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Installing Control Arm Bushings: Tips?
Anyone have any special tips for this?
I am struggling mightily with this for my front lower driver's side control arm on my 91 Civic LX, 176k miles. I heated the whole arm in the oven for about half an hour at 150 degrees F. I applied soap and then PB Blaster. I did not clean the control arm bushing holes hardly at all, though. I have to get some emery cloth. Out of stupidity, while trying to install the new bushings, I already somewhat mushroomed the bolt holes but I think I recovered from that. I got the large one in but then, while recovering from the mushrooming, it slipped out again. I got the arm off easily this morning (all except the radius rod bolts had been previously freed). I had problems all day getting the outer sleeve of the bushings free. I cut out the inner sleeve and rubber pretty easily, per my earlier thread on this. But the outer sleeves seemed much tighter compared to my practice control arm of a few weeks ago. Exhausting... I see cautions in various auto newsgroup archives about banging too much on the control arms. I am prepared to buy one second hand from a junkyard, if need be. Also, it has been so laborious today that I may very well take the passenger side's control arm to my local Napa, which does have bushing press service. At this point I am thinking that, certainly for older cars, replacing the bushings one's self is a huge roll of the dice without industrial equipment. My experiment is largely a failure. |
Re: Installing Control Arm Bushings: Tips?
"Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:4OQbg.118$Yu1.51@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink .net... > Anyone have any special tips for this? > > I am struggling mightily with this for my front lower driver's side > control arm on my 91 Civic LX, 176k miles. > > I heated the whole arm in the oven for about half an hour at 150 degrees > F. I applied soap and then PB Blaster. I did not clean the control arm > bushing holes hardly at all, though. I have to get some emery cloth. > > Out of stupidity, while trying to install the new bushings, I already > somewhat mushroomed the bolt holes but I think I recovered from that. I > got the large one in but then, while recovering from the mushrooming, it > slipped out again. > > I got the arm off easily this morning (all except the radius rod bolts had > been previously freed). I had problems all day getting the outer sleeve of > the bushings free. I cut out the inner sleeve and rubber pretty easily, > per my earlier thread on this. But the outer sleeves seemed much tighter > compared to my practice control arm of a few weeks ago. Exhausting... > > I see cautions in various auto newsgroup archives about banging too much > on the control arms. I am prepared to buy one second hand from a junkyard, > if need be. Also, it has been so laborious today that I may very well take > the passenger side's control arm to my local Napa, which does have bushing > press service. > > At this point I am thinking that, certainly for older cars, replacing the > bushings one's self is a huge roll of the dice without industrial > equipment. My experiment is largely a failure. > Not a failure; an experience! I'm going to throw out this suggestion for comment, because it could produce results ranging from resounding success to being stuck. How about temperature-fitting the bushings; either freezing the bushings or heating the control arm? The upside is that the parts should fit together with no more than a solid blow or two from a mallet, while the downside is that if they go partway you are probably no better off than you are now - maybe worse - and don't get a second chance. I've never done it myself but I assume the temperature difference fades quickly once the pieces are in contact. Does anybody know why bushings are fit so tightly? Bearings typically aren't that tight. Mike |
Re: Installing Control Arm Bushings: Tips?
"Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:4OQbg.118$Yu1.51@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink .net... > Anyone have any special tips for this? > > I am struggling mightily with this for my front lower driver's side > control arm on my 91 Civic LX, 176k miles. > > I heated the whole arm in the oven for about half an hour at 150 degrees > F. I applied soap and then PB Blaster. I did not clean the control arm > bushing holes hardly at all, though. I have to get some emery cloth. > > Out of stupidity, while trying to install the new bushings, I already > somewhat mushroomed the bolt holes but I think I recovered from that. I > got the large one in but then, while recovering from the mushrooming, it > slipped out again. > > I got the arm off easily this morning (all except the radius rod bolts had > been previously freed). I had problems all day getting the outer sleeve of > the bushings free. I cut out the inner sleeve and rubber pretty easily, > per my earlier thread on this. But the outer sleeves seemed much tighter > compared to my practice control arm of a few weeks ago. Exhausting... > > I see cautions in various auto newsgroup archives about banging too much > on the control arms. I am prepared to buy one second hand from a junkyard, > if need be. Also, it has been so laborious today that I may very well take > the passenger side's control arm to my local Napa, which does have bushing > press service. > > At this point I am thinking that, certainly for older cars, replacing the > bushings one's self is a huge roll of the dice without industrial > equipment. My experiment is largely a failure. > Not a failure; an experience! I'm going to throw out this suggestion for comment, because it could produce results ranging from resounding success to being stuck. How about temperature-fitting the bushings; either freezing the bushings or heating the control arm? The upside is that the parts should fit together with no more than a solid blow or two from a mallet, while the downside is that if they go partway you are probably no better off than you are now - maybe worse - and don't get a second chance. I've never done it myself but I assume the temperature difference fades quickly once the pieces are in contact. Does anybody know why bushings are fit so tightly? Bearings typically aren't that tight. Mike |
Re: Installing Control Arm Bushings: Tips?
"Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:4OQbg.118$Yu1.51@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink .net... > Anyone have any special tips for this? > > I am struggling mightily with this for my front lower driver's side > control arm on my 91 Civic LX, 176k miles. > > I heated the whole arm in the oven for about half an hour at 150 degrees > F. I applied soap and then PB Blaster. I did not clean the control arm > bushing holes hardly at all, though. I have to get some emery cloth. > > Out of stupidity, while trying to install the new bushings, I already > somewhat mushroomed the bolt holes but I think I recovered from that. I > got the large one in but then, while recovering from the mushrooming, it > slipped out again. > > I got the arm off easily this morning (all except the radius rod bolts had > been previously freed). I had problems all day getting the outer sleeve of > the bushings free. I cut out the inner sleeve and rubber pretty easily, > per my earlier thread on this. But the outer sleeves seemed much tighter > compared to my practice control arm of a few weeks ago. Exhausting... > > I see cautions in various auto newsgroup archives about banging too much > on the control arms. I am prepared to buy one second hand from a junkyard, > if need be. Also, it has been so laborious today that I may very well take > the passenger side's control arm to my local Napa, which does have bushing > press service. > > At this point I am thinking that, certainly for older cars, replacing the > bushings one's self is a huge roll of the dice without industrial > equipment. My experiment is largely a failure. > Not a failure; an experience! I'm going to throw out this suggestion for comment, because it could produce results ranging from resounding success to being stuck. How about temperature-fitting the bushings; either freezing the bushings or heating the control arm? The upside is that the parts should fit together with no more than a solid blow or two from a mallet, while the downside is that if they go partway you are probably no better off than you are now - maybe worse - and don't get a second chance. I've never done it myself but I assume the temperature difference fades quickly once the pieces are in contact. Does anybody know why bushings are fit so tightly? Bearings typically aren't that tight. Mike |
Re: Installing Control Arm Bushings: Tips?
Michael Pardee wrote: > > "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote in message > news:4OQbg.118$Yu1.51@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink .net... > > Anyone have any special tips for this? > > > > I am struggling mightily with this for my front lower driver's side > > control arm on my 91 Civic LX, 176k miles. > > > > I heated the whole arm in the oven for about half an hour at 150 degrees > > F. I applied soap and then PB Blaster. I did not clean the control arm > > bushing holes hardly at all, though. I have to get some emery cloth. > > > > Out of stupidity, while trying to install the new bushings, I already > > somewhat mushroomed the bolt holes but I think I recovered from that. I > > got the large one in but then, while recovering from the mushrooming, it > > slipped out again. > > > > I got the arm off easily this morning (all except the radius rod bolts had > > been previously freed). I had problems all day getting the outer sleeve of > > the bushings free. I cut out the inner sleeve and rubber pretty easily, > > per my earlier thread on this. But the outer sleeves seemed much tighter > > compared to my practice control arm of a few weeks ago. Exhausting... > > > > I see cautions in various auto newsgroup archives about banging too much > > on the control arms. I am prepared to buy one second hand from a junkyard, > > if need be. Also, it has been so laborious today that I may very well take > > the passenger side's control arm to my local Napa, which does have bushing > > press service. > > > > At this point I am thinking that, certainly for older cars, replacing the > > bushings one's self is a huge roll of the dice without industrial > > equipment. My experiment is largely a failure. > > > Not a failure; an experience! > > I'm going to throw out this suggestion for comment, because it could produce > results ranging from resounding success to being stuck. How about > temperature-fitting the bushings; either freezing the bushings or heating > the control arm? The upside is that the parts should fit together with no > more than a solid blow or two from a mallet, while the downside is that if > they go partway you are probably no better off than you are now - maybe > worse - and don't get a second chance. I've never done it myself but I > assume the temperature difference fades quickly once the pieces are in > contact. > She mentioned that the control arm was heated to 150°. I would suggest 200° as a more realistic temp which is still below that which would degrade the assembly. Freezing the bushings will also help. My experience in this is mostly with brand X cars but I have had little problems with installing bushings using the temperature techniques. It does help when a second person is available to hold the control arm on top of a vise so that the OP can concentrate on "beating" the bushing into location. > Does anybody know why bushings are fit so tightly? Bearings typically aren't > that tight. > Bushings are an "interference" fit which is a characteristic of many static components. IOW, cheap stability. A bearing is a lubricated pivot while the bushing is a static pivot using rubber instead of grease. > Mike |
Re: Installing Control Arm Bushings: Tips?
