Ignition cut-out
 

This evening (yes - Christmas eve) my daughter's '93 Accord LX (225K miles)
suffered a short bout of engine failure. She described it as surging a
couple times when she tried to accelerate, then the engine died when she
braked. I quizzed her about the tach and she was clear it was jumping rather
than swinging with the engine. It didn't start right away, but would sputter
occasionally and eventually lit off as though flooded (which it probably was
by then).

The Main Relay and ignitor are each about a year old (but both are NAPA
aftermarket, since the car insists on breaking down on Sundays and
holidays). The timing belt is 4 years, 60K miles old. My son and I replaced
the radiator about 2 weeks ago, so I am wondering if we stirred up evil
spirits in the process of that. He bled the system carefully, but a leak in
the lower radiator hose attachment may have let air in. I haven't done a
visual inspection yet, but will in the morning.

What comes to mind? Ignition switch? Some particular underhood wiring?
Distributor? Something I'm forgetting? She is committed to driving to San
Diego in a week or so and I'd sure like to sort this out by then.

TIA

Mike

Re: Ignition cut-out
 

How old's the ignition coil?

I'd try to do a check of it early on. Dying when
braking--then being able to restart it after a cooldown
period, at least until the coil fails completely--is a
symptom.

I know you have a lot of experience with Hondas. This is
just where I'd start, based on the car's age and symptoms.

"Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote
> This evening (yes - Christmas eve) my daughter's '93
Accord LX (225K miles)
> suffered a short bout of engine failure. She described it
as surging a
> couple times when she tried to accelerate, then the engine
died when she
> braked. I quizzed her about the tach and she was clear it
was jumping rather
> than swinging with the engine. It didn't start right away,
but would sputter
> occasionally and eventually lit off as though flooded
(which it probably was
> by then).
>
> The Main Relay and ignitor are each about a year old (but
both are NAPA
> aftermarket, since the car insists on breaking down on
Sundays and
> holidays). The timing belt is 4 years, 60K miles old. My
son and I replaced
> the radiator about 2 weeks ago, so I am wondering if we
stirred up evil
> spirits in the process of that. He bled the system
carefully, but a leak in
> the lower radiator hose attachment may have let air in. I
haven't done a
> visual inspection yet, but will in the morning.
>
> What comes to mind? Ignition switch? Some particular
underhood wiring?
> Distributor? Something I'm forgetting? She is committed to
driving to San
> Diego in a week or so and I'd sure like to sort this out
by then.
>
> TIA
>
> Mike
>
>

Re: Ignition cut-out
 

"Elle" <honda.lioness@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:J8qrf.9529$3Z.8773@newsread1.news.atl.earthli nk.net...
> How old's the ignition coil?
>
> I'd try to do a check of it early on. Dying when
> braking--then being able to restart it after a cooldown
> period, at least until the coil fails completely--is a
> symptom.
>
> I know you have a lot of experience with Hondas. This is
> just where I'd start, based on the car's age and symptoms.
>
I'd forgotten about that! The coil is the original. I might be wise to
shotgun it out, whether or not I find something else wrong. I should even
have time to get an OEM part before she leaves. At least that is something I
don't have to worry about disturbing unnecessarily - I hate doing invasive
work so soon before a big trip. Thanks, Elle!

Mike

Re: Ignition cut-out
 

Michael Pardee wrote:
> This evening (yes - Christmas eve) my daughter's '93 Accord LX (225K miles)
> suffered a short bout of engine failure. She described it as surging a
> couple times when she tried to accelerate, then the engine died when she
> braked. I quizzed her about the tach and she was clear it was jumping rather
> than swinging with the engine. It didn't start right away, but would sputter
> occasionally and eventually lit off as though flooded (which it probably was
> by then).
>
> The Main Relay and ignitor are each about a year old (but both are NAPA
> aftermarket, since the car insists on breaking down on Sundays and
> holidays). The timing belt is 4 years, 60K miles old. My son and I replaced
> the radiator about 2 weeks ago, so I am wondering if we stirred up evil
> spirits in the process of that. He bled the system carefully, but a leak in
> the lower radiator hose attachment may have let air in. I haven't done a
> visual inspection yet, but will in the morning.
>
> What comes to mind? Ignition switch? Some particular underhood wiring?
> Distributor? Something I'm forgetting? She is committed to driving to San
> Diego in a week or so and I'd sure like to sort this out by then.
>

I wonder if the problem is electrical in nature, because the RPMs were
jumping around wildly.

