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Re: GM Closes 4 Suv and Truck Plants
If you read my post I did not say it was any business of the governments,
and in fact I don't think it should be. However, the fact remains, that exec salaries are out of line with the competition. I know that sounds like a liberal rant, but in this case it is just the facts. The board should clean house and the stockholders should vote with their wallets. "Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in message news:Xns9AB3CA306D8B2jyanikkuanet@64.209.0.83... > "Roadrunner NG" <RRNG@highlandcraft.com> wrote in > news:48471613$0$30238$4c368faf@roadrunner.com: > >> I agree, but the executives are workers, and GMs paying higher than the >> industry rate for executives. >> >> >>> >>> BTW,companies are not run for the benefit of workers. >>> They are run for making a profit for their owners. >>> >>> -- >>> Jim Yanik >>> jyanik >>> at >>> kua.net >> >> >> > > isn't that the decision of the company BOD(and the shareholders in a > round- > about way) rather than the government? > > What business is it of the government? (in a Capitalist society...) > > -- > Jim Yanik > jyanik > at > kua.net |
Re: GM Closes 4 Suv and Truck Plants
On Wed, 04 Jun 2008 17:27:51 -0500, Roadrunner NG wrote:
> I'm a capitalist, but overcompensating executives that don't perform and > expecting the company to survive is stupidity that will kill the company. That's the company's problem. It's not your problem, nor mine. Companies go out of business every day, for many different reasons. Welcome to America, and the free enterprise system. > Do you need proof? No. > Also, do you have to defame the Lord to make your point? Sometimes. -- "Ubuntu" -- an African word, meaning "Slackware is too hard for me". Now filtering out all posts originating from Google Groups. The Usenet Improvement Project: http://improve-usenet.org |
Re: GM Closes 4 Suv and Truck Plants
"Roadrunner NG" <RRNG@highlandcraft.com> wrote in
news:4847d512$0$7697$4c368faf@roadrunner.com: > If you read my post I did not say it was any business of the > governments, and in fact I don't think it should be. However, the fact > remains, that exec salaries are out of line with the competition. I > know that sounds like a liberal rant, but in this case it is just the > facts. The board should clean house and the stockholders should vote > with their wallets. > > "Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in message > news:Xns9AB3CA306D8B2jyanikkuanet@64.209.0.83... >> "Roadrunner NG" <RRNG@highlandcraft.com> wrote in >> news:48471613$0$30238$4c368faf@roadrunner.com: >> >>> I agree, but the executives are workers, and GMs paying higher than >>> the industry rate for executives. >>> >>> >>>> >>>> BTW,companies are not run for the benefit of workers. >>>> They are run for making a profit for their owners. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Jim Yanik >>>> jyanik >>>> at >>>> kua.net >>> >>> >>> >> >> isn't that the decision of the company BOD(and the shareholders in a >> round- >> about way) rather than the government? >> >> What business is it of the government? (in a Capitalist society...) >> >> -- >> Jim Yanik >> jyanik >> at >> kua.net > > > the BOD of many companies is like a elite club;they often serve on several companies BODs,and I think they select who can be elected to the BODs.(the choices) So,the shareholders don't really get a lot of say in the matter,and the execs get to give each other huge salaries and bonuses,without regard to actual exec performance as shown by stock price and ROI. It's seems like a vicious circle. But the fact remains that many people(socialists) DO think the gov't should step in and cap exec salaries. -- Jim Yanik jyanik at kua.net |
Re: GM Closes 4 Suv and Truck Plants
On Wed, 04 Jun 2008 01:00:28 GMT, "Don't Taze Me, Bro!"
<One187@NoWhere.Com> wrote: >and shareholders suffer while GM pays GM Chief a crap load of money.... > >The best quote: >"We either need to change this company or have the Japanese come in and run >the whole place," John Lauve > > >http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080603/gm_sh...ders.html?.v=5 RE: See Dr. Deming and why the Japanese whooped our asses in producing quality cars (and other goods) leading to *long term* success of the company and their economy. Most people were amused at the macroeconomic driven view that people like Deming took (and others still spout) but look at the benefits now vis-a-vis the US economy. You don't even want to read what folks like this are writing about the current US economy and direction. GM has no one to blame but themselves. Continuously. Repeatedly. Over and over again. The writing was on the wall in the 70's and they still haven't taken notice. The only good news in it for the US is that the Japanese discovered that their primary cost issue was distribution. So now, most Jap cars are made in the USA. In effect, the Japanese are now US car companies. And, contrary to what your friends will tell you at the water cooler, the majority of the money they take in is spent here, not back in Japan. See those funky economists for more of that. |
Re: GM Closes 4 Suv and Truck Plants
still just me wrote:
> The only good news in it for the US is that the Japanese discovered > that their primary cost issue was distribution. So now, most Jap cars > are made in the USA. There were several reasons for this. Protectionism and the challenge by the big 3 for the Japanese manufacturers to have U.S. factories. Protection against currency fluctuation, given the strong Yen. Transportation costs. The ability to market the vehicles with references to the U.S. factories and jobs. It worked out pretty well for them. |
Re: GM Closes 4 Suv and Truck Plants
On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 20:56:42 -0700, jim beam wrote:
> Don't Taze Me, Bro! wrote: >> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message >> news:ucSdnRWhqPCtYNjVnZ2dnUVZ_jidnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t... >>> Don't Taze Me, Bro! wrote: >>>> and shareholders suffer while GM pays GM Chief a crap load of >>>> money.... >>>> >>>> The best quote: >>>> "We either need to change this company or have the Japanese come in >>>> and run the whole place," John Lauve >>>> >>>> >>>> http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080603/gm_sh...ders.html?.v=5 >>>> >>> troll >> >> Okay, you go to plonky town.. Buh Bye! PLONK >> >> >> > let's see how this works: > > 1. you repeatedly troll. > > 2. i call you on it. > > 3. you stick your head in the sand. > > doesn't seem very smart. or social. but i guess problems with social > interaction are why you're trolling in the first place. Um, do you know what *PLONK!* means? It means he realizes your real name is Walking Eagle* and has added you to his round file. As in, your messages will be deleted by his newsreader. *Walking Eagle...too full of to fly... |
Re: GM Closes 4 Suv and Truck Plants
What color is the sky in your world? The fuel economy of American cars the
same size as made by the Japanese is as good as or better than Japanese cars, look at the CAFE lists. GM for example, offers more car that get 30 MPG or more than does ANY import brand. Domestic do not offer some of the midget cars that the Japanese offer, that get better miles when compare to their compact and midsize cars, but they are ALL imported not assembled in the US like some of their larger cars "still just me" <wheeledBobNOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:g0bg449tu0ojs1969pb4c0vdof6il4a8eh@4ax.com... > On Wed, 04 Jun 2008 01:00:28 GMT, "Don't Taze Me, Bro!" > <One187@NoWhere.Com> wrote: > >>and shareholders suffer while GM pays GM Chief a crap load of money.... >> >>The best quote: >>"We either need to change this company or have the Japanese come in and >>run >>the whole place," John Lauve >> >> >>http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080603/gm_sh...ders.html?.v=5 > > RE: See Dr. Deming and why the Japanese whooped our asses in producing > quality cars (and other goods) leading to *long term* success of the > company and their economy. Most people were amused at the > macroeconomic driven view that people like Deming took (and others > still spout) but look at the benefits now vis-a-vis the US economy. > You don't even want to read what folks like this are writing about the > current US economy and direction. > > GM has no one to blame but themselves. Continuously. Repeatedly. Over > and over again. The writing was on the wall in the 70's and they still > haven't taken notice. > > The only good news in it for the US is that the Japanese discovered > that their primary cost issue was distribution. So now, most Jap cars > are made in the USA. In effect, the Japanese are now US car companies. > And, contrary to what your friends will tell you at the water cooler, > the majority of the money they take in is spent here, not back in > Japan. See those funky economists for more of that. > |
Re: GM Closes 4 Suv and Truck Plants
Mike hunt wrote:
> What color is the sky in your world? The fuel economy of American cars the > same size as made by the Japanese is as good as or better than Japanese > cars, look at the CAFE lists. Really? For every single catagory of cars (2 seater, Minicompact, Subcompact, Compact, Midisize, Large, small station wagon or midsize station wagon), the vehicle with the best mileage is a foreign car. > GM for example, offers more car that get 30 > MPG or more than does ANY import brand. Big whoop! GM has more brands than any import brand. GM cars made in North America that get more than 29 mpg highway: Chevy Cobalt, Malibu, Classic, Pontiac G5, G6, Vibe, The Chevy Aveo (Korea) and Saturn Astra (Belgium) are made in either Asia or Europe. Toyota Cars that 29 mpg (highway): Yaris, Camry, Corolla, Prius, Matrix, Scion xD So Toyota sells as many models that get 30 mpg that are made in the US by GM. And Toyota makes two models that get more than 30 mpg CITY. So, considering that Toyota has 3 brands (toyota, Lexus, Scion) and GM has 7 (GMC, Hummy, Chevy, Pontiac, Caddy, Buick, Saab), Toyota does pretty well. > Domestic do not offer some of the midget cars that the Japanese offer, You mean like the Chevy Aveo? Oh, I see what you mean: Chevy has to import it. > that > get better miles when compare to their compact and midsize cars, That's true. In every category of car, an import brand car (often made in the US of mostly US parts), gets better mileage than the American brand in the same size catagory. > but they > are ALL imported not assembled in the US like some of their larger cars Like the Chevy Aveo. However, Toyota, Honda and other foreign car makers do make cars in the US with mostly US parts. Toyotas, on average (including cars that are made in the US and outside the US) have about 42% US content; Hondas just over 50%, according to a group supported by retired Detroit-3 workers (Level Field Institute). Jeff > "still just me" <wheeledBobNOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:g0bg449tu0ojs1969pb4c0vdof6il4a8eh@4ax.com... >> On Wed, 04 Jun 2008 01:00:28 GMT, "Don't Taze Me, Bro!" >> <One187@NoWhere.Com> wrote: >> >>> and shareholders suffer while GM pays GM Chief a crap load of money.... >>> >>> The best quote: >>> "We either need to change this company or have the Japanese come in and >>> run >>> the whole place," John Lauve >>> >>> >>> http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080603/gm_sh...ders.html?.v=5 >> RE: See Dr. Deming and why the Japanese whooped our asses in producing >> quality cars (and other goods) leading to *long term* success of the >> company and their economy. Most people were amused at the >> macroeconomic driven view that people like Deming took (and others >> still spout) but look at the benefits now vis-a-vis the US economy. >> You don't even want to read what folks like this are writing about the >> current US economy and direction. >> >> GM has no one to blame but themselves. Continuously. Repeatedly. Over >> and over again. The writing was on the wall in the 70's and they still >> haven't taken notice. >> >> The only good news in it for the US is that the Japanese discovered >> that their primary cost issue was distribution. So now, most Jap cars >> are made in the USA. In effect, the Japanese are now US car companies. >> And, contrary to what your friends will tell you at the water cooler, >> the majority of the money they take in is spent here, not back in >> Japan. See those funky economists for more of that. >> > > |