Michael Pardee wrote: > > "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote in message > news:4OQbg.118$Yu1.51@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink .net... > > Anyone have any special tips for this? > > > > I am struggling mightily with this for my front lower driver's side > > control arm on my 91 Civic LX, 176k miles. > > > > I heated the whole arm in the oven for about half an hour at 150 degrees > > F. I applied soap and then PB Blaster. I did not clean the control arm > > bushing holes hardly at all, though. I have to get some emery cloth. > > > > Out of stupidity, while trying to install the new bushings, I already > > somewhat mushroomed the bolt holes but I think I recovered from that. I > > got the large one in but then, while recovering from the mushrooming, it > > slipped out again. > > > > I got the arm off easily this morning (all except the radius rod bolts had > > been previously freed). I had problems all day getting the outer sleeve of > > the bushings free. I cut out the inner sleeve and rubber pretty easily, > > per my earlier thread on this. But the outer sleeves seemed much tighter > > compared to my practice control arm of a few weeks ago. Exhausting... > > > > I see cautions in various auto newsgroup archives about banging too much > > on the control arms. I am prepared to buy one second hand from a junkyard, > > if need be. Also, it has been so laborious today that I may very well take > > the passenger side's control arm to my local Napa, which does have bushing > > press service. > > > > At this point I am thinking that, certainly for older cars, replacing the > > bushings one's self is a huge roll of the dice without industrial > > equipment. My experiment is largely a failure. > > > Not a failure; an experience! > > I'm going to throw out this suggestion for comment, because it could produce > results ranging from resounding success to being stuck. How about > temperature-fitting the bushings; either freezing the bushings or heating > the control arm? The upside is that the parts should fit together with no > more than a solid blow or two from a mallet, while the downside is that if > they go partway you are probably no better off than you are now - maybe > worse - and don't get a second chance. I've never done it myself but I > assume the temperature difference fades quickly once the pieces are in > contact. > She mentioned that the control arm was heated to 150°. I would suggest 200° as a more realistic temp which is still below that which would degrade the assembly. Freezing the bushings will also help. My experience in this is mostly with brand X cars but I have had little problems with installing bushings using the temperature techniques. It does help when a second person is available to hold the control arm on top of a vise so that the OP can concentrate on "beating" the bushing into location. > Does anybody know why bushings are fit so tightly? Bearings typically aren't > that tight. > Bushings are an "interference" fit which is a characteristic of many static components. IOW, cheap stability. A bearing is a lubricated pivot while the bushing is a static pivot using rubber instead of grease. > Mike |
Re: Installing Control Arm Bushings: Tips?
Michael Pardee wrote: > > "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote in message > news:4OQbg.118$Yu1.51@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink .net... > > Anyone have any special tips for this? > > > > I am struggling mightily with this for my front lower driver's side > > control arm on my 91 Civic LX, 176k miles. > > > > I heated the whole arm in the oven for about half an hour at 150 degrees > > F. I applied soap and then PB Blaster. I did not clean the control arm > > bushing holes hardly at all, though. I have to get some emery cloth. > > > > Out of stupidity, while trying to install the new bushings, I already > > somewhat mushroomed the bolt holes but I think I recovered from that. I > > got the large one in but then, while recovering from the mushrooming, it > > slipped out again. > > > > I got the arm off easily this morning (all except the radius rod bolts had > > been previously freed). I had problems all day getting the outer sleeve of > > the bushings free. I cut out the inner sleeve and rubber pretty easily, > > per my earlier thread on this. But the outer sleeves seemed much tighter > > compared to my practice control arm of a few weeks ago. Exhausting... > > > > I see cautions in various auto newsgroup archives about banging too much > > on the control arms. I am prepared to buy one second hand from a junkyard, > > if need be. Also, it has been so laborious today that I may very well take > > the passenger side's control arm to my local Napa, which does have bushing > > press service. > > > > At this point I am thinking that, certainly for older cars, replacing the > > bushings one's self is a huge roll of the dice without industrial > > equipment. My experiment is largely a failure. > > > Not a failure; an experience! > > I'm going to throw out this suggestion for comment, because it could produce > results ranging from resounding success to being stuck. How about > temperature-fitting the bushings; either freezing the bushings or heating > the control arm? The upside is that the parts should fit together with no > more than a solid blow or two from a mallet, while the downside is that if > they go partway you are probably no better off than you are now - maybe > worse - and don't get a second chance. I've never done it myself but I > assume the temperature difference fades quickly once the pieces are in > contact. > She mentioned that the control arm was heated to 150°. I would suggest 200° as a more realistic temp which is still below that which would degrade the assembly. Freezing the bushings will also help. My experience in this is mostly with brand X cars but I have had little problems with installing bushings using the temperature techniques. It does help when a second person is available to hold the control arm on top of a vise so that the OP can concentrate on "beating" the bushing into location. > Does anybody know why bushings are fit so tightly? Bearings typically aren't > that tight. > Bushings are an "interference" fit which is a characteristic of many static components. IOW, cheap stability. A bearing is a lubricated pivot while the bushing is a static pivot using rubber instead of grease. > Mike |
Got 'Em [was Re: Installing Control Arm Bushings: Tips?]
