jim beam

On 01/13/2010 06:02 PM, Tony Harding wrote:
> On 01/10/10 19:48, Brian Smith wrote:
>> On 1/10/2010 8:43 PM, Dillon Pyron wrote:
>>>
>>> Errh, you're suggesting doing your oil at 3500 miles and the manual
>>> says to do it when the MM says so, which for most folks is around
>>> 5-7K. So, who's being overly conservative and who's tossing away
>>> money?
>>>
>>> Let's see: "I don't care what the manual says." So, as the others
>>> have said, you are doing research to support an already developed
>>> solution.
>>
>> There is nothing wrong with frequent oil changes and grease (for those
>> vehicles that have grease fittings). It is the cheapest form of
>> maintenance available.
>
> Really? What about the wasted oil which is still perfectly usable as an
> engine lubricant? Time? Money?
>
> So if I were really conservative regarding oil changes, I'd do it weekly
> or even daily. Anything wrong with that?
>
> You're either not keeping posted on modern engine lubrication or you
> reject info newer than "every 3,000 miles".
>
> <not a flame, BTW>
>

you know, with the current rash of "contributors" that like to talk, but
who don't actually /say/ anything, an argument of logic like that
utterly fails - multiple retards agreeing with each other seems to be
much more in vogue than bothering with facts or relevance.

Brian Smith

On 1/13/2010 10:02 PM, Tony Harding wrote:
>
> Really? What about the wasted oil which is still perfectly usable as an
> engine lubricant? Time? Money?

It's not wasted oil, nor money, nor time.

> So if I were really conservative regarding oil changes, I'd do it weekly
> or even daily. Anything wrong with that?

You may choose to do your vehicle's oil changes as frequently as you
see fit to do so, after all it is your vehicle and your money. There is
nothing wrong with you using your money in any way you wish.

> You're either not keeping posted on modern engine lubrication or you
> reject info newer than "every 3,000 miles".

I am well aware of "modern engine lubrication", but I choose to take
care of the vehicles under my care using a method that has been proven
to work well for decades. It is after all my money and my choice.

> <not a flame, BTW>

Not taken as one. :^)

Dave Kelsen

On 1/14/2010 4:22 AM Brian Smith spake these words of knowledge:

> On 1/13/2010 10:02 PM, Tony Harding wrote:
>>
>> Really? What about the wasted oil which is still perfectly usable as an
>> engine lubricant? Time? Money?
>
> It's not wasted oil, nor money, nor time.

How is it not wasted? Without getting in to any particular numbers with
respect to miles driven or time elapsed, the fact is that if you change
the oil more frequently than is necessary, or even helpful, it certainly
is wasted.


>> So if I were really conservative regarding oil changes, I'd do it weekly
>> or even daily. Anything wrong with that?
>
> You may choose to do your vehicle's oil changes as frequently as you
> see fit to do so, after all it is your vehicle and your money. There is
> nothing wrong with you using your money in any way you wish.

This is also wrong. You may choose to do so, and you have the right to
use your money any way you wish. But there is something wrong. You are
wasting oil. I'm not saying you should change. I agree with you in
that respect - do as you wish. But a person changing their oil weekly,
or even daily, is certainly wasting oil and money. They have a right to
do so, but don't kid yourself that there is nothing wrong.


RFT!!!
Dave Kelsen
--
"There are only two types of people I hate; Those that are intolerant of
other people's cultures, and the Dutch."

Brian Smith

On 1/14/2010 8:02 AM, Dave Kelsen wrote:
>
> How is it not wasted? Without getting in to any particular numbers with
> respect to miles driven or time elapsed, the fact is that if you change
> the oil more frequently than is necessary, or even helpful, it certainly
> is wasted.

How is it not wasted? Simply the regular changing of the engine's
lubrication is a good thing. I don't consider it wasted, nor does my
employer when we look at the bottom line on the fleet's maintenance
costs and vastly improved level of breakdowns and subsequent downtime,
as compared to the previous manager's numbers. IN regard to my own
personal vehicles, I have no qualms about changing the fluids based on
the mileage and time frame that I have decided gives the best return on
my investment.

> This is also wrong.

