Roadie

On Feb 19, 11:35 pm, "mjc13<REMOVETHIS>"
<"mjc13<REMOVETHIS>"@verizon.net> wrote:
> I got little help from the Honda newsgroup, and I know these two
> groups are much better, so I'm hoping that there are some helpful Civic
> owners here who can help me...
>
> When I had the oil changed in November, I was told they had to add
> "quite a bit" of coolant to the reservoir. Since the car came from NM,
> with a spotty service record, I had hoped that it was simply not topped
> off ever.

A used car with a spotty service record is, well, a risk. Hopefully
you got it for cheap.

> Now, three months later, with only moderate driving, I see the
> reservoir is virtually empty again. I don't see excessive white smoke in
> the exhaust, or smell antifreeze in it - although I haven't sniffed it
> specifically for that, yet. The oil looks fine. I don't smell coolant
> inside the car, either. It would be hard to spot a slow drip in this wet
> Winter weather. How common are internal head gasket leaks in this
> engine,
> as opposed to slow leaks in the reservoirs?

With almost any engine the chances are greater that the leak is
somewhere other than a head gasket.

>
> Followup: I took the car to a local shop today. They do free pressure
> tests (I gave them $20 anyway). No leaks, including the cap. Unless I'm
> missing something, it has to be the #@!@# head gasket, right? Assuming
> it's going straight to the exhaust and not burning much, how safe is it
> to leave it alone?


Not safe at all. Inspect all hoses, plastic connectors between hoses,
heater core connections, radiator tank & hose connections carefully
for any evidence of dried coolant.

A pressure test is not a very good test imho. After doing the above
you should have an exhaust gas test performed. Also, is there any
bubbling in the expansion tank or forced expulsion of coolant? Does
the temperature gauge suddenly drop after the car is warmed up?



> Any suggestions?

See above, keep looking and find the leak.

mjc13

Roadie wrote:
> On Feb 19, 11:35 pm, "mjc13<REMOVETHIS>"
> <"mjc13<REMOVETHIS>"@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> I got little help from the Honda newsgroup, and I know these two
>>groups are much better, so I'm hoping that there are some helpful Civic
>>owners here who can help me...
>>
>>When I had the oil changed in November, I was told they had to add
>>"quite a bit" of coolant to the reservoir. Since the car came from NM,
>>with a spotty service record, I had hoped that it was simply not topped
>>off ever.
>
>
> A used car with a spotty service record is, well, a risk. Hopefully
> you got it for cheap.
>
>
>>Now, three months later, with only moderate driving, I see the
>>reservoir is virtually empty again. I don't see excessive white smoke in
>>the exhaust, or smell antifreeze in it - although I haven't sniffed it
>>specifically for that, yet. The oil looks fine. I don't smell coolant
>>inside the car, either. It would be hard to spot a slow drip in this wet
>>Winter weather. How common are internal head gasket leaks in this
>>engine,
>>as opposed to slow leaks in the reservoirs?
>
>
> With almost any engine the chances are greater that the leak is
> somewhere other than a head gasket.
>
>
>>Followup: I took the car to a local shop today. They do free pressure
>>tests (I gave them $20 anyway). No leaks, including the cap. Unless I'm
>>missing something, it has to be the #@!@# head gasket, right? Assuming
>>it's going straight to the exhaust and not burning much, how safe is it
>>to leave it alone?
>
>
>
> Not safe at all. Inspect all hoses, plastic connectors between hoses,
> heater core connections, radiator tank & hose connections carefully
> for any evidence of dried coolant.
>
> A pressure test is not a very good test imho. After doing the above
> you should have an exhaust gas test performed. Also, is there any
> bubbling in the expansion tank or forced expulsion of coolant? Does
> the temperature gauge suddenly drop after the car is warmed up?
>
>
>
>
>>Any suggestions?
>
>
> See above, keep looking and find the leak.
>