"Grumpy AuContraire" <Grumpster@GrumpyvilleNOT.com> wrote
> Michael Pardee wrote: >> "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote >> > Anyone have any special tips for this? >> > >> > I am struggling mightily with this for my front lower >> > driver's side >> > control arm on my 91 Civic LX, 176k miles. >> > >> > I heated the whole arm in the oven for about half an >> > hour at 150 degrees >> > F. I applied soap and then PB Blaster. I did not clean >> > the control arm >> > bushing holes hardly at all, though. I have to get some >> > emery cloth. >> > >> > Out of stupidity, while trying to install the new >> > bushings, I already >> > somewhat mushroomed the bolt holes but I think I >> > recovered from that. I >> > got the large one in but then, while recovering from >> > the mushrooming, it >> > slipped out again. >> > >> > I got the arm off easily this morning (all except the >> > radius rod bolts had >> > been previously freed). I had problems all day getting >> > the outer sleeve of >> > the bushings free. I cut out the inner sleeve and >> > rubber pretty easily, >> > per my earlier thread on this. But the outer sleeves >> > seemed much tighter >> > compared to my practice control arm of a few weeks ago. >> > Exhausting... >> > >> > I see cautions in various auto newsgroup archives about >> > banging too much >> > on the control arms. I am prepared to buy one second >> > hand from a junkyard, >> > if need be. Also, it has been so laborious today that I >> > may very well take >> > the passenger side's control arm to my local Napa, >> > which does have bushing >> > press service. >> > >> > At this point I am thinking that, certainly for older >> > cars, replacing the >> > bushings one's self is a huge roll of the dice without >> > industrial >> > equipment. My experiment is largely a failure. >> > >> Not a failure; an experience! You're right. Much has been learned. I'm game now to go for the passender side in a week or so, because I learned so much doing the driver's side. >> I'm going to throw out this suggestion for comment, >> because it could produce >> results ranging from resounding success to being stuck. >> How about >> temperature-fitting the bushings; either freezing the >> bushings or heating >> the control arm? The upside is that the parts should fit >> together with no >> more than a solid blow or two from a mallet, while the >> downside is that if >> they go partway you are probably no better off than you >> are now - maybe >> worse - and don't get a second chance. I've never done it >> myself but I >> assume the temperature difference fades quickly once the >> pieces are in >> contact. >> > > She mentioned that the control arm was heated to 150°. I > would suggest > 200° as a more realistic temp which is still below that > which would > degrade the assembly. Freezing the bushings will also > help. > > My experience in this is mostly with brand X cars but I > have had little > problems with installing bushings using the temperature > techniques. It > does help when a second person is available to hold the > control arm on > top of a vise so that the OP can concentrate on "beating" > the bushing > into location. > > > >> Does anybody know why bushings are fit so tightly? >> Bearings typically aren't >> that tight. >> > > > Bushings are an "interference" fit which is a > characteristic of many > static components. IOW, cheap stability. A bearing is a > lubricated > pivot while the bushing is a static pivot using rubber > instead of grease. Good explanation JT and Michael, I got them installed this morning. I think the problem was my lack of experience and being too tired yesterday evening. I agree heating the arm (though perhaps to 200 F) and refrigerating the bushings for an hour or so will help (with Honda bushings, at least), based on what I saw yesterday and a few days ago when my bushings first arrived. I didn't do either this morning and so probably put forth more effort than necessary. This morning the important things I did seemed to be -- Sandpapering (100-C aluminum oxide grade) the insides of the control arm holes. -- Hammering just a little, and only on the outer sleeve with a socket that fits it, to get things started. Line it up carefully. -- Using the socket-bolt-nut washer-(any ol' donut shaped parts lying around that would help, and many did!)-approach described at http://www.maxcooper.com/rx7/how-to/...lls/index.html . It didn't take all that much force. I used mostly a two-foot pipe extension on my wrenches and wasn't applying my whole weight or anything. It's important to have sockets that fit the outer sleeve well, etc. -- Do not push on the inner sleeve. Push strictly on the outer sleeve (I wasn't doing this last night when I was whacking away). -- PB Blastering consistently through the process, both sides of the bushing. The bushings went in pretty smoothly, though it took awhile as I hunted for parts and re-arranged sockets, washers, donut-y parts. Just knowing it can be done helps a lot. Michael, about going halfway: If the bushing is aligned with the control arm pretty well, that's when, after the last day of experience, I now feel I can pretty easily push it in with the socket-bolt-nut-washer-PBBlaster Max Cooper