Re: Hybrid cars
 

Michael Pardee wrote:
> "clifto" <clifto@clifto.com> wrote...
>> Those are the people who will be running your nuclear reactors.
>
> Yeah, I've watched the Simpsons too. But in the real world, why managers who
> are responsible for billions of dollars worth of tightly regulated equipment
> would hire stupid people escapes me.

All they can test candidates for is education level, not the ability to
think.

--
If John McCain gets the 2008 Republican Presidential nomination,
my vote for President will be a write-in for Jiang Zemin.

Re: Hybrid cars
 

Ronnie Dobbs wrote:
> Art wrote:
>> "clifto" <clifto@clifto.com> wrote...
>>> Ronnie Dobbs wrote:
>>>> The administration has demonstrated that they are anti-science by
>>>> banning federally-sanctioned stem-cell research,
>>>
>>> You're ing the liberals' lie. Stem cell research is encouraged and
>>> government grants are available to researchers. The only limitation is
>>> that
>>> research on embryonic stem cells outside 60 well-known genetically
>>> diverse stem cell lines cannot be Federally funded; however, the states
>>> can pass laws allowing the states to fund such research, and
>>> researchers are welcome
>>> to seek grants from other sources.
>>>
>>> 16 out of 31 states, none of them governed by Bush, with laws regarding
>>> funding of stem cell research, also prohibit FUNDING of research on
>>> cells taken from aborted fetuses and/or embryos.
>>
>> Unfortunately the federally approved stem cell lines are all
>> contaminated.

Then those who insist on using embryonic/fetal stem cells shall have to
find private funding.

> But you can't let a simple thing like facts get in between Bush's ass cheeks
> and his worshippers' lips.

When the facts fail you, get emotional and use ad hominem attacks.

--
If John McCain gets the 2008 Republican Presidential nomination,
my vote for President will be a write-in for Jiang Zemin.

Re: Hybrid cars
 

On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 00:41:58 -0600, "Rob" <rdbdriver@blomand.net>
wrote:

>
>"Ronnie Dobbs" <watNOSPAMuzi@yahoo.com> wrote in message > But can we trust
>USDA studies? With the anti-science bent of the current
>> administration, and Big Oil's hands in the administration's pockets, there
>> is a real chance the studies are totally bunk.
>>
>
>Why are you ing political hog wash about this administration. This
>administration has done many things to try to lower are demand for foreign
>oil. They offered a 2000 dollar tax credit for people that buy Hybrids cars,

And he gave $100,000 tax deductions to small businesses like real
estate agents who buy Hummers.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0121-05.htm

The deduction was later repealed. And the hybrid deduction goes away
as well after a certain model sells more than a specified number of
units.

Re: Electricity - was Re: Hybrid cars
 

Water storage for intermittent power genertion.

In Virginia, nuclear porwer is used to pump water into Lake Anna. This
level loads the nuclear plant. Nuclear and coal plants are easier to
operate when the load doesn't change very much. When the demand peaks,
water is released and the pumps act as generators. Hydro adapts more
easily to load changes. Just modulate the water valve. Almost
instantaneous when compared to a steam cycle. the voltage sag is less
on hydro than any other generation. Recovery time is also shorter.

In California, the dams all produce peaking power. Most California dams
have a forebay in addition to the main reservoir. Nuclear power is run
level load and the dams provide peaking power. The forebay, or
sometimes after bay is used to level out water flow for ecology. On
cool days, or at night the nuclear plants still run at the same output,
but the load that was shed by the cities is diverted to pumping water.

Operation of the California Aqueduct requires manipulation of water
release to produce electrical generation as well as water release.
Eventually, the electricity is used to pump the water over the
Tehachapi mountains.

New York City is promoting load management by users to avoid building
new generating plants.

What does this have to do with hybrid cars?

Re: Hybrid cars
 

aniramca@yahoo.com wrote:
> With the rising gas prices, we hear more and more about this type of
> car today. However, I am still not very sure about the reception of
> this type of car. My friend owned a Honda Insight, and he has been
> driving it for over 5 years now. He never complained and he said that
> everything run perfectly so far. However, when I asked whether it is
> worth the money, he thinks that from the economical stands point, his
> car ended up more costly for him.

well.. it's not really about cheap or even better gas mileage to a
certain
extent for many folks.

It's about cleaner exhaust emissions - mainly in city-type driving AND
at least in the No Va area - getting on the HOV lanes.

For those folks.. it's about TIME saved by using HOV and the extra
cost is a no-brainer.... AND they get to claim "green" credentials
even though their motivations are purely selfish....

re: energy - ALL energy has extraction costs. You can't extract even
green energy like wind and solar without the captial costs for the
infrastructure. And, all energy also has operational costs to convert
it from
it's native form into something that can be... used.

