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Re: Sticky gas pedal since 2002 Accord was new
jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in
news:u96dnZIwyfDIt-PYnZ2dnUVZ_vyunZ2d@speakeasy.net: > Tegger wrote: >> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in >> news:FMidnRcX4r4oWeHYnZ2dnUVZ_uuqnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t: >> >>> Tegger wrote: >> >>> ~2k per change on m1? ordinary oil is good for way more than that. >>> provided there's no fuel mixture/ignition problems messing up >>> combustion, m1 should double conventional mileage, especially for a >>> freeway driver. last time i changed mine at 10k, it came out >>> looking much the same as it did at 2k - same consistency too. >>> should have left it in there for another 5k. especially as it had >>> finished getting burnt and the level was constant. >> >> >> >> I'm changing it every 3K now. It was 2.5K with Castrol GTX. I know I >> could leave it lots longer, but I'm paranoid here; I want to milk >> this motor for all it's worth. And when a rebuild is finally >> imperative, I want that crankshaft to be as perfect as possible. >> >> My oil gets jet-black after 3K, as does our Tercel's. And the Tercel >> has only 75K on it. > > wow, that's not good. what plugs do you use? i know you live in > colder climes which can keep the motor running rich, but excessive > soot in the oil is a symptom of incomplete combustion. weak spark > from the plugs can cause that. that's not say the plugs don't fire, > but if they're weak, combustion is not complete - hence it's always > recommended to have new plugs when going for a smog test. cheapo > gasoline can give poor combustion too. Plugs are OEM Denso, straight from the Toyota dealer. The gas is whatever name-brand station is close by. The plugs are firing just fine, as evidenced by very low HCs when the car is smogged, as well as the obvious condition of the electrodes and insulators. >> >> >> There is no stabilization period. Either a car uses oil or it does >> not. > > that's not true. if a base loses 15% of the lighter fractions, the > [heavier] remainder will not evaporate and losses will be stabilized. > then all you have to do is bring it back up to original level and > it'll remain pretty constant. and that theory is backed by my > experience, as reported above. mine's stable after about 2k, just > when you're getting ready to change yours! So then I should notice a definite difference after 2K, and I do not. Also, the car used to use no oil at all between changes, but that was 200,000 miles ago. And the Tercel uses no oil either. If there were any evaporation going on, I think we'd be seeing it in the Tercel. > >> Mine does, and no brand or viscosity is having any effect. >> >> >>>> Two years ago, it was 2,200 in the dead of winter, and more like >>>> 1,600 in the summer. My rings are just plain worn out, and nothing >>>> will fix that except a rebuild. >>> did your head gasket dude use any abrasives when prepping for the >>> new one? >> >> >> >> Absolutely not. In fact, he was most emphatically against using any >> sort of abrasives when we discussed the job afterwards. > > how did he clean the block mating surface? was there any difference > between consumption before and after the head gasket change? > >> >> My oil consumption is due to high piston speeds > > speed has nothing to do with it - it's temperature [pressure] and > distribution in the combustion chamber. high speed generally goes > hand in hand with temperature, but the speed alone is not the cause. Piston speed has quite a lot to do with it. It's one reason the old-time long-stroke engines would wear rings very quickly. This is a well-known phenomenon. > >> and worn rings. Nothing >> else. > > worn rings will do it for sure. what's compression like? have you > done a leakdown test? > >> >> At 239K miles, consumption was an average of 2,000mi/qt. >> At 279K miles, it's an average of about 1,600mi/qt. >> >> It's declined 400mi/qt in 40,000 miles. If abrasives had been the >> culprit, It would have gone from 2,000 to 200 in a few thousand >> miles. > > not so. it depends on the abrasive. something like scotchbrite is > the worst of the worst - it has needle shaped alumina spicules that > embed in surfaces causing abrasion for ever more. they will indeed > cause ongoing degradation. but something like silicon carbide, with a > relatively even grainy shape, will generally not embed and will > sometimes, depending on circumstances, work its way out and get > carried away by the oil. excess abrasion of any kind is a problem, > but the /type/ of abrasion makes a big difference. > Well he very explicitly and deliberately didn't use anything that might drop into the bore, so that's a non-issue here. He reports that when he did my head gasket, the bores were completely unscored, but were shiny smooth all over. My heavy oil consumption predated the head gasket change. Also, my oil analysis showed very low silica in the oil, so that's not a factor either. Use of a foam air filter, or an unfiltered leak into the intake, will wear the rings/bores very quickly, but the evidence is high silica in the oil. -- Tegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ |
Re: Re: Sticky gas pedal since 2002 Accord was new
NancyK <none@000.com> wrote in news:949210_6982fdd1bad4cf466dcd397fb82d12c7
