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Re: Let's Talk Turkey --- Head Bolts 'n Stuff
Hey Grumpy, you sure started a pretty long thread!
Most of it is correct, and your replies show you are on the right track too. -Yes, they say those bolts are only one use, but I have re-used them in D-15 motors with NO problems. IF you have a problem it will be when the threaded portion breaks off on the final torque. If that should happen, your $16 ea will be well spent. Run a tap into each of those head bolt holes. I've pulled out LOTS of crap from the bottom of a hole that would have screwed up torque values. Engine oil on threads?? Forget it! I saw an interesting demonstration by an ARP guy torqueing fasteners with oil and assembly lube. The oiled one creaked as it was torqued. The other one was quiet, and torqued smoothly. ARP assembly lube is $15 for a tube but it will last a long time. I also use nev-r-seize too, and it works well. I would worry more about the rod bolts. THESE are the ones that snap when re-used and should be checked carefully. -SP |
Re: Let's Talk Turkey --- Head Bolts 'n Stuff
Hey Grumpy, you sure started a pretty long thread!
Most of it is correct, and your replies show you are on the right track too. -Yes, they say those bolts are only one use, but I have re-used them in D-15 motors with NO problems. IF you have a problem it will be when the threaded portion breaks off on the final torque. If that should happen, your $16 ea will be well spent. Run a tap into each of those head bolt holes. I've pulled out LOTS of crap from the bottom of a hole that would have screwed up torque values. Engine oil on threads?? Forget it! I saw an interesting demonstration by an ARP guy torqueing fasteners with oil and assembly lube. The oiled one creaked as it was torqued. The other one was quiet, and torqued smoothly. ARP assembly lube is $15 for a tube but it will last a long time. I also use nev-r-seize too, and it works well. I would worry more about the rod bolts. THESE are the ones that snap when re-used and should be checked carefully. -SP |
Re: Let's Talk Turkey --- Head Bolts 'n Stuff
Speedy Pete wrote:
> Hey Grumpy, you sure started a pretty long thread! > > Most of it is correct, and your replies show you are on the right track > too. > > -Yes, they say those bolts are only one use, no they're not. > but I have re-used them in > D-15 motors with NO problems. unsurprisingly! > IF you have a problem it will be when the > threaded portion breaks off on the final torque. torque to yield bolts don't work like that. you'd have to go /way/ over yield to shear these bolts. torque to yield bolts are typically loaded to 98% of yield, not 90% like a normal bolt. the remaining 2%+ to actually yield them occurs on first warmup and the resultant thermal expansion. yield does typically /not/ occur during actual bolt tightening. > If that should happen, > your $16 ea will be well spent. > > Run a tap into each of those head bolt holes. I've pulled out LOTS of > crap from the bottom of a hole that would have screwed up torque values. > > Engine oil on threads?? Forget it! I saw an interesting demonstration by > an ARP guy torqueing fasteners with oil and assembly lube. The oiled one > creaked as it was torqued. The other one was quiet, and torqued > smoothly. ARP assembly lube is $15 for a tube but it will last a long > time. I also use nev-r-seize too, and it works well. you can use whatever you want to lube on reassembly, BUT IF NOT USING THE LUBE IT SAYS IN THE BOOK, YOU NEED TO USE A DIFFERENT TORQUE VALUE. if you want to use book torque, you use book lube. > > I would worry more about the rod bolts. THESE are the ones that snap > when re-used and should be checked carefully. > where do you work speedy? |
Re: Let's Talk Turkey --- Head Bolts 'n Stuff
Speedy Pete wrote:
> Hey Grumpy, you sure started a pretty long thread! > > Most of it is correct, and your replies show you are on the right track > too. > > -Yes, they say those bolts are only one use, no they're not. > but I have re-used them in > D-15 motors with NO problems. unsurprisingly! > IF you have a problem it will be when the > threaded portion breaks off on the final torque. torque to yield bolts don't work like that. you'd have to go /way/ over yield to shear these bolts. torque to yield bolts are typically loaded to 98% of yield, not 90% like a normal bolt. the remaining 2%+ to actually yield them occurs on first warmup and the resultant thermal expansion. yield does typically /not/ occur during actual bolt tightening. > If that should happen, > your $16 ea will be well spent. > > Run a tap into each of those head bolt holes. I've pulled out LOTS of > crap from the bottom of a hole that would have screwed up torque values. > > Engine oil on threads?? Forget it! I saw an interesting demonstration by > an ARP guy torqueing fasteners with oil and assembly lube. The oiled one > creaked as it was torqued. The other one was quiet, and torqued > smoothly. ARP assembly lube is $15 for a tube but it will last a long > time. I also use nev-r-seize too, and it works well. you can use whatever you want to lube on reassembly, BUT IF NOT USING THE LUBE IT SAYS IN THE BOOK, YOU NEED TO USE A DIFFERENT TORQUE VALUE. if you want to use book torque, you use book lube. > > I would worry more about the rod bolts. THESE are the ones that snap > when re-used and should be checked carefully. > where do you work speedy? |
