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Psychic Wednesday???
Some people are slow.
Some people eventually catch on. Some people won't admit it though. Some people will, that is when forced to. Accidently tuned in to Montel and yep, Wednesday is psychic awright. Now... What can one do about a crank pulley bolt that's snapped off? No, I didn't do it! Yes, I inherited the engine (which appears to be good otherwise on strip down). TIA JT (Dreading a trip to the machine shop...) |
Re: Psychic Wednesday???
Grumpy AuContraire <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote in news:B9bTh.35458
$VU4.32109@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net: > Some people are slow. > > Some people eventually catch on. > > Some people won't admit it though. > > Some people will, that is when forced to. > > Accidently tuned in to Montel and yep, Wednesday is psychic awright. > > Now... What can one do about a crank pulley bolt that's snapped off? > > No, I didn't do it! > > Yes, I inherited the engine (which appears to be good otherwise on strip > down). > > TIA > > JT > > > (Dreading a trip to the machine shop...) > Shouldn't be a problem. Try drifting the remnant counter-clockwise with a sharp drift and a hammer. With the bolt head gone, all the torque is off the threads anyway, -- Tegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ |
Pulley Bolt Snapo Snafu [was Re: Psychic Wednesday???]
"Tegger" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote
> Shouldn't be a problem. Try drifting the remnant > counter-clockwise with a > sharp drift and a hammer. > > With the bolt head gone, all the torque is off the threads > anyway, Isn't this counter to the theory (among some of us) that it's rust and debris etc. that result in the ridiculous torque often required to break the pulley bolt free? That is, I thought you for one strongly felt the pulley bolt was not actually in tension to the tune of some 500 ft-lbs. of torque (on some Hondas)? I am not as optimistic that this will come out easily without a lot of drilling. |
Re: Psychic Wednesday???
Tegger wrote:
> Grumpy AuContraire <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote in news:B9bTh.35458 > $VU4.32109@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net: > >> Some people are slow. >> >> Some people eventually catch on. >> >> Some people won't admit it though. >> >> Some people will, that is when forced to. >> >> Accidently tuned in to Montel and yep, Wednesday is psychic awright. >> >> Now... What can one do about a crank pulley bolt that's snapped off? >> >> No, I didn't do it! >> >> Yes, I inherited the engine (which appears to be good otherwise on strip >> down). >> >> TIA >> >> JT >> >> >> (Dreading a trip to the machine shop...) >>--------------------- > Shouldn't be a problem. Try drifting the remnant counter-clockwise with a > sharp drift and a hammer. > > With the bolt head gone, all the torque is off the threads anyway, ----------------------- At least that's true if Mr LockTite wasn't hanging around. 'Curly' |
Re: Psychic Wednesday???
Tegger wrote: > Grumpy AuContraire <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote in news:B9bTh.35458 > $VU4.32109@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net: > > >>Some people are slow. >> >>Some people eventually catch on. >> >>Some people won't admit it though. >> >>Some people will, that is when forced to. >> >>Accidently tuned in to Montel and yep, Wednesday is psychic awright. >> >>Now... What can one do about a crank pulley bolt that's snapped off? >> >>No, I didn't do it! >> >>Yes, I inherited the engine (which appears to be good otherwise on strip >>down). >> >>TIA >> >>JT >> >> >>(Dreading a trip to the machine shop...) >> > > > > > Shouldn't be a problem. Try drifting the remnant counter-clockwise with a > sharp drift and a hammer. > > With the bolt head gone, all the torque is off the threads anyway, > This technique often works except for the fact that this engine while not directly exposed to the weather sat in the car for nearly twelve years in this condition. BTW, when I swapped engines a couple of years ago, (I never noticed this as I had no immediate plans for this engine), the head had been off for the same amount of time and there was "some" rust in the two center cylinders where the pistons were near their lower limit of travel. I assumed the engine was stuck but when I removed the flywheel, I noticed the damned thing turning. It would only do about 1/3 of a revolution due to the rust buildup. Anyway, I put the engine in the back shed encased in a tarp for later activity. Yesterday was that day. It was such a nice day, I backed the Studebaker P/U to the shed door, carried the engine out to the tailgate and sanded (with #80 grit) down the rust in the two center cylinders. Within forty-five minutes, I had it freed up and quite frankly, cannot detect any cylinder damage. I was turning the crank via the flywheel bolts when I noticed the broken bolt in front. I am simply amazed at the elegant engineering that went into this engine design and it's ease of access, etc. Oh, All the pistons have a "impression" for either valve clearance or damage from valve contact which may have been why the car was taken off the road. I'll be attempting the prick punch method of removing the bolt remains this evening. Have a good one! JT |
Re: Pulley Bolt Snapo Snafu [was Re: Psychic Wednesday???]
