Hair line fracture in engine block
 

What do you think about this one: I gave my car in for the 30,000 mile
service and since then I have had only heartache. First they replaced
the transmission when some lights on the dash board indicated a problem
with the transmission (or was it the engine?), next I noticed I had a
leak. It is possible that the leak has always been there but I never
would believe that a 3 year old car would be leaking! I gave it in.
First they said it was the casket, next they tell me that I have a hair
line fracture in the engine block.
I opened a case with Honda as the dealer said that Honda refused to
replace the engnine only fix it wish sealant. I notified honda that I
would accept nothing less than a new engine. Rediculous for me to
accept anthing less. Is honda going to tell me that they produce such
junk that cracks after three years? Is this related to the 30k service
or is this a manufacturering fault?
My wife is planning to make a cursade from this and contact all public
means possible i.e radio, TV, consumer afairs and BBB. In addition, we
have a relative who is an attorney who will help us with this.
I searched this site for someone with a similar issue.
Alex Adler
Brooklyn, NY

Re: Hair line fracture in engine block
 

Alex Adler - Brooklyn NY wrote:
> What do you think about this one: I gave my car in for the 30,000 mile
> service and since then I have had only heartache. First they replaced
> the transmission when some lights on the dash board indicated a problem
> with the transmission (or was it the engine?), next I noticed I had a
> leak. It is possible that the leak has always been there but I never
> would believe that a 3 year old car would be leaking! I gave it in.
> First they said it was the casket, next they tell me that I have a hair
> line fracture in the engine block.
> I opened a case with Honda as the dealer said that Honda refused to
> replace the engnine only fix it wish sealant. I notified honda that I
> would accept nothing less than a new engine. Rediculous for me to
> accept anthing less. Is honda going to tell me that they produce such
> junk that cracks after three years? Is this related to the 30k service
> or is this a manufacturering fault?
> My wife is planning to make a cursade from this and contact all public
> means possible i.e radio, TV, consumer afairs and BBB. In addition, we
> have a relative who is an attorney who will help us with this.
> I searched this site for someone with a similar issue.
> Alex Adler
> Brooklyn, NY
>
1. it's definitely a manufacturing defect
2. replacement is reasonable.
3. call the national honda usa customer care #. don't waste time
threatening some dumb-ass dealer.
4. before you get an attorney involved, get an independant technical
evaluation done evidencing the crack. that'll be useful in your
discussion with customer care.
5. be sure it's a crack, not porosity. porosity, while not really
acceptible, is not much of a threat of sudden failure. cracking
definitely is.
6. these things happen. it's not likely, but they do happen. just get
it replaced and move on.

Re: Hair line fracture in engine block
 

"Alex Adler - Brooklyn NY" <aadler@ctvi.com> wrote in message
news:1132626886.268348.52060@g47g2000cwa.googlegro ups.com...
> What do you think about this one: I gave my car in for the 30,000 mile
> service and since then I have had only heartache. First they replaced
> the transmission when some lights on the dash board indicated a problem
> with the transmission (or was it the engine?), next I noticed I had a
> leak. It is possible that the leak has always been there but I never
> would believe that a 3 year old car would be leaking! I gave it in.
> First they said it was the casket, next they tell me that I have a hair
> line fracture in the engine block.
> I opened a case with Honda as the dealer said that Honda refused to
> replace the engnine only fix it wish sealant. I notified honda that I
> would accept nothing less than a new engine. Rediculous for me to
> accept anthing less. Is honda going to tell me that they produce such
> junk that cracks after three years? Is this related to the 30k service
> or is this a manufacturering fault?
> My wife is planning to make a cursade from this and contact all public
> means possible i.e radio, TV, consumer afairs and BBB. In addition, we
> have a relative who is an attorney who will help us with this.
> I searched this site for someone with a similar issue.
> Alex Adler
> Brooklyn, NY
>
I agree with everything jim beam says, but I put an accent on the likelihood
of porosity. Whether Honda will okay a complete replacement in that event is
uncertain, since patching is often the approved fix for porosity leaks; it
is a permanent repair when done properly. 3 years or 30K miles is about par
for porosity to make itself obvious. It's a manufacturing defect that is
more common with some years/makes/models than others. Volvo had a bad run of
porous blocks in the early '90s, with it usually showing up as oil seepage.

Mike

Re: Hair line fracture in engine block
 

where is the crack relative to the transmission???....

could the crack have been caused by improperly torquing the
transmission bolts to the engine?