As I told Tegger, I'm taking the car in for a scheduled service this
evening, so what I can check now is limited. The temp guage behaves
perfectly normal - slowly rises to a bit under 1/4, then stays there
even in hot weather. No spikes or drops. The exhaust is clear and has no
coolant smell. I will look for bubbles, but this seems to be a very
subtle leak wherever it is. Yes, the car was inexpensive - $2850 with a
busted headlight that I replaced, and no rust, just a few dings. Mileage
is now 146k miles. It was 141k when I bought it last May or June. I'm
going to have the dealer do a visual inspection for leaks, including the
water pump, and if there is no sign of any, replace the head gasket. I'm
worried that the guy at Valvoline* didn't actually add coolant, and
there is no leak, but I'm also obviously worried that the head gasket is
leaking.

* Valvoline used to be fine. Now they push expensive unnecessary service
and products on people, especially women. But I always use the same one,
and they know better than to try that on me.

Roadie

On Feb 20, 8:04 am, "mjc13<REMOVETHIS>"
<"mjc13<REMOVETHIS>"@verizon.net> wrote:
> Roadie wrote:
> > On Feb 19, 11:35 pm, "mjc13<REMOVETHIS>"
> > <"mjc13<REMOVETHIS>"@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> >> I got little help from the Honda newsgroup, and I know these two
> >>groups are much better, so I'm hoping that there are some helpful Civic
> >>owners here who can help me...
>
> >>When I had the oil changed in November, I was told they had to add
> >>"quite a bit" of coolant to the reservoir. Since the car came from NM,
> >>with a spotty service record, I had hoped that it was simply not topped
> >>off ever.
>
> > A used car with a spotty service record is, well, a risk. Hopefully
> > you got it for cheap.
>
> >>Now, three months later, with only moderate driving, I see the
> >>reservoir is virtually empty again. I don't see excessive white smoke in
> >>the exhaust, or smell antifreeze in it - although I haven't sniffed it
> >>specifically for that, yet. The oil looks fine. I don't smell coolant
> >>inside the car, either. It would be hard to spot a slow drip in this wet
> >>Winter weather. How common are internal head gasket leaks in this
> >>engine,
> >>as opposed to slow leaks in the reservoirs?
>
> > With almost any engine the chances are greater that the leak is
> > somewhere other than a head gasket.
>
> >>Followup: I took the car to a local shop today. They do free pressure
> >>tests (I gave them $20 anyway). No leaks, including the cap. Unless I'm
> >>missing something, it has to be the #@!@# head gasket, right? Assuming
> >>it's going straight to the exhaust and not burning much, how safe is it
> >>to leave it alone?
>
> > Not safe at all. Inspect all hoses, plastic connectors between hoses,
> > heater core connections, radiator tank & hose connections carefully
> > for any evidence of dried coolant.
>
> > A pressure test is not a very good test imho. After doing the above
> > you should have an exhaust gas test performed. Also, is there any
> > bubbling in the expansion tank or forced expulsion of coolant? Does
> > the temperature gauge suddenly drop after the car is warmed up?
>
> >>Any suggestions?
>
> > See above, keep looking and find the leak.
>
> As I told Tegger, I'm taking the car in for a scheduled service this
> evening, so what I can check now is limited. The temp guage behaves
> perfectly normal - slowly rises to a bit under 1/4, then stays there
> even in hot weather. No spikes or drops. The exhaust is clear and has no
> coolant smell. I will look for bubbles, but this seems to be a very
> subtle leak wherever it is. Yes, the car was inexpensive - $2850 with a
> busted headlight that I replaced, and no rust, just a few dings. Mileage
> is now 146k miles. It was 141k when I bought it last May or June. I'm
> going to have the dealer do a visual inspection for leaks, including the
> water pump, and if there is no sign of any, replace the head gasket. I'm
> worried that the guy at Valvoline* didn't actually add coolant, and
> there is no leak, but I'm also obviously worried that the head gasket is
> leaking.

On what exactly do you base the worry that the Valvoline tech did not
add coolant?