@autoboardz.com: > Tegger, > I am sorry to ask but what is a TSB? It's short for Technical Service Bulletin. It's a document Honda puts out for its franchised dealers when a problem has arisen. TSBs list the symptoms, causes, fixes, amd the VIN numbers of the cars that are suspected of having the problem. TSBs may be issued soon after the car is released, or up to years later, depending on when a particular common problem surfaces. Honda has to see a repeating pattern to the problems before they will issue a TSB. They won't issue one if only a handful of cars come in with a particular problem. -- Tegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ |
Re: Re: Sticky gas pedal since 2002 Accord was new
NancyK <none@000.com> wrote in news:949210_6982fdd1bad4cf466dcd397fb82d12c7
@autoboardz.com: > Tegger, > I am sorry to ask but what is a TSB? It's short for Technical Service Bulletin. It's a document Honda puts out for its franchised dealers when a problem has arisen. TSBs list the symptoms, causes, fixes, amd the VIN numbers of the cars that are suspected of having the problem. TSBs may be issued soon after the car is released, or up to years later, depending on when a particular common problem surfaces. Honda has to see a repeating pattern to the problems before they will issue a TSB. They won't issue one if only a handful of cars come in with a particular problem. -- Tegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ |
Re: Re: Sticky gas pedal since 2002 Accord was new
NancyK <none@000.com> wrote in news:949210_6982fdd1bad4cf466dcd397fb82d12c7
@autoboardz.com: > Tegger, > I am sorry to ask but what is a TSB? It's short for Technical Service Bulletin. It's a document Honda puts out for its franchised dealers when a problem has arisen. TSBs list the symptoms, causes, fixes, amd the VIN numbers of the cars that are suspected of having the problem. TSBs may be issued soon after the car is released, or up to years later, depending on when a particular common problem surfaces. Honda has to see a repeating pattern to the problems before they will issue a TSB. They won't issue one if only a handful of cars come in with a particular problem. -- Tegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ |
Re: Re: Sticky gas pedal since 2002 Accord was new
NancyK <none@000.com> wrote in news:949210_6982fdd1bad4cf466dcd397fb82d12c7
@autoboardz.com: > Tegger, > I am sorry to ask but what is a TSB? It's short for Technical Service Bulletin. It's a document Honda puts out for its franchised dealers when a problem has arisen. TSBs list the symptoms, causes, fixes, amd the VIN numbers of the cars that are suspected of having the problem. TSBs may be issued soon after the car is released, or up to years later, depending on when a particular common problem surfaces. Honda has to see a repeating pattern to the problems before they will issue a TSB. They won't issue one if only a handful of cars come in with a particular problem. -- Tegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ |
Re: Re: Sticky gas pedal since 2002 Accord was new
NancyK <none@000.com> wrote in news:949186
_d0f0c797e95fdfb2a89213dfb98484ed@0000.com: > Thanks very much Tegger for your reply. > I change the oil at the dealer every 3750 miles religiously even tho > the car is not driven under severe conditions. > I think I’m going to take it to the dealership I bought it from and > see if I can’t get a straight answer. > Elmo, the Honda service person said that the Odyssey and the Pilot > both DO have this problem but not the Accord. (I googled this and > found that indeed it exists for the Accord too) But I’ll be interested > in knowing what you’ve done to get yours corrected. As I say, there's only one source of oil in the intake. If you've changed your oil as religiously as you say, then drainback should be unimpaired from the valve cover baffles and there ought to be no oil in the intake. DID the dealer do a VIN check for TSBs? Did they ever bother to remove the valve cover and PCV valve to see if the baffles/valve were sludged up or not? This is not rocket science. By the way, the type of gasoline used, or the use or non-use of additives like Techron, will have absolutely zero effect on oil in the intake. The two things are totally unrelated. -- Tegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ |
Re: Re: Sticky gas pedal since 2002 Accord was new
NancyK <none@000.com> wrote in news:949186
_d0f0c797e95fdfb2a89213dfb98484ed@0000.com: > Thanks very much Tegger for your reply. > I change the oil at the dealer every 3750 miles religiously even tho > the car is not driven under severe conditions. > I think I’m going to take it to the dealership I bought it from and > see if I can’t get a straight answer. > Elmo, the Honda service person said that the Odyssey and the Pilot > both DO have this problem but not the Accord. (I googled this and > found that indeed it exists for the Accord too) But I’ll be interested > in knowing what you’ve done to get yours corrected. As I say, there's only one source of oil in the intake. If you've changed your oil as religiously as you say, then drainback should be unimpaired from the valve cover baffles and there ought to be no oil in the intake. DID the dealer do a VIN check for TSBs? Did they ever bother to remove the valve cover and PCV valve to see if the baffles/valve were sludged up or not? This is not rocket science. By the way, the type of gasoline used, or the use or non-use of additives like Techron, will have absolutely zero effect on oil in the intake. The two things are totally unrelated. -- Tegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ |
Re: Re: Sticky gas pedal since 2002 Accord was new
NancyK <none@000.com> wrote in news:949186
_d0f0c797e95fdfb2a89213dfb98484ed@0000.com: > Thanks very much Tegger for your reply. > I change the oil at the dealer every 3750 miles religiously even tho > the car is not driven under severe conditions. > I think I’m going to take it to the dealership I bought it from and > see if I can’t get a straight answer. > Elmo, the Honda service person said that the Odyssey and the Pilot > both DO have this problem but not the Accord. (I googled this and > found that indeed it exists for the Accord too) But I’ll be interested > in knowing what you’ve done to get yours corrected. As I say, there's only one source of oil in the intake. If you've changed your oil as religiously as you say, then drainback should be unimpaired from the valve cover baffles and there ought to be no oil in the intake. DID the dealer do a VIN check for TSBs? Did they ever bother to remove the valve cover and PCV valve to see if the baffles/valve were sludged up or not? This is not rocket science. By the way, the type of gasoline used, or the use or non-use of additives like Techron, will have absolutely zero effect on oil in the intake. The two things are totally unrelated. -- Tegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ |
Re: Re: Sticky gas pedal since 2002 Accord was new
NancyK <none@000.com> wrote in news:949186
_d0f0c797e95fdfb2a89213dfb98484ed@0000.com: > Thanks very much Tegger for your reply. > I change the oil at the dealer every 3750 miles religiously even tho > the car is not driven under severe conditions. > I think I’m going to take it to the dealership I bought it from and > see if I can’t get a straight answer. > Elmo, the Honda service person said that the Odyssey and the Pilot > both DO have this problem but not the Accord. (I googled this and > found that indeed it exists for the Accord too) But I’ll be interested > in knowing what you’ve done to get yours corrected. As I say, there's only one source of oil in the intake. If you've changed your oil as religiously as you say, then drainback should be unimpaired from the valve cover baffles and there ought to be no oil in the intake. DID the dealer do a VIN check for TSBs? Did they ever bother to remove the valve cover and PCV valve to see if the baffles/valve were sludged up or not? This is not rocket science. By the way, the type of gasoline used, or the use or non-use of additives like Techron, will have absolutely zero effect on oil in the intake. The two things are totally unrelated. -- Tegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ |
Re: Sticky gas pedal since 2002 Accord was new
Tegger wrote:
> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in > news:u96dnZIwyfDIt-PYnZ2dnUVZ_vyunZ2d@speakeasy.net: > >> Tegger wrote: >>> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in >>> news:FMidnRcX4r4oWeHYnZ2dnUVZ_uuqnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t: >>> >>>> Tegger wrote: >>>> ~2k per change on m1? ordinary oil is good for way more than that. >>>> provided there's no fuel mixture/ignition problems messing up >>>> combustion, m1 should double conventional mileage, especially for a >>>> freeway driver. last time i changed mine at 10k, it came out >>>> looking much the same as it did at 2k - same consistency too. >>>> should have left it in there for another 5k. especially as it had >>>> finished getting burnt and the level was constant. >>> >>> >>> I'm changing it every 3K now. It was 2.5K with Castrol GTX. I know I >>> could leave it lots longer, but I'm paranoid here; I want to milk >>> this motor for all it's worth. And when a rebuild is finally >>> imperative, I want that crankshaft to be as perfect as possible. >>> >>> My oil gets jet-black after 3K, as does our Tercel's. And the Tercel >>> has only 75K on it. >> wow, that's not good. what plugs do you use? i know you live in >> colder climes which can keep the motor running rich, but excessive >> soot in the oil is a symptom of incomplete combustion. weak spark >> from the plugs can cause that. that's not say the plugs don't fire, >> but if they're weak, combustion is not complete - hence it's always >> recommended to have new plugs when going for a smog test. cheapo >> gasoline can give poor combustion too. > > > > Plugs are OEM Denso, straight from the Toyota dealer. The gas is > whatever name-brand station is close by. The plugs are firing just fine, > as evidenced by very low HCs when the car is smogged, yes but that could just be an efficient cat. oil burning cars don't leave smoke trails like they used to - because of catalysts burning the hydrocarbons. > as well as the > obvious condition of the electrodes and insulators. that's encouraging. > > > >>> >>> There is no stabilization period. Either a car uses oil or it does >>> not. >> that's not true. if a base loses 15% of the lighter fractions, the >> [heavier] remainder will not evaporate and losses will be stabilized. >> then all you have to do is bring it back up to original level and >> it'll remain pretty constant. and that theory is backed by my >> experience, as