers. I am talking about averages. I can say that, anecdotally, reports of serious problems with auto transmissions are much more common in this newsgroup than reports of serious problems with manual trannies. Fact is the engineering of an auto tranny is far more complicated than that of a manual. This of course translates to a greater propensity for problems. > 200K miles of city driving on a manual will require at > least one clutch change. I would not generalize like this. Clutch wear depends on shifting style as well as stops and starts. I do not do all city driving but it's been almost all suburban driving, with some city and highway. My 91 Civic is on 204k miles on its original clutch. |
Re: Corolla v Civic v Hyundai/Nissan moeds
In article <0sqdnQEWsIx1YLXVnZ2dnUVZ_rfinZ2d@comcast.com>,
"Justbob30" <NoThank@you.com> wrote: > Before you say you cant afford a hybrid, lets take a look at the web site, > base Prius $21,100, base Corolla auto (apples to apples) $17,110, difference > $2,715, City epa for Prius is 48, Corolla 26 Presuming that is the best you > could do in either car (not likely) the Prius would use 250 gallons of gas a > year, the Corolla 461 presuming your 12,000 per year driven....@ lets say > $4.50 a gallon you would save $949 per year/ 2715=2.8 years for break even, > then you would save oh I don't know $1000 a year in gas, not to mention be > driving a MUCH cleaner car and doing your own little part to reduce the use > of fossil fuel. A good analysis, but real world consumption figures show the Prius lower than the EPA rating, much lower in cold winter weather. On the up side for the Prius here in Canada there are Gov. rebates for low consumption vehicles, which drop the price of the Prius significantly, the Camry hybrid quite a bit and even the Corolla slightly. |
Re: Corolla v Civic v Hyundai/Nissan moeds
Elle wrote:
> Actually, you're speaking in possibilities and outliers. I > am talking about averages. LOL, it actually was Elmo one talking about outliers, claiming that 125K miles to be the norm for an automatic transmission. Maybe it's the norm for Ford or Chevy (actually I don't believe that either), but definitely for Toyota and Honda. A Canadian study on longevity (11-20 year old cars) showed the following as the five non-luxury vehicle brands with the highest percentage of vehicles (based on number originally sold): Saturn Toyota Honda Mazda Volkswagen Of course you don't know how much was spent to keep these going that long, how much oil the engines consumed, or how much was spent on repairs in years 1-10, but there's no reason to believe that these owners were willing to spend more on repairs than owners of more poorly ranked vehicles. |
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