>
> * Valvoline used to be fine. Now they push expensive unnecessary service
> and products on people, especially women.

Huh??? So what does this have to do with lost coolant?

You have several ways to check for the cause of lost coolant. It is
now up to you to decide when that search will begin.

> But I always use the same one,
> and they know better than to try that on me.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

mjc13

Roadie wrote:
> On Feb 20, 8:04 am, "mjc13<REMOVETHIS>"
> <"mjc13<REMOVETHIS>"@verizon.net> wrote:
(...)
>>
>> As I told Tegger, I'm taking the car in for a scheduled service this
>>evening, so what I can check now is limited. The temp guage behaves
>>perfectly normal - slowly rises to a bit under 1/4, then stays there
>>even in hot weather. No spikes or drops. The exhaust is clear and has no
>>coolant smell. I will look for bubbles, but this seems to be a very
>>subtle leak wherever it is. Yes, the car was inexpensive - $2850 with a
>>busted headlight that I replaced, and no rust, just a few dings. Mileage
>>is now 146k miles. It was 141k when I bought it last May or June. I'm
>>going to have the dealer do a visual inspection for leaks, including the
>>water pump, and if there is no sign of any, replace the head gasket. I'm
>>worried that the guy at Valvoline* didn't actually add coolant, and
>>there is no leak, but I'm also obviously worried that the head gasket is
>>leaking.
>
>
> On what exactly do you base the worry that the Valvoline tech did not
> add coolant?

They routinely check the box on the receipt that says they checked
and set tire pressures. In fact, they told me that since the tires are
warm, they never check the pressures routinely. When they get busy, they
get sloppy. The tech may have noted the empty reservoir, told someone
else to add coolant, and it may not have been added. I am not claiming
that this actually occured.


>
>
>
>>* Valvoline used to be fine. Now they push expensive unnecessary service
>>and products on people, especially women.
>
>
> Huh??? So what does this have to do with lost coolant?


When my (female) housemate called to ask if they do pressure tests,
the person who answered told her that the coolant was probably being
"burned because it was worn out" and they would be happy to change it.
This does not inspire confidence. I have personally witnessed them tell
a woman with a 6 year old car with 70k miles on it that it *needs* the
"high mileage" oil. Like I said, they used to be ok, but since they
added all these services and products, they push them like snake oil
salesmen. Not every one of them, but too many.

>
> You have several ways to check for the cause of lost coolant. It is
> now up to you to decide when that search will begin.


Thank you, Master Yoda. ;-)


(...)

jim beam

mjc13<REMOVETHIS> wrote:
> Roadie wrote:
>> On Feb 20, 8:04 am, "mjc13<REMOVETHIS>"
>> <"mjc13<REMOVETHIS>"@verizon.net> wrote:
> (...)
>>>
>>> As I told Tegger, I'm taking the car in for a scheduled service this
>>> evening, so what I can check now is limited. The temp guage behaves
>>> perfectly normal - slowly rises to a bit under 1/4, then stays there
>>> even in hot weather. No spikes or drops. The exhaust is clear and has no
>>> coolant smell. I will look for bubbles, but this seems to be a very
>>> subtle leak wherever it is. Yes, the car was inexpensive - $2850 with a
>>> busted headlight that I replaced, and no rust, just a few dings. Mileage
>>> is now 146k miles. It was 141k when I bought it last May or June. I'm
>>> going to have the dealer do a visual inspection for leaks, including the
>>> water pump, and if there is no sign of any, replace the head gasket. I'm
>>> worried that the guy at Valvoline* didn't actually add coolant, and
>>> there is no leak, but I'm also obviously worried that the head gasket is
>>> leaking.
>>
>>
>> On what exactly do you base the worry that the Valvoline tech did not
>> add coolant?
>
> They routinely check the box on the receipt that says they checked
> and set tire pressures. In fact, they told me that since the tires are
> warm, they never check the pressures routinely. When they get busy, they
> get sloppy. The tech may have noted the empty reservoir, told someone
> else to add coolant, and it may not have been added. I am not claiming
> that this actually occured.

with respect, you need to take care of this responsibility yourself.
"but they said the gun wasn't loaded..." etc.

with an older vehicle such as this, make it a habit to regularly check
under the hood. every time you gas up would be ideal. better to
"waste" a few seconds doing this than money on expensive repairs that
could have been prevented by being more observant.




