Re: What about the mileage!?!?!?!?!
 

"Andrew Stephenson" <ames@deltrak.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1171821912snz@deltrak.demon.co.uk...
> In article <rh2ht29qdd7068bbkge1qgvb7v9r0sc28d@4ax.com>
> RgEmMcOgVrEew@mindspring.com "Gordon McGrew" writes:
>
>> [...]
>>
>> But you are neglecting the factors which make hybrids more
>> efficient:
>>
>> The electrical system provides a means of recovering kinetic
>> energy during braking. The energy which would have gone into
>> heating the brake rotors (and wearing out the pads) is
>> converted to energy stored in the battery. [...]
>
> Most anti-hybrid kooks are narrowband thinkers. They don't like
> to see the world as a web of influences. A simple straight line
> is about as complex as they can handle. For example, your point
> about the regeneration system sparing the vehicle's brakes ought
> to suggest to them another indirect saving: less wear on brakes;
> longer intervals between replacements; less use of materials and
> energy in their manufacture/replacement; and lower bills. Yet I
> live in hope that it'll click for them, one day.
> --
> Andrew Stephenson
>

The engine isn't subjected to the strains of differing torque. The motor
handles that load quite nicely. Extra fuel usually needed (remember the
accelerator pump?) when lightly stepping up the speed is nicely handled by
the motor instead.

If someone wanted to get off the starting line as fast as I can they better
re-do their fuel economy calculations and stop lying through the teeth about
that one-time 36 mpg fillup. Man! You might think us hybrid owners just fell
off the alien turnip truck.
mark_

Re: What about the mileage!?!?!?!?!
 

"You guess" <jackj^remove^180@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:1sogt2d22bgfhisiksaapvu88dnls9itro@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 07:14:04 -0700, "Michael Pardee"
> <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>Hybrids today get their main efficiency improvement from not using the
>>engine as much to do ludicrously inefficient work. As the OP noted, the
>>engine is still used at times that don't make a lot of sense. Blame that
>>on
>>the infancy of the technology.
>
> No, it uses the IC engine more. The IC engine powers the car at all
> times, even when it isn't running. If the IC engine isn't running,
> the car is using energy produced by the IC engine at some time in the
> past and stored in the batteries.
>>
>>> Your hybrid car is a political solution to a political problem. Your
>>> car has to haul around heavy batteries, a big generator to recharge
>>> the batteries and all the electronics needed to control the electric
>>> motor, the charge going into the batteries and monitoring the
>>> condition of the batteries. Plus it STILL has a gas IC engine and
>>> fuel tank to haul around.
>>>
>>
>>Actually, it is an engineering solution to a fundamental conceptual
>>problem.
>>Even as a teenager learning about cars I was struck by the horrible
>>inefficiencies of using large engines to put out negligible power for
>>nearly
>>the entire range of the car's operation. But it was the '60s and gas was
>>cheap. When I first heard about hybrid power trains (around 20 years ago)
>>I
>>immediately recognized them as the solution to the century-old problem.
>>
>>>
>>> There is no way it can get the same over-all mileage and still have
>>> the same performance as a gasoline-only car.
>>>
>>
>>Ah - that's where you are 100% wrong. One of the central characteristics
>>of
>>hybridization is that the acceleration performance is independent of the
>>power plant capacity, just as a conventional power train's performance is
>>independent of fuel tank size. The engine can be off or just plain dead
>>without affecting the immediate performance of a serial hybrid (none in
>>production yet, sadly). A serial hybrid is essentially an electric car
>>with
>>a charging system on-board. Right now the technology exists to build a
>>serial hybrid that will give the hottest conventional power trains a run
>>for
>>their money; a Tesla (http://tinyurl.com/n52mh) with a small generator
>>tucked somewhere would qualify. Honda (http://tinyurl.com/y96x8o) and
>>Toyota
>>(http://tinyurl.com/2w379) have both demonstrated concept cars that
>>clearly
>>fall in the high performance range and deliver fuel economy in the miser
>>range - 400 hp and an estimated 40 mpg for the parallel hybrid Honda and
>>400
>>hp and 32 mpg for the series-parallel hybrid Toyota. Honda engineers
>>pointed
>>out in the Popular Mechanics article back then that using electrics for
>>torque provides off-the-line acceleration equivalent to a 600 hp
>>conventional power train. Toyota simply mentions 0-60 mph in 4 seconds.
>
> You're confusing acceleration performance with efficiency.
>>

What I am pointing out is that efficiency has increased along with
performance - that is a basic characteristic of hybrid cars. Your premise
was that it couldn't be done.

>>
> Mike, you can't ignore physics. It takes energy to accelerate mass.
> Increase the mass and you have to increase the energy input to
> maintain the same performance level. That's why all economy cars are
> small and light. More mass also equals higher rolling resistance
> which requires energy to overcome.
>

If all we were doing was accelerating mass, there wouldn't be an issue. The
fallacy is that it takes some specific energy to accomplish the movement of
mass from one place to another, even if the height of the two points is the
same. That is not true at all; the efficiency of that operation is always
zero since the final potential energy is the same as the initial potential
energy. The question is how much energy is going to be wasted in the losses.

For the sake of argument we can keep the frictional losses the same, in
which case the question is in the efficiency of the motive source. That is
where conventional power trains are so dismal, running at a tiny fraction of
their full power output and suffering the staggering losses that go with it.
Hybrids make their biggest gains by using the power plant more efficiently.
Not that much more efficiently at this stage, but doubling the efficiency
from dismal to lousy is no big trick. There is something very wrong with
using a power train that is less efficient at 30 mph than at 60 mph.

The proof is in the actual performance - even hybrids such as the Prius
typically double the fuel economy of equivalent conventional cars in town.
On the highway, where the air resistance losses are dominant, the advantage
is much lower.

Mike

Re: Prius seldom runs on batteries alone?
 

In alt.autos.toyota Michael Pardee <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote:
>
> There is a wide misconception that regeneration is a major source
> of the hybrid's efficiency advantage. In actuality, it is a very minor
> contributor.

What are the major contributors, then?

I'd have to assume shutting down the engine at stoplights helps a lot
for the EPA city mileage number.

Good aerodynamics and tires with low rolling resistance, certainly.

Thinking about it, regeneration might be minor, but not "very" minor.
What else could cause the jump from 30 to 50 MPG?

Re: Prius seldom runs on batteries alone?
 

In alt.autos.toyota Chuck Olson <chuckolson01@removethiscomcast.net> wrote:
>
> As most have said, the battery has to be charged above a specific threshold
> for the ICE to turn off. I have found that you also need to be in cruise
> control. Normal driving with foot on the accelerator just doesn't produce
> electric-only operation except at very slow side-street speeds. I guess
> that's because the Prius computer doesn't trust human beings to drive at a
> single fixed speed. My favorite EV speed in cruise control is 34 MPH.

Interesting advice -- I'll have to try this.

> To make sure the battery is charged and ready for EV operation, you need to
> apply fairly heavy braking from freeway speed.. Just slowing down slowly
> doesn't charge up the battery very efficiently. Unfortunately this kind of
> driving is uncomfortable for passengers, so don't do it unless you're alone.
> Also, make sure you brake before you hit a curve or encounter cross traffic.

The B transmission setting is my favored way of doing this. I believe
it saves the brake pads, and it does not bother my passengers.

Re: Prius seldom runs on batteries alone?
 