Mark

Re: Hair line fracture in engine block
 

Honda seems to be having some significant quality issues with it's
aluminum casting process. The automatic transmission on my '03 Accord
was finally replaced under warranty for a leaking case, after they tried
"sealing" the crack with JB Weld. My sister-in-laws '05 Civic Hybrid
just got a new engine at 8,000 miles due to oil leaking out of the
engine casting.

You would think that Honda would have it's basic aluminum casting
process under strict quality control, but clearly they do not.

John

Re: Hair line fracture in engine block
 

It is sitting by the dealer right now. I am hearing two stories. The
dealer tells me that it is a hairline engine fracture. I opened a case
with Honda and the customer relation rep is telling me that it is a
porus engine block. I am not getting one story.
If this is a significant quality issue, it should be addressed by those
attoneys that love class action law suits as we can really force them
to behave.
Please check this site for daily updates. I have contacted my local
assembly person and will try to contact the district attorneys office.
I will not let this go easy. What to you think?

Re: Hair line fracture in engine block
 

The latest is that I just got a call from the dealer customer service
rep. He said that there was some gasket issue and that it did not pass
inspection. I asked him to check the notes with regard to engine block
issue. There is nothing in the notes! Are they going to deny
everything now? I did have it checked by an independent tech but it
was not conclusive.
When I pick my car up am I losing my rights to sue? I need a car any
car!

Re: Hair line fracture in engine block
 

"Alex Adler - Brooklyn NY" <aadler@ctvi.com> wrote in message
news:1132691833.732045.217450@g47g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
> The latest is that I just got a call from the dealer customer service
> rep. He said that there was some gasket issue and that it did not pass
> inspection. I asked him to check the notes with regard to engine block
> issue. There is nothing in the notes! Are they going to deny
> everything now? I did have it checked by an independent tech but it
> was not conclusive.
> When I pick my car up am I losing my rights to sue? I need a car any
> car!
>
No, as long as you don't sign a waiver (you don't have to, but they may not
make it sound that way) you retain your legal rights. The limitation period
varies from state to state; in Arizona it is 2 years.

They probably don't have the entire story yet, either. It may take months to
sort it out.

Mike

Re: Hair line fracture in engine block
 

Alex Adler - Brooklyn NY wrote:
> The latest is that I just got a call from the dealer customer service
> rep. He said that there was some gasket issue and that it did not pass
> inspection. I asked him to check the notes with regard to engine block
> issue. There is nothing in the notes! Are they going to deny
> everything now?

it /could be/ a gasket. you have to exhaust that possibility.
launching legal action for a defective casting is pretty damned stupid
if it's just a leaky gasket.

> I did have it checked by an independent tech but it
> was not conclusive.

eh? not conclusive??? i recommended an "independant technical
evaluation". that's not "big joes truck & tow". if you can't find
someone qualified to report on this kind of issue, call aaa's tech
department and have them find someone for you.

> When I pick my car up am I losing my rights to sue? I need a car any
> car!
>
you're calling your congress-critter over this stuff? sounds like
you're more interested in fixing the blame than you are the car. if
that's the case, i think your only solution is legal because no one else
will be interested in talking with you.

Re: Hair line fracture in engine block
 

Of course I cancelled my call to my assembly person till I find out
what happened. I would be delighted to find out that all it was is a
leaky gasket. Of course I will not sue if it only was a leaky gasket,
but was it only a leaky gasket?

I am getting a different story from every one at honda who is involved
with this. First they say the transmission, then the gasket, then the
porus engine block, then the hairline crack then - when I insisited
that they change the engine - "oh we made a mistake. it was the some
leaky gasket." It sounds to me like some unproffessional group. How
can the put the JB weld and then take it off and not know what is up?
Is this a trial and error business? At honda? I would expect they
would do better...

I plan on picking up my car today but I will call aaa to get a good
tech to look at what was done. It is tough to trust the dealer when he
said "i could have just fixed it and not told you. why do you make so
much trouble. if i had sealed it up and fixed it you would have never
known." Would you trust such a guy? Of course I dont want to lose my
rights by picking up the car in case they did lie to me.

Honda is saying that they may give me an extended 7 year warrantee but
I must waive my rights to sue. What do yo think about that?