>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>> * Valvoline used to be fine. Now they push expensive unnecessary service
>>> and products on people, especially women.
>>
>>
>> Huh??? So what does this have to do with lost coolant?
>
>
> When my (female) housemate called to ask if they do pressure tests,
> the person who answered told her that the coolant was probably being
> "burned because it was worn out" and they would be happy to change it.
> This does not inspire confidence. I have personally witnessed them tell
> a woman with a 6 year old car with 70k miles on it that it *needs* the
> "high mileage" oil. Like I said, they used to be ok, but since they
> added all these services and products, they push them like snake oil
> salesmen. Not every one of them, but too many.
>
>>
>> You have several ways to check for the cause of lost coolant. It is
>> now up to you to decide when that search will begin.
>
>
> Thank you, Master Yoda. ;-)
>
>
> (...)

Roadie

On Feb 21, 12:14 am, "mjc13<REMOVETHIS>"
<"mjc13<REMOVETHIS>"@verizon.net> wrote:
> Roadie wrote:
> > On Feb 20, 8:04 am, "mjc13<REMOVETHIS>"
> > <"mjc13<REMOVETHIS>"@verizon.net> wrote:
> (...)
>
> >> As I told Tegger, I'm taking the car in for a scheduled service this
> >>evening, so what I can check now is limited. The temp guage behaves
> >>perfectly normal - slowly rises to a bit under 1/4, then stays there
> >>even in hot weather. No spikes or drops. The exhaust is clear and has no
> >>coolant smell. I will look for bubbles, but this seems to be a very
> >>subtle leak wherever it is. Yes, the car was inexpensive - $2850 with a
> >>busted headlight that I replaced, and no rust, just a few dings. Mileage
> >>is now 146k miles. It was 141k when I bought it last May or June. I'm
> >>going to have the dealer do a visual inspection for leaks, including the
> >>water pump, and if there is no sign of any, replace the head gasket. I'm
> >>worried that the guy at Valvoline* didn't actually add coolant, and
> >>there is no leak, but I'm also obviously worried that the head gasket is
> >>leaking.
>
> > On what exactly do you base the worry that the Valvoline tech did not
> > add coolant?
>
> They routinely check the box on the receipt that says they checked
> and set tire pressures. In fact, they told me that since the tires are
> warm, they never check the pressures routinely. When they get busy, they
> get sloppy. The tech may have noted the empty reservoir, told someone
> else to add coolant, and it may not have been added. I am not claiming
> that this actually occured.
>
>
>
> >>* Valvoline used to be fine. Now they push expensive unnecessary service
> >>and products on people, especially women.
>
> > Huh??? So what does this have to do with lost coolant?
>
> When my (female) housemate called to ask if they do pressure tests,
> the person who answered told her that the coolant was probably being
> "burned because it was worn out" and they would be happy to change it.
> This does not inspire confidence. I have personally witnessed them tell
> a woman with a 6 year old car with 70k miles on it that it *needs* the
> "high mileage" oil. Like I said, they used to be ok, but since they
> added all these services and products, they push them like snake oil
> salesmen. Not every one of them, but too many.
>
>
>
> > You have several ways to check for the cause of lost coolant. It is
> > now up to you to decide when that search will begin.
>
> Thank you, Master Yoda. ;-)
>
> (...)- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I reread your many posts on the simple question of "why is the coolant
level dropping". You include an enormous amount of extraneous
information that keeps you from focusing on the problem at hand and at
least one important fact about the coolant level is inconsistent.
It's really simple - either you or your mechanic has to determine
whether the coolant is actually dropping and then start a methodic
search for the cause.