In alt.autos.toyota mrv@kluge.net <mrv@kluge.net> wrote:
>
> 2004-2007 UK tire
> Bridgestone Turanza ER30
> 195/55R16
> 87V

That would go partway to explaining why a US Prius gets better mileage
than a UK Prius. Although I can't find the exact size, Turanza have
significantly higher rolling resistance than Goodyear Integrity tires.
Also the 195 versus 185 width increases aerodynamic drag.

http://onlinepubs.trb.org/onlinepubs...tance_Data.pdf

Re: Prius seldom runs on batteries alone?
 

In article <45d8ea26@news.meer.net> ccreekin@yahoo.com "Bill Tuthill" writes:

> In alt.autos.toyota Michael Pardee <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote:
> >
> > There is a wide misconception that regeneration is a major source
> > of the hybrid's efficiency advantage. In actuality, it is a very minor
> > contributor.
>
> What are the major contributors, then?
>
> [...]

You know, these are topics that have been well talked through in
the not-so-distant past. Google would be your friend.

But: petrol engine's efficiency (Atkinson Cycle IIRC: less power
developed for same displacement as commonplace Otto Cycle engine
yet much better use of fuel) and general engineering qualities.

The notorious electrical bits allow some of the others. A Prius
doesn't break down easily into "this only does that". Parts are
idiosyncratic for more than one reason, often as not.

Day-to-day: engine properly warmed; tyres at right pressure; how
it is driven and maintained; type of fuel.
--
Andrew Stephenson

Re: Prius seldom runs on batteries alone?
 

In article <45d8ec13@news.meer.net> ccreekin@yahoo.com "Bill Tuthill" writes:

> In alt.autos.toyota mrv@kluge.net <mrv@kluge.net> wrote:
> >
> > 2004-2007 UK tire
> > Bridgestone Turanza ER30
> > 195/55R16
> > 87V
>
> That would go partway to explaining why a US Prius gets better
> mileage than a UK Prius. Although I can't find the exact size,
> Turanza have significantly higher rolling resistance than
> Goodyear Integrity tires. [...]

For the sake of the experimental data, I have just been outside
to check my 2005 UK Prius: out in the dark dank chill with just
my feeble torch for company, as winds moaned and owls hooted...

Bridgestone Turanza. Couldn't make out the associated numbers.
But the tyres fit fine. :-)

I hope you lot appreciate that this effort was above and beyond
the call of any duty. Where do I apply for my medals?

BTW, why don't they fit Integras in this market? Mine was made
in *.jp, so they can't be any harder to find. Conflicting road
demands and/or national car type certification conditions?
--
Andrew Stephenson

Re: What about the mileage!?!?!?!?!
 

On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 09:53:52 -0800, mrv@kluge.net wrote:

>> The funny thing is, the average American Prius driver drives the damn
>> car like a silver-haired Granny in the 1964 F-85 she bought brand new 43
>> years ago. So adding the EV mode would be a good idea on Toyota's part.
>> In the week I drove one, I spent some time crawling from a start, and
>> found it did NOTHING! I was getting better mileage with an AT Tercel.
>> When I started driving it 'normal', the numbers didn't budge.
>
> Yes, and you've already said that that was on a pre-production model in
> 2000. The car has had numerous changes since then! I suggest that you
> try another week test drive in a current NHW20 Prius.
>
> (There's also far better emissions controls (notorious for lowering fuel
> economy) since your AT Tercel... and I won't get into the apples and
> oranges of comparing a manual to an automatic CVT...)


It was an AT Tercel...

Re: Re:What about the mileage!?!?!?!?!
 

On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 06:38:24 -0500, mark_digital© wrote:

>
> "Hachiroku ????" <Trueno@AE86.gts> wrote in message
> news:XDRBh.5880$am1.2065@trndny01...
>> On Sat, 17 Feb 2007 20:33:21 +0000, R PRINCETON wrote:
>>
>>> I have noticed that the ICV in my Prius runs way more often than I
>>> expected, and for more than just recharging the batteries. The cute
>>> animation in the LCD display clearly shows that most of the time the
>>> ICV is powering the wheels, i.e., providing more power than the
>>> electric motor
>>> by itself can provide. I am suspicious that this is done so as to
>>> improve the Prius's "drivability" in the US; i.e., greater
>>> acceleration. Us Americans are accustomed to "tearing" away from the
>>> traffic light.
>>
>>
>> This is exactly it. They use the Gas engine more in the US to provide
>> the performance Americans expect.
>>
>> The funny thing is, the average American Prius driver drives the damn
>> car like a silver-haired Granny in the 1964 F-85 she bought brand new 43
>> years ago. So adding the EV mode would be a good idea on Toyota's part.
>> In the week I drove one, I spent some time crawling from a start, and
>> found it did NOTHING! I was getting better mileage with an AT Tercel.
>> When I started driving it 'normal', the numbers didn't budge.
>>
>>
> If the traction battery has the charged potential to move the car 1000 ft
> it doesn't matter if it's at acceleration from a dead stop or dispersed
> for the next couple of miles.
> So, I agree with your experience 100%. I disagree with your one week
> assessment of mpg though, unless you filled the tank several times during
> that week.


I was reading it off the computer...

Re: Re:What about the mileage!?!?!?!?!
 

On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 07:59:03 -0500, mark_digital© wrote:

> BTW, I'll be at Thorn's market today sometime around 1 pm. I'm easy to
> spot. I won't be wearing a winter coat ;)


Whew...I was...it was colder today!

Re: Prius seldom runs on batteries alone?
 

"Bill Tuthill" <ccreekin@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:45d8ea26@news.meer.net...
> In alt.autos.toyota Michael Pardee <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote:
>>
>> There is a wide misconception that regeneration is a major source
>> of the hybrid's efficiency advantage. In actuality, it is a very minor
>> contributor.
>
> What are the major contributors, then?
>
> I'd have to assume shutting down the engine at stoplights helps a lot
> for the EPA city mileage number.
>
> Good aerodynamics and tires with low rolling resistance, certainly.
>
> Thinking about it, regeneration might be minor, but not "very" minor.
> What else could cause the jump from 30 to 50 MPG?
>

Reducing the amount of time the engine runs at very low efficiency is the
big one. As the topic illustrates, the present Toyota system isn't very
aggresive at that but it still shuts the engine down and uses electrics
enough of the time to avoid wasting about half the gasoline in low speed
use.

With more powerful electrics (and especially if it becomes practical to
include battery power that will carry a car at full load over major mountain
ranges) the engine can also be downsized. Accelerator response and passing
are the rightful domain of electric power, rather than increasing engine
power and thus reducing efficiency even more in normal use; that darned
Second Law of Thermodynamics again.

Mike

Re: Prius seldom runs on batteries alone?
 

In alt.autos.toyota Andrew Stephenson <ames@deltrak.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> > 2004-2007 UK tire
>> > Bridgestone Turanza ER30
>> > 195/55R16
>
> Bridgestone Turanza. Couldn't make out the associated numbers.
> But the tyres fit fine. :-)

Thanks!

> I hope you lot appreciate that this effort was above and beyond
> the call of any duty. Where do I apply for my medals?

We will award you the Parliamentary medal of freedom (all rubber).

> BTW, why don't they fit Integras in this market? Mine was made
> in *.jp, so they can't be any harder to find. Conflicting road
> demands and/or national car type certification conditions?

The Turanza has better resistance to hydroplaning and longer tread life.
Here are the Consumer Reports ratings of it:

Braking - good
Cornering - poor
Emergency handling - good
With ABS - good
Hydroplaning - good
Snow traction - poor
Ice braking - poor
Steering feel - good
Impact - fair
Noise - fair
Rolling resistance - poor
Tread wear - very good

Re: Prius seldom runs on batteries alone?
 