Elle wrote: > "Tegger" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote > >>Shouldn't be a problem. Try drifting the remnant >>counter-clockwise with a >>sharp drift and a hammer. >> >>With the bolt head gone, all the torque is off the threads >>anyway, > > > Isn't this counter to the theory (among some of us) that > it's rust and debris etc. that result in the ridiculous > torque often required to break the pulley bolt free? > Well, yes and no. From the factory, I would assume that the bolt is tightened to spec which (to me) shouldn't be much more than 150 psi. I only tighten the (much larger) bolt on my Studebakers to 75 psi and have never lost one. Trash and debris would only be a factor if the bolt was removed and re-installed carelessly after the car was delivered. > That is, I thought you for one strongly felt the pulley bolt > was not actually in tension to the tune of some 500 ft-lbs. > of torque (on some Hondas)? > Not me - See above. > I am not as optimistic that this will come out easily > without a lot of drilling. > > If it's gonna come out, it'll be this evening. If it doesn't, I'll let the machine shop tackle it. JT |
Re: Pulley Bolt Snapo Snafu [was Re: Psychic Wednesday???]
"Grumpy AuContraire" <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote
E >> Isn't this counter to the theory (among some of us) that >> it's rust and debris etc. that result in the ridiculous >> torque often required to break the pulley bolt free? >> > > Well, yes and no. > > From the factory, I would assume that the bolt is > tightened to spec which (to me) shouldn't be much more > than 150 psi. I only tighten the (much larger) bolt on my > Studebakers to 75 psi and have never lost one. Trash and > debris would only be a factor if the bolt was removed and > re-installed carelessly after the car was delivered. What's your theory on why Honda automobile pulley bolts are notoriously tight when it comes time to change the timing belt? What year and make is this Honda, anyway? > If it's gonna come out, it'll be this evening. If it > doesn't, I'll let the machine shop tackle it. Be careful, darling older, smarter honda-luvin' brother. |
Re: Pulley Bolt Snapo Snafu [was Re: Psychic Wednesday???]
"Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote in
news:DscTh.136570$_73.86685@newsread2.news.pas.ear thlink.net: > "Tegger" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote >> Shouldn't be a problem. Try drifting the remnant >> counter-clockwise with a >> sharp drift and a hammer. >> >> With the bolt head gone, all the torque is off the threads >> anyway, > > Isn't this counter to the theory (among some of us) that > it's rust and debris etc. that result in the ridiculous > torque often required to break the pulley bolt free? > > That is, I thought you for one strongly felt the pulley bolt > was not actually in tension to the tune of some 500 ft-lbs. > of torque (on some Hondas)? > > I am not as optimistic that this will come out easily > without a lot of drilling. > > > at least SOME of the torque will no longer be needed,with compression gone form the assembly. (I'm not optimistic,either;it seems nothing is ever "easy" when working on older cars.) -- Jim Yanik jyanik at kua.net |
Re: Pulley Bolt Snapo Snafu [was Re: Psychic Wednesday???]
"Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote
> at least SOME of the torque will no longer be needed,with > compression gone > form the assembly. > (I'm not optimistic,either;it seems nothing is ever "easy" > when working on > older cars.) I'd have to think about it more. If it is debris, rust, heat cycling, etc. that causes adhesion over time between the male and female threads, it's a pseudo-torque that's been applied to the bolt. It's like a bolt was tightened to spec //and then// locktite somehow dripped on its threads. If the head shears off, is the torque required to deal with the locktite really going to be less? Not sure. |
Re: Pulley Bolt Snapo Snafu [was Re: Psychic Wednesday???]