Given the direction of this thread I think that person should be your
mechanic.

mjc13

Roadie wrote:
> On Feb 21, 12:14 am, "mjc13<REMOVETHIS>"
> <"mjc13<REMOVETHIS>"@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>>Roadie wrote:
>>
>>>On Feb 20, 8:04 am, "mjc13<REMOVETHIS>"
>>><"mjc13<REMOVETHIS>"@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>(...)
>>
>>
>>>> As I told Tegger, I'm taking the car in for a scheduled service this
>>>>evening, so what I can check now is limited. The temp guage behaves
>>>>perfectly normal - slowly rises to a bit under 1/4, then stays there
>>>>even in hot weather. No spikes or drops. The exhaust is clear and has no
>>>>coolant smell. I will look for bubbles, but this seems to be a very
>>>>subtle leak wherever it is. Yes, the car was inexpensive - $2850 with a
>>>>busted headlight that I replaced, and no rust, just a few dings. Mileage
>>>>is now 146k miles. It was 141k when I bought it last May or June. I'm
>>>>going to have the dealer do a visual inspection for leaks, including the
>>>>water pump, and if there is no sign of any, replace the head gasket. I'm
>>>>worried that the guy at Valvoline* didn't actually add coolant, and
>>>>there is no leak, but I'm also obviously worried that the head gasket is
>>>>leaking.
>>
>>>On what exactly do you base the worry that the Valvoline tech did not
>>>add coolant?
>>
>> They routinely check the box on the receipt that says they checked
>>and set tire pressures. In fact, they told me that since the tires are
>>warm, they never check the pressures routinely. When they get busy, they
>>get sloppy. The tech may have noted the empty reservoir, told someone
>>else to add coolant, and it may not have been added. I am not claiming
>>that this actually occured.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>>* Valvoline used to be fine. Now they push expensive unnecessary service
>>>>and products on people, especially women.
>>
>>>Huh??? So what does this have to do with lost coolant?
>>
>> When my (female) housemate called to ask if they do pressure tests,
>>the person who answered told her that the coolant was probably being
>>"burned because it was worn out" and they would be happy to change it.
>>This does not inspire confidence. I have personally witnessed them tell
>>a woman with a 6 year old car with 70k miles on it that it *needs* the
>>"high mileage" oil. Like I said, they used to be ok, but since they
>>added all these services and products, they push them like snake oil
>>salesmen. Not every one of them, but too many.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>You have several ways to check for the cause of lost coolant. It is
>>>now up to you to decide when that search will begin.
>>
>> Thank you, Master Yoda. ;-)
>>
>>(...)- Hide quoted text -
>>
>>- Show quoted text -
>
>
> I reread your many posts on the simple question of "why is the coolant
> level dropping". You include an enormous amount of extraneous
> information that keeps you from focusing on the problem at hand and at
> least one important fact about the coolant level is inconsistent.
> It's really simple - either you or your mechanic has to determine
> whether the coolant is actually dropping and then start a methodic
> search for the cause.
>
> Given the direction of this thread I think that person should be your
> mechanic.

The "extraneous information" was mostly in response to a direct
question. The car is in the shop now, and it was in fact the water pump
that was leaking. Thanks to all who replied, regardless of the degree of
friendliness.