Each kind of energy has different costs. Just because they all have to
be extracted and converted does NOT mean the costs for doing so
are the same.

I doubt very seriously that corn can be grown and harvested to,
in effect, produce more energy than it took to create it - which
then can be sold.... something about this concept seems suspect.

What would be useful would be a chart showing where the energy came
from - and what it cost to generate it.

Finally - I didn't hear anyone mention tides - which are predictable
and
continuous on a 24hr basis. Hydro power derived from tides certainly
ought to be recognized at least as one of the options.

Re: Hybrid cars
 

John Mara wrote:
> Don Stauffer wrote:
>
>> We have to make sure we don't solve on serious problem by worsening
>> another. I am concerned that biofuels, ESPECIALLY alcohol, is far
>> worse for global warming than gasoline. There has to be a better
>> solution. I am all for alternate fuels, but we need to look at the
>> greenhouse emissions of using, and more importantly, producing them.
>
>
> The carbon dioxide released by burning alcohol came from the air by way
> of photosynthesis and is being released back into the air where it will
> again be converted into carbohydrates by photosynthesis.
>
> The problem with fossil fuel is that the carbon dioxide released was
> taken from the air by photosynthesis millions of years ago and is now
> being released.
>
> John Mara

But it isn't just the burning of alcohol that generates CO2. The
fermentation of grain alcohol liberates lots of it too. I can see where
the burning and photosynthesis could balance out. But what about the
emissions from the fermentation.

Re: Electricity - was Re: Hybrid cars
 

Michael Pardee wrote:
>
> Sadly, wind and solar fall into the category of the least desirable of all
> forms of generation, "intermittent generation." Utility electricity as we
> know it is entirely on-demand; we don't have to schedule when we turn lights
> on and off. In contrast, public grids are a remarkably delicate real-time
> balance of generation, loss and load. Some "peaking" generation must always
> be held in reserve to maintain the balance, while "base" generation like
> coal, nuclear and hydro provide the cheaper electricity to meet the expected
> minimum demand. As used today, solar and wind do not fit into this at all.
> If base generation is like public transportation and peaking generation is
> like private cars, intermittent generation is like hitchhiking. Maybe it
> will get you where you are going, but you can't count on it. Worse, factors
> that affect one wind or solar site will likely affect all the neighboring
> sites in the same way at about the same time.

But there ARE ways to store electricity or even to store the energy in
some other form and reconvert it to electricity later. One simple
scheme is to use turbines to pump water up a hill to a reservoir, let it
flow down through the turbines to generate electricity when you need it.

You can hydrolize water with it, burn the hydrogen when you need it.

You can compress gases with it.

Lots of ways to store the energy.

Re: Hybrid cars
 

Steve W. wrote:
>
> NEVER going to happen. Ask the folks in Mass what happened when they
> wanted to install windpower out in the bay. Teddy Kennedy and his
> friends stood up and shouted NO. Same thing happens all over the
> country. Falls into the NIMBA category. I live less than 25 miles from a
> wind farm now and there are folks who bitch about it every day. The best
> ones are folks who are moving into the area and start complaining about
> it. There is also a planned farm just about 2 miles away that I am in
> support of, BUT again there are a bunch who are totally against it. Some
> of those don't even live in the area or own land here. BUT they get a
> LOT of press.
>
> Much better long term is MODERN design nuke power. Yes I said NUKE. No
> emissions and very safe and stable regardless of the HYPE the anti nuke
> folks cry. Oh and before folks bring them up - Chernobyl CANNOT happen
> with modern designs, and only happened there because of the poor design
> of the plant and even after all is said and done there were still fewer
> deaths than on 9/11. And Three Mile island? NO deaths, NO radiation
> leak, and in reality no real danger.
>
>

Drive through northern Iowa or southwestern Minnesota. Farm land is
being used for very large wind turbine farms, and the land can continue
to be farmed. We are generating large amounts of wind power out here.

Now, I don't have any quarrel with nuclear power- I think it is a good
answer, but there ARE regions of the country where people are okay with
wind power. In those regions that are not, when they find themselves
paying far more for energy than regions that use wind power, their
attitudes may change.

Re: Hybrid cars
 

y_p_w wrote:
> There are many ways to make a hybrid powerplant. However - the
> main effect on highway efficiency is the use of a tiny engine that's
> inherently fuel efficient. If these dinky 1.3-1.5L engines were used
> without a supplementary electric motor, they would still get
> exceptional highway fuel economy. They would also take nearly
> forever to get up to speed, which is where the electric motor
> comes in.
>
> The electrical motor simply provides acceptable acceleration. An
> ICE is also going to be less efficient and not as powerful at low
> revs. At low revs, the electric motor is probably generating more
> power than the ICE. Regenerative braking recycles what normally
> would be turned into heat back into the battery.
>


Yep. We could look at two kinds of horsepower requirement for a car-
average hp required, and peak hp required. A proper hybrid should size
the IC engine to the AVERAGE hp required, and the electric motor for the
difference between peak required and average required.