Elle wrote: > "Grumpy AuContraire" <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote > E > >>>Isn't this counter to the theory (among some of us) that >>>it's rust and debris etc. that result in the ridiculous >>>torque often required to break the pulley bolt free? >>> >> >>Well, yes and no. >> >>From the factory, I would assume that the bolt is >>tightened to spec which (to me) shouldn't be much more >>than 150 psi. I only tighten the (much larger) bolt on my >>Studebakers to 75 psi and have never lost one. Trash and >>debris would only be a factor if the bolt was removed and >>re-installed carelessly after the car was delivered. > > > What's your theory on why Honda automobile pulley bolts are > notoriously tight when it comes time to change the timing > belt? > > What year and make is this Honda, anyway? > The engine is the original that was in the '83 Civic FE. If you recall, I replaced it with a running motah out of an '81 DX but used all the '83 accessories and attachments. > >>If it's gonna come out, it'll be this evening. If it >>doesn't, I'll let the machine shop tackle it. > > > Be careful, darling older, smarter honda-luvin' brother. > If it's gonna come out, it will do so easy. Otherwise, the whole schmeer will go to the machine shop next week. JT |
Re: Pulley Bolt Snapo Snafu [was Re: Psychic Wednesday???]
Jim Yanik wrote: > "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote in > news:DscTh.136570$_73.86685@newsread2.news.pas.ear thlink.net: > > >>"Tegger" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote >> >>>Shouldn't be a problem. Try drifting the remnant >>>counter-clockwise with a >>>sharp drift and a hammer. >>> >>>With the bolt head gone, all the torque is off the threads >>>anyway, >> >>Isn't this counter to the theory (among some of us) that >>it's rust and debris etc. that result in the ridiculous >>torque often required to break the pulley bolt free? >> >>That is, I thought you for one strongly felt the pulley bolt >>was not actually in tension to the tune of some 500 ft-lbs. >>of torque (on some Hondas)? >> >>I am not as optimistic that this will come out easily >>without a lot of drilling. >> >> >> > > > at least SOME of the torque will no longer be needed,with compression gone > form the assembly. > (I'm not optimistic,either;it seems nothing is ever "easy" when working on > older cars.) > It always seems to be that last bolt or fasterner... <grrrrr> JT |
Re: Pulley Bolt Snapo Snafu [was Re: Psychic Wednesday???]
Elle wrote: > "Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote > >>at least SOME of the torque will no longer be needed,with >>compression gone >>form the assembly. >>(I'm not optimistic,either;it seems nothing is ever "easy" >>when working on >>older cars.) > > > I'd have to think about it more. If it is debris, rust, heat > cycling, etc. that causes adhesion over time between the > male and female threads, it's a pseudo-torque that's been > applied to the bolt. It's like a bolt was tightened to spec > //and then// locktite somehow dripped on its threads. If the > head shears off, is the torque required to deal with the > locktite really going to be less? Not sure. > > Generally speaking, a bolt/screw that sheared because of over torquing usually comes out pretty easy. The ol' prick punch method usually works best and I strongly recommend to NEVER use an "easy out." If that breaks, you're in deep doo doo... JT |
Re: Psychic Wednesday???
Grumpy AuContraire <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote in
news:PrdTh.284544$5j1.237709@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net: > > > Tegger wrote: >>> >> >> >> >> >> Shouldn't be a problem. Try drifting the remnant counter-clockwise >> with a sharp drift and a hammer. >> >> With the bolt head gone, all the torque is off the threads anyway, >> > > > This technique often works except for the fact that this engine while > not directly exposed to the weather sat in the car for nearly twelve > years in this condition. Ooh. That could complicate things. However...an air chisel will still drive it around very nicely even if corroded. Any garage with air tools should be able to do this for you. Unless it's really caked up, the air chisel should spin it off in seconds. > > Oh, All the pistons have a "impression" for either valve clearance or > damage from valve contact which may have been why the car was taken > off the road. Check the crank bearings. Excessive wear will allow the pistons to travel too far upwards. IF the pistons are contacting the valves, the valves will almost certainly be bent. -- Tegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ |
Re: Pulley Bolt Snapo Snafu [was Re: Psychic Wednesday???]
"Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote in
news:8AdTh.20514$PL.7720@newsread4.news.pas.earthl ink.net: > "Grumpy AuContraire" <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote > E >>> Isn't this counter to the theory (among some of us) that >>> it's rust and debris etc. that result in the ridiculous >>> torque often required to break the pulley bolt free? There's no "theory" involved. The cause is simple embedment. Not only have I been told this by engineers whose specialty is fasteners, but HONDA SAYS SO, TOO: http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/hsn_feb-93.pdf -- Tegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ |
Re: Pulley Bolt Snapo Snafu [was Re: Psychic Wednesday???]
"Tegger" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote
> The cause is simple embedment. > > Not only have I been told this by engineers whose > specialty is > fasteners, We already went over this, and the guy was not absolutely sure. > but HONDA SAYS SO, TOO: > http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/hsn_feb-93.pdf This only says two to three times the installation torque may be required to remove the bolt, not why. I am not rejecting the theory. I am saying I don't know for sure the cause. |
Re: Psychic Wednesday???
Tegger wrote: > Grumpy AuContraire <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote in > news:PrdTh.284544$5j1.237709@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net: > > >> >>Tegger wrote: > > >>> >>> >>> >>>Shouldn't be a problem. Try drifting the remnant counter-clockwise >>>with a sharp drift and a hammer. >>> >>>With the bolt head gone, all the torque is off the threads anyway, >>> >> >> >>This technique often works except for the fact that this engine while >>not directly exposed to the weather sat in the car for nearly twelve >>years in this condition. > > > > > Ooh. That could complicate things. > > However...an air chisel will still drive it around very nicely even if > corroded. Any garage with air tools should be able to do this for you. > Unless it's really caked up, the air chisel should spin it off in > seconds. > > > > >>Oh, All the pistons have a "impression" for either valve clearance or >>damage from valve contact which may have been why the car was taken >>off the road. > > It twisted off deep in the recess and it was a "no go" with the centerpunch technique. I'll drop the shaft off to the machine shop next week. > > > Check the crank bearings. Excessive wear will allow the pistons to > travel too far upwards. > I don't think so in this case as the engine had only 110K and there is no detectable ridge at the top of the cylinders. In fact, even sanding down the rust with 80 grit doesn't seem to hurt the cylinder walls. That puppy might get by with a honing and new rings/rod bearings. > IF the pistons are contacting the valves, the valves will almost > certainly be bent. > I have the head which was supposedly rebuilt. Maybe I should send you some pix of the piston tops. I've never run into the valve/piston fracas when a timing belt snaps. JT |
Re: Pulley Bolt Snapo Snafu [was Re: Psychic Wednesday???]
"Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote in news:zDfTh.21776
$tD2.12088@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net: > "Tegger" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote >> The cause is simple embedment. >> >> Not only have I been told this by engineers whose >> specialty is >> fasteners, > > We already went over this, and the guy was not absolutely > sure. > >> but HONDA SAYS SO, TOO: >> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/hsn_feb-93.pdf > > This only says two to three times the installation torque > may be required to remove the bolt, not why. It says the reason is the bolt sticks to the crankshaft threads. That's "embedment". It's not a "theory", but established fact, and a well-known phenomenon. -- Tegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ |
Re: Psychic Wednesday???