approach. If I heat the arms and freeze the bushings, admittedly I may not have to whack at all. I had originally ordered a "front control arm set" of Mugen Bushings from KingMotorSports.com. They arrived in the mail on time, but only two(!) bushings came in the package. The control arms hold a total of four bushings (two small, two large). I called King's non-toll free number, and the clerk explained that I needed to order the large, "shock absorber" bushings separately. That's not entirely clear from King's web site. The cost per inboard Mugen bushing was a whopping $25. Roiled, I sent them back and took the sizable restocking fee and shipping/handling hit. I called my favorite import auto repair shop to see what they had to offer. They had for me OEM Honda parts at a price that beats any OEM price on the net. Interestingly, the guy at the shop explained to me that they buy the bushings from the companies that make them. He showed me the part nos. on the packaging and the bushings themselves, and they do indeed match the OEM ones at Slhonda.com . When I picked them up, I asked him what companies made them, and he read them from the order form. Both of course are in Japan. Having had no previous experience on this on which to rely, I had a lot of doubts that I was doing things correctly and so sought more input. Many thanks, JT and Michael. |
Got 'Em [was Re: Installing Control Arm Bushings: Tips?]
"Grumpy AuContraire" <Grumpster@GrumpyvilleNOT.com> wrote
> Michael Pardee wrote: >> "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote >> > Anyone have any special tips for this? >> > >> > I am struggling mightily with this for my front lower >> > driver's side >> > control arm on my 91 Civic LX, 176k miles. >> > >> > I heated the whole arm in the oven for about half an >> > hour at 150 degrees >> > F. I applied soap and then PB Blaster. I did not clean >> > the control arm >> > bushing holes hardly at all, though. I have to get some >> > emery cloth. >> > >> > Out of stupidity, while trying to install the new >> > bushings, I already >> > somewhat mushroomed the bolt holes but I think I >> > recovered from that. I >> > got the large one in but then, while recovering from >> > the mushrooming, it >> > slipped out again. >> > >> > I got the arm off easily this morning (all except the >> > radius rod bolts had >> > been previously freed). I had problems all day getting >> > the outer sleeve of >> > the bushings free. I cut out the inner sleeve and >> > rubber pretty easily, >> > per my earlier thread on this. But the outer sleeves >> > seemed much tighter >> > compared to my practice control arm of a few weeks ago. >> > Exhausting... >> > >> > I see cautions in various auto newsgroup archives about >> > banging too much >> > on the control arms. I am prepared to buy one second >> > hand from a junkyard, >> > if need be. Also, it has been so laborious today that I >> > may very well take >> > the passenger side's control arm to my local Napa, >> > which does have bushing >> > press service. >> > >> > At this point I am thinking that, certainly for older >> > cars, replacing the >> > bushings one's self is a huge roll of the dice without >> > industrial >> > equipment. My experiment is largely a failure. >> > >> Not a failure; an experience! You're right. Much has been learned. I'm game now to go for the passender side in a week or so, because I learned so much doing the driver's side. >> I'm going to throw out this suggestion for comment, >> because it could produce >> results ranging from resounding success to being stuck. >> How about >> temperature-fitting the bushings; either freezing the >> bushings or heating >> the control arm? The upside is that the parts should fit >> together with no >> more than a solid blow or two from a mallet, while the >> downside is that if >> they go partway you are probably no better off than you >> are now - maybe >> worse - and don't get a second chance. I've never done it >> myself but I >> assume the temperature difference fades quickly once the >> pieces are in >> contact. >> > > She mentioned that the control arm was heated to 150°. I > would suggest > 200° as a more realistic temp which is still below that > which would > degrade the assembly. Freezing the bushings will also > help. > > My experience in this is mostly with brand X cars but I > have had little > problems with installing bushings using the temperature > techniques. It > does help when a second person is available to hold the > control arm on > top of a vise so that the OP can concentrate on "beating" > the bushing > into location. > > > >> Does anybody know why bushings are fit so tightly? >> Bearings typically aren't >> that tight. >> > > > Bushings are an "interference" fit which is a > characteristic of many > static components. IOW, cheap stability. A bearing is a > lubricated > pivot while the bushing is a static pivot using rubber > instead of grease. Good explanation JT and Michael, I got them installed this morning. I think the problem was my lack of experience and being too tired yesterday evening. I agree heating the arm (though perhaps to 200 F) and refrigerating the bushings for an hour or so will help (with Honda bushings, at least), based on what I saw yesterday and a few days ago when my bushings first arrived. I didn't do either this morning and so probably put forth more effort than necessary. This morning the important things I did seemed to be -- Sandpapering (100-C aluminum oxide grade) the insides of the control arm holes. -- Hammering just a little, and only on the outer sleeve with a socket that fits it, to get things started. Line it up carefully. -- Using the socket-bolt-nut washer-(any ol' donut shaped parts lying around that would help, and many did!)