"Bill Tuthill" <ccreekin@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:45d8eaaa@news.meer.net...
> In alt.autos.toyota Chuck Olson <chuckolson01@removethiscomcast.net>
> wrote:
>>
>> As most have said, the battery has to be charged above a specific
>> threshold
>> for the ICE to turn off. I have found that you also need to be in cruise
>> control. Normal driving with foot on the accelerator just doesn't produce
>> electric-only operation except at very slow side-street speeds. I guess
>> that's because the Prius computer doesn't trust human beings to drive at
>> a
>> single fixed speed. My favorite EV speed in cruise control is 34 MPH.
>
> Interesting advice -- I'll have to try this.
>
>> To make sure the battery is charged and ready for EV operation, you need
>> to
>> apply fairly heavy braking from freeway speed.. Just slowing down slowly
>> doesn't charge up the battery very efficiently. Unfortunately this kind
>> of
>> driving is uncomfortable for passengers, so don't do it unless you're
>> alone.
>> Also, make sure you brake before you hit a curve or encounter cross
>> traffic.
>
> The B transmission setting is my favored way of doing this. I believe
> it saves the brake pads, and it does not bother my passengers.
>

I recommend just using the brakes - they don't normally use friction above
12 mph or so. The brakes on my 106K mile Prius are nearly at original
thickness.

"B" mode is somewhat less efficient than using the brakes, because it
reduces regeneration. That doesn't make a huge difference, but just braking
is easier, too. "B" mode is useful on long downhills, especially if the drop
is more than 2000 ft. When the battery is fully charged the friction brakes
start getting wear.

Mike

Re: Prius seldom runs on batteries alone?
 

In article <45d8fe39@news.meer.net> ccreekin@yahoo.com "Bill
Tuthill" writes:

> In alt.autos.toyota Andrew Stephenson
> <ames@deltrak.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > I hope you lot appreciate that this effort was above and beyond
> > the call of any duty. Where do I apply for my medals?
>
> We will award you the Parliamentary medal of freedom (all
> rubber).

Okay, so long as it doesn't bounce. (OT: OTOH, if Parliament is
involved, some kind of dodginess seems likely.)

> > BTW, why don't they fit Integras in this market? Mine was made
> > in *.jp, so they can't be any harder to find. Conflicting road
> > demands and/or national car type certification conditions?
>
> The Turanza has better resistance to hydroplaning and longer
> tread life. Here are the Consumer Reports ratings of it:
>
> [...]

Hmm, yes. It does rain occasionally in the UK, more than in the
sunny parts of *.ca.us at least. And snow has been short lately.

Ta. I shall luxuriate in that low wear and loss of hydroplaning,
while maintaining the proper tyre pressures.
--
Andrew Stephenson

Re: What about the mileage!?!?!?!?!
 

On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 10:50:42 -0500, You guess
<jackj^remove^180@adelphia.net> wrote:

>There ain't no such thing as a free lunch. Perpitual motion is a
>thing of fiction. If you believe all of these conversion losses add
>up to an increase in efficiency then you might want to buy this
>ethanol plant I have for sale.

Please advise us how these grossly inefficient vehicles get this kind
of mileage:

http://www.greenhybrid.com/compare/mileage/

Re: What about the mileage!?!?!?!?!
 

On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 14:23:29 -0700, "Michael Pardee"
<michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote:

>"You guess" <jackj^remove^180@adelphia.net> wrote in message
>news:1sogt2d22bgfhisiksaapvu88dnls9itro@4ax.com.. .
>> On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 07:14:04 -0700, "Michael Pardee"
>> <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
Mike,

This is going to be my last on this subject. I'm not going to
convince you and you're not going to convince me.

You don't point to any hard info on increased efficiency, you just say
it is so. I have read where some of the Toyota and Honda hybrid
customers are not happy. They are not getting the mileage the sicker
says they should. They aren't missing the figure by 4 or 5%, they're
missing it by 25 to 30%. They have gotten some lawyer to file a class
action suit. No great challenge that and filing a law suit doesn't
prove anything, I grant you. But it does show that not everyone is
tickled pink with their hybrid.

I own a 2006 Corolla. It has a small IC engine and gets good mileage
while delivering reasonable performance, that's why I bought it. An
honest 35 to 37 mpg on the highway at 60 mph. Mileage around town is
less but still in the mid 20's. The reason why it gets better mileage
than my Mercury Grand Marquis is because it's small and light and
doesn't have as much engine. Two of the Toyota engines still wouldn't
make the V8 that is in my Merc.

The Merc gets around 28 to 29 mpg at 60 mph but only about 15 to 17
mpg around town. The Merc has 2 major things working against it on
mileage, weight and air resistance. It's about as stream-lined as a
book case and weighs almost as much as 2 Corolla's.

What I'm trying to point out is that I could never get the Mercury to
get the same mileage as the Corolla. If I put the engine and drive
train from my Corolla into my Mercury, it wouldn't get anywhere near
the mileage of the Corolla. But the performance would be a lot worse
than either of them furnish now. Adding an electric motor, batteries
and the control circuitry of a hybrid to the existing drive train of
the Mercury would only further decrease the mileage.

I also will never get the Corolla to be as comfortable as the Mercury.
I can drive the Grand Marquis for hours without getting tired but the
Corolla has me squirming around in less than an hour.

You mentioned that you decided while you were still in high school
that automobiles were inefficient and I agree. But adding more
inefficient elements to the mix won't make for greater efficiency.

I could be a smart a-- here and say that some folks believe in Global
Warming, that CFC's cause the Ozone hole over the South Pole, the
Easter bunny and Santa Claus....but I won't. hehehe

I think I'll go mix some aged ethanol from Tennessee with water and
ice now. I've enjoyed the discussion but I'm not going to respond to
anything else on the subject.

Thanks
Jack


---
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Re: Prius seldom runs on batteries alone?
 

"who" <i@notaspammer.net> wrote in message
news:i-FAFC13.00570718022007@news.telus.net...
> In article <gTjBh.2094$x74.744@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.n et>,
> "Tomes" <askme@here.net> wrote:
>
>> It is my unscientific belief that I regenerate more than I use,
>
> You believe in myths or is it perpetual motion?

It is my belief that you are misrepresenting what I said, taken out of
context. I will try it this way: I generate a certain amount of energy
stored in the batteries, and only use less of that than I would like.
Tomes

Re: Prius seldom runs on batteries alone?
 

"Bill Tuthill" <ccreekin@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:45d8ea26@news.meer.net...
> In alt.autos.toyota Michael Pardee <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote:
>>
>> There is a wide misconception that regeneration is a major source
>> of the hybrid's efficiency advantage. In actuality, it is a very minor
>> contributor.
>
> What are the major contributors, then?
>
> I'd have to assume shutting down the engine at stoplights helps a lot
> for the EPA city mileage number.
>
> Good aerodynamics and tires with low rolling resistance, certainly.
>
> Thinking about it, regeneration might be minor, but not "very" minor.
> What else could cause the jump from 30 to 50 MPG?
>

I wish it had tires of low rolling resistance. The ones on there are only
normal rolling resistance.
Tomes (otherwise generally agreeing here)

Re: Prius seldom runs on batteries alone?
 