This is your opinion and as such has no basis on how or why I choose to
take care of the regular maintenance of any vehicles in my charge.

> You may choose to do so, and you have the right to
> use your money any way you wish. But there is something wrong. You are
> wasting oil. I'm not saying you should change. I agree with you in that
> respect - do as you wish. But a person changing their oil weekly, or
> even daily, is certainly wasting oil and money. They have a right to do
> so, but don't kid yourself that there is nothing wrong.

I'm not kidding myself in any way. How I manage my fleet and personal
vehicles has proven to be cost effective over the last four decades and
(no offence intended Dave), your opinion does not matter in this regard.

Brian

jim beam

On 01/14/2010 04:56 AM, Brian Smith wrote:
> On 1/14/2010 8:02 AM, Dave Kelsen wrote:
>>
>> How is it not wasted? Without getting in to any particular numbers with
>> respect to miles driven or time elapsed, the fact is that if you change
>> the oil more frequently than is necessary, or even helpful, it certainly
>> is wasted.
>
> How is it not wasted? Simply the regular changing of the engine's
> lubrication is a good thing.

no. read this:
http://www.swri.org/3pubs/IRD1999/03912699.htm


> I don't consider it wasted, nor does my
> employer when we look at the bottom line on the fleet's maintenance
> costs and vastly improved level of breakdowns and subsequent downtime,
> as compared to the previous manager's numbers.

you do oil analysis? doesn't sound like it. and when was the last time
anyone here saw a breakdown due to lubrication failure? you may be more
diligent about other aspects of maintenance, but too-frequent oil
changes are wasting money and time.


> IN regard to my own
> personal vehicles, I have no qualms about changing the fluids based on
> the mileage and time frame that I have decided gives the best return on
> my investment.

based on what analysis? unless you have numbers, you're no better than
a witch doctor.


>
>> This is also wrong.
>
> This is your opinion and as such has no basis on how or why I choose to
> take care of the regular maintenance of any vehicles in my charge.

where are your numbers?


>
>> You may choose to do so, and you have the right to
>> use your money any way you wish. But there is something wrong. You are
>> wasting oil. I'm not saying you should change. I agree with you in that
>> respect - do as you wish. But a person changing their oil weekly, or
>> even daily, is certainly wasting oil and money. They have a right to do
>> so, but don't kid yourself that there is nothing wrong.
>
> I'm not kidding myself in any way.

absent facts, you absolutely are.


> How I manage my fleet and personal
> vehicles has proven to be cost effective over the last four decades and
> (no offence intended Dave), your opinion does not matter in this regard.

a witch doctor can "heal" a broken leg by tying a sacrificed chicken to
it and immobilizing the patient. but it's the immobilization that heals
the break, not the chicken. absent facts and/or numbers, you're simply
living in a cave with a load of dead chicken carcasses.

Tony Harding

On 01/14/10 07:02, Dave Kelsen wrote:
> On 1/14/2010 4:22 AM Brian Smith spake these words of knowledge:
>
>> On 1/13/2010 10:02 PM, Tony Harding wrote:
>>>
>>> Really? What about the wasted oil which is still perfectly usable as an
>>> engine lubricant? Time? Money?
>>
>> It's not wasted oil, nor money, nor time.
>
> How is it not wasted? Without getting in to any particular numbers with
> respect to miles driven or time elapsed, the fact is that if you change
> the oil more frequently than is necessary, or even helpful, it certainly
> is wasted.
>
>
>>> So if I were really conservative regarding oil changes, I'd do it weekly
>>> or even daily. Anything wrong with that?
>>
>> You may choose to do your vehicle's oil changes as frequently as you
>> see fit to do so, after all it is your vehicle and your money. There
>> is nothing wrong with you using your money in any way you wish.
>
> This is also wrong. You may choose to do so, and you have the right to
> use your money any way you wish. But there is something wrong. You are
> wasting oil. I'm not saying you should change. I agree with you in that
> respect - do as you wish. But a person changing their oil weekly, or
> even daily, is certainly wasting oil and money. They have a right to do
> so, but don't kid yourself that there is nothing wrong.

Well put, Dave, thanks.

