Re: oily spark plugs
 

Is this somthing I should get fixed asap? The electrodes on the spark
plug seem to not have any oil on them.


Eric wrote:
> Colisto wrote:
>
>>That gasket is towards the top of where you put the spark plug is not
>>leaking. I looked down and there is a crease I can see about four inches
>>down and it is leaking. What is that gasket called? I assume there is is
>>gasket there. Gasket B is the top one I think.
>
>
> Those are the o-rings that I referred to in my earlier post. They are the
> parts labeled #16 & #17 in this diagram http://tinyurl.com/aby5j. The
> diagram only shows two of the o-rings but there are a total of three #16s
> and one of #17 that are needed. As I noted in my earlier post, they're not
> a project for beginners.
>
> Eric

Re: oily spark plugs
 

Colisto <dunkacon@nowhere.com> wrote in news:Qwl0f.856$yS6.347@clgrps12:

> Is this somthing I should get fixed asap?


It's not a panic, but if you leave it, the spark plug tube will eventually
get pretty goopy and gungy inside, and may interfere with proper tightening
of new plugs.

If you like, you can just swab out the spark plug tube (plug in place!)
each time you do a valve adjustment (once a year is a good idea). Or more
often than that if you leave the valve cover on, and just unplug the spark
plug wires. You can get a piece of wire inside the tube with some terry
cloth taped to the end like a big Q-Tip, and swab out the oil.


> The electrodes on the spark
> plug seem to not have any oil on them.


If any gets on them, it will get burned off. It takes quite a bit of oil
entering the combustion chamber for the electrodes to stay wet with oil.



--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: oily spark plugs
 

Colisto wrote:
>
> Is this somthing I should get fixed asap? The electrodes on the spark
> plug seem to not have any oil on them.
>

If the oil level in the spark plug tubes gets high enough for an extended
period of time, then you run the risk of damaging the spark plug wires. Oil
has a tendency to turn some rubber into mush. There is also a risk of
causing a misfire which would cause rough running and likely send partially
unburned gas to the catalytic converter. This in turn would cause it to
overheat and shorten its life span. Of course, you can avoid these risks by
following one of two paths. Either get the o-rings replaced, which might
cost around $300, or periodically remove the oil from the affected spark
plug tubes. I would remove the oil by swabbing it out with one of those
heavy duty blue paper towels (without removing the spark plugs). Then drive
the car for a week or two and recheck it. Depending on the status of the
o-rings, you might find that you need to remove the oil once a month or so.

If you do decide to get the o-rings replaced, then wait until you can
combine the labor with other services. For example, I would recommend
waiting until you need to get a major service with a valve adjustment. In
addition, you may also want to wait until you need to get the timing belt
and water pump replaced. Combining all three of these repair jobs would be
ideal since the valves will need to be adjusted and the timing belt will
likely need to be detensioned before the cam towers are removed. It would
also be a good idea to replace the cam seal and this is usually pretty
standard on a timing belt job. A reputable shop will discount the labor on
each of these tasks somewhat since there is overlapping work that needs to
be performed.

Eric

Re: oily spark plugs
 

"Eric" <say.no@spam.now> wrote
> there are usually o-rings between the cam towers and the head
> and these can also leak oil into the spark plug tubes. I needed to
replace
> these on my '88 Civic. They weren't too difficult but it's not a project
> for beginners.

Eric,

Can you outline what has to be removed to get to these gaskets? Should I use
some sort of modified, manual procedure for removing the camshaft? Also, I
am not quite clear on what the "cam tower" is, even after looking at the
drawings.

It seems to me these (failed, lower gaskets) are more than likely why I am
getting oil in my 91 Civic's spark plug tubes, as well.

I replaced the camshaft seal (and crankshaft seal, which included taking off
the timing belt) last year, so I have that experience under my belt.

Re: oily spark plugs
 

Alright, thanks for all the good info guys. I'll just keep and eye on it
for a while until I can warrant spending the money on it.