"Gordon McGrew" <RgEmMcOgVrEew@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:gnugt2tp0ltt1qf3531t4312b6ngsgnemi@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 04:56:22 GMT, "Tomes" <askme@here.net> wrote:
>
>>"Andrew Stephenson" wrote ...
>>> "Tomes" writes:
>>>> Ah - I found it: "Slowing down to less than 24 MPH (39 km/h) will
>>>> cause
>>>> the cruise-control "resume" memory to reset. So if you have to slow
>>>> down
>>>> or stop, you'll need to set the speed again." - From the Toyota Prius
>>>> User
>>>> Guide
>>>> http://john1701a.com/prius/documents...User-Guide.pdf
>>>>
>>>> So how do you start and accelerate in cruise control in the Prius?
>>>> What
>>>> is the trick?
>>>
>>> Can't answer the "how to start in cruise" part: never tried. If
>>> you think about it, start and/or accelerate are not big parts of
>>> cruising.
>>>
>>> Changing cruise speed I do by the book: flip cruise lever up (+1
>>> mph) or down (-1 mph).
>>> --
>>> Andrew Stephenson
>>>
>>That's just it, I don't think you can. I do see this as a Toyota flaw.
>>In my Jeep it remembers what the cruise was set at so after paying a
>>toll
>>you can just go back to the former speed without needing to find it
>>again.
>>Since that one is a 5-speed, I cannot try to have it go from the
>>startup.
>>
>>And, yep, changing the cruise speed is just as you note.
>>Tomes
>
> I guess every manufacturer does it differently. Honda cruise control
> will remember the speed until you shut off the engine or at least the
> CC master switch. However, the CC cannot be engaged at speeds below
> ~20 mph. I think they want to prevent someone from inadvertently
> engaging the CC and having the car jump from a stationary position.
>
>
That's another thing. The minimum speed thing on CC. Why not let it
start at 10 MPH or so? I use it a lot when the speed limit is, say,
40MPH. It prevents me from accidentally going faster, which I can so
easily do. But I cannot use it for a speed limit of 30, which we have
around here on windy rural back roads. I would really like to set it at
33 and just let it go, but alas I cannot. I perceive this as another
flaw. (The Jeep is the same way, engages at about 35).
Tomes

Re: Prius seldom runs on batteries alone?
 

"Andrew Stephenson" wrote...
> "Bill Tuthill" writes:
>> mrv@kluge.net wrote:
>> >
>> > 2004-2007 UK tire
>> > Bridgestone Turanza ER30
>> > 195/55R16
>> > 87V
>>
>> That would go partway to explaining why a US Prius gets better
>> mileage than a UK Prius. Although I can't find the exact size,
>> Turanza have significantly higher rolling resistance than
>> Goodyear Integrity tires. [...]
>
> For the sake of the experimental data, I have just been outside
> to check my 2005 UK Prius: out in the dark dank chill with just
> my feeble torch for company, as winds moaned and owls hooted...
>
> Bridgestone Turanza. Couldn't make out the associated numbers.
> But the tyres fit fine. :-)
>
> I hope you lot appreciate that this effort was above and beyond
> the call of any duty. Where do I apply for my medals?
>
> BTW, why don't they fit Integras in this market? Mine was made
> in *.jp, so they can't be any harder to find. Conflicting road
> demands and/or national car type certification conditions?
> --
> Andrew Stephenson
>

I was just out there too putting some more air into the Prius' tires (in
response to a RayO post that spurred me on), and saw that the Integras
were "Made in Japan", stamped right on the tire sidewall. If the car came
from Japan (which I believe they all do), they made a conscious choice to
fit yours with the Bridgestones instead of the Goodyears.
Tomes

Re: Prius seldom runs on batteries alone?
 

<mrv@kluge.net> wrote ...
> "Tomes" wrote:
>
>> It is my unscientific belief that I regenerate more than I use, based
>> upon
>> my observation that I am in the green a lot and hardly ever go below
>> half
>> of the blue. Thus, I would like to use the electric moreso that it
>> does
>> by default.
>
> You can view the NHW20 Prius battery charge levels at:
> http://privatenrg.com/#Full_SOC
>
> You'd know if you regenerated too much energy by your Prius trying to
> get rid of extra charge. People who have just come down a long
> downhill (mountain) often report that at a stop their engine will
> cycle on/off repeatedly. The Prius will try to bleed off the high SOC
> by having one of the electric motors repeatedly start and spin the
> gasoline engine...
>
> (Also, if the hybrid battery cannot accept any more charge, it simply
> will not. You will no longer have regenerative braking, and will be
> switched to a higher percentage of conventional hydrolic braking.)
>
> If you are just driving around in the green and don't notice anything
> else different, then you aren't regenerating more than you can use...
>
Now that is a website I had not found yet. I will go back to that for a
read, but now right now (bookmarked). Thanks plenty.

My point is just a little bit off from what you are saying (and thanks for
saying it). My angle is that I would like the Prius to use the electric
motor moreso than it does now. I believe that I generate enough that it
ought to do that.
Tomes

Re: Prius seldom runs on batteries alone? - B Mode
 

"Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in message
news:t6GdnWhyqMj3nUTYnZ2dnUVZ_vmqnZ2d@sedona.net.. .
> "Bill Tuthill" <ccreekin@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:45d8eaaa@news.meer.net...
>> In alt.autos.toyota Chuck Olson <chuckolson01@removethiscomcast.net>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> As most have said, the battery has to be charged above a specific
>>> threshold
>>> for the ICE to turn off. I have found that you also need to be in
>>> cruise
>>> control. Normal driving with foot on the accelerator just doesn't
>>> produce
>>> electric-only operation except at very slow side-street speeds. I
>>> guess
>>> that's because the Prius computer doesn't trust human beings to drive
>>> at a
>>> single fixed speed. My favorite EV speed in cruise control is 34 MPH.
>>
>> Interesting advice -- I'll have to try this.
>>
>>> To make sure the battery is charged and ready for EV operation, you
>>> need to
>>> apply fairly heavy braking from freeway speed.. Just slowing down
>>> slowly
>>> doesn't charge up the battery very efficiently. Unfortunately this
>>> kind of
>>> driving is uncomfortable for passengers, so don't do it unless you're
>>> alone.
>>> Also, make sure you brake before you hit a curve or encounter cross
>>> traffic.
>>
>> The B transmission setting is my favored way of doing this. I believe
>> it saves the brake pads, and it does not bother my passengers.
>>
>
> I recommend just using the brakes - they don't normally use friction
> above 12 mph or so. The brakes on my 106K mile Prius are nearly at
> original thickness.
>
> "B" mode is somewhat less efficient than using the brakes, because it
> reduces regeneration. That doesn't make a huge difference, but just
> braking is easier, too. "B" mode is useful on long downhills, especially
> if the drop is more than 2000 ft. When the battery is fully charged the
> friction brakes start getting wear.
>

OK, I know I have read this, and what I have read has not always been the
same thing. In your words, what exactly does 'B' mode do and how?
Thanks.
Tomes

Re: Prius seldom runs on batteries alone?
 

