Question about fuel injectors
 

Car is 1995 Accord with AT, odometer reads 155,000. Actual mileage is
about 170,000 since the odometer died at 155,000.

Car starts only with the pedal pressed. According to Tegger’s site we
have leaking injectors.

I am going to clean EGR passage (check engine light is on) and the
fuel rail along with injectors will come off. How do I deal with
them? Is it possible to clean/repair them, or do I need to buy new
ones? Will I be able to tell which one leaks?

Thanks in advance,
Sam

Re: Question about fuel injectors
 

somick wrote:
> Car is 1995 Accord with AT, odometer reads 155,000. Actual mileage is
> about 170,000 since the odometer died at 155,000.

easy enough to repair - get the parts from a junk yard.


>
> Car starts only with the pedal pressed. According to Tegger�s site we
> have leaking injectors.
>
> I am going to clean EGR passage (check engine light is on) and the
> fuel rail along with injectors will come off. How do I deal with
> them? Is it possible to clean/repair them, or do I need to buy new
> ones? Will I be able to tell which one leaks?
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Sam


whatever you do, do NOT try to physically clean those injectors - use
liquid injector cleaner with the fuel and that will solve your problem.
you may need two tanks, but it will work. use a quality cleaner, not
cheapo stuff.

in the future, don't buy discount gasoline. not only will you not have
injectors gum up like this, you'll get better mileage because an engine
with cleaner internals is more efficient.

Re: Question about fuel injectors
 

somick <sam.libman@gmail.com> wrote in news:abe31b29-fdde-4b3e-8573-
03cb093f8e50@j68g2000hsf.googlegroups.com:

> Car is 1995 Accord with AT, odometer reads 155,000. Actual mileage is
> about 170,000 since the odometer died at 155,000.
>
> Car starts only with the pedal pressed. According to Tegger’s site we
> have leaking injectors.



Any more details to offer? What you've given so far is way too skimpy.



>
> I am going to clean EGR passage (check engine light is on)



With what code? This is not trivial, you know.

Is this a V6 or an L4? I'm guessing a 4.



> and the
> fuel rail along with injectors will come off. How do I deal with
> them? Is it possible to clean/repair them, or do I need to buy new
> ones?



Do not buy new injectors. They cost close to $300 each for OEM. Keihin
injectors do NOT go bad.



> Will I be able to tell which one leaks?


Only if you push them back into the rail and visually see if they leak.

Lay a towel down on the manifold. Place the rail on the towel with the
injectors installed into the rail (tie them well in place so they don't pop
out! 40psi fuel pressure! BIG mess!). Turn the key to "II" for two seconds,
then turn it to "0". Do this several times in succession. Any gas-smelling
dark spots on the towel that appear to come from the pintle area?


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: Question about fuel injectors
 

Tegger, you rock!
>
> With what code? This is not trivial, you know.

I guess I rushed to judgment!!!

The car belongs to my son and the EGR trouble code was just passed on
to me. I tested the system on Wednesday but did not find anything
wrong.

I was going to read codes myself but with 102 degrees outside I just
quit.

I will read codes this weekend and report back.
>
> Is this a V6 or an L4? I'm guessing a 4.

Sorry, forgot to mention it. Yes this is 4 cylinder.
>

>
> Do not buy new injectors. They cost close to $300 each for OEM. Keihin
> injectors do NOT go bad.
>
> > Will I be able to tell which one leaks?
>
> Only if you push them back into the rail and visually see if they leak.
>
> Lay a towel down on the manifold. Place the rail on the towel with the
> injectors installed into the rail (tie them well in place so they don't pop
> out! 40psi fuel pressure! BIG mess!). Turn the key to "II" for two seconds,
> then turn it to "0". Do this several times in succession. Any gas-smelling
> dark spots on the towel that appear to come from the pintle area?
>
I will do that.
> Tegger
>

Thank you, again!

I will post back as soon as I get more information.

Sam

Re: Question about fuel injectors
 

>
> whatever you do, do NOT try to physically clean those injectors - use
> liquid injector cleaner with the fuel and that will solve your problem.
> you may need two tanks, but it will work. use a quality cleaner, not
> cheapo stuff.

Thanks for advice.

This car belongs to my son. He used Chevron with Techron and said
that it helped a little. Do not really know what that meant.
>
> in the future, don't buy discount gasoline. not only will you not have
> injectors gum up like this, you'll get better mileage because an engine
> with cleaner internals is more efficient.

Well, I cannot promise that. Like I said this car belongs to my son.
This car was mistreated as much as it only possible: no maintenance,
no oil changes, you name it...
I guess it is still on the road only because this it Honda...

