Bartley

Don,
I for one, support MCO, and I have signed the petition. I am a MINI owner.
It looks to me if 'MINI' owner/enthusiast websites are a "violation",
then so are 'Porsche' 'VW' 'Honda' 'Toyota' 'Acura' 'Ferrari' 'BMW'
'Mercedes' etc.
How would you do an enthusiast website without *naming* the vehicle you are
enthused about -??
It would be like 'The Artist Formerly Known As Prince'...
'WeLoveThisCarButCantSayItsNameOutLoud.com'..


"Don L." <donlindich@mac.com> wrote in message
news:a8ee073a.0308081114.797ff321@posting.google.c om...
> Dear Auto Enthusiast,
>
> BMW is threatening a lively and useful website serving MINI
> enthusiasts (and in the UK, even owners of independent Mini garages!)
> because of "trademark violations". The story is compelling and
> shocking. Please visit www.minicooperonline.com and sign the
> petition. We are all car nuts, let's help each other out! (Please
> the word and save out favorite website for us- car nuts,
> motorcycle nuts, EVERYONE!)
>
> Please post this on your respective car message boards and send a
> message to BMW, and others who would take away our right to freely
> assemble on the web under the banner of our favorite cars.
>
> http://www.minicooperonline.com

Elmo P. Shagnasty

In article <%K6Za.1841$dm.368@nwrddc02.gnilink.net>,
"Bartley" <rbartley.mcelfresh@verizon.net> wrote:

> I for one, support MCO, and I have signed the petition. I am a MINI owner.
> It looks to me if 'MINI' owner/enthusiast websites are a "violation",
> then so are 'Porsche' 'VW' 'Honda' 'Toyota' 'Acura' 'Ferrari' 'BMW'
> 'Mercedes' etc.

Ah, but two wrongs don't make a right. That Porsche, VW, Mercedes, et
al. haven't taken the same steps doesn't mean that MINI shouldn't. In
fact, any shareholders with a stake in MINI would consider it the
obligation of the company to protect its trademarks--because that's
money to the shareholders.

And in fact, Honda did enforce its Odyssey mark a couple of years ago.
There was a web site, hondaodyssey.com, which got a cease and desist
letter from Honda. They did cease and desist, and changed the name to
odyclub.com.

Elmo P. Shagnasty

In article <%K6Za.1841$dm.368@nwrddc02.gnilink.net>,
"Bartley" <rbartley.mcelfresh@verizon.net> wrote:

> I for one, support MCO, and I have signed the petition. I am a MINI owner.
> It looks to me if 'MINI' owner/enthusiast websites are a "violation",
> then so are 'Porsche' 'VW' 'Honda' 'Toyota' 'Acura' 'Ferrari' 'BMW'
> 'Mercedes' etc.

Ah, but two wrongs don't make a right. That Porsche, VW, Mercedes, et
al. haven't taken the same steps doesn't mean that MINI shouldn't. In
fact, any shareholders with a stake in MINI would consider it the
obligation of the company to protect its trademarks--because that's
money to the shareholders.

And in fact, Honda did enforce its Odyssey mark a couple of years ago.
There was a web site, hondaodyssey.com, which got a cease and desist
letter from Honda. They did cease and desist, and changed the name to
odyclub.com.

Harlan Messinger

"Bartley" <rbartley.mcelfresh@verizon.net> wrote:

>Don,
>I for one, support MCO, and I have signed the petition. I am a MINI owner.
>It looks to me if 'MINI' owner/enthusiast websites are a "violation",
>then so are 'Porsche' 'VW' 'Honda' 'Toyota' 'Acura' 'Ferrari' 'BMW'
>'Mercedes' etc.

Yes, they are. I'm sure no one was claiming that trademark protection
only applies to the Mini brand.


>How would you do an enthusiast website without *naming* the vehicle you are
>enthused about -??
>It would be like 'The Artist Formerly Known As Prince'...
>'WeLoveThisCarButCantSayItsNameOutLoud.com'..

I'm not sure about all the legal details. I know that copyright law
includes "fair use", which includes the right to use, to an extent,
copyrighted material for purposes of discussing that material,
criticizing it, satirizing it, and so forth. I don't know whether
there's a comparable rule for trademarks. But it would seem reasonable
to me for names like "independentminifans.com" to be acceptable
without permission. Actually, I wish I knew more. But while domain
names are a rather recent issue and the details are still being hashed
out, the question of using trademarked material within the content of
the web site is entirely established, because it isn't any different
from the rules that applied all along to fanzines and other printed
materials.