Re: GM Closes 4 Suv and Truck Plants
On Jun 4, 7:54 pm, Jim Yanik <jya...@abuse.gov> wrote:
> "Roadrunner NG" <R...@highlandcraft.com> wrote innews:484716e5$0$30193$4c368faf@roadrunner.com: > > > > > I'm a capitalist, but overcompensating executives that don't perform > > and expecting the company to survive is stupidity that will kill the > > company. Do you need proof? Also, do you have to defame the Lord to > > make your point? > > >> Jesus, did none of you ever study economics and the free enterprise > >> system? This isn't a commune trying to the wealth amongst > >> everyone equally. This is a ing American business, whose goals > >> are (and should be) to make the maximum profit possible for the > >> company. How that company decides to compensate it's > >> directors/executives and other workers is decided by the company. > >> Rick Wagoner didn't set his own salary, the goddam board of directors > >> (and shareholders) did. Don't blame the dude for accepting what they > >> offer to pay him. > > >> We've got enough socialism in the country already. Just look at the > >> circus which is the Democrat party if you want to see that. > > >> -- > >> "Ubuntu" -- an African word, meaning "Slackware is too hard for me". > >> Now filtering out all posts originating from Google Groups. > >> The Usenet Improvement Project:http://improve-usenet.org > > WHERE do you see any authority under the US Constitution for government to > make such decisions as to what a private company's execs are paid? > > -- > Jim Yanik > jyanik > at > kua.net You're either young and idealistic or painfully naive. Fundamental ideologies of capitalism and communism are no longer valid. Granted, the US government at some point has regulated certain industries, but it wouldn't go as far as imposing caps on CEO's salaries. However, the US government has always been the one, directly or by proxy, to bail the venture capitalists out when they go brankrupt. With the current US economic downfall and ed up financial engineering, then soon enough, the whole US economy wil be bailed out by the sovereign wealth fund (SWF) from the Arabs government, the Russian government and even the Chinese, which is still listed as a communist country. Think about that! |
Re: GM Closes 4 Suv and Truck Plants
On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 17:22:23 -0700, bi241 wrote:
> With the current US economic downfall and ed up financial > engineering, then soon enough, the whole US economy wil be bailed out > by the sovereign wealth fund (SWF) from the Arabs government, the > Russian government and even the Chinese, which is still listed as a > communist country. Think about that! I think you've got your tinfoil beanie on a little too tight. -- "Ubuntu" -- an African word, meaning "Slackware is too hard for me". Now filtering out all posts originating from Google Groups. The Usenet Improvement Project: http://improve-usenet.org |
Re: GM Closes 4 Suv and Truck Plants
On 5 Jun 2008 00:00:21 GMT, Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote:
>Gordon McGrew <RgEmMcOgVrEew@mindspring.com> wrote in >news:178e44d2kc77fbiothmt12oms754qfudpe@4ax.com : > >> On 4 Jun 2008 12:16:36 GMT, Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote: >> >>>Gordon McGrew <RgEmMcOgVrEew@mindspring.com> wrote in >>>news:5a5c44pdhbcgjtgkbqta93eqbm08pdh33p@4ax.com : >>> >>>> On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 21:07:39 -0500, Dan C >>>><youmustbejoking@lan.invalid> wrote: >>>> >>>>>On Wed, 04 Jun 2008 01:48:17 +0000, Don't Taze Me, Bro! wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>>> and shareholders suffer while GM pays GM Chief a crap load of >>>>>>>> money.... >>>>> >>>>>>> Ahhh. You're a socialist/Lib/Dimocrat, eh? >>>>> >>>>>> Umm, for thinking the shareholders should not suffer losing money >>>>>> while the GM Chief is paid an insane amount of money? >>>>> >>>>>It's a fact of life, Junior. Sometimes shareholders lose money. >>>>>That's the way the stock market and the free enterprise system works. >>>>>As for the CEO making an "insane" amount of money... well, it's >>>>>certainly more than other GM employees make, but that's (also) how >>>>>things work. Those in charge get paid more. Simple fact of life. >>>>>Perhaps if you had more education, you could make some money, >>>>>yourself! >>>> >>>> Here is a fact for you. Rick Wagoner, CEO of GM got total >>>> compensation last year of over $14 million. That is more than the >>>> compensation of the CEO and the 36 board members of Honda Motor >>>> Company combined. Honda had record sales last month. How is GM >>>> doing? Oh, that's right, the death spiral thing - never mind. >>>> >>>> Anyway, US executives are paid obscene amounts of money not just in >>>> comparison to "other employees," but compared to their foreign >>>> counterparts. Hard to see the value here. The truth is that American >>>> companies are - more and more - being run for the benefit of the >>>> executives rather than the stockholders or, god forbid, the mainstream >>>> workers. >>>> >>>> >>> >>>and whose fault is that? >>>Do you suggest "there oughta be a law against it"? >> >> A law against it? Hell no. I think the tax tables need to be >> adjusted. > >Ah,so everybody DOESNT get treated equally under the law. >If you work smarter,earn more,you get taxed at higher rates as punishment. He is taxed the same as everyone else. If I make $13 million this year, I will pay the same tax he does. If you mean the tax is progressive, you are right. It always has been. >> And when he tries to pass on this tremendous wealth to >> whatever progeny might share his genetic makeup, that transfer should >> be heavily taxed. > >DOUBLE taxation? The guy's income was taxed once,and he should be able to >pass on his private property(assets) to his progeny without being taxed >on the same income again. Nope. It isn't the money being taxed, it is the transaction. If I earn a dollar, I pay tax on it. If I pay the dollar to the plumber, he gets taxed on it. If he buys groceries with it, the store pays taxes on the profits. Daddy Richbucks gets taxed when he earns a dollar. Then he passes it on to, perhaps, his no-good kid who never worked a day in his life. Now if I had to pay tax and the plumber had to pay tax and the grocer had to pay tax and even Daddy Richbucks had to pay tax, why should the no-good kid have to pay tax? >You must be a Socialist-Communist;everything is property of the State. You must be an anarchist if you believe the state has no just authority to collect taxes. >Or simply jealous of those who do better than you,and want government to >strip them of their earnings and life's accumulations. If you are talking about estate taxes, I would point out that the person who had the earnings and life savings is dead. The only just thing would be to fill their yacht with the cash and the body, set it on fire, and push it out to sea. As for being jealous, no I am not jealous. I am angry at the super rich who use their power to rape this country. >> If the company then wants to make a major >> contribution (albeit indirect) to the US Treasury, they can knock >> themselves out. >> >>>BTW,companies are not run for the benefit of workers. >> >> And unions are not run for the benefit of the company. >> >>>They are run for making a profit for their owners. >> >> Tell that to the GM shareholders. I bet not 0.1% of them make as much >> as Wagoner. >> > >But it is STILL *THEIR* decision,not the US Government. >Not in a non-Communist society. Like I said, I wouldn't dream of stopping them from pushing his salary well into the 80% bracket. |
Re: GM Closes 4 Suv and Truck Plants
Jim Yanik wrote:
> Gib Bogle <bogle@ihug.too.much.spam.co.nz> wrote in > news:g25gh5$btq$2@lust.ihug.co.nz: > >> Jim Yanik wrote: >>> "Don't Taze Me, Bro!" <One187@NoWhere.Com> wrote in >>> news:Bvm1k.9117$jX.8234@trnddc04: >>> >>>> "Dan C" <youmustbejoking@lan.invalid> wrote in message >>>> news:pan.2008.06.04.01.11.59.798335@moria.lan... >>>>> On Wed, 04 Jun 2008 01:00:28 +0000, Don't Taze Me, Bro! wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> and shareholders suffer while GM pays GM Chief a crap load of >>>>>> money.... >>>>> Ahhh. You're a socialist/Lib/Dimocrat, eh? >>>> Umm, for thinking the shareholders should not suffer losing money >>>> while the GM Chief is paid an insane amount of money? >>>> >>>> How did you get "socialist democrat" from thinking the shareholders >>>> should be treated right? > > As I said.... >>> why haven't the SHAREHOLDERS corrrected this? > > >>>> Folks, above, I would like you observe what it is like to be >>>> brainwashed by one of the various political sides. Anytime a company >>>> gets questioned about ethics, there is always an extreme >>>> conservative who thinks it is socialist to suggest a company have >>>> such. >>>> >>>> >>> it's socialist/communist to think that involving Government in >>> regulating such affairs is the solution. Or any sort of "excess >>> profit" taxation. >>> >> Who mentioned the government? >> > > that is the usual demand;for Gov't to regulate something,when other means > of control are not achievable. > > Since shareholders are not forcing "appropriate" CEO salaries or denying > unearned bonuses,what other way is there? > There is no other way, that I've ever seen. People start voicing their dissatisfaction (like the OP), a shareholders movement gathers steam, and finally they rein in the irresponsible management. A bit like the political process. Some want to stifle dissent, and label those that speak out as dissidents, trouble-makers, communists ... |
