Re: crank bolt tightening debate
 

Michael Pardee wrote:
> "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:OLJbf.934$Xo.198@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink .net...
>
>>Aside: If the thread's bolts are seized, I remain baffled at why the bolt
>>head doesn't shear off the way they commonly do on certain suspension
>>bolts.
>>
>>
>
> That's a good point.
>
> Mike
>
>
you can see from the pics that there are no binding problems with the
threads. even the 91 which has been removed 3 times shows no signs of
distress.

Re: crank bolt tightening debate
 

"Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in
news:JtednSfLjYj6qfPeRVn-ow@sedona.net:

> What muddies the comparison is that the cars were both old enough to
> have been through at least one timing belt change, so we don't know
> how diligent the mechanics were about retightening to the spec'd
> torque. It could be that the one who loctited the bolt also wimped out
> on the torque, relying on the loctite to hold the bolt. (Not good
> practice, but it happens.)
>
> I'm completely undecided on this debate.
>


A representative of Bolt Science Ltd, a bona fide expert company in these
matters, has told me specifically that it is "somewhat improbable" that the
bolt turns in more once torqued.

A quote from an email: "Much more likely is that a change in the friction
conditions in the thread and under the bolt head as occurred." (to explain
why it apparently gets tighter in use).


--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: crank bolt tightening debate
 

"jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote
snip
> you can see from the pics that there are no binding problems with the
> threads. even the 91 which has been removed 3 times shows no signs of
> distress.

Any chance you can determine or narrow down what material the pulley bolts
are made of?

For reckless academic fun.

'course, if you take out every pulley bolt in your local yard, this will
guilt me into removing and then re-installing my 91 Civic's pulley bolt and
painting the whole assembly with a line of pink frost glitter nail polish to
ascertain movement (or not).

Re: crank bolt tightening debate
 

"Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:EpWbf.1431$Id6.4@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink .net...
> "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote
> snip
>> you can see from the pics that there are no binding problems with the
>> threads. even the 91 which has been removed 3 times shows no signs of
>> distress.
>
> Any chance you can determine or narrow down what material the pulley bolts
> are made of?
>
> For reckless academic fun.
>
> 'course, if you take out every pulley bolt in your local yard, this will
> guilt me into removing and then re-installing my 91 Civic's pulley bolt
> and
> painting the whole assembly with a line of pink frost glitter nail polish
> to
> ascertain movement (or not).
>
>
That would settle the question decisively. It's just that none of us want to
"bell the cat." And not many of us would go with pink frost glitter nail
polish!

Mike

Re: crank bolt tightening debate
 

"Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in message
news:DaedncZfVfMeae3enZ2dnUVZ_tednZ2d@sedona.net.. .
> "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:EpWbf.1431$Id6.4@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink .net...
> > "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote
> > snip
> >> you can see from the pics that there are no binding problems with the
> >> threads. even the 91 which has been removed 3 times shows no signs of
> >> distress.
> >
> > Any chance you can determine or narrow down what material the pulley
bolts
> > are made of?
> >
> > For reckless academic fun.
> >
> > 'course, if you take out every pulley bolt in your local yard, this will
> > guilt me into removing and then re-installing my 91 Civic's pulley bolt
> > and
> > painting the whole assembly with a line of pink frost glitter nail
polish
> > to
> > ascertain movement (or not).
> >
> >
> That would settle the question decisively. It's just that none of us want
to
> "bell the cat." And not many of us would go with pink frost glitter nail
> polish!
>
> Mike
>

probably more of a Y-65P or R-510 nail polish guy

Re: crank bolt tightening debate
 

"robm" <not@here.net> wrote in
news:Ny0df.7810$AS6.5256@newsread3.news.atl.earthl ink.net:

>
> "Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in message
> news:DaedncZfVfMeae3enZ2dnUVZ_tednZ2d@sedona.net.. .

>> > painting the whole assembly with a line of pink frost glitter nail
> polish
>> > to
>> > ascertain movement (or not).
>> >
>> >
>> That would settle the question decisively. It's just that none of us
>> want
> to
>> "bell the cat." And not many of us would go with pink frost glitter
>> nail polish!
>>
>> Mike
>>
>
> probably more of a Y-65P or R-510 nail polish guy
>
>
>


Do they make nail polish in NH-526M?

