Re: Octane Overkill
 

In article <1101848317.Jz0aCVvlooIblociTKf9mA@teranews>,
"Joe Lang" <wjablonski@trcsolutions.comREMove> wrote:

> using an octane over your requirements does not waste fuel. it
> does not decrease efficiancy or power or anything.

um, yes, it's less efficient.

Re: Octane Overkill
 

"Cleverlever" <cleverlever99@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3fffe09a.0411291847.134f3f5d@posting.google.c om...
> "Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in message
> news:<DNKdnZm-a6KEUzTcRVn-pA@sedona.net>...
>> High octane fuel is for high compression engines, to prevent detonation
>> (ping). Your owner's manual will tell you what grade to use - probably 87
>> octane. Rather than going to a premium grade (which, it's true, often has
>> higher detergency), stick with the recommended octane. Some brands have
>> more
>> detergents than others, and they advertise that. (I like Shell/Texaco and
>> Chevron.) I had a Nissan 300ZX that would get balky - the clutch would
>> start
>> to feel grabby - if I ran 76 in it for a couple months but would
>> straighten
>> right out about halfway through a tank of Texaco. My other cars never
>> seem
>> to care.
>>
>> We also have a Toyota Prius, and on the Prius newsgroup others have
>> warned
>> me it won't run right and will even set the "check engine" light if
>> premium
>> grades are used. (The Prius has what Toyota calls a "modified
>> Atkinson/Miller cycle" engine - it uses valve timing to tame the 13:1
>> expansion ratio to a variable compression ratio.)
>>
>> Mike
>
> Hey Mike
> I thought you might be interested in some test that were run with high
> octane E85 in a prius. Check out page 10 at
> http://www.creedproject.org/stream_v7n2.pdf and observe a 20% increase
> in power when the "Forbidden" fuel was tested.
> I have made a bunch of post at The Temple of VTEC about this subject.
> I post as cleverlever. You also might be interested in my patent
> 4,961,406 which demonstates how to change the burn rate of a given
> fuel at low rpm

An interesting link. Thanks!

My understanding is that octane is not specifically about burn rate, but
about ignition point. If the mixture ignites because of the heat of
compression, or if the compression heating is high enough that the reaction
propagates by the pressure front instead of the flame front, the fuel
mixture changes from a low explosive to a high explosive.
See http://www.howstuffworks.com/question90.htm

Mike

Re: Octane Overkill
 

"Cleverlever" <cleverlever99@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3fffe09a.0411291847.134f3f5d@posting.google.c om...
> "Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in message
> news:<DNKdnZm-a6KEUzTcRVn-pA@sedona.net>...
>> High octane fuel is for high compression engines, to prevent detonation
>> (ping). Your owner's manual will tell you what grade to use - probably 87
>> octane. Rather than going to a premium grade (which, it's true, often has
>> higher detergency), stick with the recommended octane. Some brands have
>> more
>> detergents than others, and they advertise that. (I like Shell/Texaco and
>> Chevron.) I had a Nissan 300ZX that would get balky - the clutch would
>> start
>> to feel grabby - if I ran 76 in it for a couple months but would
>> straighten
>> right out about halfway through a tank of Texaco. My other cars never
>> seem
>> to care.
>>
>> We also have a Toyota Prius, and on the Prius newsgroup others have
>> warned
>> me it won't run right and will even set the "check engine" light if
>> premium
>> grades are used. (The Prius has what Toyota calls a "modified
>> Atkinson/Miller cycle" engine - it uses valve timing to tame the 13:1
>> expansion ratio to a variable compression ratio.)
>>
>> Mike
>
> Hey Mike
> I thought you might be interested in some test that were run with high
> octane E85 in a prius. Check out page 10 at
> http://www.creedproject.org/stream_v7n2.pdf and observe a 20% increase
> in power when the "Forbidden" fuel was tested.
> I have made a bunch of post at The Temple of VTEC about this subject.
> I post as cleverlever. You also might be interested in my patent
> 4,961,406 which demonstates how to change the burn rate of a given
> fuel at low rpm

An interesting link. Thanks!