Re: GM Closes 4 Suv and Truck Plants
still just me wrote: > On Wed, 04 Jun 2008 01:00:28 GMT, "Don't Taze Me, Bro!" > <One187@NoWhere.Com> wrote: > > >and shareholders suffer while GM pays GM Chief a crap load of money.... > > > >The best quote: > >"We either need to change this company or have the Japanese come in and run > >the whole place," John Lauve > > > >http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080603/gm_sh...ders.html?.v=5 > > RE: See Dr. Deming and why the Japanese whooped our asses in producing > quality cars (and other goods) leading to *long term* success of the > company and their economy. Most people were amused at the > macroeconomic driven view that people like Deming took (and others > still spout) but look at the benefits now vis-a-vis the US economy. OTOH try Toshiba's tech support for their laptop computers and discover why Japan's economy has been stagnant since the 1980s. The people working Toshiba's first two levels of tech support seem to know almost nothing about Toshiba computers and simply search the company's website -- the very same skimpy website available to the public. Once, when I asked for the maximum memory module size supported by my computer, the "technician" replied, "2-0-4-8-M-B". I suspected that he didn't understand what that meant, and he confirmed that he had no idea what "M-B" was. At least a half dozen other Toshiba employees were just as bad, including one who thought that my computer had a RAM capacity of 160 gigabytes. |
Re: GM Closes 4 Suv and Truck Plants
Mike hunt wrote: > The fuel economy of American cars the > same size as made by the Japanese is as good as or better than Japanese > cars, look at the CAFE lists. GM for example, offers more car that get 30 > MPG or more than does ANY import brand. More actual different cars, or more cars that are about the same under the skin? It's amazing that GM makes about 75 different models and has only 25% US market share, but at its peak it had 50% market share with only about 20-30 different models. Chevy alone used to have about the same market share as all of GM does now. I thought CAFE meant Corporate Average, not model average or size class average. What's GM's CAFE compared to Toyota's or Honda's (include or exclude trucks and SUVs as you wish)? If GM had a high enough CAFE, would it have to sell so many budget cars, like Saturns and Cobalts? |
Re: GM Closes 4 Suv and Truck Plants
Gib Bogle <bogle@ihug.too.much.spam.co.nz> wrote in
news:g2amqf$eme$1@lust.ihug.co.nz: > Jim Yanik wrote: >> Gib Bogle <bogle@ihug.too.much.spam.co.nz> wrote in >> news:g25gh5$btq$2@lust.ihug.co.nz: >> >>> Jim Yanik wrote: >>>> "Don't Taze Me, Bro!" <One187@NoWhere.Com> wrote in >>>> news:Bvm1k.9117$jX.8234@trnddc04: >>>> >>>>> "Dan C" <youmustbejoking@lan.invalid> wrote in message >>>>> news:pan.2008.06.04.01.11.59.798335@moria.lan... >>>>>> On Wed, 04 Jun 2008 01:00:28 +0000, Don't Taze Me, Bro! wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> and shareholders suffer while GM pays GM Chief a crap load of >>>>>>> money.... >>>>>> Ahhh. You're a socialist/Lib/Dimocrat, eh? >>>>> Umm, for thinking the shareholders should not suffer losing money >>>>> while the GM Chief is paid an insane amount of money? >>>>> >>>>> How did you get "socialist democrat" from thinking the >>>>> shareholders should be treated right? >> >> As I said.... >>>> why haven't the SHAREHOLDERS corrrected this? >> >> >>>>> Folks, above, I would like you observe what it is like to be >>>>> brainwashed by one of the various political sides. Anytime a >>>>> company gets questioned about ethics, there is always an extreme >>>>> conservative who thinks it is socialist to suggest a company have >>>>> such. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> it's socialist/communist to think that involving Government in >>>> regulating such affairs is the solution. Or any sort of "excess >>>> profit" taxation. >>>> >>> Who mentioned the government? >>> >> >> that is the usual demand;for Gov't to regulate something,when other >> means of control are not achievable. >> >> Since shareholders are not forcing "appropriate" CEO salaries or >> denying unearned bonuses,what other way is there? >> > > There is no other way, that I've ever seen. People start voicing > their dissatisfaction (like the OP), a shareholders movement gathers > steam, and finally they rein in the irresponsible management. A bit > like the political process. Some want to stifle dissent, and label > those that speak out as dissidents, trouble-makers, communists ... McCain-Feingold is such an attempt.The "Fairness Doctrine" was another. Liberals tossing pies in conservative speakers faces or shouting them down are attempts to stifle;anti-free speech. > Or,like Communists/Socialists,they call for government to enact laws against it. Nobody is stopping shareholders from speaking out,debating,or adjusting their exec salaries and compensation. It simply has not happened. -- Jim Yanik jyanik at kua.net |
Re: GM Closes 4 Suv and Truck Plants
Where did I say domestic do not import cars? You can pick and choose all
you want and believe whatever you choose, but what I posted is factual and that is the fuel economy of American cars the same size as made by the Japanese is as good as or better than Japanese cars, look at the CAFE lists. In addition one does not need to settle for an underpowered car, like the 4cy Camry, to get decent mileage when the buy a domestic. Import brand penchant to spin their engines to higher RPMs so they can advertize higher HP figures greatly effects the torque that one needs to get the vehicle moving and keep it going up a grade. That basic engineering fact reduces ones actual fuel mileage when one drives in hilly or mountainous parts of the country. The US Commerce Department does not agree with the domestic content numbers you site, in any event "Jeff" <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:MH_1k.2502$v%.1415@trndny04... > Mike hunt wrote: >> What color is the sky in your world? The fuel economy of American cars >> the same size as made by the Japanese is as good as or better than >> Japanese cars, look at the CAFE lists. > > Really? For every single catagory of cars (2 seater, Minicompact, > Subcompact, Compact, Midisize, Large, small station wagon or midsize > station wagon), the vehicle with the best mileage is a foreign car. > > > GM for example, offers more car that get 30 >> MPG or more than does ANY import brand. > > Big whoop! GM has more brands than any import brand. > > GM cars made in North America that get more than 29 mpg highway: > > Chevy Cobalt, Malibu, Classic, Pontiac G5, G6, Vibe, > > The Chevy Aveo (Korea) and Saturn Astra (Belgium) are made in either Asia > or Europe. > > Toyota Cars that 29 mpg (highway): > > Yaris, Camry, Corolla, Prius, Matrix, Scion xD > > So Toyota sells as many models that get 30 mpg that are made in the US by > GM. > > And Toyota makes two models that get more than 30 mpg CITY. > > So, considering that Toyota has 3 brands (toyota, Lexus, Scion) and GM has > 7 (GMC, Hummy, Chevy, Pontiac, Caddy, Buick, Saab), Toyota does pretty > well. > > > >> Domestic do not offer some of the midget cars that the Japanese offer, > > You mean like the Chevy Aveo? Oh, I see what you mean: Chevy has to import > it. > >> that get better miles when compare to their compact and midsize cars, > > That's true. In every category of car, an import brand car (often made in > the US of mostly US parts), gets better mileage than the American brand in > the same size catagory. > >> but they are ALL imported not assembled in the US like some of their >> larger cars > > Like the Chevy Aveo. However, Toyota, Honda and other foreign car makers > do make cars in the US with mostly US parts. Toyotas, on average > (including cars that are made in the US and outside the US) have about 42% > US content; Hondas just over 50%, according to a group supported by > retired Detroit-3 workers (Level Field Institute). > > Jeff > |
Re: GM Closes 4 Suv and Truck Plants
On 5 Jun 2008 00:03:02 GMT, Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote:
>Gordon McGrew <RgEmMcOgVrEew@mindspring.com> wrote in >news:dm8e449ihd25pj0mcsq1ch16lh84evmf1d@4ax.com : > >> On Wed, 04 Jun 2008 07:48:29 -0500, Dan C >><youmustbejoking@lan.invalid> wrote: >> >>>On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 23:27:46 -0500, Gordon McGrew wrote: >>> >>>>>It's a fact of life, Junior. Sometimes shareholders lose money. >>>>>That's the way the stock market and the free enterprise system >>>>>works. As for the CEO making an "insane" amount of money... well, >>>>>it's certainly more than other GM employees make, but that's (also) >>>>>how things work. Those in charge get paid more. Simple fact of >>>>>life. Perhaps if you had more education, you could make some money, >>>>>yourself! >>> >>>> Here is a fact for you. Rick Wagoner, CEO of GM got total >>>> compensation last year of over $14 million. That is more than the >>>> compensation of the CEO and the 36 board members of Honda Motor >>>> Company combined. Honda had record sales last month. How is GM >>>> doing? Oh, that's right, the death spiral thing - never mind. >>> >>>How much he makes in comparison to other executives (especially >>>foreigners) is completely irrelevant. He was paid an amount that was >>>decided upon by the board of directors, who are supposed to be the >>>direct >> >> "supposed to" being the operative statement here. >> >>>representatives of the shareholders. Blame the board, and the >>>shareholders, for paying him too much, if you must blame someone. >> >> Blame the Board (aka his golf buddies), sure. The stockholders' only >> real vote is to sell. Considering that GM stock is worth no more now >> than it was in 1960, I think a lot of them have already voted. >> >>>> Anyway, US executives are paid obscene amounts of money not just in >>>> comparison to "other employees," but compared to their foreign >>>> counterparts. Hard to see the value here. The truth is that >>>> American companies are - more and more - being run for the benefit >>>> of the executives rather than the stockholders or, god forbid, the >>>> mainstream workers. >>> >>>Jesus, did none of you ever study economics and the free enterprise >>>system? This isn't a commune trying to the wealth amongst >>>everyone equally. This is a ing American business, whose goals >>>are (and should be) to make the maximum profit possible for the >>>company. >> >> I agree, that should be the goal. I am telling you that you are >> naive. The purpose of the company is to make the top executives as >> rich as possible. >> >>> How that company >>>decides to compensate it's directors/executives and other workers is >>>decided by the company. Rick Wagoner didn't set his own salary, the >>>goddam board of directors (and shareholders) did. Don't blame the >>>dude for accepting what they offer to pay him. >> >> And when he sits on the board of their company, don't blame them for >> accepting what Rick Wagoner gives them. >> >>>We've got enough socialism in the country already. Just look at the >>>circus which is the Democrat party if you want to see that. >> >> Democracy is so untidy. Let's just make Bush dictator like he said he >> wanted. >> >> > >It appears YOU are the one who wants to assign "dictator" powers to the >government. GOV. GEORGE W. BUSH (R-TX), PRESIDENT-ELECT: I told all four that there were going to be some times where we don't agree with each other. But that's OK. If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I'm the dictator. http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP.../18/nd.01.html >YOU want the government to dictate to companies how much they can pay for >certain jobs. I have clearly stated otherwise. |