--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: crank bolt tightening debate
 

"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in message
news:Xns970B69B11EA02tegger@207.14.113.17...
> "robm" <not@here.net> wrote in
> news:Ny0df.7810$AS6.5256@newsread3.news.atl.earthl ink.net:
>
> >
> > "Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in message
> > news:DaedncZfVfMeae3enZ2dnUVZ_tednZ2d@sedona.net.. .
>
> >> > painting the whole assembly with a line of pink frost glitter nail
> > polish
> >> > to
> >> > ascertain movement (or not).
> >> >
> >> >
> >> That would settle the question decisively. It's just that none of us
> >> want
> > to
> >> "bell the cat." And not many of us would go with pink frost glitter
> >> nail polish!
> >>
> >> Mike
> >>
> >
> > probably more of a Y-65P or R-510 nail polish guy
> >
>
> Do they make nail polish in NH-526M?
>

I know where you can get a bottle with small brush attached to inside of
cap, probably a year supply and you may need little more than nail polish
remover to remove it :)

wonder if they sell pink frost glitter in gallon cans ?
that would be a great project color for an old honda CVCC

>
> --
> TeGGeR®
>
> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: crank bolt tightening debate
 

robm wrote:
> wonder if they sell pink frost glitter in gallon cans ?
> that would be a great project color for an old honda CVCC

bet an auto paint store would have something close! House Of Kolor makes
some interesting showcar paint.

Re: crank bolt tightening debate
 

TeGGeR® wrote:
> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news:jY2dnf6UQMdVmPHeRVn-
> sQ@speakeasy.net:
>
> > this afternoon, i went to my favorite junkyard and bought two crank
> > bolts. one from an 91 civic, one from a 92 civic. i'm going to post
> > the pics later this evening, but the observations are these:
>
>
> <snip>
>
>
>
> Jim: Properly tightened, that bolt does NOT allow any sort of movement. It
> /cannot/, and it /does not/. Period. Full stop. End of story.
>
> You may be an electronics whiz, but you are clearly no mechanical engineer.
>
> The pulley and the pulley bolt do NOT move in use, and the bolt absolutely
> does NOT rotate so as to "tighten" after initial torque.
>
> If you choose to believe that the bolt tightens more through rotation after
> initial tightening torque, then you are misleading yourself and everyone
> who reads your posts.
>
> There are many reasons why some crank bolts are difficult to remove.
> Rotation after initial tightening torque is *NOT* one of them.



That is right; anything else is rubbish.

Re: crank bolt tightening debate
 

> Date: Sun 6 Nov 2005 19:58
> From: "TeGGeR®"
>
> Matt Ion <soundy@moltenimage.com> wrote in
> news:x3rbf.424095$1i.286090@pd7tw2no:
>
> > TeGGeR® wrote:
> >> Matt Ion <soundy@moltenimage.com> wrote in
> >> news:ZY6bf.419264$tl2.287104@pd7tw3no:
> >>
> >>
> >>>Hmmm, not to add to the confusion, but...
> >>>
> >>>I don't know how much relevance this has to crankshaft
> >>>pulley bolts, but on every table saw or radial-arm saw
> >>>I've ever used, reverse-threaded nuts are used to
> >>>hold the blade on the threaded shaft,

snip

> >> Totally different application.
> >>
> >> Honda is just about the only manufacturer whose bolts run
> >> in a tightening direction. Everybody else has bolts that run
> >> in a LOOSENING direction, and these DO NOT COME LOOSE IN USE.

snip

> > The difference is, sawblades are not splined or keyed, so
> > they can turn (and tighten) indefinitely. Splining or keying
> > the pulley WOULD mitigate this effect.


Mitigate?
Splining precludes rotation!


> That's one difference. Also the automotive pulley bolts are
> to be torqued to such a figuure as to prevent movement.
> Your saw blade nuts/bolts are just snugged by hand to an
> unknown torque, and are meant to be repeatedly removed and
> replaced.
>
> I restate:
> "Honda is just about the only manufacturer whose bolts run
> in a tightening direction. Everybody else has bolts that
> run in a LOOSENING direction, and these DO NOT COME LOOSE
> IN USE." Nobody can explain why this is, if it's assumed
> that the pulley and bolt can move relative to the crank.
>
> And even on a Honda, a pulley bolt insufficiently tightened
> (as little as 20 lbs short of the proper figure), will
> eventually result in a bolt that *FALLS OUT*. Talk to any
> mechanic familiar with this subject.
>
> The damned assembly is SOLID in use when properly assembled.
> Nothing anybody says here will change that fundamental fact.


I agree, everything else is rubbish.

Re: crank bolt tightening debate
 

> From: "alt.autos.honda group" <noreply@googlegroups.com>
> Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2005 19:06:41 +0000
>
> ================================================== ============================
> TOPIC: crank bolt tightening debate
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.a...11ca6332c3f50e
> ================================================== ============================
>
> == 3 of 6 ==
> Date: Sun 6 Nov 2005 09:50
> From: "Michael Pardee"
>
> What muddies the comparison is that the cars were both old
> enough to have been through at least one timing belt change,
> so we don't know how diligent the mechanics were about
> retightening to the spec'd torque. It could be that the one
> who loctited the bolt also wimped out on the torque, relying
> on the loctite to hold the bolt. (Not good practice, but it
> happens.)


This is a crucial point. Not only is unknown whether the
timing belt changes were done correctly but it is also unknown
where the parts came from. Therefore, all the provided
"evidence" is worthless and cannot be used in an objective
evaluation.