Tony Harding

On 01/14/10 05:22, Brian Smith wrote:
> On 1/13/2010 10:02 PM, Tony Harding wrote:
>>
>> Really? What about the wasted oil which is still perfectly usable as an
>> engine lubricant? Time? Money?
>
> It's not wasted oil, nor money, nor time.

How can all the still serviceable oil drained not be wasted?
>
>> So if I were really conservative regarding oil changes, I'd do it weekly
>> or even daily. Anything wrong with that?
>
> You may choose to do your vehicle's oil changes as frequently as you see
> fit to do so, after all it is your vehicle and your money. There is
> nothing wrong with you using your money in any way you wish.

I agree with you philosophically, i.e, I do what I want with my $$$, you
do what you want with yours, etc.; but we're subject to irrational
choices. I've lost the link from a couple of years ago, but there was a
study done showing that the ancient wisdom of changing oil every 3,000
miles was way too soon for modern engines and modern engine oil.

>> You're either not keeping posted on modern engine lubrication or you
>> reject info newer than "every 3,000 miles".
>
> I am well aware of "modern engine lubrication", but I choose to take
> care of the vehicles under my care using a method that has been proven
> to work well for decades. It is after all my money and my choice.

Quite so, but no proof you're not spending more than you have to,
throwing out/recycling perfectly usable engine oil or keeping your fleet
vehicles off the road more time than they require.

Tony Harding

On 01/14/10 09:25, jim beam wrote:
> On 01/14/2010 04:56 AM, Brian Smith wrote:
>> On 1/14/2010 8:02 AM, Dave Kelsen wrote:
>>>
>>> How is it not wasted? Without getting in to any particular numbers with
>>> respect to miles driven or time elapsed, the fact is that if you change
>>> the oil more frequently than is necessary, or even helpful, it certainly
>>> is wasted.
>>
>> How is it not wasted? Simply the regular changing of the engine's
>> lubrication is a good thing.
>
> no. read this:
> http://www.swri.org/3pubs/IRD1999/03912699.htm
>
>
>> I don't consider it wasted, nor does my
>> employer when we look at the bottom line on the fleet's maintenance
>> costs and vastly improved level of breakdowns and subsequent downtime,
>> as compared to the previous manager's numbers.
>
> you do oil analysis? doesn't sound like it. and when was the last time
> anyone here saw a breakdown due to lubrication failure? you may be more
> diligent about other aspects of maintenance, but too-frequent oil
> changes are wasting money and time.
>
>
>> IN regard to my own
>> personal vehicles, I have no qualms about changing the fluids based on
>> the mileage and time frame that I have decided gives the best return on
>> my investment.
>
> based on what analysis? unless you have numbers, you're no better than a
> witch doctor.

Thanks, Jim, in extending my change interval I've been sending samples
of engine oil to a lab for analysis. So far oil condition is good, no
signs of engine wear, etc. The one thing I do counter to the manual is
to change the engine air filter on my '03 Accord annually instead of
every other year.

jim

jim beam wrote:

>
> you do oil analysis? doesn't sound like it. and when was the last time
> anyone here saw a breakdown due to lubrication failure? you may be more
> diligent about other aspects of maintenance, but too-frequent oil
> changes are wasting money and time.

Posting on usenet is a waste of time and money also so wasting time and
money cant be the real issue.

` Do you worry about how often other people take a ****, or whether
they are washing their hands too often or that they are breathing too
fast.? These actions serve the same purpose as changing oil but for some
reason you are not constantly telling others how often they should be
engaging in these other activities that serve the same function of
cleansing the system. If someone said they change the air in their tires
every 3 months would you get all bent out of shape about it? This is a
serious mental deficiency some people have that they are completely and
totally obsessed with how often other people change oil.

In my opinion anybody who incessantly worries about other peoples oil
change habits are just perverted busy bodies.

>
> > IN regard to my own
> > personal vehicles, I have no qualms about changing the fluids based on
> > the mileage and time frame that I have decided gives the best return on
> > my investment.
>
> based on what analysis? unless you have numbers, you're no better than
> a witch doctor.