Re: GM Closes 4 Suv and Truck Plants
On 5 Jun 2008 00:05:06 GMT, Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote:
>Gordon McGrew <RgEmMcOgVrEew@mindspring.com> wrote in >news:dm8e449ihd25pj0mcsq1ch16lh84evmf1d@4ax.com : > > >Tell me,did you once post by the name "krztalizer"? No, never heard of it. |
Re: GM Closes 4 Suv and Truck Plants
Mike hunt wrote:
> Where did I say domestic do not import cars? No where. I didn't say you said anything about this. > You can pick and choose all > you want and believe whatever you choose, but what I posted is factual and > that is the fuel economy of American cars the same size as made by the > Japanese is as good as or better than Japanese cars, look at the CAFE > lists. No, your opinion is not factual. The most fuel efficient model of each type of car (midsize, subcompact, etc.) is made by a foreign automaker, often a Japanese automaker. For example, each of the two biggest automakers make more cars that get more than 30 mpg CITY than GM and more cars that get 40 mpg highway than GM, too. > In addition one does not need to settle for an underpowered car, > like the 4cy Camry, to get decent mileage when the buy a domestic. Considering that the Camry is one of the best selling vehicles in the US, US consumers do not seem to think it is underpowered. > Import > brand penchant to spin their engines to higher RPMs so they can advertize > higher HP figures greatly effects the torque that one needs to get the > vehicle moving and keep it going up a grade. Interestingly, one can get higher power by using a lower gear. That's why there is a transmission on the cars. > That basic engineering fact > reduces ones actual fuel mileage when one drives in hilly or mountainous > parts of the country. > > The US Commerce Department does not agree with the domestic content numbers > you site, in any event Your evidence of this is what? Exact URL, please. However, the Level Field Institute did determine its domestic content from data from the US Gov't, including the Commerce Department. Jeff > "Jeff" <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com> wrote in message > news:MH_1k.2502$v%.1415@trndny04... >> Mike hunt wrote: >>> What color is the sky in your world? The fuel economy of American cars >>> the same size as made by the Japanese is as good as or better than >>> Japanese cars, look at the CAFE lists. >> Really? For every single catagory of cars (2 seater, Minicompact, >> Subcompact, Compact, Midisize, Large, small station wagon or midsize >> station wagon), the vehicle with the best mileage is a foreign car. >> >>> GM for example, offers more car that get 30 >>> MPG or more than does ANY import brand. >> Big whoop! GM has more brands than any import brand. >> >> GM cars made in North America that get more than 29 mpg highway: >> >> Chevy Cobalt, Malibu, Classic, Pontiac G5, G6, Vibe, >> >> The Chevy Aveo (Korea) and Saturn Astra (Belgium) are made in either Asia >> or Europe. >> >> Toyota Cars that 29 mpg (highway): >> >> Yaris, Camry, Corolla, Prius, Matrix, Scion xD >> >> So Toyota sells as many models that get 30 mpg that are made in the US by >> GM. >> >> And Toyota makes two models that get more than 30 mpg CITY. >> >> So, considering that Toyota has 3 brands (toyota, Lexus, Scion) and GM has >> 7 (GMC, Hummy, Chevy, Pontiac, Caddy, Buick, Saab), Toyota does pretty >> well. >> >> >> >>> Domestic do not offer some of the midget cars that the Japanese offer, >> You mean like the Chevy Aveo? Oh, I see what you mean: Chevy has to import >> it. >> >>> that get better miles when compare to their compact and midsize cars, >> That's true. In every category of car, an import brand car (often made in >> the US of mostly US parts), gets better mileage than the American brand in >> the same size catagory. >> >>> but they are ALL imported not assembled in the US like some of their >>> larger cars >> Like the Chevy Aveo. However, Toyota, Honda and other foreign car makers >> do make cars in the US with mostly US parts. Toyotas, on average >> (including cars that are made in the US and outside the US) have about 42% >> US content; Hondas just over 50%, according to a group supported by >> retired Detroit-3 workers (Level Field Institute). >> >> Jeff >> > > |
Re: GM Closes 4 Suv and Truck Plants
On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 12:43:07 -0400, "Mike hunt" <mikehunt22@lycos.com>
wrote: >Where did I say domestic do not import cars? You can pick and choose all >you want and believe whatever you choose, Speaking of believing whatever you choose, how are those Fords selling, Mike? Seems like all it took was $4 gas and all of a sudden didn't need, want or afford those F150 anymore. Remember this: Gordon: Hey Mike, care to comment on US Ford sales falling behind Toyota this year? Or the fact that Toyota may pass Chevy to be the best selling brand? Mike: Perhaps but the fact remains as of today the two best selling vehicles are trucks not cars and both GM and Ford outsell any import. >but what I posted is factual and >that is the fuel economy of American cars the same size as made by the >Japanese is as good as or better than Japanese cars, look at the CAFE >lists. OK. Comparing Cobalt to Civic and Corolla, The Japanese cars get 3-4 more mpg in the city and 4-5 more on the highway. Focus is better but still 1-2 mpg short. > In addition one does not need to settle for an underpowered car, >like the 4cy Camry, to get decent mileage when the buy a domestic. Import >brand penchant to spin their engines to higher RPMs so they can advertize >higher HP figures greatly effects the torque that one needs to get the >vehicle moving and keep it going up a grade. Do you honestly believe that the Import brands have trouble going up hill? If they were such dogs, they wouldn't be outselling the domestics by such a huge margin, would they? > That basic engineering fact >reduces ones actual fuel mileage when one drives in hilly or mountainous >parts of the country. Of course, you have no evidence to support your poorly stated assertion. >The US Commerce Department does not agree with the domestic content numbers >you site, in any event > >"Jeff" <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com> wrote in message >news:MH_1k.2502$v%.1415@trndny04... >> Mike hunt wrote: >>> What color is the sky in your world? The fuel economy of American cars >>> the same size as made by the Japanese is as good as or better than >>> Japanese cars, look at the CAFE lists. >> >> Really? For every single catagory of cars (2 seater, Minicompact, >> Subcompact, Compact, Midisize, Large, small station wagon or midsize >> station wagon), the vehicle with the best mileage is a foreign car. >> >> > GM for example, offers more car that get 30 >>> MPG or more than does ANY import brand. >> >> Big whoop! GM has more brands than any import brand. >> >> GM cars made in North America that get more than 29 mpg highway: >> >> Chevy Cobalt, Malibu, Classic, Pontiac G5, G6, Vibe, >> >> The Chevy Aveo (Korea) and Saturn Astra (Belgium) are made in either Asia >> or Europe. >> >> Toyota Cars that 29 mpg (highway): >> >> Yaris, Camry, Corolla, Prius, Matrix, Scion xD >> >> So Toyota sells as many models that get 30 mpg that are made in the US by >> GM. >> >> And Toyota makes two models that get more than 30 mpg CITY. >> >> So, considering that Toyota has 3 brands (toyota, Lexus, Scion) and GM has >> 7 (GMC, Hummy, Chevy, Pontiac, Caddy, Buick, Saab), Toyota does pretty >> well. >> >> >> >>> Domestic do not offer some of the midget cars that the Japanese offer, >> >> You mean like the Chevy Aveo? Oh, I see what you mean: Chevy has to import >> it. >> >>> that get better miles when compare to their compact and midsize cars, >> >> That's true. In every category of car, an import brand car (often made in >> the US of mostly US parts), gets better mileage than the American brand in >> the same size catagory. >> >>> but they are ALL imported not assembled in the US like some of their >>> larger cars >> >> Like the Chevy Aveo. However, Toyota, Honda and other foreign car makers >> do make cars in the US with mostly US parts. Toyotas, on average >> (including cars that are made in the US and outside the US) have about 42% >> US content; Hondas just over 50%, according to a group supported by >> retired Detroit-3 workers (Level Field Institute). >> >> Jeff >> > |
Re: GM Closes 4 Suv and Truck Plants
"Jeff" <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:Bbn2k.240$1x.195@trndny06... Jeff, nice post, as to Mike: > Mike hunt wrote: > No, your opinion is not factual. The most fuel efficient model of > each type of car (midsize, subcompact, etc.) is made by a foreign > automaker, often a Japanese automaker. For example, each of the two > biggest automakers make more cars that get more than 30 mpg CITY > than GM and more cars that get 40 mpg highway than GM, too. Impala with V-6 beats the Toyota Avolon and its bigger, tied with the Camery v-6, and again the Chevy is bigger. To beat the Malibu 22/32 mpg you have to buy a hybred Camery 33/34 at substanially more money, the Pirus is listed as well, but its smaller than the Malibu, as is the Nissan smaller. Honda has nothing in the mid size class, although as far as I am concerned the Accord is a mid size, not a full size. The corolla wins over the Aveo (sedan 4 door) by 2 mpg highway, but has less passenger space in the subcomapct range, Cobalt XFE has higher mpg on highway then most everything in the class and ties the Honda /civic, yet has more horsepower, and more passenger room Its intertesting that www.fuleeconomy.gov stuck the Chevy HHR in with SUVs, still does better than most of them, and as in my opinion its a minivan it beats just about all in that class. The chevy 1500 with the small V-8 gets better gas mileage than the imports with a v-6, beats the Tundra with a V-6 by 1 mpg, the V-8 model by 2 mpg. In small trucks the Tocoma 4 banger beats the Colorado by 1 mpg, but has a smaller engine with less hp. To get 40mpg you have to buy a hybrid, and its a beer can most models, which is ok for city driving I guess. > > Interestingly, one can get higher power by using a lower gear. > That's why there is a transmission on the cars. > and dropping a gear raises the rpm substantionally and blows the fuel mileage out the window. Whitelightning |