-approach described at http://www.maxcooper.com/rx7/how-to/...lls/index.html . It didn't take all that much force. I used mostly a two-foot pipe extension on my wrenches and wasn't applying my whole weight or anything. It's important to have sockets that fit the outer sleeve well, etc. -- Do not push on the inner sleeve. Push strictly on the outer sleeve (I wasn't doing this last night when I was whacking away). -- PB Blastering consistently through the process, both sides of the bushing. The bushings went in pretty smoothly, though it took awhile as I hunted for parts and re-arranged sockets, washers, donut-y parts. Just knowing it can be done helps a lot. Michael, about going halfway: If the bushing is aligned with the control arm pretty well, that's when, after the last day of experience, I now feel I can pretty easily push it in with the socket-bolt-nut-washer-PBBlaster Max Cooper approach. If I heat the arms and freeze the bushings, admittedly I may not have to whack at all. I had originally ordered a "front control arm set" of Mugen Bushings from KingMotorSports.com. They arrived in the mail on time, but only two(!) bushings came in the package. The control arms hold a total of four bushings (two small, two large). I called King's non-toll free number, and the clerk explained that I needed to order the large, "shock absorber" bushings separately. That's not entirely clear from King's web site. The cost per inboard Mugen bushing was a whopping $25. Roiled, I sent them back and took the sizable restocking fee and shipping/handling hit. I called my favorite import auto repair shop to see what they had to offer. They had for me OEM Honda parts at a price that beats any OEM price on the net. Interestingly, the guy at the shop explained to me that they buy the bushings from the companies that make them. He showed me the part nos. on the packaging and the bushings themselves, and they do indeed match the OEM ones at Slhonda.com . When I picked them up, I asked him what companies made them, and he read them from the order form. Both of course are in Japan. Having had no previous experience on this on which to rely, I had a lot of doubts that I was doing things correctly and so sought more input. Many thanks, JT and Michael. |
Got 'Em [was Re: Installing Control Arm Bushings: Tips?]
"Grumpy AuContraire" <Grumpster@GrumpyvilleNOT.com> wrote
> Michael Pardee wrote: >> "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote >> > Anyone have any special tips for this? >> > >> > I am struggling mightily with this for my front lower >> > driver's side >> > control arm on my 91 Civic LX, 176k miles. >> > >> > I heated the whole arm in the oven for about half an >> > hour at 150 degrees >> > F. I applied soap and then PB Blaster. I did not clean >> > the control arm >> > bushing holes hardly at all, though. I have to get some >> > emery cloth. >> > >> > Out of stupidity, while trying to install the new >> > bushings, I already >> > somewhat mushroomed the bolt holes but I think I >> > recovered from that. I >> > got the large one in but then, while recovering from >> > the mushrooming, it >> > slipped out again. >> > >> > I got the arm off easily this morning (all except the >> > radius rod bolts had >> > been previously freed). I had problems all day getting >> > the outer sleeve of >> > the bushings free. I cut out the inner sleeve and >> > rubber pretty easily, >> > per my earlier thread on this. But the outer sleeves >> > seemed much tighter >> > compared to my practice control arm of a few weeks ago. >> > Exhausting... >> > >> > I see cautions in various auto newsgroup archives about >> > banging too much >> > on the control arms. I am prepared to buy one second >> > hand from a junkyard, >> > if need be. Also, it has been so laborious today that I >> > may very well take >> > the passenger side's control arm to my local Napa, >> > which does have bushing >> > press service. >> > >> > At this point I am thinking that, certainly for older >> > cars, replacing the >> > bushings one's self is a huge roll of the dice without >> > industrial >> > equipment. My experiment is largely a failure. >> > >> Not a failure; an experience! You're right. Much has been learned. I'm game now to go for the passender side in a week or so, because I learned so much doing the driver's side. >> I'm going to throw out this suggestion for comment, >> because it could produce >> results ranging from resounding success to being stuck. >> How about >> temperature-fitting the bushings; either freezing the >> bushings or heating >> the control arm? The upside is that the parts should fit >> together with no >> more than a solid blow or two from a mallet, while the >> downside is that