--
Harlan Messinger
Remove the first dot from my e-mail address.
Veuillez ๔ter le premier point de mon adresse de courriel.

Harlan Messinger

"Bartley" <rbartley.mcelfresh@verizon.net> wrote:

>Don,
>I for one, support MCO, and I have signed the petition. I am a MINI owner.
>It looks to me if 'MINI' owner/enthusiast websites are a "violation",
>then so are 'Porsche' 'VW' 'Honda' 'Toyota' 'Acura' 'Ferrari' 'BMW'
>'Mercedes' etc.

Yes, they are. I'm sure no one was claiming that trademark protection
only applies to the Mini brand.


>How would you do an enthusiast website without *naming* the vehicle you are
>enthused about -??
>It would be like 'The Artist Formerly Known As Prince'...
>'WeLoveThisCarButCantSayItsNameOutLoud.com'..

I'm not sure about all the legal details. I know that copyright law
includes "fair use", which includes the right to use, to an extent,
copyrighted material for purposes of discussing that material,
criticizing it, satirizing it, and so forth. I don't know whether
there's a comparable rule for trademarks. But it would seem reasonable
to me for names like "independentminifans.com" to be acceptable
without permission. Actually, I wish I knew more. But while domain
names are a rather recent issue and the details are still being hashed
out, the question of using trademarked material within the content of
the web site is entirely established, because it isn't any different
from the rules that applied all along to fanzines and other printed
materials.

--
Harlan Messinger
Remove the first dot from my e-mail address.
Veuillez ๔ter le premier point de mon adresse de courriel.

Warren

> >How would you do an enthusiast website without *naming* the vehicle you
are
> >enthused about -??
> >It would be like 'The Artist Formerly Known As Prince'...
> >'WeLoveThisCarButCantSayItsNameOutLoud.com'..
>
> I'm not sure about all the legal details. I know that copyright law
> includes "fair use", which includes the right to use, to an extent,
> copyrighted material for purposes of discussing that material,
> criticizing it, satirizing it, and so forth. I don't know whether
> there's a comparable rule for trademarks. But it would seem reasonable
> to me for names like "independentminifans.com" to be acceptable
> without permission. Actually, I wish I knew more. But while domain
> names are a rather recent issue and the details are still being hashed
> out, the question of using trademarked material within the content of
> the web site is entirely established, because it isn't any different
> from the rules that applied all along to fanzines and other printed
> materials.

Nothing to do with copyright which does not matter here. BMW own the
trademark Mini so they are free to do with it as they please. There is NO
fair use clause they can shut you down if they want and if you go to court
the chances are they will win.

Warren

> >How would you do an enthusiast website without *naming* the vehicle you
are
> >enthused about -??
> >It would be like 'The Artist Formerly Known As Prince'...
> >'WeLoveThisCarButCantSayItsNameOutLoud.com'..
>
> I'm not sure about all the legal details. I know that copyright law
> includes "fair use", which includes the right to use, to an extent,
> copyrighted material for purposes of discussing that material,
> criticizing it, satirizing it, and so forth. I don't know whether
> there's a comparable rule for trademarks. But it would seem reasonable
> to me for names like "independentminifans.com" to be acceptable
> without permission. Actually, I wish I knew more. But while domain
> names are a rather recent issue and the details are still being hashed
> out, the question of using trademarked material within the content of
> the web site is entirely established, because it isn't any different
> from the rules that applied all along to fanzines and other printed
> materials.

Nothing to do with copyright which does not matter here. BMW own the
trademark Mini so they are free to do with it as they please. There is NO
fair use clause they can shut you down if they want and if you go to court
the chances are they will win.

Shomuni

On Sun, 10 Aug 2003 07:36:11 -0400, Harlan Messinger
<h.messinger@comcast.net> wrote:

>Shomuni <Thanks_for_killing_my_Account@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>BMW, Porsche, VW, Audi, Jeep and I think a couple of other companies
>>have sued to keep anything related to their brand name shut down. This
>>has generated a lot of bad feelings among the fan of these makes.
>
>Yes, I notice that almost none of these cars can be found on the road
>any more. Every car buyer in the world is so indignant that a few
>hand-wringing fans (with an inflated sense of the car-buying public's
>concern with their operations) aren't allowed to do what they want
>with these manufacturers' trademarks that the market for these cars
>has just dried up.