"Tomes" <askme@here.net> wrote in message
news:TT8Ch.3218$_73.2885@newsread2.news.pas.earthl ink.net...
<snipped>
> I guess every manufacturer does it differently. Honda cruise control
>> will remember the speed until you shut off the engine or at least the
>> CC master switch. However, the CC cannot be engaged at speeds below
>> ~20 mph. I think they want to prevent someone from inadvertently
>> engaging the CC and having the car jump from a stationary position.
>>
>>
> That's another thing. The minimum speed thing on CC. Why not let it
> start at 10 MPH or so? I use it a lot when the speed limit is, say,
> 40MPH. It prevents me from accidentally going faster, which I can so
> easily do. But I cannot use it for a speed limit of 30, which we have
> around here on windy rural back roads. I would really like to set it at
> 33 and just let it go, but alas I cannot. I perceive this as another
> flaw. (The Jeep is the same way, engages at about 35).
> Tomes
IIRC, the minimum speed to set cruise control on a Toyota is around 25 MPH,
below which, the CC will not set and the memory clears. I can set the CC on
our 3 Toyotas at 30 MPH, which I do in areas where the police often sit ;-)
--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

Re: Prius seldom runs on batteries alone? - B Mode
 

"Tomes" <askme@here.net> wrote in message
news:v99Ch.3213$x74.1861@newsread4.news.pas.earthl ink.net...
<snipped>>
>> "B" mode is somewhat less efficient than using the brakes, because it
>> reduces regeneration. That doesn't make a huge difference, but just
>> braking is easier, too. "B" mode is useful on long downhills, especially
>> if the drop is more than 2000 ft. When the battery is fully charged the
>> friction brakes start getting wear.
>>
>
> OK, I know I have read this, and what I have read has not always been the
> same thing. In your words, what exactly does 'B' mode do and how? Thanks.
> Tomes

According to the faq section at www.toyota.com:
"B" is the position for engine braking. Engine braking assists the brakes
in slowing the vehicle. It serves a similar function to downshifting on an
automatic transmission. This position is intended for going down long
declines, and utilizes the electric motor to slow the vehicle and regenerate
electricity. For more information please reference Section 2 of your
Owner's Manual.

--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

Re: What about the mileage!?!?!?!?!
 

On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 21:09:26 -0500, You guess
<jackj^remove^180@adelphia.net> wrote:

>On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 14:23:29 -0700, "Michael Pardee"
><michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote:
>
>>"You guess" <jackj^remove^180@adelphia.net> wrote in message
>>news:1sogt2d22bgfhisiksaapvu88dnls9itro@4ax.com. ..
>>> On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 07:14:04 -0700, "Michael Pardee"
>>> <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>Mike,
>
>This is going to be my last on this subject. I'm not going to
>convince you and you're not going to convince me.
>
>You don't point to any hard info on increased efficiency, you just say
>it is so.

Here is some pretty good evidence:
http://www.greenhybrid.com/compare/mileage/

> I have read where some of the Toyota and Honda hybrid
>customers are not happy.

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news0.../cr_prius.html

Prius Ranks #1 in Owner Satisfaction

>They are not getting the mileage the sicker
>says they should. They aren't missing the figure by 4 or 5%, they're
>missing it by 25 to 30%. They have gotten some lawyer to file a class
>action suit.

Do you have a citation for this? Couldn't find it on Google.

> No great challenge that and filing a law suit doesn't
>prove anything, I grant you. But it does show that not everyone is
>tickled pink with their hybrid.
>
>I own a 2006 Corolla. It has a small IC engine and gets good mileage
>while delivering reasonable performance, that's why I bought it. An
>honest 35 to 37 mpg on the highway at 60 mph. Mileage around town is
>less but still in the mid 20's. The reason why it gets better mileage
>than my Mercury Grand Marquis is because it's small and light and
>doesn't have as much engine. Two of the Toyota engines still wouldn't
>make the V8 that is in my Merc.
>
>The Merc gets around 28 to 29 mpg at 60 mph but only about 15 to 17
>mpg around town. The Merc has 2 major things working against it on
>mileage, weight and air resistance. It's about as stream-lined as a
>book case and weighs almost as much as 2 Corolla's.
>
>What I'm trying to point out is that I could never get the Mercury to
>get the same mileage as the Corolla. If I put the engine and drive
>train from my Corolla into my Mercury, it wouldn't get anywhere near
>the mileage of the Corolla. But the performance would be a lot worse
>than either of them furnish now. Adding an electric motor, batteries
>and the control circuitry of a hybrid to the existing drive train of
>the Mercury would only further decrease the mileage.

According to Consumer Reports, Civic gets:

Hybrid EX Si
1.3L CVT 1.8L AT 2.0L MT
overall mileage, mpg 37 28 27
city/highway, mpg 26/47 18/43 19/35
150-mile trip, mpg 45 34 32
EPA city/highway, mpg 49/51 30/40 23/32
0-30 mph, sec. 4.4 3.6 2.7
0-60 mph, sec. 11.7 10.1 7.0
Quarter mile, sec. 18.8 17.7 15.4
Quarter mile, mph 77 80 94
45-65 mph, sec. 7.3 6.0 4.5

What I want is the Si Hybrid.



>
>I also will never get the Corolla to be as comfortable as the Mercury.
>I can drive the Grand Marquis for hours without getting tired but the
>Corolla has me squirming around in less than an hour.
>
>You mentioned that you decided while you were still in high school
>that automobiles were inefficient and I agree. But adding more
>inefficient elements to the mix won't make for greater efficiency.
>
>I could be a smart a-- here and say that some folks believe in Global
>Warming, that CFC's cause the Ozone hole over the South Pole, the
>Easter bunny and Santa Claus....but I won't. hehehe

You will.

>
>I think I'll go mix some aged ethanol from Tennessee with water and
>ice now. I've enjoyed the discussion but I'm not going to respond to
>anything else on the subject.
>
>Thanks
>Jack
>
>
>---
>avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
>Virus Database (VPS): 000714-3, 02/18/2007
>Tested on: 2/18/2007 9:09:27 PM
>avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2007 ALWIL Software.
>http://www.avast.com
>
>

Re: Prius seldom runs on batteries alone?
 

On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 18:42:01 -0700, "Michael Pardee"
<michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote:

>"Bill Tuthill" <ccreekin@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:45d8eaaa@news.meer.net...
>> In alt.autos.toyota Chuck Olson <chuckolson01@removethiscomcast.net>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> As most have said, the battery has to be charged above a specific
>>> threshold
>>> for the ICE to turn off. I have found that you also need to be in cruise
>>> control. Normal driving with foot on the accelerator just doesn't produce
>>> electric-only operation except at very slow side-street speeds. I guess
>>> that's because the Prius computer doesn't trust human beings to drive at
>>> a
>>> single fixed speed. My favorite EV speed in cruise control is 34 MPH.
>>
>> Interesting advice -- I'll have to try this.
>>
>>> To make sure the battery is charged and ready for EV operation, you need
>>> to
>>> apply fairly heavy braking from freeway speed.. Just slowing down slowly
>>> doesn't charge up the battery very efficiently. Unfortunately this kind
>>> of
>>> driving is uncomfortable for passengers, so don't do it unless you're
>>> alone.
>>> Also, make sure you brake before you hit a curve or encounter cross
>>> traffic.
>>
>> The B transmission setting is my favored way of doing this. I believe
>> it saves the brake pads, and it does not bother my passengers.
>>
>
>I recommend just using the brakes - they don't normally use friction above
>12 mph or so. The brakes on my 106K mile Prius are nearly at original
>thickness.
>
>"B" mode is somewhat less efficient than using the brakes, because it
>reduces regeneration. That doesn't make a huge difference, but just braking
>is easier, too. "B" mode is useful on long downhills, especially if the drop
>is more than 2000 ft. When the battery is fully charged the friction brakes
>start getting wear.

More critically, the brakes will overheat and fail if used to control
speed on a long/steep descent.

Re: What about the mileage!?!?!?!?!
 