Re: Hybrid cars HOV Lanes
 

"Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in news:dJOdnT0j--
5__1HeRVn-tw@sedona.net:

> "Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in message
> news:Xns974DD5BEAC04Fjyanikkuanet@129.250.170.86.. .
>>
>> I guess all they need to work on is the styling! 8-)
>> It sure doesn't compare to a Lotus or Z.
>>
>> (IMO,Prius is dog-ugly)
>>
> I drive with my eyes closed to deal with that part. <8^P
>
> Mike
>
>
>

Have you read that article about bettering the Prius fuel economy by adding
an additional battery pack,and IIRC,allowing for recharge from home
electric power? It was in the news 4-5 months ago.


--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: Electricity - was Re: Hybrid cars
 

Raymond J. Henry <rayhenryREMOVE@THISautoclubs.ca> wrote in
news:3qoos1132lpvkpuif2sv57skmloeujtr99@4ax.com:

> "Ted Mittelstaedt" <tedm@toybox.placo.com> wrote in message
> news:newscache$gfl6ti$h5w1$1@news.ipinc.net...
>> But you can put in enough wind farms to supply the US's electrical
>> needs.
>>
>
> Has anyone attempted to determine the results of windmill farms?
> Science tells us that to create energy from the wind, we take that
> power out of the wind. If we intercept this force enough, what changes
> are we imposing on nature?

Wind is merely one of nature's way of equalizing the variations in solar
thermal input across land and sea.(Hurricanes are another!)
I seriously doubt we humans could interfere enough with winds to cause
climatic changes.

>
> Not saying we *shouldn't*, but we've already gone way down the
> destructive road with other sources, maybe we need to do some research
> before figuring that wind-generated power is "free"....
>


The environmentals are now against windfarms;they kill too many birds.

Sen.Ted Kennedy (an environmentalist-supporter)is against them now,seeing
as they want to put one off-shore from his Hyannisport compound.(FAR,far
off-shore!) B-)

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: Electricity - was Re: Hybrid cars
 

"Dick Boyd" <dickboyd@aol.com> wrote in
news:1137488043.552213.124190@z14g2000cwz.googlegr oups.com:

> Water storage for intermittent power genertion.
>
> In Virginia, nuclear porwer is used to pump water into Lake Anna. This
> level loads the nuclear plant. Nuclear and coal plants are easier to
> operate when the load doesn't change very much. When the demand peaks,
> water is released and the pumps act as generators. Hydro adapts more
> easily to load changes. Just modulate the water valve. Almost
> instantaneous when compared to a steam cycle. the voltage sag is less
> on hydro than any other generation. Recovery time is also shorter.
>
> In California, the dams all produce peaking power. Most California dams
> have a forebay in addition to the main reservoir. Nuclear power is run
> level load and the dams provide peaking power. The forebay, or
> sometimes after bay is used to level out water flow for ecology. On
> cool days, or at night the nuclear plants still run at the same output,
> but the load that was shed by the cities is diverted to pumping water.

Environmentalists are against dams;they harm fisheries.
Dams BAD,BAD,BAD ;-)
<humor attempt>


>
> Operation of the California Aqueduct requires manipulation of water
> release to produce electrical generation as well as water release.
> Eventually, the electricity is used to pump the water over the
> Tehachapi mountains.
>
> New York City is promoting load management by users to avoid building
> new generating plants.
>
> What does this have to do with hybrid cars?

Hybrids run on fossil fuels,and we're trying to reduce usage of fossil
fuels,for enviro and political reasons.Electric power is the alternative.


--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: Electricity - was Re: Hybrid cars
 

Don Stauffer <stauffer@usfamily.net> wrote in
news:dc7zf.1691$cc6.844@news.uswest.net:

> Michael Pardee wrote:
>>
>> Sadly, wind and solar fall into the category of the least desirable
>> of all forms of generation, "intermittent generation." Utility
>> electricity as we know it is entirely on-demand; we don't have to
>> schedule when we turn lights on and off. In contrast, public grids
>> are a remarkably delicate real-time balance of generation, loss and
>> load. Some "peaking" generation must always be held in reserve to
>> maintain the balance, while "base" generation like coal, nuclear and
>> hydro provide the cheaper electricity to meet the expected minimum
>> demand. As used today, solar and wind do not fit into this at all.
>> If base generation is like public transportation and peaking
>> generation is like private cars, intermittent generation is like
>> hitchhiking. Maybe it will get you where you are going, but you can't
>> count on it. Worse, factors that affect one wind or solar site will
>> likely affect all the neighboring sites in the same way at about the
>> same time.
>
> But there ARE ways to store electricity or even to store the energy in
> some other form and reconvert it to electricity later. One simple
> scheme is to use turbines to pump water up a hill to a reservoir, let
> it flow down through the turbines to generate electricity when you
> need it.