Grumpy AuContraire <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote in
news:i0gTh.36169$VU4.5659@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net: > > > Tegger wrote: >> Grumpy AuContraire <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote in >> news:PrdTh.284544$5j1.237709@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net: >> >> >>> >>>Tegger wrote: >> >> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>Shouldn't be a problem. Try drifting the remnant counter-clockwise >>>>with a sharp drift and a hammer. >>>> >>>>With the bolt head gone, all the torque is off the threads anyway, >>>> >>> >>> >>>This technique often works except for the fact that this engine while >>>not directly exposed to the weather sat in the car for nearly twelve >>>years in this condition. >> >> >> >> >> Ooh. That could complicate things. >> >> However...an air chisel will still drive it around very nicely even >> if corroded. Any garage with air tools should be able to do this for >> you. Unless it's really caked up, the air chisel should spin it off >> in seconds. >> >> >> >> >>>Oh, All the pistons have a "impression" for either valve clearance or >>>damage from valve contact which may have been why the car was taken >>>off the road. >> >> > > It twisted off deep in the recess and it was a "no go" with the > centerpunch technique. I'll drop the shaft off to the machine shop > next week. Broke off too deep to be able to get a good run at it, I guess? > I have the head which was supposedly rebuilt. Maybe I should send you > some pix of the piston tops. I'd like to see the recesses you mention. > I've never run into the valve/piston > fracas when a timing belt snaps. > I haven't, personally, either. I have personally known of two Honda engines that suffered no damage when the belt broke (Civic and CR-V). -- Tegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ |
Re: Psychic Wednesday???
"Grumpy AuContraire" <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote in message
news:i0gTh.36169$VU4.5659@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > > > Tegger wrote: >> Grumpy AuContraire <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote in >> news:PrdTh.284544$5j1.237709@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net: >>> >>>Tegger wrote: >> >> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>Shouldn't be a problem. Try drifting the remnant counter-clockwise >>>>with a sharp drift and a hammer. >>>> >>>>With the bolt head gone, all the torque is off the threads anyway, >>>> >>> >>> >>>This technique often works except for the fact that this engine while not >>>directly exposed to the weather sat in the car for nearly twelve years in >>>this condition. >> >> >> >> >> Ooh. That could complicate things. >> >> However...an air chisel will still drive it around very nicely even if >> corroded. Any garage with air tools should be able to do this for you. >> Unless it's really caked up, the air chisel should spin it off in >> seconds. >>>Oh, All the pistons have a "impression" for either valve clearance or >>>damage from valve contact which may have been why the car was taken >>>off the road. >> >> > > It twisted off deep in the recess and it was a "no go" with the > centerpunch technique. I'll drop the shaft off to the machine shop next > week. > > >> >> >> Check the crank bearings. Excessive wear will allow the pistons to >> travel too far upwards. > > I don't think so in this case as the engine had only 110K and there is no > detectable ridge at the top of the cylinders. In fact, even sanding down > the rust with 80 grit doesn't seem to hurt the cylinder walls. That puppy > might get by with a honing and new rings/rod bearings. > > > >> IF the pistons are contacting the valves, the valves will almost >> certainly be bent. > > I have the head which was supposedly rebuilt. Maybe I should send you > some pix of the piston tops. I've never run into the valve/piston fracas > when a timing belt snaps. > > JT > It's a little spooky for obvious reasons, but when I had trouble with an alternator support bolt breaking off recessed in my really old Volvo (don't ask) I had success epoxying a nut to the end of the bolt. I prepped the location by spraying with brake cleaner. I put a dab of quick set epoxy putty in the center of the nut and left it extending out a bit, then pressed it into place and held it there a few minutes. I did let it set overnight before putting a wrench on it, though. Easy does it! Short of that you can try duct tape on the back of a socket to fit in the hole, but I never got enough traction with that. Never tried a left-hand drill. Mike |
Re: Psychic Wednesday???