My understanding is that octane is not specifically about burn rate, but
about ignition point. If the mixture ignites because of the heat of
compression, or if the compression heating is high enough that the reaction
propagates by the pressure front instead of the flame front, the fuel
mixture changes from a low explosive to a high explosive.
See http://www.howstuffworks.com/question90.htm

Mike

Re: Octane Overkill
 

Joe Lang wrote:
> being tired and cranky,
> just do a deja news search with "Joe Lang" and octane.
>
> "Joe Lang" <wjablonski@trcsolutions.comREMove> wrote in message
> news:1101848317.Jz0aCVvlooIblociTKf9mA@teranews...
>
>>this is great! an expert named
>>"jim beam" bought a computer and figured out how to wire it up. once he
>>read something on the internet and provided the following nugget of BS for
>>us to enjoy.
>>

tell me more about combustion chamber design. as i understand it,
morphology influces gas flow, density, turbulence and pressure wave
propagation. this in turn does affect the stability of the resulting
cylinder charge on compression, hence octane matters. i'm /not/ an
expert on this stuff joe, but i do have some books on the subject, so
please, enlighten me further.

and please, let's keep the flame limited to the spark-induced variety.

Re: Octane Overkill
 

Joe Lang wrote:
> being tired and cranky,
> just do a deja news search with "Joe Lang" and octane.
>
> "Joe Lang" <wjablonski@trcsolutions.comREMove> wrote in message
> news:1101848317.Jz0aCVvlooIblociTKf9mA@teranews...
>
>>this is great! an expert named
>>"jim beam" bought a computer and figured out how to wire it up. once he
>>read something on the internet and provided the following nugget of BS for
>>us to enjoy.
>>

tell me more about combustion chamber design. as i understand it,
morphology influces gas flow, density, turbulence and pressure wave
propagation. this in turn does affect the stability of the resulting
cylinder charge on compression, hence octane matters. i'm /not/ an
expert on this stuff joe, but i do have some books on the subject, so
please, enlighten me further.

and please, let's keep the flame limited to the spark-induced variety.

Re: Octane Overkill
 

Thanx for all the advice, folks. I appreciate it. I'll vote for saving
money and stick with regular unleaded (87 octane) from now on. On this
note, I have one other question: Does gasoline lose its potency if it sits
for awhile? The reason I ask is because I notice that when my tank runs
almost on "E" and I refuel, my car seems to be more responsive and run a
little smoother. Does a fuller tank cause better fuel delivery somehow, or
what? (I'm thinking the level of fuel in the tank shouldn't matter...that's
what a fuel pressure regulator is for...to keep the fuel pressure constant)
Why does it seem to run a little better right after I refuel, regardless of
brand of gas?

Thanks again! :-)

Jonathan

Re: Octane Overkill
 

Thanx for all the advice, folks. I appreciate it. I'll vote for saving
money and stick with regular unleaded (87 octane) from now on. On this
note, I have one other question: Does gasoline lose its potency if it sits
for awhile? The reason I ask is because I notice that when my tank runs
almost on "E" and I refuel, my car seems to be more responsive and run a
little smoother. Does a fuller tank cause better fuel delivery somehow, or
what? (I'm thinking the level of fuel in the tank shouldn't matter...that's
what a fuel pressure regulator is for...to keep the fuel pressure constant)
Why does it seem to run a little better right after I refuel, regardless of
brand of gas?

Thanks again! :-)

Jonathan

Re: Octane Overkill
 

In article <WV9rd.23969$Mu3.1347292@twister.southeast.rr.com> ,
"K-town" <jdu52580@carolina.stopspam.rr.com> wrote:

> Does gasoline lose its potency if it sits
> for awhile? The reason I ask is because I notice that when my tank runs
> almost on "E" and I refuel, my car seems to be more responsive and run a
> little smoother. Does a fuller tank cause better fuel delivery somehow, or
> what? (I'm thinking the level of fuel in the tank shouldn't matter...that's
> what a fuel pressure regulator is for...to keep the fuel pressure constant)
> Why does it seem to run a little better right after I refuel, regardless of
> brand of gas?