That is utter nonsense. Oil analysis is like reading tea leaves in the
bottom of a cup. Major engine manufacturers like Cummins say oil
analysis is of very little value in determining oil maintenance
schedules. The reasoning is that oil analysis only tells you how much
dirt is in the oil. But if the oil additives are depleted the oil will
hold less dirt and that is where extended oil changes can get you into
trouble. Oil analysis does not accurately provide the information needed
to determine engine longevity. According to Cummins the only way you are
going to know if your lubrication maintenance schedule has been
aggressive enough (or not aggressive enough) is at the end of the road
when you tear the engine down for an overhaul. Fleet mechanics that
maintain many engines get to see what works and what doesn't.



>
> >
> >> This is also wrong.
> >
> > This is your opinion and as such has no basis on how or why I choose to
> > take care of the regular maintenance of any vehicles in my charge.
>
> where are your numbers?

It is easy to determine if an engine has had the oil changed often
enough. Not so easy to exactly determine at what point it will make a
difference.


>
> >
> >> You may choose to do so, and you have the right to
> >> use your money any way you wish. But there is something wrong. You are
> >> wasting oil. I'm not saying you should change. I agree with you in that
> >> respect - do as you wish. But a person changing their oil weekly, or
> >> even daily, is certainly wasting oil and money. They have a right to do
> >> so, but don't kid yourself that there is nothing wrong.
> >
> > I'm not kidding myself in any way.
>
> absent facts, you absolutely are.

He has the same facts you do. He may be a lot smarter than you if he
realizes that no one has all the facts or can get all the facts.


>
> > How I manage my fleet and personal
> > vehicles has proven to be cost effective over the last four decades and
> > (no offence intended Dave), your opinion does not matter in this regard.
>
> a witch doctor can "heal" a broken leg by tying a sacrificed chicken to
> it and immobilizing the patient. but it's the immobilization that heals
> the break, not the chicken. absent facts and/or numbers, you're simply
> living in a cave with a load of dead chicken carcasses.

It would be you that is the ignorant one. Some people just don't
understand that you can't possibly predict all the consequences of every
action. The best you can do is play the odds.

I read recently in this newsgroup about some guy who had a large hole
burned in an exhaust valve. There is one and only one thing that can
cause a valve to burn like that and that is a chunk of carbon breaks
loose from inside the combustion chamber and just happens to be passing
through as the exhaust valve is closing. This is a rare occurrence that
a chunk of carbon gets trapped in a a exhaust valve but it does happen.
Is this something that is more likely to happen to someone who changes
their oil at 6000 miles compared to someone who changes at 3000 miles?
There is absolutely no doubt that will change the odds.

-jim

Brian Smith

On 1/14/2010 11:13 AM, Tony Harding wrote:
>
> How can all the still serviceable oil drained not be wasted?

It isn't considered "still serviceable" oil. It is used and then used
by others to fuel their shop furnace. So it is well used.

> I agree with you philosophically, i.e, I do what I want with my $$$, you
> do what you want with yours, etc.; but we're subject to irrational
> choices. I've lost the link from a couple of years ago, but there was a
> study done showing that the ancient wisdom of changing oil every 3,000
> miles was way too soon for modern engines and modern engine oil.

Mileage isn't the only factor involved when setting oil change
frequency. We have operating hours which come into play in the equation
as well.

> Quite so, but no proof you're not spending more than you have to,
> throwing out/recycling perfectly usable engine oil or keeping your fleet
> vehicles off the road more time than they require.

The proof is in the corporate books, which show that less money is
being spent on the maintenance of the fleet since I took over the
company's operation, than my predecessor's performance. The fleet is
serviced during the night shift, which keeps the fleet on the road
during the day when they are required to be there.