"You guess" <jackj^remove^180@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:68uht2linmu47orlobi02m6pebhoq1tq7q@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 14:23:29 -0700, "Michael Pardee"
> <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote:
>
>>"You guess" <jackj^remove^180@adelphia.net> wrote in message
>>news:1sogt2d22bgfhisiksaapvu88dnls9itro@4ax.com. ..
>>> On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 07:14:04 -0700, "Michael Pardee"
>>> <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
> Mike,
>
> This is going to be my last on this subject. I'm not going to
> convince you and you're not going to convince me.
>
> You don't point to any hard info on increased efficiency, you just say
> it is so. I have read where some of the Toyota and Honda hybrid
> customers are not happy. They are not getting the mileage the sicker
> says they should. They aren't missing the figure by 4 or 5%, they're
> missing it by 25 to 30%. They have gotten some lawyer to file a class
> action suit. No great challenge that and filing a law suit doesn't
> prove anything, I grant you. But it does show that not everyone is
> tickled pink with their hybrid.
>snip<
-----

Isn't it amazing what some people do? They buy a car with no intention on
keeping it. Grab the tax incentive, maybe drive a few thousand miles,
complain it doesn't perform like it should and then resell it for more than
sticker.
The Feds and the IRS just let it happen. What a sham.

Re: Prius seldom runs on batteries alone?
 

In article <45d65311@news.meer.net>, Bill Tuthill <ccreekin@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> Driving 75-80 mph from San Jose to Los Angeles, my wife got about
> what you UK drivers get. Short trips are far worse for Prius mileage
> than excessive speeds.
It's stop and go driving where the hybrid technology gains, there's
little or no gain with steady high speed driving.
Sounds like it's not working properly.

Re: Prius seldom runs on batteries alone?
 

"who" <i@notaspammer.net> wrote in message
news:i-1C3475.00542219022007@news.telus.net...
> In article <45d65311@news.meer.net>, Bill Tuthill <ccreekin@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Driving 75-80 mph from San Jose to Los Angeles, my wife got about
>> what you UK drivers get. Short trips are far worse for Prius mileage
>> than excessive speeds.
> It's stop and go driving where the hybrid technology gains, there's
> little or no gain with steady high speed driving.
> Sounds like it's not working properly.
-----
Barometric pressure and fuel quality can make either city or highway fuel
efficiency flip flop. On level ground doing 101 miles an hour my digital
display says real time fuel economy above 35 but less than 45 mpg. I
hesitate to believe a traditional non-hybrid would even come close to that
fuel economy range at that speed. So, when someone tells their husband they
only saw such and such fuel efficiency you can sure as hell bet they drove
much faster than what they said they did, or their range of speed was more
like an up and down 60 to 80. Can't place blame on the car.
mark_
-----

Re: What about the mileage!?!?!?!?!
 

"You guess" <jackj^remove^180@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:68uht2linmu47orlobi02m6pebhoq1tq7q@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 14:23:29 -0700, "Michael Pardee"
> <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote:
>
>>"You guess" <jackj^remove^180@adelphia.net> wrote in message
>>news:1sogt2d22bgfhisiksaapvu88dnls9itro@4ax.com. ..
>>> On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 07:14:04 -0700, "Michael Pardee"
>>> <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
> Mike,
>
> This is going to be my last on this subject. I'm not going to
> convince you and you're not going to convince me.
>
> You don't point to any hard info on increased efficiency, you just say
> it is so. I have read where some of the Toyota and Honda hybrid
> customers are not happy. They are not getting the mileage the sicker
> says they should. They aren't missing the figure by 4 or 5%, they're
> missing it by 25 to 30%. They have gotten some lawyer to file a class
> action suit. No great challenge that and filing a law suit doesn't
> prove anything, I grant you. But it does show that not everyone is
> tickled pink with their hybrid.
>
> I own a 2006 Corolla. It has a small IC engine and gets good mileage
> while delivering reasonable performance, that's why I bought it. An
> honest 35 to 37 mpg on the highway at 60 mph. Mileage around town is
> less but still in the mid 20's. The reason why it gets better mileage
> than my Mercury Grand Marquis is because it's small and light and
> doesn't have as much engine. Two of the Toyota engines still wouldn't
> make the V8 that is in my Merc.
>
> The Merc gets around 28 to 29 mpg at 60 mph but only about 15 to 17
> mpg around town. The Merc has 2 major things working against it on
> mileage, weight and air resistance. It's about as stream-lined as a
> book case and weighs almost as much as 2 Corolla's.
>
> What I'm trying to point out is that I could never get the Mercury to
> get the same mileage as the Corolla. If I put the engine and drive
> train from my Corolla into my Mercury, it wouldn't get anywhere near
> the mileage of the Corolla. But the performance would be a lot worse
> than either of them furnish now. Adding an electric motor, batteries
> and the control circuitry of a hybrid to the existing drive train of
> the Mercury would only further decrease the mileage.
>
> I also will never get the Corolla to be as comfortable as the Mercury.
> I can drive the Grand Marquis for hours without getting tired but the
> Corolla has me squirming around in less than an hour.
>
> You mentioned that you decided while you were still in high school
> that automobiles were inefficient and I agree. But adding more
> inefficient elements to the mix won't make for greater efficiency.
>
> I could be a smart a-- here and say that some folks believe in Global
> Warming, that CFC's cause the Ozone hole over the South Pole, the
> Easter bunny and Santa Claus....but I won't. hehehe
>
> I think I'll go mix some aged ethanol from Tennessee with water and
> ice now. I've enjoyed the discussion but I'm not going to respond to
> anything else on the subject.
>
> Thanks
> Jack
>
>
As an owner of two Prius, I am very happy. The two cars together have
roughly the same fuel consumption of the 300ZX I traded in, and they are a
joy to drive (I love maneuverability). Most of all, they are the most
reliable cars I've ever had, by a wide margin. To each their own.

BTW... I'm with you on global warming and CFCs, but you're right - let's not
get that started. Have you seen NASA's findings on polar ozone depletion at
http://tinyurl.com/2lkn42 ? Especially interesting is Table 1 on page 59 of
the .doc version.

Don't get the Easter Bunny mad at us, though. I need the chocolate eggs.

Mike

Re: Prius seldom runs on batteries alone?
 

In article <d900$45d924ca$47c2b532$16838@msgid.meganewsserver s.com>
rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom "Ray O" writes:

> IIRC, the minimum speed to set cruise control on a Toyota is around 25 MPH,
> below which, the CC will not set and the memory clears. I can set the CC on
> our 3 Toyotas at 30 MPH, which I do in areas where the police often sit ;-)

Have to break the habit of a lifetime and agree with Ray. <g> My
Prius definitely allows me to set 30mph. Haven't tried any lower
(except maybe 29mph).
--
Andrew Stephenson

Re: Prius seldom runs on batteries alone?
 

In article <i-1C3475.00542219022007@news.telus.net>
i@notaspammer.net "who" writes:

> In article <45d65311@news.meer.net>, Bill Tuthill <ccreekin@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Driving 75-80 mph from San Jose to Los Angeles, my wife got about
> > what you UK drivers get. Short trips are far worse for Prius mileage
> > than excessive speeds.

> It's stop and go driving where the hybrid technology gains, there's
> little or no gain with steady high speed driving.
> Sounds like it's not working properly.

I read Bill's remarks as meaning "really short trips", like those
which don't warm up the engine properly and give the mpg time for
"recovery".
--
Andrew Stephenson

Re: Re:What about the mileage!?!?!?!?!
 