Re: Hair line fracture in engine block
 

Alex Adler - Brooklyn NY wrote:
> Of course I cancelled my call to my assembly person till I find out
> what happened. I would be delighted to find out that all it was is a
> leaky gasket. Of course I will not sue if it only was a leaky gasket,
> but was it only a leaky gasket?
>
> I am getting a different story from every one at honda who is involved
> with this. First they say the transmission, then the gasket, then the
> porus engine block, then the hairline crack then - when I insisited
> that they change the engine - "oh we made a mistake. it was the some
> leaky gasket." It sounds to me like some unproffessional group. How
> can the put the JB weld and then take it off and not know what is up?
> Is this a trial and error business? At honda? I would expect they
> would do better...

the real test for porosity is the cut the metal up and put it under the
microscope. that's expensive and requires destruction of your engine.
testing for cracks can be done with dye penetrant, but since we're
looking at a situation where it's already oil impregnated, that won't
work. so, now you're looking for someone with experience of both
situations that can monitor leakage over time - and of course
differentiate it from gasket leakage. believe it or not, not everyone
out there knows this stuff, so just "taking it to the dealer" is not
necessarily going to sort it out.

>
> I plan on picking up my car today but I will call aaa to get a good
> tech to look at what was done. It is tough to trust the dealer when he
> said "i could have just fixed it and not told you. why do you make so
> much trouble. if i had sealed it up and fixed it you would have never
> known." Would you trust such a guy? Of course I dont want to lose my
> rights by picking up the car in case they did lie to me.

they're not necessarily lying. they may well have sealed it. the
approved "cure" for porosity is a filler like epoxy, which you're saying
they've done. but due to the nature if the problem and the fact that
you're dealing with porous material, weeping may continue for some time
after it's been fixed. only time will tell if its worked. if you're
getting "attitude" from the dealer, i can't say i'm surprised they way
you're behaving.

>
> Honda is saying that they may give me an extended 7 year warrantee but
> I must waive my rights to sue. What do yo think about that?
>
if they say they've fixed it and are warranteeing the fix for 7 years, i
say that's ok. after all, you can go back 3 [or more] times a week
every week for SEVEN YEARS under that warranty. do you think they'll
not be able to figure out how to make their [your] problem go away? if
you litigate, all that will happen is that they'll litigate back, and in
all statistical likelihood, their corporate attorney will be someone
with /way/ more experience crushing the little guy than your in-law has
of crushing the big guy. after all, do you /want/ to sue in preference
to getting it fixed? it sounds like you do.

Re: Hair line fracture in engine block
 

Alex Adler - Brooklyn NY wrote:

> Honda is saying that they may give me an extended 7 year warrantee but
> I must waive my rights to sue. What do yo think about that?
>

Honestly it sounds like a good deal. Remember that cars are machines
and people are people. Getting all hot under the collar at the first
sign of difficulties generally is not the best response.

John

Re: Hair line fracture in engine block
 

I picked up the car. The ticket has the whole story on it.
I now have a caucious real good feeling about Honda.
I will still check things out and monitor the leak.
If it turns out that it was only a gasket, what a shame i had to go
through all this heart ache.

By the way, Jim Beam, you keep focusing on the porus engine block.
The dealer, who is on site, said it was a hairline fracture.
Honda customer relations said it was a porus engine block.
I am not an expert in this area and just learning. It seems from what
you, Michael Pardee and John Hornder have written, that if it is a
porus engine block, i may just have to count my loses if the industry
standard is to seal it. However, if it was a hairline fracture, it
seems that i have more rights to demand a replacement.

I hope this whole topic is mute for me and I do have a good quality
Honda car like i thought i had. In the meanwhile, I have my car back
and will keep you posted in a week or so to see if it is still leaking.
I am impressed that Honda is trying to make things right. That is not
how i felt when I first started this thread.

Re: Hair line fracture in engine block
 

For the record, here are the notes from the honda service ticket.
================================================
CUSTOMER STATES HAS OIL LEAK
CK FOR LEAKS FOUND OIL LEAKING FROM GALLEY
FOUND SLIGHT HAIR LINE ON BLOCK
USED JB WELD -- STILL LEAKING SPRAYED WHITE POWDER
FOUND LEAK COMING FROM REAR CYLINDER HEADGASKET
REMOVED JB WELD
FOUND ENGINE CH LIGHT ON DASH
PERFORMED TEST CODE P0132 02 SENSOR FAILED
REMOVED AND REPLACED REAR CYLINDER HEADGASKET
REMOVED AND REPLACED 02 SENSOR
ROAD TESTED CAR
OK
RECK FOR LEAKS NONE FOUND
CAR IS GOOD
ONE TIME GOOD WILL
===============================================

I never thought you could remove JB Weld!?! I hope I am done. I am
causiously optimisitc as I hope it was only a rear cylinder headgasket
and not both. In the meanwhile I am monitoring the performance and
watching for oil leaks.