Re: GM Closes 4 Suv and Truck Plants
In article <Bbn2k.240$1x.195@trndny06>, Jeff <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com>
wrote: > Interestingly, one can get higher >power XXX Nope, power is HP. TORQUE >by using a lower gear. That's > why there is a transmission on the cars. But your point is valid anyway. The facts are BIG displacement engines get poor urban fuel economy. It better to use a small engine with more flexible gearing. Top keep costs low some manufacturers, such as GM with the base Impalla, use only a 4 spd auto, which results in very poor driving flexibility. |
Re: GM Closes 4 Suv and Truck Plants
On 2008-06-07, Gordon McGrew <RgEmMcOgVrEew@mindspring.com> wrote:
> GOV. GEORGE W. BUSH (R-TX), PRESIDENT-ELECT: I told all four that > there were going to be some times where we don't agree with each > other. But that's OK. If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a > lot easier, just so long as I'm the dictator. > > http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP.../18/nd.01.html I am no fan of Georgie's, but this was clearly a joke. He never claimed he wanted to be dictator. He deadpanned that things would be a lot easier to get done if he were. Release your hate... It's not doing you any good... -- Joe - Linux User #449481/Ubuntu User #19733 joe at hits - buffalo dot com "Hate is baggage, life is too short to go around pissed off all the time..." - Danny, American History X |
Re: GM Closes 4 Suv and Truck Plants
In article <Dio2k.642$8q2.168@trnddc02>,
"Whitelightning" <white.lightning2@verizon.net> wrote: > Impala with V-6 beats the Toyota Avolon and its bigger, NOPE! The Impalla V6 with it's 4 spd auto is a shitty car to drive. EPA 18/29 The Impalla I rented had far too much spacing between 3rd and 4th gears. Avalon EPA 19/28 is the same for practical purposes. The Avalon has a slightly larger passenger volume and with it's 6 spd auto I know it will be much nicer to drive. The Camry 4 cyl 5 spd auto is EPA 21/31. IMO the Camry is the better mid sized car for mostly urban use. Carries 4 large adults, has a large trunk, and is easier to park than either the Impalla or Avalon. |
Re: GM Closes 4 Suv and Truck Plants
On Jun 7, 12:40 am, "Whitelightning" <white.lightni...@verizon.net>
wrote: > > > and dropping a gear raises the rpm substantionally and blows the fuel > mileage out the window. > > Whitelightning that's a valid point! however, proper transmission designs (auto) and shifting techniques (manual) are meant to save the engine's life, not fuel. Racing bicyclists know this too well. If a bicyclist doesnt drop gears when going uphill then he may save himself from some frenzied pedaling, but he'll get burned out before reaching the final line. |
Re: GM Closes 4 Suv and Truck Plants
Dan C <youmustbejoking@lan.invalid> wrote in
news:pan.2008.06.04.12.42.25.114116@moria.lan: > On Wed, 04 Jun 2008 03:39:50 +0000, Larry in AZ wrote: > >>> It's a fact of life, Junior. Sometimes shareholders lose money. >>> That's the way the stock market and the free enterprise system >>> works. As for the CEO making an "insane" amount of money... well, >>> it's certainly more than other GM employees make, but that's (also) >>> how things work. Those in charge get paid more. Simple fact of >>> life. Perhaps if you had more education, you could make some money, >>> yourself! > >> Hey -for-brains... For presiding over a $39 Billion loss, he got >> a 64 percent raise. > > It's a stressful job. I guess you've never been in charge of > anything, so it's no wonder you don't understand, dimwit. > > The "shareholders" are the real idiots here. Next to you, of course. > > I have a stressful job, too. And a Master's. I make .01 percent of that and if I were in charge of a division that lost that kind of money, I'd be out on my ass in a heartbeat. Stressful job, yeah right. |
Re: GM Closes 4 Suv and Truck Plants
<bi241@scn.org> wrote in message news:ec09add3-a634-4176-8bf9-453764095d71@a1g2000hsb.googlegroups.com... > On Jun 7, 12:40 am, "Whitelightning" <white.lightni...@verizon.net> > wrote: > >> >> >> and dropping a gear raises the rpm substantionally and blows the >> fuel >> mileage out the window. >> >> Whitelightning > > that's a valid point! > > however, proper transmission designs (auto) and shifting techniques > (manual) are meant to save the engine's life, not fuel. Racing > bicyclists know this too well. If a bicyclist doesnt drop gears when > going uphill then he may save himself from some frenzied pedaling, > but > he'll get burned out before reaching the final line. Point being on extreme grades, like the passes through the Rockies yeah its going to come out of over drive. But the engine should have enough torque and horsepower to pull light and moderate grades with out shifting like a yoyo. I can pull moderate grades at 65-70 mph in my Caviler with it loaded to the gunnels, its normal state of being for my current career and it delivers 32-34 mpg. It did the same on vacation earlier this year when we went up to upstate New York from Florida running through the Blue Ridge mountains. And then up through Fancy Gap then through central PA and finally up into the Adirondacks. We meandered a bit, I been in flat lands too long and needed a mountain fix bad lol. Point being these fuel efficient small engines have no guts, they depend on rpm to compensate. My Cavilear is the same way if I want to go like hell it will, and do it quickly, but it has to drop gears and wind out to do it and the gas mileage plunges like a rock. That makes them just fine for local driving, and urban living buts that's all. Then again the places building them that's all they are used for. People seem to forget that most countries that manufacture cars aren't as big as most of our states, and have used the trains for ever for travel. I should know as I lived in Europe for 4 1/2 years. Cant wait for the new GM 4.5 diesel to come out for light trucks. Whitelightning |
Re: GM Closes 4 Suv and Truck Plants
"Spam away" <Trashhere@spam.net> wrote in message news:Trashhere-E05A9C.22153906062008@news.telus.net... > In article <Dio2k.642$8q2.168@trnddc02>, > "Whitelightning" <white.lightning2@verizon.net> wrote: > > > The Camry 4 cyl 5 spd auto is EPA 21/31. > IMO the Camry is the better mid sized car for mostly urban use. > Carries 4 large adults, has a large trunk, and is easier to park > than > either the Impalla or Avalon. In your opinion you're correct the camry IS a mid size. The Impala on the other hand is a full size, or at least as close to a full size as you can get today. Whitelightning |
Re: GM Closes 4 Suv and Truck Plants
Gordon McGrew <RgEmMcOgVrEew@mindspring.com> wrote in
news:votj44deln9pv2oeslqfeo3d7hpkkir17q@4ax.com: > On 5 Jun 2008 00:03:02 GMT, Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote: > >>Gordon McGrew <RgEmMcOgVrEew@mindspring.com> wrote in >>news:dm8e449ihd25pj0mcsq1ch16lh84evmf1d@4ax.co m: >> >>> On Wed, 04 Jun 2008 07:48:29 -0500, Dan C >>><youmustbejoking@lan.invalid> wrote: >>> >>>>On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 23:27:46 -0500, Gordon McGrew wrote: >>>> >>>>>>It's a fact of life, Junior. Sometimes shareholders lose money. >>>>>>That's the way the stock market and the free enterprise system >>>>>>works. As for the CEO making an "insane" amount of money... well, >>>>>>it's certainly more than other GM employees make, but that's >>>>>>(also) how things work. Those in charge get paid more. Simple >>>>>>fact of life. Perhaps if you had more education, you could make >>>>>>some money, yourself! >>>> >>>>> Here is a fact for you. Rick Wagoner, CEO of GM got total >>>>> compensation last year of over $14 million. That is more than the >>>>> compensation of the CEO and the 36 board members of Honda Motor >>>>> Company combined. Honda had record sales last month. How is GM >>>>> doing? Oh, that's right, the death spiral thing - never mind. >>>> >>>>How much he makes in comparison to other executives (especially >>>>foreigners) is completely irrelevant. He was paid an amount that >>>>was decided upon by the board of directors, who are supposed to be >>>>the direct >>> >>> "supposed to" being the operative statement here. >>> >>>>representatives of the shareholders. Blame the board, and the >>>>shareholders, for paying him too much, if you must blame someone. >>> >>> Blame the Board (aka his golf buddies), sure. The stockholders' >>> only real vote is to sell. Considering that GM stock is worth no >>> more now than it was in 1960, I think a lot of them have already >>> voted. >>> >>>>> Anyway, US executives are paid obscene amounts of money not just >>>>> in comparison to "other employees," but compared to their foreign >>>>> counterparts. Hard to see the value here. The truth is that >>>>> American companies are - more and more - being run for the benefit >>>>> of the executives rather than the stockholders or, god forbid, the >>>>> mainstream workers. >>>> >>>>Jesus, did none of you ever study economics and the free enterprise >>>>system? This isn't a commune trying to the wealth amongst >>>>everyone equally. This is a ing American business, whose goals >>>>are (and should be) to make the maximum profit possible for the >>>>company. >>> >>> I agree, that should be the goal. I am telling you that you are >>> naive. The purpose of the company is to make the top executives as >>> rich as possible. >>> >>>> How that company >>>>decides to compensate it's directors/executives and other workers is >>>>decided by the company. Rick Wagoner didn't set his own salary, the >>>>goddam board of directors (and shareholders) did. Don't blame the >>>>dude for accepting what they offer to pay him. >>> >>> And when he sits on the board of their company, don't blame them for >>> accepting what Rick Wagoner gives them. >>> >>>>We've got enough socialism in the country already. Just look at the >>>>circus which is the Democrat party if you want to see that. >>> >>> Democracy is so untidy. Let's just make Bush dictator like he said >>> he wanted. >>> >>> >> >>It appears YOU are the one who wants to assign "dictator" powers to >>the government. > > GOV. GEORGE W. BUSH (R-TX), PRESIDENT-ELECT: I told all four that > there were going to be some times where we don't agree with each > other. But that's OK. If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a > lot easier, just so long as I'm the dictator. He's NOT saying he wants a dictatorship. Evidently you missed where Bush said "IF". Seems he was making a joke,or an observation about dictators. (dictatorships are "fine" as long as -you- are the dictator...) > > http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP.../18/nd.01.html > > >>YOU want the government to dictate to companies how much they can pay >>for certain jobs. > > I have clearly stated otherwise. You seem to be inconsistent then,as you complain about the BOD not being responsive to the shareholders,but you offer no other solution. -- Jim Yanik jyanik at kua.net |