You bleeding heart type are really too much. The fact is these
companies go after anything and everything. If you actually read some
of teh cases you would not be so quick to judge. One case involved a
mans last name and he had a website that was verbotten by the
trademark holder and they won the case. Also notce it is German
companies doing this. Jeep is now owned by a German company.
If agressivle pursueing trademarks against individuals they why is it
onlt German car companies doing it? Why hasn't Ford and Chevy shut
down all teh sites associated with their cars?
Why hasn't Ferrari gone after these evil bastards full force for using
the word Ferrari in theior website.
It's a few companies and BMW doesn't suyrprise me and neither does VW.
Thois **** roots run deep which is why I am boycotting their cars and
yeah it's only one sale but it's still money out of their pocket. They
use a trademark to restrict the freedom of speech we have in the USA.
Trademarks are forever and it's highly unlikely that afyter almost 60
years a judge will say og sorry but you failed to clamp down on that
12 year old with a fan website for Jeeps so you lose your trademark.
You are confusing trademarks with copyright laws.
They are very different and both sets of laws need to be fully
revamped. Rest assured that nothing will ever become public domain at
this point.

Shomuni

On Sun, 10 Aug 2003 07:36:11 -0400, Harlan Messinger
<h.messinger@comcast.net> wrote:

>Shomuni <Thanks_for_killing_my_Account@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>BMW, Porsche, VW, Audi, Jeep and I think a couple of other companies
>>have sued to keep anything related to their brand name shut down. This
>>has generated a lot of bad feelings among the fan of these makes.
>
>Yes, I notice that almost none of these cars can be found on the road
>any more. Every car buyer in the world is so indignant that a few
>hand-wringing fans (with an inflated sense of the car-buying public's
>concern with their operations) aren't allowed to do what they want
>with these manufacturers' trademarks that the market for these cars
>has just dried up.

You bleeding heart type are really too much. The fact is these
companies go after anything and everything. If you actually read some
of teh cases you would not be so quick to judge. One case involved a
mans last name and he had a website that was verbotten by the
trademark holder and they won the case. Also notce it is German
companies doing this. Jeep is now owned by a German company.
If agressivle pursueing trademarks against individuals they why is it
onlt German car companies doing it? Why hasn't Ford and Chevy shut
down all teh sites associated with their cars?
Why hasn't Ferrari gone after these evil bastards full force for using
the word Ferrari in theior website.
It's a few companies and BMW doesn't suyrprise me and neither does VW.
Thois **** roots run deep which is why I am boycotting their cars and
yeah it's only one sale but it's still money out of their pocket. They
use a trademark to restrict the freedom of speech we have in the USA.
Trademarks are forever and it's highly unlikely that afyter almost 60
years a judge will say og sorry but you failed to clamp down on that
12 year old with a fan website for Jeeps so you lose your trademark.
You are confusing trademarks with copyright laws.
They are very different and both sets of laws need to be fully
revamped. Rest assured that nothing will ever become public domain at
this point.

Stuart Gray

"Warren" <spam@spam-me.com> wrote in message
news:bh65ql$bgr$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk...
> > >How would you do an enthusiast website without *naming* the vehicle you
> are
> > >enthused about -??
> > >It would be like 'The Artist Formerly Known As Prince'...
> > >'WeLoveThisCarButCantSayItsNameOutLoud.com'..
> >
> > I'm not sure about all the legal details. I know that copyright law
> > includes "fair use", which includes the right to use, to an extent,
> > copyrighted material for purposes of discussing that material,
> > criticizing it, satirizing it, and so forth. I don't know whether
> > there's a comparable rule for trademarks. But it would seem reasonable
> > to me for names like "independentminifans.com" to be acceptable
> > without permission. Actually, I wish I knew more. But while domain
> > names are a rather recent issue and the details are still being hashed
> > out, the question of using trademarked material within the content of
> > the web site is entirely established, because it isn't any different
> > from the rules that applied all along to fanzines and other printed
> > materials.
>
> Nothing to do with copyright which does not matter here. BMW own the
> trademark Mini so they are free to do with it as they please. There is NO
> fair use clause they can shut you down if they want and if you go to court
> the chances are they will win.
>
Why not change the website name to something like GerMini just to annoy the
BMW lot. LOL.
At least this would distinguish between the old Mini and the new Beemer one.