reported above. mine's stable after about 2k, just >> when you're getting ready to change yours! > > > > So then I should notice a definite difference after 2K, and I do not. > Also, the car used to use no oil at all between changes, but that was > 200,000 miles ago. oil consumption /can/ be worn rings - as discussed before, but my car doesn't burn oil if i plod about town. it /does/ burn it if i gun it though. that's high temperature. > > And the Tercel uses no oil either. If there were any evaporation going > on, I think we'd be seeing it in the Tercel. does the tercel get driven like the integra? valve timing on that thing is real benign, so i doubt it could reach the same combustion temps, even at full throttle. > > > >>> Mine does, and no brand or viscosity is having any effect. >>> >>> >>>>> Two years ago, it was 2,200 in the dead of winter, and more like >>>>> 1,600 in the summer. My rings are just plain worn out, and nothing >>>>> will fix that except a rebuild. >>>> did your head gasket dude use any abrasives when prepping for the >>>> new one? >>> >>> >>> Absolutely not. In fact, he was most emphatically against using any >>> sort of abrasives when we discussed the job afterwards. >> how did he clean the block mating surface? was there any difference >> between consumption before and after the head gasket change? >> >>> My oil consumption is due to high piston speeds >> speed has nothing to do with it - it's temperature [pressure] and >> distribution in the combustion chamber. high speed generally goes >> hand in hand with temperature, but the speed alone is not the cause. > > > > > Piston speed has quite a lot to do with it. It's one reason the old-time > long-stroke engines would wear rings very quickly. This is a well-known > phenomenon. speed => wear. wear => consumption. speed != consumption. > > > >>> and worn rings. Nothing >>> else. >> worn rings will do it for sure. what's compression like? have you >> done a leakdown test? >> >>> At 239K miles, consumption was an average of 2,000mi/qt. >>> At 279K miles, it's an average of about 1,600mi/qt. >>> >>> It's declined 400mi/qt in 40,000 miles. If abrasives had been the >>> culprit, It would have gone from 2,000 to 200 in a few thousand >>> miles. >> not so. it depends on the abrasive. something like scotchbrite is >> the worst of the worst - it has needle shaped alumina spicules that >> embed in surfaces causing abrasion for ever more. they will indeed >> cause ongoing degradation. but something like silicon carbide, with a >> relatively even grainy shape, will generally not embed and will >> sometimes, depending on circumstances, work its way out and get >> carried away by the oil. excess abrasion of any kind is a problem, >> but the /type/ of abrasion makes a big difference. >> > > > Well he very explicitly and deliberately didn't use anything that might > drop into the bore, so that's a non-issue here. what /did/ he use? i spent hours and hours shaving crud off mine with a fine blade. no abrasives. i seriously doubt he had the time to do what i did. > He reports that when he > did my head gasket, the bores were completely unscored, but were shiny > smooth all over. ideally, they should still have shown the original cross-hatching. > My heavy oil consumption predated the head gasket > change. ok, that was what i was driving at - that's definitely wear. > > Also, my oil analysis showed very low silica in the oil, so that's not a > factor either. good. > Use of a foam air filter, or an unfiltered leak into the > intake, will wear the rings/bores very quickly, but the evidence is high > silica in the oil. indeed. regarding evaporation though, consider one last thing. just like "synthetic" oil being a different formulation today than how it was originally, there's no reason a producer can't "weight" the base oil for higher consumption today compared to before. there's ZERO content information on the bottle, so unless you have a lab, you'd never be able to tell. |
Re: Sticky gas pedal since 2002 Accord was new
Tegger wrote:
> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in > news:u96dnZIwyfDIt-PYnZ2dnUVZ_vyunZ2d@speakeasy.net: > >> Tegger wrote: >>> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in >>> news:FMidnRcX4r4oWeHYnZ2dnUVZ_uuqnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t: >>> >>>> Tegger wrote: >>>> ~2k per change on m1? ordinary oil is good for way more than that. >>>> provided there's no fuel mixture/ignition problems messing up >>>> combustion, m1 should double conventional mileage, especially for a >>>> freeway driver. last time i changed mine at 10k, it came out >>>> looking much the same as it did at 2k - same consistency too. >>>> should have left it in there for another 5k. especially as it had >>>> finished getting burnt and the level was constant. >>> >>> >>> I'm changing it every 3K now. It was 2.5K with Castrol GTX. I know I >>> could leave it lots longer, but I'm paranoid here; I want to milk >>> this motor for all it's worth. And when a rebuild is finally >>> imperative, I want that crankshaft to be as perfect as possible. >>> >>> My oil gets jet-black after 3K, as does our Tercel's. And the Tercel >>> has only 75K on it. >> wow, that's not good. what plugs do you use? i know you live in >> colder climes which can keep the motor running rich, but excessive >> soot in the oil is a symptom