Re: GM Closes 4 Suv and Truck Plants
On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 18:01:01 -0400, "Mike hunt" <mikehunt22@lycos.com>
wrote: >What color is the sky in your world? The fuel economy of American cars the >same size as made by the Japanese is as good as or better than Japanese >cars, look at the CAFE lists. GM for example, offers more car that get 30 >MPG or more than does ANY import brand. I don't recall mentioning mpg. I think I mentioned QUALITY. Deming taught them to continuously improve quality as a way to long term success. GM concentrates on continuously reducing "costs". Those two approaches are diametrically opposed. GM is also the most pig headed corporation around, but that's another discussion for another day. |
Re: GM Closes 4 Suv and Truck Plants
On Sat, 07 Jun 2008 00:09:20 -0500, Joe <joe@nospam.hits-buffalo.com>
wrote: >On 2008-06-07, Gordon McGrew <RgEmMcOgVrEew@mindspring.com> wrote: > >> GOV. GEORGE W. BUSH (R-TX), PRESIDENT-ELECT: I told all four that >> there were going to be some times where we don't agree with each >> other. But that's OK. If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a >> lot easier, just so long as I'm the dictator. >> >> http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP.../18/nd.01.html > >I am no fan of Georgie's, but this was clearly a joke. He never >claimed he wanted to be dictator. He deadpanned that things would be >a lot easier to get done if he were. Many a truth is spoken in jest. >Release your hate... It's not doing you any good... Why is it hate when I point out that Bush acts like a dictator and endorsed himself for the position, but not hate when you accuse me of advocating dictatorship when I point out that $13 million might be excessive compensation for driving a company into the ground? |
Re: GM Closes 4 Suv and Truck Plants
On 7 Jun 2008 19:11:08 GMT, Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote:
>Gordon McGrew <RgEmMcOgVrEew@mindspring.com> wrote in >news:votj44deln9pv2oeslqfeo3d7hpkkir17q@4ax.com : > >> On 5 Jun 2008 00:03:02 GMT, Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote: >> >>>Gordon McGrew <RgEmMcOgVrEew@mindspring.com> wrote in >>>news:dm8e449ihd25pj0mcsq1ch16lh84evmf1d@4ax.com : >>> >>>> On Wed, 04 Jun 2008 07:48:29 -0500, Dan C >>>><youmustbejoking@lan.invalid> wrote: >>>> >>>>>On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 23:27:46 -0500, Gordon McGrew wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>>It's a fact of life, Junior. Sometimes shareholders lose money. >>>>>>>That's the way the stock market and the free enterprise system >>>>>>>works. As for the CEO making an "insane" amount of money... well, >>>>>>>it's certainly more than other GM employees make, but that's >>>>>>>(also) how things work. Those in charge get paid more. Simple >>>>>>>fact of life. Perhaps if you had more education, you could make >>>>>>>some money, yourself! >>>>> >>>>>> Here is a fact for you. Rick Wagoner, CEO of GM got total >>>>>> compensation last year of over $14 million. That is more than the >>>>>> compensation of the CEO and the 36 board members of Honda Motor >>>>>> Company combined. Honda had record sales last month. How is GM >>>>>> doing? Oh, that's right, the death spiral thing - never mind. >>>>> >>>>>How much he makes in comparison to other executives (especially >>>>>foreigners) is completely irrelevant. He was paid an amount that >>>>>was decided upon by the board of directors, who are supposed to be >>>>>the direct >>>> >>>> "supposed to" being the operative statement here. >>>> >>>>>representatives of the shareholders. Blame the board, and the >>>>>shareholders, for paying him too much, if you must blame someone. >>>> >>>> Blame the Board (aka his golf buddies), sure. The stockholders' >>>> only real vote is to sell. Considering that GM stock is worth no >>>> more now than it was in 1960, I think a lot of them have already >>>> voted. >>>> >>>>>> Anyway, US executives are paid obscene amounts of money not just >>>>>> in comparison to "other employees," but compared to their foreign >>>>>> counterparts. Hard to see the value here. The truth is that >>>>>> American companies are - more and more - being run for the benefit >>>>>> of the executives rather than the stockholders or, god forbid, the >>>>>> mainstream workers. >>>>> >>>>>Jesus, did none of you ever study economics and the free enterprise >>>>>system? This isn't a commune trying to the wealth amongst >>>>>everyone equally. This is a ing American business, whose goals >>>>>are (and should be) to make the maximum profit possible for the >>>>>company. >>>> >>>> I agree, that should be the goal. I am telling you that you are >>>> naive. The purpose of the company is to make the top executives as >>>> rich as possible. >>>> >>>>> How that company >>>>>decides to compensate it's directors/executives and other workers is >>>>>decided by the company. Rick Wagoner didn't set his own salary, the >>>>>goddam board of directors (and shareholders) did. Don't blame the >>>>>dude for accepting what they offer to pay him. >>>> >>>> And when he sits on the board of their company, don't blame them for >>>> accepting what Rick Wagoner gives them. >>>> >>>>>We've got enough socialism in the country already. Just look at the >>>>>circus which is the Democrat party if you want to see that. >>>> >>>> Democracy is so untidy. Let's just make Bush dictator like he said >>>> he wanted. >>>> >>>> >>> >>>It appears YOU are the one who wants to assign "dictator" powers to >>>the government. >> >> GOV. GEORGE W. BUSH (R-TX), PRESIDENT-ELECT: I told all four that >> there were going to be some times where we don't agree with each >> other. But that's OK. If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a >> lot easier, just so long as I'm the dictator. > >He's NOT saying he wants a dictatorship. >Evidently you missed where Bush said "IF". Seems he was making a joke,or >an observation about dictators. >(dictatorships are "fine" as long as -you- are the dictator...) > >> >> http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP.../18/nd.01.html >> >> >>>YOU want the government to dictate to companies how much they can pay >>>for certain jobs. >> >> I have clearly stated otherwise. > >You seem to be inconsistent then,as you complain about the BOD not being >responsive to the shareholders,but you offer no other solution. But I did offer a solution. If we tax all compensation above say $2 million at an 80% tax rate, it will greatly diminish the incentive to award yourself a huge pay day. If you jack up the compensation to compensate for the tax rate, it will be even more unjustifiable in terms of cost to the company and at least the stolen money will go into the Treasury rather than the pockets of these thieves. Do you really believe they couldn't find someone at least as competent as Wagoner for $2 million? |
Re: GM Closes 4 Suv and Truck Plants
Gordon McGrew <RgEmMcOgVrEew@mindspring.com> wrote in
news:dmun44top01oa8d8bhpr6jjshkm62q55ip@4ax.com: > On Sat, 07 Jun 2008 00:09:20 -0500, Joe <joe@nospam.hits-buffalo.com> > wrote: > >>On 2008-06-07, Gordon McGrew <RgEmMcOgVrEew@mindspring.com> wrote: >> >>> GOV. GEORGE W. BUSH (R-TX), PRESIDENT-ELECT: I told all four that >>> there were going to be some times where we don't agree with each >>> other. But that's OK. If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a >>> lot easier, just so long as I'm the dictator. >>> >>> http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP.../18/nd.01.html >> >>I am no fan of Georgie's, but this was clearly a joke. He never >>claimed he wanted to be dictator. He deadpanned that things would be >>a lot easier to get done if he were. > > Many a truth is spoken in jest. that's just BDS;Bush Derangement Syndrome. > >>Release your hate... It's not doing you any good... > > Why is it hate when I point out that Bush acts like a dictator and > endorsed himself for the position, Bush did no such thing.That is just what you read into it. You're deluded if you believe Bush "acts like a dictator". He did a lot of diplomacy before he decided on action.Talk alone doesn't always succeed. > but not hate when you accuse me of > advocating dictatorship when I point out that $13 million might be > excessive compensation for driving a company into the ground? > > it probably is,but that's still no reason to involve gov't regulation,and you haven't suggested any -other- method of correcting "excessive compensation. You just whine that it's a "boy's club" and that shareholder voting is ineffective. -- Jim Yanik jyanik at kua.net |
Re: GM Closes 4 Suv and Truck Plants
Gordon McGrew <RgEmMcOgVrEew@mindspring.com> wrote in
news:utun44tb09e9eu3vntuhsvaabshdbg0obl@4ax.com: > On 7 Jun 2008 19:11:08 GMT, Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote: > >>Gordon McGrew <RgEmMcOgVrEew@mindspring.com> wrote in >>news:votj44deln9pv2oeslqfeo3d7hpkkir17q@4ax.co m: >> >>> On 5 Jun 2008 00:03:02 GMT, Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote: >>> >>>>Gordon McGrew <RgEmMcOgVrEew@mindspring.com> wrote in >>>>news:dm8e449ihd25pj0mcsq1ch16lh84evmf1d@4ax.co m: >>>> >>>>> On Wed, 04 Jun 2008 07:48:29 -0500, Dan C >>>>><youmustbejoking@lan.invalid> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 23:27:46 -0500, Gordon McGrew wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>>It's a fact of life, Junior. Sometimes shareholders lose money. >>>>>>>>That's the way the stock market and the free enterprise system >>>>>>>>works. As for the CEO making an "insane" amount of money... >>>>>>>>well, it's certainly more than other GM employees make, but >>>>>>>>that's (also) how things work. Those in charge get paid more. >>>>>>>>Simple fact of life. Perhaps if you had more education, you >>>>>>>>could make some money, yourself! >>>>>> >>>>>>> Here is a fact for you. Rick Wagoner, CEO of GM got total >>>>>>> compensation last year of over $14 million. That is more than >>>>>>> the compensation of the CEO and the 36 board members of Honda >>>>>>> Motor Company combined. Honda had record sales last month. How >>>>>>> is GM doing? Oh, that's right, the death spiral thing - never >>>>>>> mind. >>>>>> >>>>>>How much he makes in comparison to other executives (especially >>>>>>foreigners) is completely irrelevant. He was paid an amount that >>>>>>was decided upon by the board of directors, who are supposed to be >>>>>>the direct >>>>> >>>>> "supposed to" being the operative statement here. >>>>> >>>>>>representatives of the shareholders. Blame the board, and the >>>>>>shareholders, for paying him too much, if you must blame someone. >>>>> >>>>> Blame