Greg

jim beam wrote:
> On 01/14/2010 04:56 AM, Brian Smith wrote:
>> On 1/14/2010 8:02 AM, Dave Kelsen wrote:
>>>
>>> How is it not wasted? Without getting in to any particular numbers with
>>> respect to miles driven or time elapsed, the fact is that if you change
>>> the oil more frequently than is necessary, or even helpful, it certainly
>>> is wasted.
>>
>> How is it not wasted? Simply the regular changing of the engine's
>> lubrication is a good thing.
>
> no. read this:
> http://www.swri.org/3pubs/IRD1999/03912699.htm


All this says is that it appears to take an unspecified time for some of
the anti-wear chemistry to 'activate.' They don't speculate, much less
offer data, regarding the time, temp, mileage, etc. required to do so.
It may take 20 miles, or 200. Depending on your driving habits and
conditions, changing your oil every day may indeed be counter
productive. Every 1000 miles? Maybe not.

jim beam

On 01/14/2010 04:57 PM, Greg wrote:
> jim beam wrote:
>> On 01/14/2010 04:56 AM, Brian Smith wrote:
>>> On 1/14/2010 8:02 AM, Dave Kelsen wrote:
>>>>
>>>> How is it not wasted? Without getting in to any particular numbers with
>>>> respect to miles driven or time elapsed, the fact is that if you change
>>>> the oil more frequently than is necessary, or even helpful, it
>>>> certainly
>>>> is wasted.
>>>
>>> How is it not wasted? Simply the regular changing of the engine's
>>> lubrication is a good thing.
>>
>> no. read this:
>> http://www.swri.org/3pubs/IRD1999/03912699.htm
>
>
> All this says is that it appears to take an unspecified time for some of
> the anti-wear chemistry to 'activate.' They don't speculate, much less
> offer data, regarding the time, temp, mileage, etc. required to do so.
> It may take 20 miles, or 200. Depending on your driving habits and
> conditions, changing your oil every day may indeed be counter
> productive. Every 1000 miles? Maybe not.

so why remain in ignorance? get oil analysis done! it's neither hard
nor expensive!

or to put it another way - you use the fuel gauge on your dash don't
you? it tells you how much gas you have in the tank doesn't it? wtf
wouldn't anyone want to know how much life they have left in the oil in
their multi-thousand dollar transportation device?

Elmo P. Shagnasty

In article <hiltvk02931@news5.newsguy.com>,
Tony Harding <tharding@newsguy.com> wrote:

> So if I were really conservative regarding oil changes, I'd do it weekly
> or even daily. Anything wrong with that?

No. You get to choose the line.

Elmo P. Shagnasty

In article <hincae0r78@news3.newsguy.com>,
Tony Harding <tharding@newsguy.com> wrote:

> >> Really? What about the wasted oil which is still perfectly usable as an
> >> engine lubricant? Time? Money?
> >
> > It's not wasted oil, nor money, nor time.
>
> How can all the still serviceable oil drained not be wasted?

well, you sell it to Jiffy Lube...

jim beam

On 01/14/2010 10:26 AM, jim wrote:
>
>
> jim beam wrote:
>
>>
>> you do oil analysis? doesn't sound like it. and when was the last time
>> anyone here saw a breakdown due to lubrication failure? you may be more
>> diligent about other aspects of maintenance, but too-frequent oil
>> changes are wasting money and time.
>
> Posting on usenet is a waste of time and money also so wasting time and
> money cant be the real issue.

you're right - the issue is someone polluting the knowledge pool with
witchcraft bullshit.


>
> ` Do you worry about how often other people take a ****, or whether
> they are washing their hands too often or that they are breathing too
> fast.? These actions serve the same purpose as changing oil but for some
> reason you are not constantly telling others how often they should be
> engaging in these other activities that serve the same function of
> cleansing the system. If someone said they change the air in their tires
> every 3 months would you get all bent out of shape about it? This is a
> serious mental deficiency some people have that they are completely and
> totally obsessed with how often other people change oil.

so why are you telling people you "save money" changing your oil so
often??? all the evidence contradicts you, not supports you.


>
> In my opinion anybody who incessantly worries about other peoples oil
> change habits are just perverted busy bodies.

by that metric, you're a goddamned hypocrite. you're preaching your
witchcraft about your oil change intervals so you're a perverted
busybody if you dare to contradict anyone else. not least because you
have no data to back up your position.