What is Quantity, Value, Unit? (was: Crank Bolt Tightening Debate)
 

> From: "alt.autos.honda group" <noreply@googlegroups.com>
> Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 02:03:46 +0000
>
> ================================================== ============================
> TOPIC: Crank Bolt Tightening Debate
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.a...11ca6332c3f50e
> ================================================== ============================
>
> == 1 of 1 ==
> Date: Mon 7 Nov 2005 19:16
> From: "Elle"
>
> "karl" <ottokarl@cognisurf.com> wrote [Date: Mon 7 Nov 2005 08:01]
> > > Date: Sat 5 Nov 2005 16:42
> > > From: "Elle"
> > >
> > snip
> > >
> > > I agree with Jim that, upon vibration, the cut of the
> > > threads does not tend to tighten the bolt. Your Figure 3,
> > > Burt, doesn't show anything different from a coarse thread
> > > cut. The threads are helically cut on both coarse and fine
> > > thread designs, of course, so back-and-forth vibrating
> > > forces will tend to have the same effect on both, absent
> > > other forces being at work.
> > >
> > > So far I think the rest of the site has much to offer.
> > >
> > > I would suggest
> > >
> > > 1.
> > > Making sure you use the right units for torque.
> >
> >
> > The units are irrelevant as long as the quantities
> > are correct.
>
> If someone else would like to address this gentleman's comment
> above and his other assertions, then please be my guest.



Because no one came forward to help you I will explain it to
you myself. Could be helpful when "educating college
engineering students."

A quantity consists of a value (also called magnitude) and a
unit (also called dimension), for example "4 quarts," or "1
gallon." Here, "4" and "1" are the values and "quarts" and
"gallon" are the units of the quantities. In these examples
the values and the units are different, but they both specify
the same quantity because 4 quarts equal 1 gallon. So, it is
irrelevant in what units a quantity is expressed, but it is
common to choose units that yield easy to handle values -
avoiding very small or very large numbers.

And if you are specific about the "other assertions" I will
help you with those, too.

Now, would you please help me? I don't understand your first
paragraph. But this could be because I am neither a mechanic
nor am I a metallurgist, and I didn't have the benefits of
"materials 101." When rewriting it, please pay particular
attention to the implications of, "the cut of the threads does
not tend to tighten the bolt," and, "The threads are helically
cut on both coarse and fine thread designs, of course, so
back-and-forth vibrating forces will tend to have the same
effect on both." What would be the effects if the threads were
not helically cut, and what bolts would these be?

Re: crank bolt tightening debate
 

> From: "alt.autos.honda group" <noreply@googlegroups.com>
> Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 02:25:00 +0000
>
> ================================================== ==================
> TOPIC: crank bolt tightening debate
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.a...thread/thread/
> 611ca6332c3f50e
> ================================================== ==================
>
> == 1 of 5 ==
> Date: Sun 6 Nov 2005 19:49
> From: "TeGGeR®"
>
> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in
> news:u9CdnaR9UbhtJfHeRVn-uQ@speakeasy.net:
>
> > TeGGeR® wrote:
>
> >>
> >> The pulley and the pulley bolt do NOT move in use, and the bolt
> >> absolutely does NOT rotate so as to "tighten" after initial torque.
> >
> > check your email. i've just sent you the galling evidence. it's a
> > perfect textbook example.
>
>
> The pics are here:
> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/...m_pulley_pics/
>
>
> >
> >>
> >> If you choose to believe that the bolt tightens more through rotation
> >> after initial tightening torque, then you are misleading yourself and
> >> everyone who reads your posts.
> >
> > the loctited bolt/splined pulley does not move. the torque-only
> > bolt/woodruff-only pulley does. the galling proves it.
>
>
>
> Unfortunately, the pics aren't really evidence of much other than this:
> You've taken photos of a pulley from an unknown car with an unknown history
> given unknown servcicing by persons of unknown competence.
>
>
> These pics are strongly suggestive of a pulley having been installed at
> some point with no Woodruff key, or otherwise installed incorrectly. I can
> assure you a pulley properly installed will not gall that way.
>
>
>
> >
> >>
> >> There are many reasons why some crank bolts are difficult to remove.
> >> Rotation after initial tightening torque is *NOT* one of them.
> >
> > except that we have the photo evidence to prove to the contrary!
> >
> >
>
>
>
> A properly tightened joint does not rotate. Your pictures do not prove
> anythng one way or the other because we do not know the car's history.



Very well said.

Re: What is Quantity, Value, Unit?
 

>
> A quantity consists of a value (also called magnitude) and a
> unit (also called dimension), for example "4 quarts," or "1
> gallon." Here, "4" and "1" are the values and "quarts" and
> "gallon" are the units of the quantities. In these examples
> the values and the units are different, but they both specify
> the same quantity because 4 quarts equal 1 gallon. So, it is
> irrelevant in what units a quantity is expressed, but it is
> common to choose units that yield easy to handle values -
> avoiding very small or very large numbers.
>
> And if you are specific about the "other assertions" I will
> help you with those, too.
>
I just remembered why I hated school. Thanks for the memories.