of incomplete combustion. weak spark >> from the plugs can cause that. that's not say the plugs don't fire, >> but if they're weak, combustion is not complete - hence it's always >> recommended to have new plugs when going for a smog test. cheapo >> gasoline can give poor combustion too. > > > > Plugs are OEM Denso, straight from the Toyota dealer. The gas is > whatever name-brand station is close by. The plugs are firing just fine, > as evidenced by very low HCs when the car is smogged, yes but that could just be an efficient cat. oil burning cars don't leave smoke trails like they used to - because of catalysts burning the hydrocarbons. > as well as the > obvious condition of the electrodes and insulators. that's encouraging. > > > >>> >>> There is no stabilization period. Either a car uses oil or it does >>> not. >> that's not true. if a base loses 15% of the lighter fractions, the >> [heavier] remainder will not evaporate and losses will be stabilized. >> then all you have to do is bring it back up to original level and >> it'll remain pretty constant. and that theory is backed by my >> experience, as reported above. mine's stable after about 2k, just >> when you're getting ready to change yours! > > > > So then I should notice a definite difference after 2K, and I do not. > Also, the car used to use no oil at all between changes, but that was > 200,000 miles ago. oil consumption /can/ be worn rings - as discussed before, but my car doesn't burn oil if i plod about town. it /does/ burn it if i gun it though. that's high temperature. > > And the Tercel uses no oil either. If there were any evaporation going > on, I think we'd be seeing it in the Tercel. does the tercel get driven like the integra? valve timing on that thing is real benign, so i doubt it could reach the same combustion temps, even at full throttle. > > > >>> Mine does, and no brand or viscosity is having any effect. >>> >>> >>>>> Two years ago, it was 2,200 in the dead of winter, and more like >>>>> 1,600 in the summer. My rings are just plain worn out, and nothing >>>>> will fix that except a rebuild. >>>> did your head gasket dude use any abrasives when prepping for the >>>> new one? >>> >>> >>> Absolutely not. In fact, he was most emphatically against using any >>> sort of abrasives when we discussed the job afterwards. >> how did he clean the block mating surface? was there any difference >> between consumption before and after the head gasket change? >> >>> My oil consumption is due to high piston speeds >> speed has nothing to do with it - it's temperature [pressure] and >> distribution in the combustion chamber. high speed generally goes >> hand in hand with temperature, but the speed alone is not the cause. > > > > > Piston speed has quite a lot to do with it. It's one reason the old-time > long-stroke engines would wear rings very quickly. This is a well-known > phenomenon. speed => wear. wear => consumption. speed != consumption. > > > >>> and worn rings. Nothing >>> else. >> worn rings will do it for sure. what's compression like? have you >> done a leakdown test? >> >>> At 239K miles, consumption was an average of 2,000mi/qt. >>> At 279K miles, it's an average of about 1,600mi/qt. >>> >>> It's declined 400mi/qt in 40,000 miles. If abrasives had been the >>> culprit, It would have gone from 2,000 to 200 in a few thousand >>> miles. >> not so. it depends on the abrasive. something like scotchbrite is >> the worst of the worst - it has needle shaped alumina spicules that >> embed in surfaces causing abrasion for ever more. they will indeed >> cause ongoing degradation. but something like silicon carbide, with a >> relatively even grainy shape, will generally not embed and will >> sometimes, depending on circumstances, work its way out and get >> carried away by the oil. excess abrasion of any kind is a problem, >> but the /type/ of abrasion makes a big difference. >> > > > Well he very explicitly and deliberately didn't use anything that might > drop into the bore, so that's a non-issue here. what /did/ he use? i spent hours and hours shaving crud off mine with a fine blade. no abrasives. i seriously doubt he had the time to do what i did. > He reports that when he > did my head gasket, the bores were completely unscored, but were shiny > smooth all over. ideally, they should still have shown the original cross-hatching. > My heavy oil consumption predated the head gasket > change. ok, that was what i was driving at - that's definitely wear. > > Also, my oil analysis showed very low silica in the oil, so that's not a > factor either. good. > Use of a foam air filter, or an unfiltered leak into the > intake, will wear the rings/bores very quickly, but the evidence is high > silica in the oil. indeed. regarding evaporation though, consider one last thing. just like "synthetic" oil being a different formulation today than how it was originally, there's no reason a producer can't "weight" the base oil for higher consumption today compared to before. there's ZERO content information on the bottle, so unless you have a lab, you'd never be able to tell. |
Re: Sticky gas pedal since 2002 Accord was new
Tegger wrote:
> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in > news:u96dnZIwyfDIt-PYnZ2dnUVZ_vyunZ2d@speakeasy.net: > >> Tegger wrote: >>> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in >>> news:FMidnRcX4r4oWeHYnZ2dnUVZ_uuqnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t: >>> >>>> Tegger wrote: >>>> ~2k per change on m1? ordinary oil is good for way more than that. >>>> provided there's no fuel mixture/ignition problems messing up >>>> combustion, m1 should double conventional mileage, especially for a >>>> freeway driver. last time i changed mine at 10k, it came out >>>> looking much the same as it did at 2k - same consistency too. >>>> should have left it in there for another 5k. especially as it had >>>> finished getting burnt and the level was constant. >>> >>> >>> I'm changing it every 3K now. It was 2.5K with Castrol GTX. I know I >>> could leave it lots longer, but I'm paranoid here; I want to milk >>> this motor for all it's worth. And when a rebuild is finally >>> imperative, I want that crankshaft to be as perfect as possible. >>> >>> My oil gets jet-black after 3K, as does our Tercel's. And the Tercel >>> has only 75K on it. >> wow, that's not good. what plugs do you use? i know you live in >> colder climes which can keep the motor running rich, but excessive >> soot in the oil is a symptom of incomplete combustion. weak spark >> from the plugs can cause that. that's not say the plugs don't fire, >> but if they're weak, combustion is not complete - hence it's always >> recommended to have new plugs when going for a smog test. cheapo >> gasoline can give poor combustion too. > > > > Plugs are OEM Denso, straight from the Toyota dealer. The gas is > whatever name-brand station is close by. The plugs are firing just fine, > as evidenced by very low HCs when the car is smogged, yes but that could just be an efficient cat. oil burning cars don't leave smoke trails like they used to - because of catalysts burning the hydrocarbons. > as well as the > obvious condition of the electrodes and insulators. that's encouraging. > > > >>> >>> There is no stabilization period. Either a car uses oil or it does >>> not. >> that's not true. if a base loses 15% of the lighter fractions, the >> [heavier] remainder will not evaporate and losses will be stabilized. >> then all you have to do is bring it back up to original level and >> it'll remain pretty constant. and that theory is backed by my >> experience, as reported above. mine's stable after about 2k, just >> when you're getting ready to change yours! > > > > So then I should notice a definite difference after 2K, and I do not. > Also, the car used to use no oil at all between changes, but that was > 200,000 miles ago. oil consumption /can/ be worn rings - as discussed before, but my car doesn't burn oil if i plod about town. it /does/ burn it if i gun it though. that's high temperature. > > And the Tercel uses no oil either. If there were any evaporation going > on, I think we'd be seeing it in the Tercel. does the tercel get driven like the integra? valve timing on that thing is real benign, so i doubt it could reach the same combustion temps, even at full throttle. > > > >>> Mine does, and no brand or viscosity is having any effect. >>> >>> >>>>> Two years ago, it was 2,200 in the dead of winter, and more like >>>>> 1,600 in the summer. My rings are just plain worn out, and nothing >>>>> will fix that except a rebuild. >>>> did your head gasket dude use any abrasives when prepping for the >>>> new one? >>> >>> >>> Absolutely not. In fact, he was most emphatically against using any >>> sort of abrasives when we discussed the job afterwards. >> how did he clean the block mating surface? was there any difference >> between consumption before and after the head gasket change? >> >>> My oil consumption is due to high piston speeds >> speed has nothing to do with it - it's temperature [pressure] and >> distribution in the combustion chamber. high speed generally goes >> hand in hand with temperature, but the speed alone is not the cause. > > > > > Piston speed has quite a lot to do with it. It's one reason the old-time > long-stroke engines would wear rings very quickly. This is a well-known > phenomenon. speed => wear. wear => consumption. speed != consumption. > > > >>> and worn rings. Nothing >>> else. >> worn rings will do it for sure. what's compression like? have you >> done a leakdown test? >> >>> At 239K miles, consumption was an average of 2,000mi/qt. >>> At 279K miles, it's an average of about 1,600mi/qt. >>> >>> It's declined 400mi/qt in 40,000 miles. If abrasives had been the >>> culprit, It would have gone from 2,000 to 200 in a few thousand >>> miles. >> not so. it depends on the abrasive. something like scotchbrite is >> the worst of the worst - it has needle shaped alumina spicules that >> embed in surfaces causing abrasion for ever more. they will indeed >> cause ongoing degradation. but something like silicon carbide, with a >> relatively even grainy shape, will generally not embed and will >> sometimes, depending on circumstances, work its way out and get >> carried away by the oil. excess abrasion of any kind is a problem, >> but the /type/ of abrasion makes a big difference. >> > > > Well he very explicitly and deliberately didn't use anything that might > drop into the bore, so that's a non-issue here. what /did/ he use? i spent hours and hours shaving crud off mine with a fine blade. no abrasives. i seriously doubt he had the time to do what i did. > He reports that when he > did my head gasket, the bores were completely unscored, but