Since the tach and engine timing both get their signal from the crank
sensor, I'd also look in that area.

Remco

Re: Ignition cut-out
 

Remco wrote:

> I wonder if the problem is electrical in nature, because the RPMs were
> jumping around wildly.
>
> Since the tach and engine timing both get their signal from the crank
> sensor, I'd also look in that area.

I thought I read on here recently that an erratic tach that precedes a
cut-out is a sign of a bad igniter.

Re: Ignition cut-out
 

High Tech Misfit wrote:
> Remco wrote:
>
> > I wonder if the problem is electrical in nature, because the RPMs were
> > jumping around wildly.
> >
> > Since the tach and engine timing both get their signal from the crank
> > sensor, I'd also look in that area.
>
> I thought I read on here recently that an erratic tach that precedes a
> cut-out is a sign of a bad igniter.

Not sure about any previous post on this issue, but the ignitor seems
to just be a larger power transistor (probably a darlington, but that's
besides a point).

The way this transistor is configured, it simply acts as a switch that
that closes/opens a contact when its input changes states (to simplify
it all, imagine a relay with a coil and contact - that is not quite
what a transistor is, but behaves quite similarly the way an ignitor is
hooked up).
When a level is applied to its input, it switches the primary side (the
12V side, basically) of the coil to ground and does this at a very high
rate of speed. The secondary of the coil is what generates a high
voltage spark.
The output of the ignitor does not seem to attach to anything else so
iti it breaks you won't have spark.

I don't think the tach is getting its signal from the ignitor, so don't
see how one can tell by the tach that the ignitor is bad. If you
somehow can detect this on the tach, it must be some sort of weird
artifact.

Remco

Re: Ignition cut-out
 

"Remco" <whybcuz@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1135557540.299326.204340@g43g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
> High Tech Misfit wrote:
>> Remco wrote:
>>
>> > I wonder if the problem is electrical in nature, because the RPMs were
>> > jumping around wildly.
>> >
>> > Since the tach and engine timing both get their signal from the crank
>> > sensor, I'd also look in that area.
>>
>> I thought I read on here recently that an erratic tach that precedes a
>> cut-out is a sign of a bad igniter.
>
> Not sure about any previous post on this issue, but the ignitor seems
> to just be a larger power transistor (probably a darlington, but that's
> besides a point).
>
> The way this transistor is configured, it simply acts as a switch that
> that closes/opens a contact when its input changes states (to simplify
> it all, imagine a relay with a coil and contact - that is not quite
> what a transistor is, but behaves quite similarly the way an ignitor is
> hooked up).
> When a level is applied to its input, it switches the primary side (the
> 12V side, basically) of the coil to ground and does this at a very high
> rate of speed. The secondary of the coil is what generates a high
> voltage spark.
> The output of the ignitor does not seem to attach to anything else so
> iti it breaks you won't have spark.
>
> I don't think the tach is getting its signal from the ignitor, so don't
> see how one can tell by the tach that the ignitor is bad. If you
> somehow can detect this on the tach, it must be some sort of weird
> artifact.
>
> Remco
>
Actually, I believe the tach does get its signal from a separate lead on the
igniter. The current symptoms do sound like igniter trouble, but the igniter
(and tune-up parts) are a little less than a year old... from March, IIRC. I
might be wise to re-heatsink the igniter, though.

What makes me think it isn't distributor sensor trouble is that there is no
"check engine" light, suggesting the problem is past the ECU... i.e. igniter
or coil, or high tension side (like the rotor or cap.)

Mike

Re: Ignition cut-out
 

"Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote
> Actually, I believe the tach does get its signal from a
separate lead on the
> igniter.

The electrical diagram for the ignition system suggests you
are remembering correctly. See the top schematic at
http://home.earthlink.net/~honda.lioness/id5.html . Tegger's
version appears to confirm it:
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html


> The current symptoms do sound like igniter trouble, but
the igniter
> (and tune-up parts) are a little less than a year old...
from March, IIRC. I
> might be wise to re-heatsink the igniter, though.
>
> What makes me think it isn't distributor sensor trouble is
that there is no
> "check engine" light, suggesting the problem is past the
ECU... i.e. igniter
> or coil, or high tension side (like the rotor or cap.)

Plus ISTM igniters don't exactly seem to die slowly, at
least not the way coils often do. Igniters seem more like an
all-or-nothing deal, with symptoms only for the very
observant, at best.