IF you have the water(or can spare it),and if you have a reservoir.(or a
place to build one)
Also water evaporates,or freezes(bummer,that one).

>
> You can hydrolize water with it, burn the hydrogen when you need it.
>
> You can compress gases with it.
>
> Lots of ways to store the energy.
>

Lots of very inefficient ways.

Then there's nuclear;clean,efficient,safe,and ready when you are.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: Hybrid cars
 

Don Stauffer <stauffer@usfamily.net> wrote in
news:Uf7zf.6$XW4.383@news.uswest.net:

> Steve W. wrote:
>>
>> NEVER going to happen. Ask the folks in Mass what happened when they
>> wanted to install windpower out in the bay. Teddy Kennedy and his
>> friends stood up and shouted NO. Same thing happens all over the
>> country. Falls into the NIMBA category. I live less than 25 miles from a
>> wind farm now and there are folks who bitch about it every day. The best
>> ones are folks who are moving into the area and start complaining about
>> it. There is also a planned farm just about 2 miles away that I am in
>> support of, BUT again there are a bunch who are totally against it. Some
>> of those don't even live in the area or own land here. BUT they get a
>> LOT of press.
>>
>> Much better long term is MODERN design nuke power. Yes I said NUKE. No
>> emissions and very safe and stable regardless of the HYPE the anti nuke
>> folks cry. Oh and before folks bring them up - Chernobyl CANNOT happen
>> with modern designs, and only happened there because of the poor design
>> of the plant and even after all is said and done there were still fewer
>> deaths than on 9/11. And Three Mile island? NO deaths, NO radiation
>> leak, and in reality no real danger.
>>
>>
>
> Drive through northern Iowa or southwestern Minnesota. Farm land is
> being used for very large wind turbine farms, and the land can continue
> to be farmed. We are generating large amounts of wind power out here.
>
> Now, I don't have any quarrel with nuclear power- I think it is a good
> answer, but there ARE regions of the country where people are okay with
> wind power. In those regions that are not, when they find themselves
> paying far more for energy than regions that use wind power, their
> attitudes may change.
>

Environmentalists are now against windpower;it kills birds.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: Hybrid cars
 

y_p_w wrote:
> Don Stauffer wrote:
>
>>aniramca@yahoo.com wrote:
>>
>>snip
>>
>>>Today, I only see almost none of the Honda Insight (except his). I saw
>>>just a number of Toyota Prius.I have never since a Ford Escape Hybrid,
>>>although they bragged about it since last fall. Does Escape Hybrid
>>>actually reach the consumer market? Strangely, I did see a Lexus RX
>>>400h in our rather small city the other day. I read in the news that
>>>Honda Civic and Accord have now a hybrid version. The new Toyota Camry
>>>hybrid is coming up. GM and Ford promise for hybrid cars (never see on
>>>the street yet).
>>>The bottom line, do people really care to get a higher price hybrid
>>>cars? Does their reception only reflect the "environmentally
>>>conscience" approach nowadays, or do people really want to buy a
>>>hybrid?
>>
>>Not all hybrids are created equal. Toyota did it VERY well in the
>>Prius. Some of the others are hybrid in name only, having very little
>>effect on milage. I think that is why you see so many Priuses.
>
>
> I believe the Accord Hybrid is one with a smaller effect on fuel
> economy by an increase in performance. However - the Accord
> Hybrid doesn't qualify for the California HOV lane exception.
>
> There are many ways to make a hybrid powerplant. However - the
> main effect on highway efficiency is the use of a tiny engine that's
> inherently fuel efficient. If these dinky 1.3-1.5L engines were used
> without a supplementary electric motor, they would still get
> exceptional highway fuel economy. They would also take nearly
> forever to get up to speed, which is where the electric motor
> comes in.
>

You sure about that? Often motors have a most efficient RPM level.
They are not equally as efficient across all RPMs. With an electric
motor you can run your gas motor closer to its most efficient speed.

Depends on the design I suppose.


> The electrical motor simply provides acceptable acceleration. An
> ICE is also going to be less efficient and not as powerful at low
> revs. At low revs, the electric motor is probably generating more
> power than the ICE. Regenerative braking recycles what normally
> would be turned into heat back into the battery.
>


--
Thank you,


CL Gilbert
"Then said I, Wisdom [is] better than strength: nevertheless the poor
man's wisdom [is] despised, and his words are not heard." Ecclesiastes 9:16