Re: Let's Talk Turkey --- Head Bolts 'n Stuff
On Apr 21, 10:16 pm, Grumpy AuContraire <Gru...@ExtraGrumpyville.com>
wrote: > Tegger wrote: > > Grumpy AuContraire <Gru...@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote in news:YjuWh.65383 > > $VU4.13...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net: > > >>At any rate, any comments? > > > Is the head gasket steel sandwiched with teflon, or is it fiber sandwiched > > with steel? > > ??? Appears to be fiber sandwiching steel. > > > > > And what kind of tightening spec does your manual specify? > > 25 ft lbs 1st round and 47 2nd round. Doesn't mention a thing about > "one use" bolts. > > JT If the manual gives a torque spec and doesn't mention using new bolts, I would assume they are reused. Is this the official Honda manual? |
Re: Let's Talk Turkey --- Head Bolts 'n Stuff
On Apr 21, 10:16 pm, Grumpy AuContraire <Gru...@ExtraGrumpyville.com>
wrote: > Tegger wrote: > > Grumpy AuContraire <Gru...@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote in news:YjuWh.65383 > > $VU4.13...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net: > > >>At any rate, any comments? > > > Is the head gasket steel sandwiched with teflon, or is it fiber sandwiched > > with steel? > > ??? Appears to be fiber sandwiching steel. > > > > > And what kind of tightening spec does your manual specify? > > 25 ft lbs 1st round and 47 2nd round. Doesn't mention a thing about > "one use" bolts. > > JT If the manual gives a torque spec and doesn't mention using new bolts, I would assume they are reused. Is this the official Honda manual? |
Re: Let's Talk Turkey --- Head Bolts 'n Stuff
z wrote: > On Apr 21, 10:16 pm, Grumpy AuContraire <Gru...@ExtraGrumpyville.com> > wrote: > >>Tegger wrote: >> >>>Grumpy AuContraire <Gru...@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote in news:YjuWh.65383 >>>$VU4.13...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net: >> >>>>At any rate, any comments? >> >>>Is the head gasket steel sandwiched with teflon, or is it fiber sandwiched >>>with steel? >> >>??? Appears to be fiber sandwiching steel. >> >> >> >> >>>And what kind of tightening spec does your manual specify? >> >>25 ft lbs 1st round and 47 2nd round. Doesn't mention a thing about >>"one use" bolts. >> >>JT > > > If the manual gives a torque spec and doesn't mention using new bolts, > I would assume they are reused. Is this the official Honda manual? > Yes. JT |
Re: Let's Talk Turkey --- Head Bolts 'n Stuff
z wrote: > On Apr 21, 10:16 pm, Grumpy AuContraire <Gru...@ExtraGrumpyville.com> > wrote: > >>Tegger wrote: >> >>>Grumpy AuContraire <Gru...@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote in news:YjuWh.65383 >>>$VU4.13...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net: >> >>>>At any rate, any comments? >> >>>Is the head gasket steel sandwiched with teflon, or is it fiber sandwiched >>>with steel? >> >>??? Appears to be fiber sandwiching steel. >> >> >> >> >>>And what kind of tightening spec does your manual specify? >> >>25 ft lbs 1st round and 47 2nd round. Doesn't mention a thing about >>"one use" bolts. >> >>JT > > > If the manual gives a torque spec and doesn't mention using new bolts, > I would assume they are reused. Is this the official Honda manual? > Yes. JT |
Re: Let's Talk Turkey --- Head Bolts 'n Stuff
z <gzuckier@snail-mail.net> wrote in
news:1177514332.933819.30090@s33g2000prh.googlegro ups.com: > On Apr 21, 10:16 pm, Grumpy AuContraire <Gru...@ExtraGrumpyville.com> > wrote: >> Tegger wrote: >> > Grumpy AuContraire <Gru...@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote in >> > news:YjuWh.65383 $VU4.13...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net: >> >> >>At any rate, any comments? >> >> > Is the head gasket steel sandwiched with teflon, or is it fiber >> > sandwiched with steel? >> >> ??? Appears to be fiber sandwiching steel. >> >> >> >> > And what kind of tightening spec does your manual specify? >> >> 25 ft lbs 1st round and 47 2nd round. Doesn't mention a thing about >> "one use" bolts. >> >> > > If the manual gives a torque spec and doesn't mention using new bolts, > I would assume they are reused. Is this the official Honda manual? > Yes. Honda is quite specific when bolts need to be replaced and not reused. -- Tegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ |
Re: Let's Talk Turkey --- Head Bolts 'n Stuff
z <gzuckier@snail-mail.net> wrote in
news:1177514332.933819.30090@s33g2000prh.googlegro ups.com: > On Apr 21, 10:16 pm, Grumpy AuContraire <Gru...@ExtraGrumpyville.com> > wrote: >> Tegger wrote: >> > Grumpy AuContraire <Gru...@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote in >> > news:YjuWh.65383 $VU4.13...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net: >> >> >>At any rate, any comments? >> >> > Is the head gasket steel sandwiched with teflon, or is it fiber >> > sandwiched with steel? >> >> ??? Appears to be fiber sandwiching steel. >> >> >> >> > And what kind of tightening spec does your manual specify? >> >> 25 ft lbs 1st round and 47 2nd round. Doesn't mention a thing about >> "one use" bolts. >> >> > > If the manual gives a torque spec and doesn't mention using new bolts, > I would assume they are reused. Is this the official Honda manual? > Yes. Honda is quite specific when bolts need to be replaced and not reused. -- Tegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ |
Re: Let's Talk Turkey --- Head Bolts 'n Stuff
Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>> If the manual gives a torque spec and doesn't mention using new bolts, >> I would assume they are reused. Is this the official Honda manual? >> > > Yes. > > JT If the factory service manual says nothing about needing to use new bolts then I would not worry about it. When torque to yield bolts are used the factory manuals normally are quite clear about the need for new ones. John |
Re: Let's Talk Turkey --- Head Bolts 'n Stuff
Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>> If the manual gives a torque spec and doesn't mention using new bolts, >> I would assume they are reused. Is this the official Honda manual? >> > > Yes. > > JT If the factory service manual says nothing about needing to use new bolts then I would not worry about it. When torque to yield bolts are used the factory manuals normally are quite clear about the need for new ones. John |
Re: Let's Talk Turkey --- Head Bolts 'n Stuff
John Horner wrote: > Grumpy AuContraire wrote: > >>> If the manual gives a torque spec and doesn't mention using new bolts, >>> I would assume they are reused. Is this the official Honda manual? >>> >> >> Yes. >> >> JT > > > If the factory service manual says nothing about needing to use new > bolts then I would not worry about it. When torque to yield bolts are > used the factory manuals normally are quite clear about the need for new > ones. > > John That's my conclusion. We'll find out soon... JT |
Re: Let's Talk Turkey --- Head Bolts 'n Stuff
John Horner wrote: > Grumpy AuContraire wrote: > >>> If the manual gives a torque spec and doesn't mention using new bolts, >>> I would assume they are reused. Is this the official Honda manual? >>> >> >> Yes. >> >> JT > > > If the factory service manual says nothing about needing to use new > bolts then I would not worry about it. When torque to yield bolts are > used the factory manuals normally are quite clear about the need for new > ones. > > John That's my conclusion. We'll find out soon... JT |
Re: Let's Talk Turkey --- Head Bolts 'n Stuff
Tegger wrote: > z <gzuckier@snail-mail.net> wrote in > news:1177514332.933819.30090@s33g2000prh.googlegro ups.com: > > >>On Apr 21, 10:16 pm, Grumpy AuContraire <Gru...@ExtraGrumpyville.com> >>wrote: >> >>>Tegger wrote: >>> >>>>Grumpy AuContraire <Gru...@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote in >>>>news:YjuWh.65383 $VU4.13...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net: >>> >>>>>At any rate, any comments? >>> >>>>Is the head gasket steel sandwiched with teflon, or is it fiber >>>>sandwiched with steel? >>> >>>??? Appears to be fiber sandwiching steel. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>And what kind of tightening spec does your manual specify? >>> >>>25 ft lbs 1st round and 47 2nd round. Doesn't mention a thing about >>>"one use" bolts. >>> >>> >> >>If the manual gives a torque spec and doesn't mention using new bolts, >>I would assume they are reused. Is this the official Honda manual? >> > > > > > Yes. > > Honda is quite specific when bolts need to be replaced and not reused. > It seems that way since nothing is mentioned about replacing bolts along with opinion of a couple of Honda guru's around here of which one was invovled in a lot of racing activity with Gen 1 & 2 Civics. I should have the whole shebang together by the end of next week. JT |
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