Re: Ignition cut-out
 

"Elle" <honda.lioness@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:gQLrf.10315$nm.920@newsread2.news.atl.earthli nk.net...
> "Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote
>> Actually, I believe the tach does get its signal from a
> separate lead on the
>> igniter.
>
> The electrical diagram for the ignition system suggests you
> are remembering correctly. See the top schematic at
> http://home.earthlink.net/~honda.lioness/id5.html . Tegger's
> version appears to confirm it:
> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html
>
>
>> The current symptoms do sound like igniter trouble, but
> the igniter
>> (and tune-up parts) are a little less than a year old...
> from March, IIRC. I
>> might be wise to re-heatsink the igniter, though.
>>
>> What makes me think it isn't distributor sensor trouble is
> that there is no
>> "check engine" light, suggesting the problem is past the
> ECU... i.e. igniter
>> or coil, or high tension side (like the rotor or cap.)
>
> Plus ISTM igniters don't exactly seem to die slowly, at
> least not the way coils often do. Igniters seem more like an
> all-or-nothing deal, with symptoms only for the very
> observant, at best.
>
>
I have a Bosch coil ordered through alleurasianautoparts.com, should be here
by Wednesday. Since there really is no way to determine whether the coil is
failing intermittently and 225K miles is a lot of service to expect from
one, it seemed like the prudent thing to do. I can check the ignition switch
by seeing if the voltage across it fluctuates from one time to the next, but
the coil keeps its secrets.

In my experience, the more power a device handles the more likely it is to
have a limited life. An ignition coil has to transform hefty currents into
hefty high voltage jolts, so I don't expect it to last forever. Thanks again
for the suggestion.

Mike

Re: Ignition cut-out
 

Elle wrote:
> "Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote
> > Actually, I believe the tach does get its signal from a
> separate lead on the
> > igniter.
>
> The electrical diagram for the ignition system suggests you
> are remembering correctly. See the top schematic at
> http://home.earthlink.net/~honda.lioness/id5.html . Tegger's
> version appears to confirm it:
> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html
>

You're absolutely right - I stand corrected and didn't mean to mislead
anyone.
It has been a while since I looked at the ignitor and didn't have my
manual handy, but that's a bad defense <blushing>

This is why we need those pros, huh :)

Remco

Re: Ignition cut-out
 

Michael Pardee wrote:
> "Elle" <honda.lioness@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:gQLrf.10315$nm.920@newsread2.news.atl.earthli nk.net...
> > "Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote
> >> Actually, I believe the tach does get its signal from a
> > separate lead on the
> >> igniter.
> >
> > The electrical diagram for the ignition system suggests you
> > are remembering correctly. See the top schematic at
> > http://home.earthlink.net/~honda.lioness/id5.html . Tegger's
> > version appears to confirm it:
> > http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html
> >
> >
> >> The current symptoms do sound like igniter trouble, but
> > the igniter
> >> (and tune-up parts) are a little less than a year old...
> > from March, IIRC. I
> >> might be wise to re-heatsink the igniter, though.
> >>
> >> What makes me think it isn't distributor sensor trouble is
> > that there is no
> >> "check engine" light, suggesting the problem is past the
> > ECU... i.e. igniter
> >> or coil, or high tension side (like the rotor or cap.)
> >
> > Plus ISTM igniters don't exactly seem to die slowly, at
> > least not the way coils often do. Igniters seem more like an
> > all-or-nothing deal, with symptoms only for the very
> > observant, at best.
> >
> >
> I have a Bosch coil ordered through alleurasianautoparts.com, should be here
> by Wednesday. Since there really is no way to determine whether the coil is
> failing intermittently and 225K miles is a lot of service to expect from
> one, it seemed like the prudent thing to do. I can check the ignition switch
> by seeing if the voltage across it fluctuates from one time to the next, but
> the coil keeps its secrets.
>
> In my experience, the more power a device handles the more likely it is to
> have a limited life. An ignition coil has to transform hefty currents into
> hefty high voltage jolts, so I don't expect it to last forever. Thanks again
> for the suggestion.
>
> Mike

I'm with Elle on the ignitor's failure mode. One would imagine that
these things just fail very quickly (unless it is thermal in nature,
oif course)

Could it be that the power to the ignitor is intermittent - A bad
contact in that path somewhere?
Imagine a bad intermittent contact on the 12V (or ground) to the
ignitor while the car is running. It would certainly translate into bad
spark (too narrow) and getting noise on the tach lead..