If you're running your tank out every week or so like normal drivers,
gasoline doesn't lose anything. It's in your mind.

If you're filling up every 6 months or so, there could be a problem.
Gas does get old.

Re: Octane Overkill
 

In article <WV9rd.23969$Mu3.1347292@twister.southeast.rr.com> ,
"K-town" <jdu52580@carolina.stopspam.rr.com> wrote:

> Does gasoline lose its potency if it sits
> for awhile? The reason I ask is because I notice that when my tank runs
> almost on "E" and I refuel, my car seems to be more responsive and run a
> little smoother. Does a fuller tank cause better fuel delivery somehow, or
> what? (I'm thinking the level of fuel in the tank shouldn't matter...that's
> what a fuel pressure regulator is for...to keep the fuel pressure constant)
> Why does it seem to run a little better right after I refuel, regardless of
> brand of gas?

If you're running your tank out every week or so like normal drivers,
gasoline doesn't lose anything. It's in your mind.

If you're filling up every 6 months or so, there could be a problem.
Gas does get old.

Re: Octane Overkill
 

"K-town" <jdu52580@carolina.stopspam.rr.com> wrote in message
news:WV9rd.23969$Mu3.1347292@twister.southeast.rr. com...
> Thanx for all the advice, folks. I appreciate it. I'll vote for saving
> money and stick with regular unleaded (87 octane) from now on. On this
> note, I have one other question:

> Does gasoline lose its potency if it sits
> for awhile?

yes. it will sour, turning into a substance not unlike varnish. but this
can take a long time. stale gas is a problem when you take your snowblower
out after 10 months of dormancy.

>The reason I ask is because I notice that when my tank runs
> almost on "E" and I refuel, my car seems to be more responsive and run a
> little smoother. Does a fuller tank cause better fuel delivery somehow,
or
> what? (I'm thinking the level of fuel in the tank shouldn't
matter...that's
> what a fuel pressure regulator is for...to keep the fuel pressure
constant)
> Why does it seem to run a little better right after I refuel, regardless
of
> brand of gas?

it just seems to run better. at least as far as the gas goes. you might
other motor issues though. i cant think of any, but as far as the gasoline
goes, it is not going to cause any difference between weekly fill ups.

> Thanks again! :-)
>
> Jonathan
>
>

Re: Octane Overkill
 

"K-town" <jdu52580@carolina.stopspam.rr.com> wrote in message
news:WV9rd.23969$Mu3.1347292@twister.southeast.rr. com...
> Thanx for all the advice, folks. I appreciate it. I'll vote for saving
> money and stick with regular unleaded (87 octane) from now on. On this
> note, I have one other question:

> Does gasoline lose its potency if it sits
> for awhile?

yes. it will sour, turning into a substance not unlike varnish. but this
can take a long time. stale gas is a problem when you take your snowblower
out after 10 months of dormancy.

>The reason I ask is because I notice that when my tank runs
> almost on "E" and I refuel, my car seems to be more responsive and run a
> little smoother. Does a fuller tank cause better fuel delivery somehow,
or
> what? (I'm thinking the level of fuel in the tank shouldn't
matter...that's
> what a fuel pressure regulator is for...to keep the fuel pressure
constant)
> Why does it seem to run a little better right after I refuel, regardless
of
> brand of gas?

it just seems to run better. at least as far as the gas goes. you might
other motor issues though. i cant think of any, but as far as the gasoline
goes, it is not going to cause any difference between weekly fill ups.

> Thanks again! :-)
>
> Jonathan
>
>

Re: Octane Overkill
 

am i not supposed to flame this gentleman shagnasty?

please do tell us all. you can be as adamant as you want but it wont make
you right. i am anxiously awaiting you to insert foot deeply into mouth.