"We need more reliable, clear numbers" Andrew Stephenson

"I agree, we can wave our hands around and make points both ways, but
without real comparative numbers (which I for one do not have) it is all
just speculation." Tomes

So basically; No one has any experimental facts to support any conclusion,
or theory.


"Polymer Science Engineer here. As a physicist, you might have run across
situations where an answer comes through discussion, as well as through a
straight answer. The discussion is what occurs here and this is the
normal course of events in this Newsgroup. This is not a flaw, it is a
feature." Patience Grasshopper

So, this group is just a bunch of old farts shooting the breeze.

For the record, the way I learned science; discussion, speculations,
conjectures, 'shooting the breeze' are all excellent ways to think about
nature, formulate theories and suggest experiments to test such theories.
But as mentor of mine once said, physics is different from logic,
mathematics, and theology, in that we run experiments.

Clearly no one has installed an EV button, and utililized it in a consistent
fashion (for example turning it on when you anticipate driving for less than
2 miles) and measured the resulting mileage.

Finally, for what its worth to those of you looking for 'hard numbers'; our
first tankfull resulted in 44mpg (US gallons, not imperial gallons, of 87
octane regular gasoline), in a mixed highway and city (red lights) commute
across gentle small hills of 75 miles per day. I also read that the US EPA
will relabel the Prius from 60 city 51 hwy to 44 hwy this coming summer.

thank you for your comments

-princeton



"Tomes" <askme@here.net> wrote in message
news:m2LBh.3283$tD2.1902@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net...
> R:
> Polymer Science Engineer here. As a physicist, you might have run across
> situations where an answer comes through discussion, as well as through a
> straight answer. The discussion is what occurs here and this is the
> normal course of events in this Newsgroup. This is not a flaw, it is a
> feature.
>
> Patience Grasshopper.
>
>
> "R PRINCETON" <rlanni@access4less.net> wrote in message
> news:lEJBh.3207$tD2.1013@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net...
> >" Did you actually READ all the responses, to your questions and
> > the others you no doubt found when you no doubt Googled on the
> > recent traffic in this NG, and THINK about them?"
> >
> > YES I DID. I have googled, I have read; that's why I included the
> > reference
> > to coal powered electric plants. (Of course, being an old fart, I may
> > have
> > missed "IT".) What I concluded is that in other countries the EV switch
> > is
> > provided by Toyota. Why? Is it because using it will improve gas
> > mileage?
> >
> > I have noticed that the ICV in my Prius runs way more often than I
> > expected,
> > and for more than just recharging the batteries. The cute animation in
> > the
> > LCD display clearly shows that most of the time the ICV is powering the
> > wheels, i.e., providing more power than the electric motor by itself can
> > provide. I am suspicious that this is done so as to improve the
> > Prius's
> > "drivability" in the US; i.e., greater acceleration. Us Americans are
> > accustomed to "tearing" away from the traffic light. While in other
> > countries slower accelerating vehicles are more the norm. I have also
> > noticed that when I take my foot off the gas after a stop the Prius
> > 'creeps'
> > just like a normal automatic transmission ICV only vehicle (something
> > that a
> > manual transmission driver does not need). Again, a feature to improve
> > drivability at the expense of mileage.
> >
> > Given that it is well known that jack-rabbit starts result in
> > significantly
> > lower gas mileage vs a more constant power curve, I would be willing to
> > accept slower starts for more gas mileage. Ergo, my interest in an EV
> > switch. It is also well known that an ICV engine runs much more
> > efficiently at a specific RPM where it generates maximum torque per
> > gallon
> > of gas; so it would make sense to operate the ICV at that speed
> > exclusively
> > for recharging the batteries and never for pulling the vehicle. That is
> > why
> > railroads use diesel-electric engines as opposed to diesel only engines.
> > (Why tractor trailers don't also do this is a mystery to me.) (Yes
> > there is
> > a point where the diesel engine generates electricity as fast as the
> > electric drive wheels consume it and that point varies with each engine
> > based upon its expected use.)
> >
> > So back to my original question: Has anyone installed an EV switch and
> > used
> > it long enough (a year or more) and noticed a marked improvement in gas
> > mileage (10% or more).
> >
> > (Why 10%? Because that show much I improved my Bonneville's mileage
> > simply
> > by using my cruise control as much as possible to accelerate the vehicle
> > and
> > maintain a more constant speed than I myself could do on the highway.)
> >
> > BTW; I am a Physicist by training. I am not interested in
> > "Implications" I
> > want facts!
> >
> >
> > -thank you
> >
> >
> > "Andrew Stephenson" <ames@deltrak.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> > news:1171719278snz@deltrak.demon.co.uk...
> >> In article <cvzBh.3066$tD2.710@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.n et>
> >> rlanni@access4less.net "R PRINCETON" writes:
> >>
> >> > Unbelievable! 11 answers and counting and no-one answers my
> >> > original
> >> > question! Are you all a bunch of politicians!?!?!?!
> >> >
> >> > OK, enough ranting....
> >> >
> >> > Ignoring, increased wear and tear on the batteries or engine, total
> > energy
> >> > equations involving my old coal powered power plant; and any
> > disturbances in
> >> > subspace temporal harmonics....
> >> >
> >> > DID THE EV only switch increase peoples mileage? and by how much?
> >>
> >> Did you actually READ all the responses, to your questions and
> >> the others you no doubt found when you no doubt Googled on the
> >> recent traffic in this NG, and THINK about them?
> >>
> >> The implication was that it's not worth doing. The car is set
> >> to care for itself and the battery. "Mileage" is another word
> >> for "efficiency" in this context. Greater efficiency turns on
> >> making better overall use of the fuel put into the tank. Read
> >> my past posts on my EV experiments (see recent Google). EV is
> >> purely there to solve local problems unrelated to efficiency.
> >>
> >> GOT IT? Thank you. That ends this party political broadcast.
> >> --
> >> Andrew Stephenson
> >>
> >
> >
>
>

Re: Prius seldom runs on batteries alone?
 

On Feb 18, 10:56 pm, "Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom>
wrote:
> "Tomes" <a...@here.net> wrote in message
> IIRC, the minimum speed to set cruise control on a Toyota is around 25 MPH,
> below which, the CC will not set and the memory clears. I can set the CC on
> our 3 Toyotas at 30 MPH, which I do in areas where the police often sit ;-)

US 2004 Owner's Manual, section 2-6 "Operation of Instruments and
Controls, "POWER switch, transmission, and parking brake," "Cruise
Control," page 141:
"The cruise control allows you to cruise the vehicle at a desired
speed over 40
km/h (25 mph) even with your foot off the accelerator pedal."

Myself, I've been able to set the cruise control at 24mph, so I'd
guess that the kph is the more important trigger there...

Re: Re:What about the mileage!?!?!?!?!
 

In article <VDjCh.4004$tD2.98@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.ne t>
rlanni@access4less.net "R PRINCETON" writes:

> Clearly no one has installed an EV button, and utililized it in
> a consistent fashion (for example turning it on when you
> anticipate driving for less than 2 miles) and measured the
> resulting mileage.

Forgive my bluntness, Mister Physicist, but it seems called for.
Either you've not actually been paying attention to what we have
been posting, or you're an idiot, or some mixture of both. Data
to hand indicate the third condition, plus ignorance and ego.