Remco

Re: Ignition cut-out
 

"Remco" <whybcuz@yahoo.com> wrote
> I stand corrected and didn't mean to mislead
> anyone.
> It has been a while since I looked at the ignitor and
didn't have my
> manual handy, but that's a bad defense <blushing>

I've looked at the schematic I cited and Tegger's igniter
site closely at least half a dozen times each this past
year, and I forgot about the tach output until Michael P.
mentioned and I re-checked. That the Tach signal comes from
the igniter doesn't exactly pass the common sense test. At
least not at first blush, afaic.

I trust you see Tegger's site confirms the rest of your
conjecture, about the igniter being mostly a Darlington pair
transistor, yada.

> This is why we need those pros, huh :)

Yes, plus repair manual hounds. :-)

Re: Ignition cut-out
 

Elle wrote:
> "Remco" <whybcuz@yahoo.com> wrote
> > I stand corrected and didn't mean to mislead
> > anyone.
> > It has been a while since I looked at the ignitor and
> didn't have my
> > manual handy, but that's a bad defense <blushing>
>
> I've looked at the schematic I cited and Tegger's igniter
> site closely at least half a dozen times each this past
> year, and I forgot about the tach output until Michael P.
> mentioned and I re-checked. That the Tach signal comes from
> the igniter doesn't exactly pass the common sense test. At
> least not at first blush, afaic.
>

Aw, shuks - now you're just trying to make me feel better :)

Yeah, that is kinda weird how they have the tach input coming from the
ignitor. One would imagine they could have just as easily taken the
signal going to the ignitor (possibly current boost it a little) and
feed it into the tach directly. Less wire and things that can go wrong,
imo...

Maybe they did that as a trouble shooting measure or we can use at as
such: This morning I cranked my wife's integra and noticed that while
cranking the tach moves very slightly. Maybe if a honda cranks and the
tach does not move it is an indication that the ignitor is bad..? That
would be an interesting thought.

Wonder how Michael is making out with this thing.

Remco

Re: Ignition cut-out
 

"Remco" <whybcuz@yahoo.com> wrote
> Elle wrote:
> > "Remco" <whybcuz@yahoo.com> wrote
> > > I stand corrected and didn't mean to mislead
> > > anyone.
> > > It has been a while since I looked at the ignitor and
> > didn't have my
> > > manual handy, but that's a bad defense <blushing>
> >
> > I've looked at the schematic I cited and Tegger's
igniter
> > site closely at least half a dozen times each this past
> > year, and I forgot about the tach output until Michael
P.
> > mentioned and I re-checked. That the Tach signal comes
from
> > the igniter doesn't exactly pass the common sense test.
At
> > least not at first blush, afaic.
> >
>
> Aw, shuks - now you're just trying to make me feel better
:)

You and anyone else who posts or lurks here. This was not an
easy catch, IMO. But as importantly, a group like this will
thrive only with open-mindedness and polite honesty. (Not
that I excel at these, but I know I'm supposed to try... :-)

> Yeah, that is kinda weird how they have the tach input
coming from the
> ignitor. One would imagine they could have just as easily
taken the
> signal going to the ignitor (possibly current boost it a
little) and
> feed it into the tach directly.

I thought maybe this might be happening anyway. The igniter
gets input from the ECU, of course, after all.

On further thought, the RPM signal really had to be
someplace in the vicinity of the camshaft or crankshaft. And
someplace protected, like the distributor housing. I am
thinking many other cars have their tach input coming from
somewhere within the distributor as well.

> Less wire and things that can go wrong,
> imo...
>
> Maybe they did that as a trouble shooting measure or we
can use at as
> such: This morning I cranked my wife's integra and noticed
that while
> cranking the tach moves very slightly. Maybe if a honda
cranks and the
> tach does not move it is an indication that the ignitor is
bad..?

Tegger's site certainly puts emphasis on this notion. See
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/badigniter.
html

I see on further examination that Tegger's drawing (at
another of his sites on the igniter) has the Tach signal
coming out of the igniter's control chip, for one thing.

> That
> would be an interesting thought.
>
> Wonder how Michael is making out with this thing.

<Whispering: Why's one of our regulars buying a non-OEM
coil?>

Re: Ignition cut-out
 

Elle wrote:
>
> <Whispering: Why's one of our regulars buying a non-OEM
> coil?>

Lol -- yeah, I was kinda wondering the same thing. That aforementioned
mentioned politeness thing had me keeping it to myself.
Sorry for getting on your case, Michael. :)