Re: Question about fuel injectors
 

somick <sam.libman@gmail.com> wrote in
news:63562876-48aa-44bc-b04a-8302b42433d9@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com:

> Tegger, you rock!
>>
>> With what code? This is not trivial, you know.
>
> I guess I rushed to judgment!!!
>
> The car belongs to my son and the EGR trouble code was just passed on
> to me. I tested the system on Wednesday but did not find anything
> wrong.
>
> I was going to read codes myself but with 102 degrees outside I just
> quit.
>
> I will read codes this weekend and report back.
>>
>> Is this a V6 or an L4? I'm guessing a 4.
>
> Sorry, forgot to mention it. Yes this is 4 cylinder.
>>
>
>>
>> Do not buy new injectors. They cost close to $300 each for OEM.
>> Keihin injectors do NOT go bad.
>>
>> > Will I be able to tell which one leaks?
>>
>> Only if you push them back into the rail and visually see if they
>> leak.
>>
>> Lay a towel down on the manifold. Place the rail on the towel with
>> the injectors installed into the rail (tie them well in place so they
>> don't pop out! 40psi fuel pressure! BIG mess!). Turn the key to "II"
>> for two seconds, then turn it to "0". Do this several times in
>> succession. Any gas-smelling dark spots on the towel that appear to
>> come from the pintle area?
>>
> I will do that.
>> Tegger
>>
>
> Thank you, again!
>
> I will post back as soon as I get more information.
>
> Sam
>
>



I should point out something rather important that I just remembered...
You might not have leaky injectors at all, but instead a fuel pump with
a faulty check valve. A bad check valve allows fuel pressure to bleed
off back into the tank over time, resulting in low fuel rail pressure on
cranking.

Try this test before pulling everything apart:
1) Turn key to "II" and leave it until Check Engine light goes off
(2 seconds), then turn back to "0".
2) Repeat this five or six times in quick succession.
3) Try to start the engine.
Does the engine now start normally? Then fuel rail pressure is probably
bleeding off too fast, and you need to have a fuel pressure leakdown
test done.

If the above test has no effect, then do the towel test. And use soft
wire to tie the injectors in place. You can get cheap rolls of soft wire
at Michaels (the craft store your wife shops at) in the beading section.
The beading section is at the front left side of the store (can you tell
I'm married?).

--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: Question about fuel injectors
 

Checked the code. Now I know where the confusion came from:

I got 8 blinks. They looked short to me. My son most likely mistook
them for long ones. How would long blinks differ from short ones?

8 long blinks - code 80: EGR system malfunction.

8 short blinks - code 8: Top Dead Sensor position sensor.

As far as I understand this is a bad distributor. So the question
is: Could the bad distributor cause flooding conditions?

Second question is: if I am correct and this is a bad distributor, is
it possible to fix it or do I need a new/rebuilt one?

Thank you all,

Sam

Re: Question about fuel injectors
 

somick wrote:
> Checked the code. Now I know where the confusion came from:
>
> I got 8 blinks. They looked short to me. My son most likely mistook
> them for long ones. How would long blinks differ from short ones?
>
> 8 long blinks - code 80: EGR system malfunction.
>
> 8 short blinks - code 8: Top Dead Sensor position sensor.
>
> As far as I understand this is a bad distributor. So the question
> is: Could the bad distributor cause flooding conditions?
>
> Second question is: if I am correct and this is a bad distributor, is
> it possible to fix it or do I need a new/rebuilt one?
>
> Thank you all,
>
> Sam

no, won't affect the injectors. and usually, the car won't start if it
doesn't know where tdc is - the ecu can't sequence the injectors.

go back to injector cleaner, make sure the plugs are in good condition,
along with the rest of the ignition system, /then/ worry about the egr
system, a much more likely and common fault on older accords.

Re: Question about fuel injectors
 

"somick" <sam.libman@gmail.com> wrote
> Checked the code. Now I know where the confusion came
> from:
>
> I got 8 blinks. They looked short to me. My son most
> likely mistook
> them for long ones. How would long blinks differ from
> short ones?

If you think they are short ones, then they probably are by
Honda's definition of "short" too. I would call the short
blinks more like quick flashes.

> 8 long blinks - code 80: EGR system malfunction.
>
> 8 short blinks - code 8: Top Dead Sensor position sensor.
>
> As far as I understand this is a bad distributor. So the
> question
> is: Could the bad distributor cause flooding conditions?

From my reading, I sure would not rule out a bad TDC sensor
for your Accord's symptoms. Especially if the code clearly
is 8 short blinks. The TDC sensor determines injector timing
for each cylinder.

I would next do the resistance and continuity checks of the
sensor per
http://media.honda.co.uk/car/owner/m...N700.pdf?flv=9

> Second question is: if I am correct and this is a bad
> distributor, is
> it possible to fix it or do I need a new/rebuilt one?

Your Accord is old enough that a new distributor housing
(not a whole new distributor) may very well be warranted.
The distributor housing holds the TDC, CYL, and CKP sensors.
Better news is that a new housing may fix both the start
problem and any low fuel mileage problem your Accord is
having. My sense is that these sensors either wear (in
particular, the coils they use to operate) or get very dirty
over many years and do degrade in performance over time. A
whole new distributor housing will run you around $300 at
online OEM parts sites. You have to move the cap, rotor,
igniter and ignition coil from the old distributor to the
new one. If you are handy with cars, it is not too bad a job
the first time.