if >> they go partway you are probably no better off than you >> are now - maybe >> worse - and don't get a second chance. I've never done it >> myself but I >> assume the temperature difference fades quickly once the >> pieces are in >> contact. >> > > She mentioned that the control arm was heated to 150°. I > would suggest > 200° as a more realistic temp which is still below that > which would > degrade the assembly. Freezing the bushings will also > help. > > My experience in this is mostly with brand X cars but I > have had little > problems with installing bushings using the temperature > techniques. It > does help when a second person is available to hold the > control arm on > top of a vise so that the OP can concentrate on "beating" > the bushing > into location. > > > >> Does anybody know why bushings are fit so tightly? >> Bearings typically aren't >> that tight. >> > > > Bushings are an "interference" fit which is a > characteristic of many > static components. IOW, cheap stability. A bearing is a > lubricated > pivot while the bushing is a static pivot using rubber > instead of grease. Good explanation JT and Michael, I got them installed this morning. I think the problem was my lack of experience and being too tired yesterday evening. I agree heating the arm (though perhaps to 200 F) and refrigerating the bushings for an hour or so will help (with Honda bushings, at least), based on what I saw yesterday and a few days ago when my bushings first arrived. I didn't do either this morning and so probably put forth more effort than necessary. This morning the important things I did seemed to be -- Sandpapering (100-C aluminum oxide grade) the insides of the control arm holes. -- Hammering just a little, and only on the outer sleeve with a socket that fits it, to get things started. Line it up carefully. -- Using the socket-bolt-nut washer-(any ol' donut shaped parts lying around that would help, and many did!)-approach described at http://www.maxcooper.com/rx7/how-to/...lls/index.html . It didn't take all that much force. I used mostly a two-foot pipe extension on my wrenches and wasn't applying my whole weight or anything. It's important to have sockets that fit the outer sleeve well, etc. -- Do not push on the inner sleeve. Push strictly on the outer sleeve (I wasn't doing this last night when I was whacking away). -- PB Blastering consistently through the process, both sides of the bushing. The bushings went in pretty smoothly, though it took awhile as I hunted for parts and re-arranged sockets, washers, donut-y parts. Just knowing it can be done helps a lot. Michael, about going halfway: If the bushing is aligned with the control arm pretty well, that's when, after the last day of experience, I now feel I can pretty easily push it in with the socket-bolt-nut-washer-PBBlaster Max Cooper approach. If I heat the arms and freeze the bushings, admittedly I may not have to whack at all. I had originally ordered a "front control arm set" of Mugen Bushings from KingMotorSports.com. They arrived in the mail on time, but only two(!) bushings came in the package. The control arms hold a total of four bushings (two small, two large). I called King's non-toll free number, and the clerk explained that I needed to order the large, "shock absorber" bushings separately. That's not entirely clear from King's web site. The cost per inboard Mugen bushing was a whopping $25. Roiled, I sent them back and took the sizable restocking fee and shipping/handling hit. I called my favorite import auto repair shop to see what they had to offer. They had for me OEM Honda parts at a price that beats any OEM price on the net. Interestingly, the guy at the shop explained to me that they buy the bushings from the companies that make them. He showed me the part nos. on the packaging and the bushings themselves, and they do indeed match the OEM ones at Slhonda.com . When I picked them up, I asked him what companies made them, and he read them from the order form. Both of course are in Japan. Having had no previous experience on this on which to rely, I had a lot of doubts that I was doing things correctly and so sought more input. Many thanks, JT and Michael. |
Re: Installing Control Arm Bushings: Tips?
In another thread recently, JT (= Grumpy) said to heat the
entire arm. From further reading, I think local heating with, say, a torch, runs a risk of deforming the arm. But I dunno. I just figured if I wiped the control arm free of dirt and oil, then the temperature would be low enough that I wasn't risking a fire or filling the house up with the odor of roasted control arm. Should you need me to speak with your wife about cooking auto parts in her oven, email me in private. ;-) "Earle Horton" <earle-NOSPAM-horton@msn.com> wrote > One of the perks of being female, I suppose, is that you > can get away with > putting auto parts in an oven. I hammered on a few > control arms in my > younger days, but I no longer do this. A large bench > vise, a piece of > threaded rod and some sockets, or a machine shop work much > better. If you > learn from this, it was not a "failure". All true. I'm getting old. Ten years hence, I'm using Napa's shop press service. |
Re: Installing Control Arm Bushings: Tips?