When are you going to catch on that the Prius "EV" mode does not
allow one to use it as you describe? Yes, you could engage "EV"
for (say) a series of very short trips. But sooner or later the
car's control system would decide the big battery had discharged
deeply enough to warrant flipping out of "EV" mode and firing up
the petrol engine for a recharge. It does that whether you like
it or not, to safeguard the battery (not to mention your ability
to drive the car). The length of run just isn't worth it for an
average user, the person for whom Toyota make this car. IOW, as
you've been told, repeatedly: THE CAR IS IN CHARGE OF STUFF LIKE
THAT -- NOT YOU.

If you don't like that you already know one solution. The other
is: shun this current Prius generation entirely -- along with us
farts here shooting the breeze. I especially like the last bit.

(Trolls. Bah. You just can't get classy/clever ones any more.)
--
Andrew Stephenson

Re: Re:What about the mileage!?!?!?!?!
 

"R PRINCETON" <rlanni@access4less.net> wrote in message
news:VDjCh.4004$tD2.98@newsread1.news.pas.earthlin k.net...
> "We need more reliable, clear numbers" Andrew Stephenson
>
> "I agree, we can wave our hands around and make points both ways, but
> without real comparative numbers (which I for one do not have) it is all
> just speculation." Tomes
>
> So basically; No one has any experimental facts to support any
> conclusion,
> or theory.
>
> "Polymer Science Engineer here. As a physicist, you might have run
> across
> situations where an answer comes through discussion, as well as through
> a
> straight answer. The discussion is what occurs here and this is the
> normal course of events in this Newsgroup. This is not a flaw, it is a
> feature." Patience Grasshopper
>
> So, this group is just a bunch of old farts shooting the breeze.

Sometimes. Other times we get experts weighing in as well. It is a sum
of all of it.

>
> For the record, the way I learned science; discussion, speculations,
> conjectures, 'shooting the breeze' are all excellent ways to think about
> nature, formulate theories and suggest experiments to test such
> theories.
> But as mentor of mine once said, physics is different from logic,
> mathematics, and theology, in that we run experiments.
>
> Clearly no one has installed an EV button, and utililized it in a
> consistent
> fashion (for example turning it on when you anticipate driving for less
> than
> 2 miles) and measured the resulting mileage.

Yep, looks like we are on the same page here. We have not run this
particular test and we have not found it published either, so we are back
to our discussion, speculations and conjectures. It is what we have at
hand.

>
> Finally, for what its worth to those of you looking for 'hard numbers';
> our
> first tankfull resulted in 44mpg (US gallons, not imperial gallons, of
> 87
> octane regular gasoline), in a mixed highway and city (red lights)
> commute
> across gentle small hills of 75 miles per day. I also read that the US
> EPA
> will relabel the Prius from 60 city 51 hwy to 44 hwy this coming summer.
>
> thank you for your comments
>
> -princeton

We get about the same MPG here between Flemington and Bound Brook NJ and
around here. I read that the whole EPA mileage rating system is being
revised to project more realistic numbers, rather than their
pie-in-the-sky utopian figures that they have been putting out for years.
Pegging the Prius at 44 highway is realistic from my experience.
Tomes

Re: Prius seldom runs on batteries alone?
 

"Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote in message
news:d900$45d924ca$47c2b532$16838@msgid.meganewsse rvers.com...
> "Tomes" <askme@here.net> wrote in message
> news:TT8Ch.3218$_73.2885@newsread2.news.pas.earthl ink.net...
> <snipped>
>> I guess every manufacturer does it differently. Honda cruise control
>>> will remember the speed until you shut off the engine or at least the
>>> CC master switch. However, the CC cannot be engaged at speeds below
>>> ~20 mph. I think they want to prevent someone from inadvertently
>>> engaging the CC and having the car jump from a stationary position.
>>>
>>>
>> That's another thing. The minimum speed thing on CC. Why not let it
>> start at 10 MPH or so? I use it a lot when the speed limit is, say,
>> 40MPH. It prevents me from accidentally going faster, which I can so
>> easily do. But I cannot use it for a speed limit of 30, which we have
>> around here on windy rural back roads. I would really like to set it
>> at 33 and just let it go, but alas I cannot. I perceive this as
>> another flaw. (The Jeep is the same way, engages at about 35).
>> Tomes
> IIRC, the minimum speed to set cruise control on a Toyota is around 25
> MPH, below which, the CC will not set and the memory clears. I can set
> the CC on our 3 Toyotas at 30 MPH, which I do in areas where the police
> often sit ;-)
> --
>
> Ray O
> (correct punctuation to reply)
>
Yeah, I just looked it up and it is supposed to be 24 MPH on the Prius.
That's better than I thought. But still, I would like to see a minimum of
'already engaged in forward motion' rather than any minimum.
Tomes

Re: Prius seldom runs on batteries alone?
 

"Andrew Stephenson" wrote ...
> "who" writes:
>> Bill Tuthill wrote:
>>
>> > Driving 75-80 mph from San Jose to Los Angeles, my wife got about
>> > what you UK drivers get. Short trips are far worse for Prius mileage
>> > than excessive speeds.
>
>> It's stop and go driving where the hybrid technology gains, there's
>> little or no gain with steady high speed driving.
>> Sounds like it's not working properly.
>
> I read Bill's remarks as meaning "really short trips", like those
> which don't warm up the engine properly and give the mpg time for
> "recovery".

I read it the same way. The first few miles are always killer miles.
Tomes

Re: Prius seldom runs on batteries alone? - B Mode
 

"Ray O" wrote ...
> "Tomes" wrote ...
> <snipped>>
>>> "B" mode is somewhat less efficient than using the brakes, because it
>>> reduces regeneration. That doesn't make a huge difference, but just
>>> braking is easier, too. "B" mode is useful on long downhills,
>>> especially if the drop is more than 2000 ft. When the battery is fully
>>> charged the friction brakes start getting wear.
>>>
>>
>> OK, I know I have read this, and what I have read has not always been
>> the same thing. In your words, what exactly does 'B' mode do and how?
>> Thanks.
>> Tomes
>
> According to the faq section at www.toyota.com:
> "B" is the position for engine braking. Engine braking assists the
> brakes in slowing the vehicle. It serves a similar function to
> downshifting on an automatic transmission. This position is intended
> for going down long declines, and utilizes the electric motor to slow
> the vehicle and regenerate electricity. For more information please
> reference Section 2 of your Owner's Manual.
>
OK, that's what I thought. It uses the electric motor in reverse to
generate electricity stored in the batteries. The IC engine remains out
of the picture. Now my next question is does it generate more or less
than in normal mode?
Tomes

Re: Prius seldom runs on batteries alone? - B Mode
 

"Tomes" <askme@here.net> wrote in message
news:QmnCh.3424$x74.109@newsread4.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
> "Ray O" wrote ...
>> "Tomes" wrote ...
>>
>> According to the faq section at www.toyota.com:
>> "B" is the position for engine braking. Engine braking assists the
>> brakes in slowing the vehicle. It serves a similar function to
>> downshifting on an automatic transmission. This position is intended for
>> going down long declines, and utilizes the electric motor to slow the
>> vehicle and regenerate electricity. For more information please
>> reference Section 2 of your Owner's Manual.
>>
> OK, that's what I thought. It uses the electric motor in reverse to
> generate electricity stored in the batteries. The IC engine remains out
> of the picture. Now my next question is does it generate more or less
> than in normal mode?
> Tomes
>

I think that's backward - it dumps energy into turning the engine rather
than into the battery. Maybe MRV can explain it more clearly. She does that
sort of thing so well :-) People who have monitored the battery current with
the Ecrostech Miniscanner (http://tinyurl.com/2yvbrx) report less
regeneration in "B." I've never actually checked myself, but if you want
numbers I can do that.

Mike