Stuart.

Stuart Gray

"Warren" <spam@spam-me.com> wrote in message
news:bh65ql$bgr$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk...
> > >How would you do an enthusiast website without *naming* the vehicle you
> are
> > >enthused about -??
> > >It would be like 'The Artist Formerly Known As Prince'...
> > >'WeLoveThisCarButCantSayItsNameOutLoud.com'..
> >
> > I'm not sure about all the legal details. I know that copyright law
> > includes "fair use", which includes the right to use, to an extent,
> > copyrighted material for purposes of discussing that material,
> > criticizing it, satirizing it, and so forth. I don't know whether
> > there's a comparable rule for trademarks. But it would seem reasonable
> > to me for names like "independentminifans.com" to be acceptable
> > without permission. Actually, I wish I knew more. But while domain
> > names are a rather recent issue and the details are still being hashed
> > out, the question of using trademarked material within the content of
> > the web site is entirely established, because it isn't any different
> > from the rules that applied all along to fanzines and other printed
> > materials.
>
> Nothing to do with copyright which does not matter here. BMW own the
> trademark Mini so they are free to do with it as they please. There is NO
> fair use clause they can shut you down if they want and if you go to court
> the chances are they will win.
>
Why not change the website name to something like GerMini just to annoy the
BMW lot. LOL.
At least this would distinguish between the old Mini and the new Beemer one.

Stuart.

Harlan Messinger

Shomuni <Thanks_for_killing_my_Account@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 10 Aug 2003 07:36:11 -0400, Harlan Messinger
><h.messinger@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>Shomuni <Thanks_for_killing_my_Account@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>BMW, Porsche, VW, Audi, Jeep and I think a couple of other companies
>>>have sued to keep anything related to their brand name shut down. This
>>>has generated a lot of bad feelings among the fan of these makes.
>>
>>Yes, I notice that almost none of these cars can be found on the road
>>any more. Every car buyer in the world is so indignant that a few
>>hand-wringing fans (with an inflated sense of the car-buying public's
>>concern with their operations) aren't allowed to do what they want
>>with these manufacturers' trademarks that the market for these cars
>>has just dried up.
>
>You bleeding heart type are really too much.

Wow. This is a first. "Bleeding heart" being used to describe someone
defending corporate rights? Giggle, snort. The term would *normally*
be used to describe people defending the "little guy" based on an
overblown sense of what constitutes unfair treatment, as you are doing
here.

>The fact is these
>companies go after anything and everything. If you actually read some
>of teh cases you would not be so quick to judge. One case involved a
>mans last name and he had a website that was verbotten by the
>trademark holder and they won the case. Also notce it is German
>companies doing this. Jeep is now owned by a German company.
>If agressivle pursueing trademarks against individuals they why is it
>onlt German car companies doing it? Why hasn't Ford and Chevy shut
>down all teh sites associated with their cars?

I don't know whether they have or haven't. But do you think every time
a corporation decides to do something, it makes sure that every other
company is already doing the same thing first? No one would ever get
anything done.

>Why hasn't Ferrari gone after these evil bastards full force for using
>the word Ferrari in theior website.

>It's a few companies and BMW doesn't suyrprise me and neither does VW.
>Thois **** roots run deep

Oh, good ing grief.

[snip]

--
Harlan Messinger
Remove the first dot from my e-mail address.
Veuillez ๔ter le premier point de mon adresse de courriel.

Harlan Messinger

Shomuni <Thanks_for_killing_my_Account@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 10 Aug 2003 07:36:11 -0400, Harlan Messinger
><h.messinger@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>Shomuni <Thanks_for_killing_my_Account@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>BMW, Porsche, VW, Audi, Jeep and I think a couple of other companies
>>>have sued to keep anything related to their brand name shut down. This
>>>has generated a lot of bad feelings among the fan of these makes.
>>
>>Yes, I notice that almost none of these cars can be found on the road
>>any more. Every car buyer in the world is so indignant that a few
>>hand-wringing fans (with an inflated sense of the car-buying public's
>>concern with their operations) aren't allowed to do what they want
>>with these manufacturers' trademarks that the market for these cars
>>has just dried up.
>
>You bleeding heart type are really too much.