Tegger wrote: > Grumpy AuContraire <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote in > news:i0gTh.36169$VU4.5659@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net: > > >> >>Tegger wrote: >> >>>Grumpy AuContraire <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote in >>>news:PrdTh.284544$5j1.237709@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net: >>> >>> >>> >>>>Tegger wrote: >>> >>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Shouldn't be a problem. Try drifting the remnant counter-clockwise >>>>>with a sharp drift and a hammer. >>>>> >>>>>With the bolt head gone, all the torque is off the threads anyway, >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>This technique often works except for the fact that this engine while >>>>not directly exposed to the weather sat in the car for nearly twelve >>>>years in this condition. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>Ooh. That could complicate things. >>> >>>However...an air chisel will still drive it around very nicely even >>>if corroded. Any garage with air tools should be able to do this for >>>you. Unless it's really caked up, the air chisel should spin it off >>>in seconds. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>Oh, All the pistons have a "impression" for either valve clearance or >>>>damage from valve contact which may have been why the car was taken >>>>off the road. >>> >>> >>It twisted off deep in the recess and it was a "no go" with the >>centerpunch technique. I'll drop the shaft off to the machine shop >>next week. > > > > > Broke off too deep to be able to get a good run at it, I guess? > > Not so much that but it's not budging. I'm simply distorting what's left even more. In my earlier days, I would have found out exactly what the dimensions of the shank minus thread were, got a drill bit slightly smaller and attempted to drill it out and retap (clean the threads) myself. But I'm far too lazy to do that now. I suspect that the crank itself is fine and within tolerance for a new set of standard bearings. I'll send a pix of the piston tops later today. JT (Now if this was the Studebaker group, I'd just post 'em right here..) |
Re: Psychic Wednesday???
Michael Pardee wrote: > "Grumpy AuContraire" <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote in message > news:i0gTh.36169$VU4.5659@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > >> >>Tegger wrote: >> >>>Grumpy AuContraire <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote in >>>news:PrdTh.284544$5j1.237709@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net: >>> >>>>Tegger wrote: >>> >>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Shouldn't be a problem. Try drifting the remnant counter-clockwise >>>>>with a sharp drift and a hammer. >>>>> >>>>>With the bolt head gone, all the torque is off the threads anyway, >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>This technique often works except for the fact that this engine while not >>>>directly exposed to the weather sat in the car for nearly twelve years in >>>>this condition. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>Ooh. That could complicate things. >>> >>>However...an air chisel will still drive it around very nicely even if >>>corroded. Any garage with air tools should be able to do this for you. >>>Unless it's really caked up, the air chisel should spin it off in >>>seconds. >>> >>>>Oh, All the pistons have a "impression" for either valve clearance or >>>>damage from valve contact which may have been why the car was taken >>>>off the road. >>> >>> >>It twisted off deep in the recess and it was a "no go" with the >>centerpunch technique. I'll drop the shaft off to the machine shop next >>week. >> >> >> >>> >>>Check the crank bearings. Excessive wear will allow the pistons to >>>travel too far upwards. >> >>I don't think so in this case as the engine had only 110K and there is no >>detectable ridge at the top of the cylinders. In fact, even sanding down >>the rust with 80 grit doesn't seem to hurt the cylinder walls. That puppy >>might get by with a honing and new rings/rod bearings. >> >> >> >> >>>IF the pistons are contacting the valves, the valves will almost >>>certainly be bent. >> >>I have the head which was supposedly rebuilt. Maybe I should send you >>some pix of the piston tops. I've never run into the valve/piston fracas >>when a timing belt snaps. >> >>JT >> > > > It's a little spooky for obvious reasons, but when I had trouble with an > alternator support bolt breaking off recessed in my really old Volvo (don't > ask) I had success epoxying a nut to the end of the bolt. I prepped the > location by spraying with brake cleaner. I put a dab of quick set epoxy > putty in the center of the nut and left it extending out a bit, then pressed > it into place and held it there a few minutes. I did let it set overnight > before putting a wrench on it, though. Easy does it! > > Short of that you can try duct tape on the back of a socket to fit in the > hole, but I never got enough traction with that. Never tried a left-hand > drill. > > Mike > That's what I'd call livin' close to the edge! If you have anything that breaks off and needs a weld-like repair with real strength properties, try Devcon titanium putty. When I freshend the engine in my Studebaker P/U ten years ago, the pan was like Swiss cheese. I spent an evening cleaning it out, coated the entire inside with a skim coat of Devcon and it still is holding up ten years later. I don't know what you mean by a "left hand" drill. If one drills a bolt out, a conventional drill is used. I got my experience years ago in aircraft manufacturing having had to drill out lots of rivets/fasteners. So much so, I don't like doing anymore! JT |
Re: Psychic Wednesday???