Eric wrote:
> Colisto wrote:
>
>>Is this somthing I should get fixed asap? The electrodes on the spark
>>plug seem to not have any oil on them.
>>
>
>
> If the oil level in the spark plug tubes gets high enough for an extended
> period of time, then you run the risk of damaging the spark plug wires. Oil
> has a tendency to turn some rubber into mush. There is also a risk of
> causing a misfire which would cause rough running and likely send partially
> unburned gas to the catalytic converter. This in turn would cause it to
> overheat and shorten its life span. Of course, you can avoid these risks by
> following one of two paths. Either get the o-rings replaced, which might
> cost around $300, or periodically remove the oil from the affected spark
> plug tubes. I would remove the oil by swabbing it out with one of those
> heavy duty blue paper towels (without removing the spark plugs). Then drive
> the car for a week or two and recheck it. Depending on the status of the
> o-rings, you might find that you need to remove the oil once a month or so.
>
> If you do decide to get the o-rings replaced, then wait until you can
> combine the labor with other services. For example, I would recommend
> waiting until you need to get a major service with a valve adjustment. In
> addition, you may also want to wait until you need to get the timing belt
> and water pump replaced. Combining all three of these repair jobs would be
> ideal since the valves will need to be adjusted and the timing belt will
> likely need to be detensioned before the cam towers are removed. It would
> also be a good idea to replace the cam seal and this is usually pretty
> standard on a timing belt job. A reputable shop will discount the labor on
> each of these tasks somewhat since there is overlapping work that needs to
> be performed.
>
> Eric

Re: oily spark plugs
 

Elle wrote:
>
> "Eric" <say.no@spam.now> wrote
> > there are usually o-rings between the cam towers and the head
> > and these can also leak oil into the spark plug tubes. I needed to
> > replace these on my '88 Civic. They weren't too difficult but it's not
> > a project for beginners.
>
> Eric,
>
> Can you outline what has to be removed to get to these gaskets? Should I
> use some sort of modified, manual procedure for removing the camshaft?

I'm not sure what you mean by the above statement.

> Also, I am not quite clear on what the "cam tower" is, even after looking
> at the drawings.

If you have to ask, then ...

> It seems to me these (failed, lower gaskets) are more than likely why I am
> getting oil in my 91 Civic's spark plug tubes, as well.
>
> I replaced the camshaft seal (and crankshaft seal, which included taking
> off the timing belt) last year, so I have that experience under my belt.

Well, if you really want to bite into this project, then you can follow the
procedures in the factory service manual. If you don't have one specific
for your car, then you can get one from http://www.helminc.com. If you
don't have one and don't wish to invest in what I consider to be a basic
tool for servicing your car, then you can follow some of the procedures
outlined for other models available from
http://www.honda.co.uk/owner/workshopmanuals2.html. The manual for the
'95-'97 Civic is pretty close. Here's the page for removal
http://tinyurl.com/cccll and here's the page for installation
http://tinyurl.com/cvwjg. Some additional notes: the removal page does not
describe it well but when it indicates to loosen the valve adjusting screws
I've found it best to loosen them to the point where the bottom of the
adjusting screw is flush with the bottom of the rocker arm, furthermore, on
installation ignore the information about the oil control orifice. On the
'91 Civic this orifice is in the block between the block and cylinder head.
Lastly, if you're willing to jump through the necessary hoops (you must
register and provide a valid email address), then
http://www.hondahookup.com/manuals/ has a manual available listed as being
for an '88-'90 Civic. I haven't used this manual so I know nothing about
the quality of the information it it.

Eric

Re: oily spark plugs
 

"Eric" <say.no@spam.now> wrote
> Elle wrote:
> >
> > "Eric" <say.no@spam.now> wrote
> > > there are usually o-rings between the cam towers and the head
> > > and these can also leak oil into the spark plug tubes. I needed to
> > > replace these on my '88 Civic. They weren't too difficult but it's
not
> > > a project for beginners.
> >
> > Eric,
> >
> > Can you outline what has to be removed to get to these gaskets? Should I
> > use some sort of modified, manual procedure for removing the camshaft?
>
> I'm not sure what you mean by the above statement.

I meant should I go to a 91 Honda Civic manual and look up the procedure for
removing the camshaft, rocker arms, etc., then come up with some steps of my
own for getting at these seals.

Which is exactly what you ended up advising in your "response."

> > Also, I am not quite clear on what the "cam tower" is, even after
looking
> > at the drawings.
>
> If you have to ask, then ...

I checked Majestic's online parts site. I checked my 91 Civic's Chilton's
manual. I did not find a "cam tower" listed in either. Nor do I see it
listed in the pdf file url below from the UK site.