the Board (aka his golf buddies), sure. The stockholders' >>>>> only real vote is to sell. Considering that GM stock is worth no >>>>> more now than it was in 1960, I think a lot of them have already >>>>> voted. >>>>> >>>>>>> Anyway, US executives are paid obscene amounts of money not just >>>>>>> in comparison to "other employees," but compared to their >>>>>>> foreign counterparts. Hard to see the value here. The truth is >>>>>>> that American companies are - more and more - being run for the >>>>>>> benefit of the executives rather than the stockholders or, god >>>>>>> forbid, the mainstream workers. >>>>>> >>>>>>Jesus, did none of you ever study economics and the free >>>>>>enterprise system? This isn't a commune trying to the >>>>>>wealth amongst everyone equally. This is a ing American >>>>>>business, whose goals are (and should be) to make the maximum >>>>>>profit possible for the company. >>>>> >>>>> I agree, that should be the goal. I am telling you that you are >>>>> naive. The purpose of the company is to make the top executives >>>>> as rich as possible. >>>>> >>>>>> How that company >>>>>>decides to compensate it's directors/executives and other workers >>>>>>is decided by the company. Rick Wagoner didn't set his own >>>>>>salary, the goddam board of directors (and shareholders) did. >>>>>>Don't blame the dude for accepting what they offer to pay him. >>>>> >>>>> And when he sits on the board of their company, don't blame them >>>>> for accepting what Rick Wagoner gives them. >>>>> >>>>>>We've got enough socialism in the country already. Just look at >>>>>>the circus which is the Democrat party if you want to see that. >>>>> >>>>> Democracy is so untidy. Let's just make Bush dictator like he >>>>> said he wanted. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>It appears YOU are the one who wants to assign "dictator" powers to >>>>the government. >>> >>> GOV. GEORGE W. BUSH (R-TX), PRESIDENT-ELECT: I told all four that >>> there were going to be some times where we don't agree with each >>> other. But that's OK. If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of >>> a lot easier, just so long as I'm the dictator. >> >>He's NOT saying he wants a dictatorship. >>Evidently you missed where Bush said "IF". Seems he was making a >>joke,or an observation about dictators. >>(dictatorships are "fine" as long as -you- are the dictator...) >> >>> >>> http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP.../18/nd.01.html >>> >>> >>>>YOU want the government to dictate to companies how much they can >>>>pay for certain jobs. >>> >>> I have clearly stated otherwise. >> >>You seem to be inconsistent then,as you complain about the BOD not >>being responsive to the shareholders,but you offer no other solution. > > But I did offer a solution. If we tax all compensation above say $2 > million at an 80% tax rate, it will greatly diminish the incentive to > award yourself a huge pay day. And you thus LIE when you say you don't want to involve government. Taxation IS a government function. AND you want to use taxation punitively. Taxation is for raising revenue,not for punishment. You WOULD be a "dictator".You want to dictate arbitrary limits on exec pay,without any factual basis. > If you jack up the compensation to > compensate for the tax rate, it will be even more unjustifiable in > terms of cost to the company and at least the stolen money will go > into the Treasury rather than the pockets of these thieves. Ah,yes,expanding government. Then your socialists can dish it out for pet projects and costly,useless social programs that make things worse,long-term,as they have in the past. > > Do you really believe they couldn't find someone at least as competent > as Wagoner for $2 million? > -- Jim Yanik jyanik at kua.net |
Re: GM Closes 4 Suv and Truck Plants
"Mike hunt" wrote:
The fuel economy of American cars the same size as made by the Japanese is as good as or better than Japanese cars, look at the CAFE lists. GM for example, offers more cars that get 30 MPG or more than does ANY import brand. ________________________________________________ "still just me" wrote: I didn't mean mpg. I meant QUALITY. GM is also the most pig-headed corporation around. _______________________________________________ That'll put Mike in his place. He can talk of measurable things like mpg but he can't deny that you have personal opinions about 'quality' and 'pig-headedness'. Touche. Rodan. |
Re: GM Closes 4 Suv and Truck Plants
On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 03:33:40 GMT, "Rodan" <Rodan@verizon.NOT> wrote:
> "Mike hunt" wrote: > >The fuel economy of American cars the same size as made >by the Japanese is as good as or better than Japanese >cars, look at the CAFE lists. GM for example, offers more >cars that get 30 MPG or more than does ANY import brand. >_______________________________________________ _ > >"still just me" wrote: > >I didn't mean mpg. I meant QUALITY. >GM is also the most pig-headed corporation around. If you're going to quote someone, please do it accurately or at the very least, try paraphrasing without totally changing the meaning of what someone posted. Here's what I actually said: >>I don't recall mentioning mpg. I think I mentioned QUALITY. Deming >>taught them to continuously improve quality as a way to long term >>success. GM concentrates on continuously reducing "costs". Those two >>approaches are diametrically opposed. >>GM is also the most pig headed corporation around, but that's another >>discussion for another da Mike Hunt brought up MPG in response to my original post. But, I made no statements concerning MPG in my original post. That was something he brought up on his own. I don't see how mpg relates to discussions of quality except very abstractly. The point remains - the Japanese whooped our butts in the auto industry by concentrating on continuously improving quality. >_______________________________________________ > >That'll put Mike in his place. He can talk of measurable >things like mpg but he can't deny that you have personal >opinions about 'quality' and 'pig-headedness'. > >Touche. > >Rodan. Again, mpg is not really pertinent to a macro discussion of why he Japanese kicked our butts. Their cars could have gotten mileage twice what US built cars did and they still would not have sold very many. What allowed them to grab market share was concentrating on continuous improving quality and thereby producing products that over time gained tremendous loyalty from the public (just as Deming taught them). You might want to go do some reading on Deming - although I sense that you don't really want to learn. As for the pig-headedness, it's a fact: GM has driven every talented board member who's joined them off the board in just a few years. In most cases the talent has come in with a large stock stake and been willing to take a major financial loss just to get out. Why? Because GM is run by a bunch of pig headed zealots who live in the past and refuse to listen to anyone but themselves. Again, do some learning. |
Re: GM Closes 4 Suv and Truck Plants
"Mike hunt" <mikehunt22@lycos.com> wrote in message news:RaOdnUP7LvGD9NTVnZ2dnUVZ_jWdnZ2d@ptd.net... > Where did I say domestic do not import cars? You can pick and choose all > you want and believe whatever you choose, but what I posted is factual and > that is the fuel economy of American cars the same size as made by the > Japanese is as good as or better than Japanese cars, look at the CAFE > lists. In addition one does not need to settle for an underpowered car, > like the 4cy Camry, to get decent mileage when the buy a domestic. > Import brand penchant to spin their engines to higher RPMs so they can > advertize higher HP figures greatly effects the torque that one needs to > get the vehicle moving and keep it going up a grade. That basic > engineering fact reduces ones actual fuel mileage when one drives in hilly > or mountainous parts of the country. > > The US Commerce Department does not agree with the domestic content > numbers you site, in any event > > "Jeff" <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com> wrote in message > news:MH_1k.2502$v%.1415@trndny04... >> Mike hunt wrote: >>> What color is the sky in your world? The fuel economy of American cars >>> the same size as made by the Japanese is as good as or better than >>> Japanese cars, look at the CAFE lists. >> >> Really? For every single catagory of cars (2 seater, Minicompact, >> Subcompact, Compact, Midisize, Large, small station wagon or midsize >> station wagon), the vehicle with the best mileage is a foreign car. >> >> > GM for example, offers more car that get 30 >>> MPG or more than does ANY import brand. >> >> Big whoop! GM has more brands than any import brand. >> >> GM cars made in North America that get more than 29 mpg highway: >> >> Chevy Cobalt, Malibu, Classic, Pontiac G5, G6, Vibe, >> >> The Chevy Aveo (Korea) and Saturn Astra (Belgium) are made in either Asia >> or Europe. >> >> Toyota Cars that 29 mpg (highway): >> >> Yaris, Camry, Corolla, Prius, Matrix, Scion xD >> >> So Toyota sells as many models that get 30 mpg that are made in the US by >> GM. >> >> And Toyota makes two models that get more than 30 mpg CITY. >> >> So, considering that Toyota has 3 brands (toyota, Lexus, Scion) and GM >> has 7 (GMC, Hummy, Chevy, Pontiac, Caddy, Buick, Saab), Toyota does >> pretty well. >> >> >> >>> Domestic do not offer some of the midget cars that the Japanese offer, >> >> You mean like the Chevy Aveo? Oh, I see what you mean: Chevy has to >> import it. >> >>> that get better miles when compare to their compact and midsize cars, >> >> That's true. In every category of car, an import brand car (often made in >> the US of mostly US parts), gets better mileage than the American brand >> in the same size catagory. >> >>> but they are ALL imported not assembled in the US like some of their >>> larger cars >> >> Like the Chevy Aveo. However, Toyota, Honda and other foreign car makers >> do make cars in the US with mostly US parts. Toyotas, on average >> (including cars that are made in the US and outside the US) have about >> 42% US content; Hondas just over 50%, according to a group supported by >> retired Detroit-3 workers (Level Field Institute). >> >> Jeff >> > >The Cafe list is misleading. This argument about gas mileage is pointless. >Because the US isn't getting the cars with fantastic mileage. And doesn't >even grasp the concept of city cars. Even though it was created in America. >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crosley Also Americans failed to buy and >demand such cars. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_cars Here's a slew >of high mileage cars. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vw_polo >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Vitz >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Matiz >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Micra >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SEAT_Ibiza >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Versa#Engines Since a slew of cars >get 40-50 miles per gallon. Sometimes 60 . Like the Ford Ka with a >diesel. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Ka >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peugeot_1007 >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_Panda The Ka has proved highly profitable for Ford despite its low selling price, largely due to the lack of spending required in its development. It has been the best selling car in its class in the United Kingdom for a number of years and commands around a fifth of the city car market. Canada's hottest seller for years wasn't accepted here. Because it had controversial looks and instrument cluster that people hated or loved. With the correct engine both these cars get over 50-60 mpg. The Toyota Echo is a model name previously used by the Toyota Motor Corporation on the export version of two different models. a.. The Toyota Platz (1999 - 2005) sold as the Toyota Echo in North America and the Middle East. b.. The first generation Toyota Vitz Sold in Canada (1999 - 2005) and sold as the Toyota Echo in Australia and Taiwan, several other Asian markets, and also in Canada from 2004 to 2005 as the Toyota Echo hatchback. It is now sold in all those markets as the Yaris. The Yaris is sold in South America and the Caribbean. Its sold mostly in Aruba and has some illegal chains in Bolivia. And now the US. .. Also Cafe statistics are picked in 5mpg increments. You pick cars in 5 miles per gallon increments and you cant see the differences in 1 to 4 miles per gallon. This argument is pointless. The Scion brand has their mileage reduced to increase performance. From the drivetrain they were made from. The first generation Toyota Yaris. And most if not all jap / euro / VW supermini cars such as the Ford Fiesta http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Fiesta , Renault Clio, Vauxhill Corsa. have smaller engines that get better mileage then shown by Cafe. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Ka However the cars aren't here . Or here with those high mileage engines . The Yaris/ Echo/ Scion, had a 1.0 liter that isn't here. The US 2006 Yaris get 40 mpg highway and 34 city. People are getting 60 mpg in Echos in Canada. But my 2005 Echo that gets 41 highway and 35 city with an auto OD transmission. You can compare all day. But GM and Ford are political powerhouses. All US sellers of cars are guilty of limiting the high mileage cars available in the US. I mean cars getting 40-60 mpg are across the Canadian border . GM and Ford are most guilty because they don't have the high mileage cars to sell. But if you wish to argue mileage. Compare against the cars that aren't here for political and monetary reasons. Some by GM and Ford/ Chrysler themselves. Then as you can see. GM and gas mileage shouldn't be spoken in the same sentence. |
Re: GM Closes 4 Suv and Truck Plants
On 8 Jun 2008 21:37:08 GMT, Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote:
>Bush did no such thing.That is just what you read into it. >You're deluded if you believe Bush "acts like a dictator". >He did a lot of diplomacy before he decided on action.Talk alone doesn't >always succeed. Pulease. |
Re: GM Closes 4 Suv and Truck Plants
On 8 Jun 2008 21:43:31 GMT, Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote:
>Gordon McGrew <RgEmMcOgVrEew@mindspring.com> wrote in >news:utun44tb09e9eu3vntuhsvaabshdbg0obl@4ax.com : > >> On 7 Jun 2008 19:11:08 GMT, Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote: >> >>>Gordon McGrew <RgEmMcOgVrEew@mindspring.com> wrote in >>>news:votj44deln9pv2oeslqfeo3d7hpkkir17q@4ax.com : >>> >>>> On 5 Jun 2008 00:03:02 GMT, Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote: >>>> >>>>>Gordon McGrew <RgEmMcOgVrEew@mindspring.com> wrote in >>>>>news:dm8e449ihd25pj0mcsq1ch16lh84evmf1d@4ax.c om: >>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, 04 Jun 2008 07:48:29 -0500, Dan C >>>>>><youmustbejoking@lan.invalid> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 23:27:46 -0500, Gordon McGrew wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>It's a fact of life, Junior. Sometimes shareholders lose money. >>>>>>>>>That's the way the stock market and the free enterprise system >>>>>>>>>works. As for the CEO making an "insane" amount of money... >>>>>>>>>well, it's certainly more than other GM employees make, but >>>>>>>>>that's (also) how things work. Those in charge get paid more. >>>>>>>>>Simple fact of life. Perhaps if you had more education, you >>>>>>>>>could make some money, yourself! >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Here is a fact for you. Rick Wagoner, CEO of GM got total >>>>>>>> compensation last year of over $14 million. That is more than >>>>>>>> the compensation of the CEO and the 36 board members of Honda >>>>>>>> Motor Company combined. Honda had record sales last month. How >>>>>>>> is GM doing? Oh, that's right, the death spiral thing - never >>>>>>>> mind. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>How much he makes in comparison to other executives (especially >>>>>>>foreigners) is completely irrelevant. He was paid an amount that >>>>>>>was decided upon by the board of directors, who are supposed to be >>>>>>>the direct >>>>>> >>>>>> "supposed to" being the operative statement here. >>>>>> >>>>>>>representatives of the shareholders. Blame the board, and the >>>>>>>shareholders, for paying him too much, if you must blame someone. >>>>>> >>>>>> Blame the Board (aka his golf buddies), sure. The stockholders' >>>>>> only real vote is to sell. Considering that GM stock is worth no >>>>>> more now than it was in 1960, I think a lot of them have already >>>>>> voted. >>>>>> >>>>>>>> Anyway, US executives are paid obscene amounts of money not just >>>>>>>> in comparison to "other employees," but compared to their >>>>>>>> foreign counterparts. Hard to see the value here. The truth is >>>>>>>> that American companies are - more and more - being run for the >>>>>>>> benefit of the executives rather than the stockholders or, god >>>>>>>> forbid, the mainstream workers. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Jesus, did none of you ever study economics and the free >>>>>>>enterprise system? This isn't a commune trying to the >>>>>>>wealth amongst everyone equally. This is a ing American >>>>>>>business, whose goals are (and should be) to make the maximum >>>>>>>profit possible for the company. >>>>>> >>>>>> I agree, that should be the goal. I am telling you that you are >>>>>> naive. The purpose of the company is to make the top executives >>>>>> as rich as possible. >>>>>> >>>>>>> How that company >>>>>>>decides to compensate it's directors/executives and other workers >>>>>>>is decided by the company. Rick Wagoner didn't set his own >>>>>>>salary, the goddam board of directors (and shareholders) did. >>>>>>>Don't blame the dude for accepting what they offer to pay him. >>>>>> >>>>>> And when he sits on the board of their company, don't blame them >>>>>> for accepting what Rick Wagoner gives them. >>>>>> >>>>>>>We've got enough socialism in the country already. Just look at >>>>>>>the circus which is the Democrat party if you want to see that. >>>>>> >>>>>> Democracy is so untidy. Let's just make Bush dictator like he >>>>>> said he wanted. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>It appears YOU are the one who wants to assign "dictator" powers to >>>>>the government. >>>> >>>> GOV. GEORGE W. BUSH (R-TX), PRESIDENT-ELECT: I told all four that >>>> there were going to be some times where we don't agree with each >>>> other. But that's OK. If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of >>>> a lot easier, just so long as I'm the dictator. >>> >>>He's NOT saying he wants a dictatorship. >>>Evidently you missed where Bush said "IF". Seems he was making a >>>joke,or an observation about dictators. >>>(dictatorships are "fine" as long as -you- are the dictator...) >>> >>>> >>>> http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP.../18/nd.01.html >>>> >>>> >>>>>YOU want the government to dictate to companies how much they can >>>>>pay for certain jobs. >>>> >>>> I have clearly stated otherwise. >>> >>>You seem to be inconsistent then,as you complain about the BOD not >>>being responsive to the shareholders,but you offer no other solution. >> >> But I did offer a solution. If we tax all compensation above say $2 >> million at an 80% tax rate, it will greatly diminish the incentive to >> award yourself a huge pay day. > > >And you thus LIE when you say you don't want to involve government. >Taxation IS a government function. Where did I say I didn't want to involve the government? I said that the government should dictate how much an executive is paid. Obviously the government has the right to set tax rates. >AND you want to use taxation punitively. >Taxation is for raising revenue,not for punishment. Tell that to the "conservatives" who set punitive tax rates on drugs which they previously made illegal. >You WOULD be a "dictator".You want to dictate arbitrary limits on exec >pay,without any factual basis. Again, no such thing. They can pay him a billion dollars if they want. He would clear $200 million after taxes. If that's not enough, they can pay him more. >> If you jack up the compensation to >> compensate for the tax rate, it will be even more unjustifiable in >> terms of cost to the company and at least the stolen money will go >> into the Treasury rather than the pockets of these thieves. > >Ah,yes,expanding government. We don't need to expand the government to justify more taxation. We still have to pay for Dick and George's Excellent Adventure in Iraq. >Then your socialists can dish it out for pet projects and costly,useless >social programs that make things worse,long-term,as they have in the past. You mean like universal health care that every other citizen in every other country that is not a sinking shithole gets? |
Re: GM Closes 4 Suv and Truck Plants
On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 22:38:54 -0500, Gordon McGrew wrote:
>>Then your socialists can dish it out for pet projects and costly,useless >>social programs that make things worse,long-term,as they have in the past. > You mean like universal health care that every other citizen in every > other country that is not a sinking shithole gets? Yeah, like that. Yet another useless and costly social program. that. If you don't like the USA, why don't you ing leave, dickmunch? Go find yourself a nice, cozy ing communist/socialist bullshit country, and enjoy their "free" healthcare. Just right off and die, asswipe. -- "Ubuntu" -- an African word, meaning "Slackware is too hard for me". Now filtering out all posts originating from Google Groups. The Usenet Improvement Project: http://improve-usenet.org |
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