In another thread recently, JT (= Grumpy) said to heat the
entire arm. From further reading, I think local heating with, say, a torch, runs a risk of deforming the arm. But I dunno. I just figured if I wiped the control arm free of dirt and oil, then the temperature would be low enough that I wasn't risking a fire or filling the house up with the odor of roasted control arm. Should you need me to speak with your wife about cooking auto parts in her oven, email me in private. ;-) "Earle Horton" <earle-NOSPAM-horton@msn.com> wrote > One of the perks of being female, I suppose, is that you > can get away with > putting auto parts in an oven. I hammered on a few > control arms in my > younger days, but I no longer do this. A large bench > vise, a piece of > threaded rod and some sockets, or a machine shop work much > better. If you > learn from this, it was not a "failure". All true. I'm getting old. Ten years hence, I'm using Napa's shop press service. |
Re: Installing Control Arm Bushings: Tips?
In another thread recently, JT (= Grumpy) said to heat the
entire arm. From further reading, I think local heating with, say, a torch, runs a risk of deforming the arm. But I dunno. I just figured if I wiped the control arm free of dirt and oil, then the temperature would be low enough that I wasn't risking a fire or filling the house up with the odor of roasted control arm. Should you need me to speak with your wife about cooking auto parts in her oven, email me in private. ;-) "Earle Horton" <earle-NOSPAM-horton@msn.com> wrote > One of the perks of being female, I suppose, is that you > can get away with > putting auto parts in an oven. I hammered on a few > control arms in my > younger days, but I no longer do this. A large bench > vise, a piece of > threaded rod and some sockets, or a machine shop work much > better. If you > learn from this, it was not a "failure". All true. I'm getting old. Ten years hence, I'm using Napa's shop press service. |
Re: Installing Control Arm Bushings: Tips?
One of the perks of being female, I suppose, is that you can get away with
putting auto parts in an oven. I hammered on a few control arms in my younger days, but I no longer do this. A large bench vise, a piece of threaded rod and some sockets, or a machine shop work much better. If you learn from this, it was not a "failure". Earle "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote in message news:4OQbg.118$Yu1.51@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink .net... > Anyone have any special tips for this? > > I am struggling mightily with this for my front lower > driver's side control arm on my 91 Civic LX, 176k miles. > > I heated the whole arm in the oven for about half an hour at > 150 degrees F. I applied soap and then PB Blaster. I did not > clean the control arm bushing holes hardly at all, though. I > have to get some emery cloth. > > Out of stupidity, while trying to install the new bushings, > I already somewhat mushroomed the bolt holes but I think I > recovered from that. I got the large one in but then, while > recovering from the mushrooming, it slipped out again. > > I got the arm off easily this morning (all except the radius > rod bolts had been previously freed). I had problems all day > getting the outer sleeve of the bushings free. I cut out the > inner sleeve and rubber pretty easily, per my earlier thread > on this. But the outer sleeves seemed much tighter compared > to my practice control arm of a few weeks ago. Exhausting... > > I see cautions in various auto newsgroup archives about > banging too much on the control arms. I am prepared to buy > one second hand from a junkyard, if need be. Also, it has > been so laborious today that I may very well take the > passenger side's control arm to my local Napa, which does > have bushing press service. > > At this point I am thinking that, certainly for older cars, > replacing the bushings one's self is a huge roll of the dice > without industrial equipment. My experiment is largely a > failure. > > *** Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com *** |
Re: Installing Control Arm Bushings: Tips?
One of the perks of being female, I suppose, is that you can get away with
putting auto parts in an oven. I hammered on a few control arms in my younger days, but I no longer do this. A large bench vise, a piece of threaded rod and some sockets, or a machine shop work much better. If you learn from this, it was not a "failure". Earle "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote in message news:4OQbg.118$Yu1.51@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink .net... > Anyone have any special tips for this? > > I am struggling mightily with this for my front lower > driver's side control arm on my 91 Civic LX, 176k miles. > > I heated the whole arm in the oven for about half an hour at > 150 degrees F. I applied soap and then PB Blaster. I did not > clean the control arm bushing holes hardly at all, though. I > have to get some emery cloth. > > Out of stupidity, while trying to install the new bushings, > I already somewhat mushroomed the bolt holes but I think I > recovered from that. I got the large one in but then, while > recovering from the mushrooming, it slipped out again. > > I got the arm off easily this morning (all except the radius > rod bolts had been previously freed). I had problems all day > getting the outer sleeve of the bushings free. I cut out the > inner sleeve and rubber pretty easily, per my earlier thread > on this. But the outer sleeves seemed much tighter compared > to my practice control arm of a few weeks ago. Exhausting... > > I see cautions in various auto newsgroup archives about > banging too much on the control arms. I am prepared to buy > one second hand from a junkyard, if need be. Also, it has > been so laborious today that I may very well take the > passenger side's control arm to my local Napa, which does > have bushing press service. > > At this point I am thinking that, certainly for older cars, > replacing the bushings one's self is a huge roll of the dice > without industrial equipment. My experiment is largely a > failure. > > *** Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com *** |
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