I know what a cam is. I know what a camshaft is. I suppose a "cam tower" is
the whole assembly or its supports.

But please don't trouble yourself in answering a question from someone
honest, trying to learn. That's not the purpose of newsgroups.

> The manual for the
> '95-'97 Civic is pretty close. Here's the page for removal
> http://tinyurl.com/cccll

Corrupted; doesn't work.

> and here's the page for installation
> http://tinyurl.com/cvwjg.

I have a 91 Civic Chilton's manual (which I use a lot and duplicates much of
Helm) that covers camshaft/rocker arms etc. removal and installation.

Thanks, and I promise to be a better teacher than you.

Re: oily spark plugs
 

"Elle" <elle_navorski@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote in
news:aoY0f.3404$4h2.2827@newsread3.news.pas.earthl ink.net:

> "Eric" <say.no@spam.now> wrote

>
>>> Also, I am not quite clear on what the "cam tower" is, even after
>>> looking at the drawings.
>>
>>
>> If you have to ask, then ...
>
> I checked Majestic's online parts site. I checked my 91 Civic's
> Chilton's manual. I did not find a "cam tower" listed in either. Nor
> do I see it listed in the pdf file url below from the UK site.
>
> I know what a cam is. I know what a camshaft is. I suppose a "cam
> tower" is the whole assembly or its supports.



I have the Helm manual for the '92-'95 Civic.

As near as I can tell, the D15B's camshaft is central to (and under) two
rocker arms, which are held by castings bolted to the head. Honda calls
these castings "cam holders". The rocker arms pass through these cam
holders. These are the parts Eric is calling the "cam towers". They're held
in place by three 8mm bolts.

The cam's holders have large holes in them at one end that the spark plugs
pass through on their way to their threads in the head. Since the cam
holders are bolted to the head, there is necessarily a seam where they
meet, and thus the gasket in question.

There are six "cam holders". The middle four have the spark plug holes.

If you remove the bolts on all the cam holders, you will also release the
rocker arms themselves. Essentially, to replace the gaskets under the cam
holders, you need to unbolt and remove the cam holders. I can't tell from
here, but it looks like you'd end up releasing the camshaft as well.

I've taken the liberty of extracting one page from my manual:
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/..._arm_parts.pdf


--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: oily spark plugs
 

"Elle" <elle_navorski@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:aoY0f.3404$4h2.2827@newsread3.news.pas.earthl ink.net...
> "Eric" <say.no@spam.now> wrote
>> The manual for the
>> '95-'97 Civic is pretty close. Here's the page for removal
>> http://tinyurl.com/cccll
>
> Corrupted; doesn't work.
>
It worked for me and brought up
http://www.honda.co.uk/owner/CivicManual/pdf/6-36.pdf

Mike

Re: oily spark plugs
 

"Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote
> "Elle" <elle_navorski@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote
> > "Eric" <say.no@spam.now> wrote
> >> The manual for the
> >> '95-'97 Civic is pretty close. Here's the page for removal
> >> http://tinyurl.com/cccll
> >
> > Corrupted; doesn't work.
> >
> It worked for me and brought up
> http://www.honda.co.uk/owner/CivicManual/pdf/6-36.pdf

Huh. Still doesn't work here at my computer.

No matter. Autozone's free repair guides and my Chilton's have it for my 91
Civic.

Thanks.

Re: oily spark plugs
 

"TeGGeR®" wrote:
>
> If you remove the bolts on all the cam holders, you will also release the
> rocker arms themselves. Essentially, to replace the gaskets under the cam
> holders, you need to unbolt and remove the cam holders. I can't tell from
> here, but it looks like you'd end up releasing the camshaft as well.
>

Yes, the trick is to not remove the bolts, just undo them. Afterwards,
remove the assembly complete with the bolts in place. The bolts will hold
it together so that you don't wind up having to deal with individual rocker
arms, shafts, and springs.

Eric

Re: oily spark plugs
 

Elle wrote:
>
> > The manual for the '95-'97 Civic is pretty close. Here's the page for
> > removal http://tinyurl.com/cccll
>
> Corrupted; doesn't work.
>

It works on my computer using Mozilla 1.7.11 and Acrobat 4.