Wow. This is a first. "Bleeding heart" being used to describe someone
defending corporate rights? Giggle, snort. The term would *normally*
be used to describe people defending the "little guy" based on an
overblown sense of what constitutes unfair treatment, as you are doing
here.

>The fact is these
>companies go after anything and everything. If you actually read some
>of teh cases you would not be so quick to judge. One case involved a
>mans last name and he had a website that was verbotten by the
>trademark holder and they won the case. Also notce it is German
>companies doing this. Jeep is now owned by a German company.
>If agressivle pursueing trademarks against individuals they why is it
>onlt German car companies doing it? Why hasn't Ford and Chevy shut
>down all teh sites associated with their cars?

I don't know whether they have or haven't. But do you think every time
a corporation decides to do something, it makes sure that every other
company is already doing the same thing first? No one would ever get
anything done.

>Why hasn't Ferrari gone after these evil bastards full force for using
>the word Ferrari in theior website.

>It's a few companies and BMW doesn't suyrprise me and neither does VW.
>Thois **** roots run deep

Oh, good ing grief.

[snip]

--
Harlan Messinger
Remove the first dot from my e-mail address.
Veuillez ๔ter le premier point de mon adresse de courriel.

Harlan Messinger

"Warren" <spam@spam-me.com> wrote:

>> >How would you do an enthusiast website without *naming* the vehicle you
>are
>> >enthused about -??
>> >It would be like 'The Artist Formerly Known As Prince'...
>> >'WeLoveThisCarButCantSayItsNameOutLoud.com'..
>>
>> I'm not sure about all the legal details. I know that copyright law
>> includes "fair use", which includes the right to use, to an extent,
>> copyrighted material for purposes of discussing that material,
>> criticizing it, satirizing it, and so forth. I don't know whether
>> there's a comparable rule for trademarks. But it would seem reasonable
>> to me for names like "independentminifans.com" to be acceptable
>> without permission. Actually, I wish I knew more. But while domain
>> names are a rather recent issue and the details are still being hashed
>> out, the question of using trademarked material within the content of
>> the web site is entirely established, because it isn't any different
>> from the rules that applied all along to fanzines and other printed
>> materials.
>
>Nothing to do with copyright which does not matter here. BMW own the
>trademark Mini so they are free to do with it as they please. There is NO
>fair use clause they can shut you down if they want and if you go to court
>the chances are they will win.

There may not be a literal "fair use clause" such as there is in
copyright law, but if an auto reviewer writes a bad review of a car,
and uses the name of the car in the article, the manufacturer
certainly has no standing under trademark law to come along and
prevent the article from being published.


--
Harlan Messinger
Remove the first dot from my e-mail address.
Veuillez ๔ter le premier point de mon adresse de courriel.

Harlan Messinger

"Warren" <spam@spam-me.com> wrote:

>> >How would you do an enthusiast website without *naming* the vehicle you
>are
>> >enthused about -??
>> >It would be like 'The Artist Formerly Known As Prince'...
>> >'WeLoveThisCarButCantSayItsNameOutLoud.com'..
>>
>> I'm not sure about all the legal details. I know that copyright law
>> includes "fair use", which includes the right to use, to an extent,
>> copyrighted material for purposes of discussing that material,
>> criticizing it, satirizing it, and so forth. I don't know whether
>> there's a comparable rule for trademarks. But it would seem reasonable
>> to me for names like "independentminifans.com" to be acceptable
>> without permission. Actually, I wish I knew more. But while domain
>> names are a rather recent issue and the details are still being hashed
>> out, the question of using trademarked material within the content of
>> the web site is entirely established, because it isn't any different
>> from the rules that applied all along to fanzines and other printed
>> materials.
>
>Nothing to do with copyright which does not matter here. BMW own the
>trademark Mini so they are free to do with it as they please. There is NO
>fair use clause they can shut you down if they want and if you go to court
>the chances are they will win.

There may not be a literal "fair use clause" such as there is in
copyright law, but if an auto reviewer writes a bad review of a car,
and uses the name of the car in the article, the manufacturer
certainly has no standing under trademark law to come along and
prevent the article from being published.


--
Harlan Messinger
Remove the first dot from my e-mail address.
Veuillez ๔ter le premier point de mon adresse de courriel.