z

On Feb 21, 2:25 pm, "mjc13<REMOVETHIS>"
<"mjc13<REMOVETHIS>"@verizon.net> wrote:
> Roadie wrote:
> > On Feb 21, 12:14 am, "mjc13<REMOVETHIS>"
> > <"mjc13<REMOVETHIS>"@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> >>Roadie wrote:
>
> >>>On Feb 20, 8:04 am, "mjc13<REMOVETHIS>"
> >>><"mjc13<REMOVETHIS>"@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> >>(...)
>
> >>>> As I told Tegger, I'm taking the car in for a scheduled service this
> >>>>evening, so what I can check now is limited. The temp guage behaves
> >>>>perfectly normal - slowly rises to a bit under 1/4, then stays there
> >>>>even in hot weather. No spikes or drops. The exhaust is clear and has no
> >>>>coolant smell. I will look for bubbles, but this seems to be a very
> >>>>subtle leak wherever it is. Yes, the car was inexpensive - $2850 with a
> >>>>busted headlight that I replaced, and no rust, just a few dings. Mileage
> >>>>is now 146k miles. It was 141k when I bought it last May or June. I'm
> >>>>going to have the dealer do a visual inspection for leaks, including the
> >>>>water pump, and if there is no sign of any, replace the head gasket. I'm
> >>>>worried that the guy at Valvoline* didn't actually add coolant, and
> >>>>there is no leak, but I'm also obviously worried that the head gasket is
> >>>>leaking.
>
> >>>On what exactly do you base the worry that the Valvoline tech did not
> >>>add coolant?
>
> >> They routinely check the box on the receipt that says they checked
> >>and set tire pressures. In fact, they told me that since the tires are
> >>warm, they never check the pressures routinely. When they get busy, they
> >>get sloppy. The tech may have noted the empty reservoir, told someone
> >>else to add coolant, and it may not have been added. I am not claiming
> >>that this actually occured.
>
> >>>>* Valvoline used to be fine. Now they push expensive unnecessary service
> >>>>and products on people, especially women.
>
> >>>Huh??? So what does this have to do with lost coolant?
>
> >> When my (female) housemate called to ask if they do pressure tests,
> >>the person who answered told her that the coolant was probably being
> >>"burned because it was worn out" and they would be happy to change it.
> >>This does not inspire confidence. I have personally witnessed them tell
> >>a woman with a 6 year old car with 70k miles on it that it *needs* the
> >>"high mileage" oil. Like I said, they used to be ok, but since they
> >>added all these services and products, they push them like snake oil
> >>salesmen. Not every one of them, but too many.
>
> >>>You have several ways to check for the cause of lost coolant. It is
> >>>now up to you to decide when that search will begin.
>
> >> Thank you, Master Yoda. ;-)
>
> >>(...)- Hide quoted text -
>
> >>- Show quoted text -
>
> > I reread your many posts on the simple question of "why is the coolant
> > level dropping". You include an enormous amount of extraneous
> > information that keeps you from focusing on the problem at hand and at
> > least one important fact about the coolant level is inconsistent.
> > It's really simple - either you or your mechanic has to determine
> > whether the coolant is actually dropping and then start a methodic
> > search for the cause.
>
> > Given the direction of this thread I think that person should be your
> > mechanic.
>
> The "extraneous information" was mostly in response to a direct
> question. The car is in the shop now, and it was in fact the water pump
> that was leaking. Thanks to all who replied, regardless of the degree of
> friendliness.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

well, it's a little late now, but since i just read the whole thread,
i will say that the symptoms you described point more to a small leak
than a head gasket. if it's a small leak, you won't see the coolant
before it evaporates. bet I'm right! haha.

James Sweet

>well, it's a little late now, but since i just read the whole thread,
>i will say that the symptoms you described point more to a small leak
>than a head gasket. if it's a small leak, you won't see the coolant
>before it evaporates. bet I'm right! haha.



I had this happen on my 740 years ago. A hose clamp was just loose enough to
let the coolant leak out slowly when the engine was hot, I never saw any
drips or steam. I finally found it by pressurizing the cooling system to a
few psi with the engine cold.

mjc13

James Sweet wrote:
>>well, it's a little late now, but since i just read the whole thread,
>>i will say that the symptoms you described point more to a small leak
>>than a head gasket. if it's a small leak, you won't see the coolant
>>before it evaporates. bet I'm right! haha.
>
>
>
>
> I had this happen on my 740 years ago. A hose clamp was just loose enough to
> let the coolant leak out slowly when the engine was hot, I never saw any
> drips or steam. I finally found it by pressurizing the cooling system to a
> few psi with the engine cold.
>
>

My Civic actually passed the pressure test. Ah, for those
old-fashioned exposed water pumps!