Re: oily spark plugs
 

Thanks for the intelligent explanation. It's making a lot more sense now, as
follows:

The step-by-step 1991 Civic Chilton and Autozone written instructions call
these "camshaft holders" but on the 1991 Civic drawing, they are called
"bearing caps." They look exactly the same in the two drawings (the 1992's
and the 1991's) but just use two different names, for some reason.

There are six "camshaft holders/bearing caps" altogether, with according to
Majestic and like you say, three 8 mm bolts for the four middle "camshaft
holders" (or "bearing caps"), and two bolts each for the end ones. I
couldn't actually find the camshaft holders/bearing caps listed at
Majestic's site, though I'm pretty sure a drawing of them appears under
"cylinder head."

The instructions for removing the rocker arms/shafts likewise say to keep
the "rocker arm bolts" in place to hold the assembly together.

Obviously once I get under the valve cover more of this will make sense, but
I wanted to be prepared. I haven't messed much with things under there,
apart from putting in the new camshaft seal yada last year and checking the
valve lash once also about a year ago.

Thanks again. I hope to start on this before the end of the month and may
post an update. I am pretty certain these lower spark plug tube gaskets are
why a oil is accumulating in two or three of my 1991 Civic's spark plug
tubes. It's not more than a tablespoon every six months, it seems, but I
don't like it, and I want to keep the car... you know, "another five years."

"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote
> "Elle" <elle_navorski@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote
> > "Eric" <say.no@spam.now> wrote
>
> >
> >>> Also, I am not quite clear on what the "cam tower" is, even after
> >>> looking at the drawings.
> >>
> >>
> >> If you have to ask, then ...
> >
> > I checked Majestic's online parts site. I checked my 91 Civic's
> > Chilton's manual. I did not find a "cam tower" listed in either. Nor
> > do I see it listed in the pdf file url below from the UK site.
> >
> > I know what a cam is. I know what a camshaft is. I suppose a "cam
> > tower" is the whole assembly or its supports.
>
>
>
> I have the Helm manual for the '92-'95 Civic.
>
> As near as I can tell, the D15B's camshaft is central to (and under) two
> rocker arms, which are held by castings bolted to the head. Honda calls
> these castings "cam holders". The rocker arms pass through these cam
> holders. These are the parts Eric is calling the "cam towers". They're
held
> in place by three 8mm bolts.
>
> The cam's holders have large holes in them at one end that the spark plugs
> pass through on their way to their threads in the head. Since the cam
> holders are bolted to the head, there is necessarily a seam where they
> meet, and thus the gasket in question.
>
> There are six "cam holders". The middle four have the spark plug holes.
>
> If you remove the bolts on all the cam holders, you will also release the
> rocker arms themselves. Essentially, to replace the gaskets under the cam
> holders, you need to unbolt and remove the cam holders. I can't tell from
> here, but it looks like you'd end up releasing the camshaft as well.
>
> I've taken the liberty of extracting one page from my manual:
> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/..._arm_parts.pdf

Re: oily spark plugs
 

"Elle" <elle_navorski@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote in
news:C021f.7469$oc.6182@newsread2.news.pas.earthli nk.net:

> Thanks for the intelligent explanation. It's making a lot more sense
> now, as follows:
>


Another thing to keep in mind: Camshaft distortion.

If undoing the "cam holders" ends up releasing the camshaft as well, you'll
have to be careful to undo the bolts evenly all around, to prevent uneven
loading on the camshaft, which may bend it. Those valve springs are awfully
strong.

Good luck.

As an aside, I notice the D15Z engine uses Toyota-like tubes set into the
head for the spark plug wells, which would eliminate the problem the D15B
has.


--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: oily spark plugs
 

"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote
> Another thing to keep in mind: Camshaft distortion.
>
> If undoing the "cam holders" ends up releasing the camshaft as well,
you'll
> have to be careful to undo the bolts evenly all around, to prevent uneven
> loading on the camshaft, which may bend it. Those valve springs are
awfully
> strong.

Okay. Given the subsequent installation torquing sequence for the "cam
holders/bearing caps," I can see what you're gettin at.

> Good luck.

Thanks.

> As an aside, I notice the D15Z engine uses Toyota-like tubes set into the
> head for the spark plug wells, which would eliminate the problem the D15B
> has.

For the 96-2000 Civics (which appear to use a D15Z engine), Majestic online
parts site indeed does not show these gaskets (between cam holder and
cylinder head). The tubes extend much further, so to speak, as you know but
for the record.