"Grumpy AuContraire" <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote in message
news:6hsTh.37877$VU4.22572@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > > > I don't know what you mean by a "left hand" drill. If one drills a bolt > out, a conventional drill is used. I got my experience years ago in > aircraft manufacturing having had to drill out lots of rivets/fasteners. > So much so, I don't like doing anymore! > > JT > > Tool stores sometimes carry drills (the part that contacts the work, as opposed to the motor piece) that turn CCW in use instead of CW. Example at http://tinyurl.com/2zqy4y They are often used to drill pilot holes for easy-outs, but sometimes just the drag and occasional grab will unscrew bolts... say those who have used them. Mike |
Re: Psychic Wednesday???
"Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in
news:3_GdncjS8sdI4YPbnZ2dnUVZ_rSjnZ2d@sedona.net: > "Grumpy AuContraire" <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote in message > news:6hsTh.37877$VU4.22572@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... >> >> >> I don't know what you mean by a "left hand" drill. If one drills a >> bolt out, a conventional drill is used. I got my experience years >> ago in aircraft manufacturing having had to drill out lots of >> rivets/fasteners. So much so, I don't like doing anymore! >> >> JT >> >> > > Tool stores sometimes carry drills (the part that contacts the work, > as opposed to the motor piece) that turn CCW in use instead of CW. > Example at http://tinyurl.com/2zqy4y They are often used to drill > pilot holes for easy-outs, but sometimes just the drag and occasional > grab will unscrew bolts... say those who have used them. > > Mike > > > > drill BITS is the word you're looking for. I've used RH bits before to drill out broken bolts and had the bit turn the piece out the back side of the work. As far as easyouts go,the newer sort that are short and have a shoulder are supposed to work the best.I never had much luck with the standard kind of easyout.It seems like screwing them in expands the bolt around the hole you just drilled,and makes it harder to turn out. -- Jim Yanik jyanik at kua.net |
Re: Psychic Wednesday???
"Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in message
news:Xns9910AF543120Ejyanikkuanet@64.209.0.87... > > drill BITS is the word you're looking for. Now, my old wood shop teacher was adamant that "bits" were the wood boring devices used with a brace; they have a flat face, centering point and cutting points at the ends of the face. What we are talking about, he insisted, are "twist drills" and are used with a "drill motor." :-) Of course, everybody knows them as drill bits, but I just know he's lurking with a ruler to rap my knuckles if I betray his teaching. I also have had very limited success with easyouts. The grip never seems to match the tightness of the bolt. I've seen the newer type you describe but haven't tried one. Mike |
Re: Psychic Wednesday???
Michael Pardee wrote: > "Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in message > news:Xns9910AF543120Ejyanikkuanet@64.209.0.87... > >>drill BITS is the word you're looking for. > > > Now, my old wood shop teacher was adamant that "bits" were the wood boring > devices used with a brace; they have a flat face, centering point and > cutting points at the ends of the face. What we are talking about, he > insisted, are "twist drills" and are used with a "drill motor." :-) Of > course, everybody knows them as drill bits, but I just know he's lurking > with a ruler to rap my knuckles if I betray his teaching. > The same vernacular was used in my early days of aerospace manufacturing. The best drill "motors" were pnuematic as they had very good throttling control which is need when drilling out rivet heads to drive the rest through the work. Of course, the desired result is to install rivets to spec correctly the first time... > I also have had very limited success with easyouts. The grip never seems to > match the tightness of the bolt. I've seen the newer type you describe but > haven't tried one. > > This project will be going to the machine shop Monday morning for removal of the crank bolt. Upon teardown today, all of the bearings appeard perfect as did the crank shaft and I'm going to see how the cylinders clean up. JT |
Re: Psychic Wednesday???