were shiny > smooth all over. ideally, they should still have shown the original cross-hatching. > My heavy oil consumption predated the head gasket > change. ok, that was what i was driving at - that's definitely wear. > > Also, my oil analysis showed very low silica in the oil, so that's not a > factor either. good. > Use of a foam air filter, or an unfiltered leak into the > intake, will wear the rings/bores very quickly, but the evidence is high > silica in the oil. indeed. regarding evaporation though, consider one last thing. just like "synthetic" oil being a different formulation today than how it was originally, there's no reason a producer can't "weight" the base oil for higher consumption today compared to before. there's ZERO content information on the bottle, so unless you have a lab, you'd never be able to tell. |
Re: Sticky gas pedal since 2002 Accord was new
Tegger wrote:
> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in > news:u96dnZIwyfDIt-PYnZ2dnUVZ_vyunZ2d@speakeasy.net: > >> Tegger wrote: >>> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in >>> news:FMidnRcX4r4oWeHYnZ2dnUVZ_uuqnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t: >>> >>>> Tegger wrote: >>>> ~2k per change on m1? ordinary oil is good for way more than that. >>>> provided there's no fuel mixture/ignition problems messing up >>>> combustion, m1 should double conventional mileage, especially for a >>>> freeway driver. last time i changed mine at 10k, it came out >>>> looking much the same as it did at 2k - same consistency too. >>>> should have left it in there for another 5k. especially as it had >>>> finished getting burnt and the level was constant. >>> >>> >>> I'm changing it every 3K now. It was 2.5K with Castrol GTX. I know I >>> could leave it lots longer, but I'm paranoid here; I want to milk >>> this motor for all it's worth. And when a rebuild is finally >>> imperative, I want that crankshaft to be as perfect as possible. >>> >>> My oil gets jet-black after 3K, as does our Tercel's. And the Tercel >>> has only 75K on it. >> wow, that's not good. what plugs do you use? i know you live in >> colder climes which can keep the motor running rich, but excessive >> soot in the oil is a symptom of incomplete combustion. weak spark >> from the plugs can cause that. that's not say the plugs don't fire, >> but if they're weak, combustion is not complete - hence it's always >> recommended to have new plugs when going for a smog test. cheapo >> gasoline can give poor combustion too. > > > > Plugs are OEM Denso, straight from the Toyota dealer. The gas is > whatever name-brand station is close by. The plugs are firing just fine, > as evidenced by very low HCs when the car is smogged, yes but that could just be an efficient cat. oil burning cars don't leave smoke trails like they used to - because of catalysts burning the hydrocarbons. > as well as the > obvious condition of the electrodes and insulators. that's encouraging. > > > >>> >>> There is no stabilization period. Either a car uses oil or it does >>> not. >> that's not true. if a base loses 15% of the lighter fractions, the >> [heavier] remainder will not evaporate and losses will be stabilized. >> then all you have to do is bring it back up to original level and >> it'll remain pretty constant. and that theory is backed by my >> experience, as reported above. mine's stable after about 2k, just >> when you're getting ready to change yours! > > > > So then I should notice a definite difference after 2K, and I do not. > Also, the car used to use no oil at all between changes, but that was > 200,000 miles ago. oil consumption /can/ be worn rings - as discussed before, but my car doesn't burn oil if i plod about town. it /does/ burn it if i gun it though. that's high temperature. > > And the Tercel uses no oil either. If there were any evaporation going > on, I think we'd be seeing it in the Tercel. does the tercel get driven like the integra? valve timing on that thing is real benign, so i doubt it could reach the same combustion temps, even at full throttle. > > > >>> Mine does, and no brand or viscosity is having any effect. >>> >>> >>>>> Two years ago, it was 2,200 in the dead of winter, and more like >>>>> 1,600 in the summer. My rings are just plain worn out, and nothing >>>>> will fix that except a rebuild. >>>> did your head gasket dude use any abrasives when prepping for the >>>> new one? >>> >>> >>> Absolutely not. In fact, he was most emphatically against using any >>> sort of abrasives when we discussed the job afterwards. >> how did he clean the block mating surface? was there any difference >> between consumption before and after the head gasket change? >> >>> My oil consumption is due to high piston speeds >> speed has nothing to do with it - it's temperature [pressure] and >> distribution in the combustion chamber. high speed generally goes >> hand in hand with temperature, but the speed alone is not the cause. > > > > > Piston speed has quite a lot to do with it. It's one reason the old-time > long-stroke engines would wear rings very quickly. This is a well-known > phenomenon. speed => wear. wear => consumption. speed != consumption. > > > >>> and worn rings. Nothing >>> else. >> worn rings will do it for sure. what's compression like? have you >> done a leakdown test? >> >>> At 239K miles, consumption was an average of 