"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
news:elmop-D0A9CD.17291930112004@text.usenetserver.com...
> In article <1101848317.Jz0aCVvlooIblociTKf9mA@teranews>,
> "Joe Lang" <wjablonski@trcsolutions.comREMove> wrote:
>
> > using an octane over your requirements does not waste fuel. it
> > does not decrease efficiancy or power or anything.
>
> um, yes, it's less efficient.
>

Re: Octane Overkill
 

am i not supposed to flame this gentleman shagnasty?

please do tell us all. you can be as adamant as you want but it wont make
you right. i am anxiously awaiting you to insert foot deeply into mouth.

"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
news:elmop-D0A9CD.17291930112004@text.usenetserver.com...
> In article <1101848317.Jz0aCVvlooIblociTKf9mA@teranews>,
> "Joe Lang" <wjablonski@trcsolutions.comREMove> wrote:
>
> > using an octane over your requirements does not waste fuel. it
> > does not decrease efficiancy or power or anything.
>
> um, yes, it's less efficient.
>

Re: Octane Overkill
 

first, i aplogize. there is alot of bs about octane on the NG's, and it
seems nobody can bother to study the friggin topic, just rehash what some
lunatic once said. and since i am generally not any more informed than the
usual newspaper reading kind, i do get a bit peeved when the topic is about
something i actually know very well.



> tell me more about combustion chamber design. as i understand it,
> morphology influces gas flow, density, turbulence and pressure wave
> propagation. this in turn does affect the stability of the resulting
> cylinder charge on compression, hence octane matters.

im no mechanical engineer. i dont think we disagree on this point. it is
important to consider that there are variables as to how knock will be
induced. octane rating of fuel and compression are what determine knock,
and to a much lesser extent engine design. i do not think that there is
much room left in the combustion chamber design department for improvements
to be made. assume that the theoretical engine has been designed with an
efficient combustion chamber. the topic is secondary in modern engines, and
we have already spent too much time discussing it.

>i'm /not/ an
> expert on this stuff joe, but i do have some books on the subject, so
> please, enlighten me further.

it is a big topic, octane and knock. but this is not the most complex
science ever studied. review some of the work done by thomas midgely.
gasoline has been researched to death. there is no way in hell anyone is
ever going to make an observation about gasoline and post it on the internet
that has not already been said 1000 times before at a refinery lab.

> and please, let's keep the flame limited to the spark-induced variety.

for you, sure.

Re: Octane Overkill
 

first, i aplogize. there is alot of bs about octane on the NG's, and it
seems nobody can bother to study the friggin topic, just rehash what some
lunatic once said. and since i am generally not any more informed than the
usual newspaper reading kind, i do get a bit peeved when the topic is about
something i actually know very well.



> tell me more about combustion chamber design. as i understand it,
> morphology influces gas flow, density, turbulence and pressure wave
> propagation. this in turn does affect the stability of the resulting
> cylinder charge on compression, hence octane matters.

im no mechanical engineer. i dont think we disagree on this point. it is
important to consider that there are variables as to how knock will be
induced. octane rating of fuel and compression are what determine knock,
and to a much lesser extent engine design. i do not think that there is
much room left in the combustion chamber design department for improvements
to be made. assume that the theoretical engine has been designed with an
efficient combustion chamber. the topic is secondary in modern engines, and
we have already spent too much time discussing it.

>i'm /not/ an
> expert on this stuff joe, but i do have some books on the subject, so
> please, enlighten me further.

it is a big topic, octane and knock. but this is not the most complex
science ever studied. review some of the work done by thomas midgely.
gasoline has been researched to death. there is no way in hell anyone is
ever going to make an observation about gasoline and post it on the internet
that has not already been said 1000 times before at a refinery lab.

> and please, let's keep the flame limited to the spark-induced variety.

for you, sure.