Tegger wrote: > Grumpy AuContraire <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote in > news:i0gTh.36169$VU4.5659@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net: > > >> >>Tegger wrote: >> >>>Grumpy AuContraire <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote in >>>news:PrdTh.284544$5j1.237709@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net: >>> >>> >>> >>>>Tegger wrote: >>> >>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Shouldn't be a problem. Try drifting the remnant counter-clockwise >>>>>with a sharp drift and a hammer. >>>>> >>>>>With the bolt head gone, all the torque is off the threads anyway, >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>This technique often works except for the fact that this engine while >>>>not directly exposed to the weather sat in the car for nearly twelve >>>>years in this condition. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>Ooh. That could complicate things. >>> >>>However...an air chisel will still drive it around very nicely even >>>if corroded. Any garage with air tools should be able to do this for >>>you. Unless it's really caked up, the air chisel should spin it off >>>in seconds. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>Oh, All the pistons have a "impression" for either valve clearance or >>>>damage from valve contact which may have been why the car was taken >>>>off the road. >>> >>> >>It twisted off deep in the recess and it was a "no go" with the >>centerpunch technique. I'll drop the shaft off to the machine shop >>next week. > > > > > Broke off too deep to be able to get a good run at it, I guess? > > > > >>I have the head which was supposedly rebuilt. Maybe I should send you >>some pix of the piston tops. > > > > I'd like to see the recesses you mention. > > I pulled the pistons today complete with rods. I'll take a pix in the morning and send 'em to you but it sure looks like factory to me. Interesting note. All of the top rings were stuck which is not to be unexpected since this thing say with the head off of it for over ten years. It seems that the top compression rings are "thinner" than the second ring. IOW, the second ring will not fit into the top groove. I find this very strange. Have you heard of such? JT |
$200 Honda Civic Salvage Update, was: Psychic Wednesday???
Just to bring y'all up to date, Tegger and I did some off line
conversing and it appears that 1982/83 1300 engines did have two different compression ring thickness as follows: Top ring - 1mm and 2nd ring - 1.2mm. Called Majestic and while they are available, they are on back order so who knows how long. Fortunately, found a set on eBay that specified the above dimensions and snagged 'em for $50 including shipping and insurance. Needless to say, my big overhaul project scheduled for last Saturday got pushed back but as soon as the rings come in, I'll hopefully be back on (some sort of) schedule. The scheme is to use the pistons/rods out of the '83 which is a five speed with 110K and put them into the $200 '82 bare bones Civic wonder that has nearly zero compression on #1 and sucks up about a quart of oil per 200 miles. One guy whined that I killed all his mosquitoes and I just replied, "No Charge!" The second part is to rehab the original FE engine with new pistons, rings and bearings and eventually reinstall it into that car. Then the '81 engine can be resealed and held as a spare on standby should the worst happen... JT (Who refuses to enter the 21st century regarding transportation...) |
Pulley Bolt Snapo Sanfu... It's Out!
Dropped the shaft off at the machine shop and by the time I got home,
there was a message that the bolt was removed. Turned out, he simply used a little "easy out lube" and it spun right out. No charge to boot. These guys came highly recommended for work on smaller engines from the folks at my regular machine shop that does traditional/vintage engine work. I'll probably take the bare block over to have 'em look at it as I think it will clean up fine with honing. Life is good... JT |
Re: Pulley Bolt Snapo Sanfu... It's Out!
Grumpy AuContraire <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote in
news:gbrVh.55929$VU4.10581@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net: > Dropped the shaft off at the machine shop and by the time I got home, > there was a message that the bolt was removed. > > Turned out, he simply used a little "easy out lube" "Easy out lube"? Sounds naughty. Any details on this potion? -- Tegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ |
Re: Pulley Bolt Snapo Sanfu... It's Out!
Tegger wrote: > Grumpy AuContraire <Grumpy@ExtraGrumpyville.com> wrote in > news:gbrVh.55929$VU4.10581@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net: > > >>Dropped the shaft off at the machine shop and by the time I got home, >>there was a message that the bolt was removed. >> >>Turned out, he simply used a little "easy out lube" > > > > > "Easy out lube"? Sounds naughty. Any details on this potion? > > K-Y U wanna no??? I'll have more info tomorrow as I'll be picking it up and having my freshly honed cylinders inspected at the same time. I feel like a kid shooting marbles on an uneven slope! JT |
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