If you go this route, buy only OEM parts here. I am frugal
and learned the hard way they pay for themselves.

Also: I replaced the fairly famous bearing in the housing of
my 93 Civic's dizzy a few weeks ago, rather clumsily on the
first attempt. Specifically I messed up the alignment of the
CYP sensor's coil and reluctor, and my Civic threw a code.
It ran, but the code was there. On a hunch, I re-aligned the
sensor and was able to get rid of the code. In your case, I
think it's possible something is actually broken, like the
TDC sensor's coil.

My 91 Civic's original dizzy housing pretty much gave up the
ghost (a number of symptoms suggesting it would be prudent
to change it) after 12 years.

Re: Question about fuel injectors
 

Checked TDC sensor according to the FSM. It has 27 kilohm instead of
300 ohm. I apparently need a new distributor housing.
I am still not ready to shed 300 dollars, but in doubt there is
anything else I can do. Majestic's Honda price is $258 plus shipping
is cheapest I was able to find.

I will let everybody know what happens next.

Thanks for help,

Sam

Re: Question about fuel injectors
 

"somick" <sam.libman@gmail.com> wrote
> Checked TDC sensor according to the FSM. It has 27 kilohm
> instead of
> 300 ohm. I apparently need a new distributor housing.
> I am still not ready to shed 300 dollars, but in doubt
> there is
> anything else I can do. Majestic's Honda price is $258
> plus shipping
> is cheapest I was able to find.

I am assuming you checked and re-checked that resistance
reading.

If you have the time and inclination, you might be able to
replace just the sensor coil. I know at least one of the
three sensor coils comes out easily. See my chatter about
the CYP sensor coil at
http://honda.lioness.googlepages.com/distributorbearing.

On the other hand, assuming you want to keep the car at
least five more years or so, then the $300 or so you'd spend
on a new housing may be a good investment. It should really
improve the car's performance, mileage and other ways. Plus
it is easy to do. The options below are more for the
hobbyist.

If you do not plan to keep this Accord much longer, then you
could buy an aftermarket distributor housing for about $175
at your local Autozone. You get not only the housing but a
new igniter and coil, too, in this case. Also check on the
warranty. Last I heard for some Autozone parts, you can just
keep replacing them and replacing them without extra charge.

Final option: Buy a second hand distributor housing at a
junkyard. You could do the resistance and continuity checks
before purchase. Plus typically if you want to exchange the
part and try another, you have 30 days or so to do so.

Re: Question about fuel injectors
 

Thank you, elle
>
> I am assuming you checked and re-checked that resistance
> reading.

I will definitely do it again before spending 300 dollars.
>

> the CYP sensor coil athttp://honda.lioness.googlepages.com/distributorbearing.

Thanks for the link. I bookmarked it.
>
I will research all the options I have but I most likely inclined to
buying a cheap stuff and get rid of the car in a couple of years.

Thanks again,

Sam

Re: Question about fuel injectors
 

Thank you, elle
>
> I am assuming you checked and re-checked that resistance
> reading.

I will definitely do it again before spending 300 dollars.
>

> the CYP sensor coil athttp://honda.lioness.googlepages.com/distributorbearing.

Thanks for the link. I bookmarked it.
>
I will research all the options I have but I most likely inclined to
buying a cheap stuff and get rid of the car in a couple of years.

Thanks again,

Sam

Re: Question about fuel injectors
 

The time has come to report back.

I replaced the distributor housing with the remanufactured one, more
then a week ago and all the problems have gone away. No hard starting
and of course no “check engine” light.
Thanks for advice and suggestions!

Now a little story why it took me so long to reprt.
I ordered a part from rockauto. They sent me a wrong one. Image in
the FSM shows that that was a distributor from F22B1, while 1995
Accord has F22B2 engine. After countless e-mails and phone calls they
“kindly” accepted the return making the ordering of a wrong part my
fault. So I was responsible “only” for shipping!
By the way, that was the third wrong part for the same vehicle from
rockauto. Needless to say that my love affair with rockauto is over:
three strikes and you are out!
If somebody considers ordering from them beware: their database for
Honda the very list is not correct!

I finally ordered the remanufactured part from Kragen: free shipping,
which came to the same price as rockauto’s. Core return was also
free: I simply took it to the store.
Here is the price comparison: special order from the dealer - $292
versus Kragen’s - $165.

An interesting detail about the old distributor: insulation of the
wires was badly cracked. This actually explains the “check engine”
light.

Thanks again,

Sam

Re: Question about fuel injectors
 

"somick" <sam.libman@gmail.com> wrote
>An interesting detail about the old distributor:
> insulation of the wires was badly cracked.
> This actually explains the “check engine”
> light.

This is good info to have. Reports like this have brought me
to the point where I think replacement of the dizzy housing
should be part of the maintenance schedule. Say, replace
every 10 years/150k miles, whichever comes first. :-)