>
>>
>>> IN regard to my own
>>> personal vehicles, I have no qualms about changing the fluids based on
>>> the mileage and time frame that I have decided gives the best return on
>>> my investment.
>>
>> based on what analysis? unless you have numbers, you're no better than
>> a witch doctor.
>
> That is utter nonsense. Oil analysis is like reading tea leaves in the
> bottom of a cup.

eh? so when you change your "fleet" brake linings, do you simply do it
every 3000 miles? 10000 miles? or do you bother to observe actual wear
and change when the pad reaches a given limit? because that's what
you're doing with oil analysis - observing condition and replacing once
it's worn to the limit. replacing it out of superstition and fear is
ridiculous.


> Major engine manufacturers like Cummins say oil
> analysis is of very little value in determining oil maintenance
> schedules.

bullshit. cite your source.


> The reasoning is that oil analysis only tells you how much
> dirt is in the oil.

see, this is the reason you're so dismissive - you clearly don't
understand what it does!


> But if the oil additives are depleted the oil will
> hold less dirt and that is where extended oil changes can get you into
> trouble.

see above.


> Oil analysis does not accurately provide the information needed
> to determine engine longevity.

bullshit. you don't know what you're talking about.


> According to Cummins the only way you are
> going to know if your lubrication maintenance schedule has been
> aggressive enough (or not aggressive enough) is at the end of the road
> when you tear the engine down for an overhaul.

bullshit. the whole point of analysis is that it /does/ tell you what's
going on.


> Fleet mechanics that
> maintain many engines get to see what works and what doesn't.

yeah. and fleet mechanics that know what they're doing pay attention to
data sources life service manuals. similarly, fleet managers that know
their business get analysis done because it allows them to not only
ensure efficient maintenance, but also minimize expense!


>
>
>
>>
>>>
>>>> This is also wrong.
>>>
>>> This is your opinion and as such has no basis on how or why I choose to
>>> take care of the regular maintenance of any vehicles in my charge.
>>
>> where are your numbers?
>
> It is easy to determine if an engine has had the oil changed often
> enough. Not so easy to exactly determine at what point it will make a
> difference.

er, no. you're simply afraid that if you don't sacrifice chickens, your
leg will never heal.


>
>
>>
>>>
>>>> You may choose to do so, and you have the right to
>>>> use your money any way you wish. But there is something wrong. You are
>>>> wasting oil. I'm not saying you should change. I agree with you in that
>>>> respect - do as you wish. But a person changing their oil weekly, or
>>>> even daily, is certainly wasting oil and money. They have a right to do
>>>> so, but don't kid yourself that there is nothing wrong.
>>>
>>> I'm not kidding myself in any way.
>>
>> absent facts, you absolutely are.
>
> He has the same facts you do. He may be a lot smarter than you if he
> realizes that no one has all the facts or can get all the facts.

"no one has all the facts or can get all the facts"??? wow dude, that's
a classic. if everybody thought like you, you'd never be able to say
that because you wouldn't have a computer to say it on. unbelievable
ignorance.


>
>
>>
>>> How I manage my fleet and personal
>>> vehicles has proven to be cost effective over the last four decades and
>>> (no offence intended Dave), your opinion does not matter in this regard.
>>
>> a witch doctor can "heal" a broken leg by tying a sacrificed chicken to
>> it and immobilizing the patient. but it's the immobilization that heals
>> the break, not the chicken. absent facts and/or numbers, you're simply
>> living in a cave with a load of dead chicken carcasses.
>
> It would be you that is the ignorant one. Some people just don't
> understand that you can't possibly predict all the consequences of every
> action. The best you can do is play the odds.

witchcraft works!!!


>
> I read recently in this newsgroup about some guy who had a large hole
> burned in an exhaust valve.

that was me.

> There is one and only one thing that can
> cause a valve to burn like that and that is a chunk of carbon breaks
> loose from inside the combustion chamber and just happens to be passing
> through as the exhaust valve is closing.

bullshit. you clearly don't know what you're talking about. quite a
feat given that the thread you read actually explains the mechanisms
that cause this.

> This is a rare occurrence that
> a chunk of carbon gets trapped in a a exhaust valve but it does happen.
> Is this something that is more likely to happen to someone who changes
> their oil at 6000 miles compared to someone who changes at 3000 miles?
> There is absolutely no doubt that will change the odds.

oil changes affect valve burn??? dude, you need to either stop smoking
that you're smoking now, or you need to