2,000mi/qt. >>> At 279K miles, it's an average of about 1,600mi/qt. >>> >>> It's declined 400mi/qt in 40,000 miles. If abrasives had been the >>> culprit, It would have gone from 2,000 to 200 in a few thousand >>> miles. >> not so. it depends on the abrasive. something like scotchbrite is >> the worst of the worst - it has needle shaped alumina spicules that >> embed in surfaces causing abrasion for ever more. they will indeed >> cause ongoing degradation. but something like silicon carbide, with a >> relatively even grainy shape, will generally not embed and will >> sometimes, depending on circumstances, work its way out and get >> carried away by the oil. excess abrasion of any kind is a problem, >> but the /type/ of abrasion makes a big difference. >> > > > Well he very explicitly and deliberately didn't use anything that might > drop into the bore, so that's a non-issue here. what /did/ he use? i spent hours and hours shaving crud off mine with a fine blade. no abrasives. i seriously doubt he had the time to do what i did. > He reports that when he > did my head gasket, the bores were completely unscored, but were shiny > smooth all over. ideally, they should still have shown the original cross-hatching. > My heavy oil consumption predated the head gasket > change. ok, that was what i was driving at - that's definitely wear. > > Also, my oil analysis showed very low silica in the oil, so that's not a > factor either. good. > Use of a foam air filter, or an unfiltered leak into the > intake, will wear the rings/bores very quickly, but the evidence is high > silica in the oil. indeed. regarding evaporation though, consider one last thing. just like "synthetic" oil being a different formulation today than how it was originally, there's no reason a producer can't "weight" the base oil for higher consumption today compared to before. there's ZERO content information on the bottle, so unless you have a lab, you'd never be able to tell. |
Re: Sticky gas pedal since 2002 Accord was new
jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in
news:maydnb6nI8hnGeLYnZ2dnUVZ_hm3nZ2d@speakeasy.ne t: > Tegger wrote: >> >> >> So then I should notice a definite difference after 2K, and I do not. >> Also, the car used to use no oil at all between changes, but that was >> 200,000 miles ago. > > oil consumption /can/ be worn rings - as discussed before, but my car > doesn't burn oil if i plod about town. it /does/ burn it if i gun it > though. that's high temperature. Definitely. And I did say that. My oil consumption goes down significantly in the winter, which is definitely due to lower oil temperatures. At zero F, it's difficult for the oil in the pan to reach 210F even with highway driving. However, my consumption is still high across the board. And since I'm on the highway about 80-90% of the time (during off-peak hours), I can't spend enough time at city speed to be able to see if there's a difference. If I ever end up rebuilding my gearbox, I'm contemplating changing the 5th gear set for something higher, to reduce revs at highways speeds. > >> >> And the Tercel uses no oil either. If there were any evaporation >> going on, I think we'd be seeing it in the Tercel. > > does the tercel get driven like the integra? valve timing on that > thing is real benign, so i doubt it could reach the same combustion > temps, even at full throttle. Yes, but as I said earlier, when my car had 75K on it, it used no oil between changes regardless of how hard the engine was driven. My driving then was much like it is now. >> >> Well he very explicitly and deliberately didn't use anything that >> might drop into the bore, so that's a non-issue here. > > what /did/ he use? i spent hours and hours shaving crud off mine with > a fine blade. no abrasives. i seriously doubt he had the time to do > what i did. He used a blade and time. He tells me there are no shortcuts when removing the head gasket remnants. He also says he's seen plenty of engines where someone has used ScotchBrite or sandpaper to clean the block face, and these invariably develop oil consumption problems very quickly, much faster than in 40K miles. > >> He reports that when he >> did my head gasket, the bores were completely unscored, but were >> shiny smooth all over. > > ideally, they should still have shown the original cross-hatching. Sorry, that's what I meant. The crosshatching wears enough to make the surface a bit shiny compared to brand new, is what I was getting at. -- Tegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ |
Re: Sticky gas pedal since 2002 Accord was new
jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in
news:maydnb6nI8hnGeLYnZ2dnUVZ_hm3nZ2d@speakeasy.ne t: > Tegger wrote: >> >> >> So then I should notice a definite difference after 2K, and I do not. >> Also, the car used to use no oil at all between changes, but that was >> 200,000 miles ago. > > oil consumption /can/ be worn rings - as discussed before, but my car > doesn't burn oil if i plod about town. it /does/ burn it if i gun it > though. that's high temperature. Definitely. And I did say that. My oil consumption goes down significantly in the winter, which is definitely due to lower oil temperatures. At zero F, it's difficult for the oil in the pan to reach 210F even with highway driving. However, my consumption is still high across the board. And since I'm on the highway about 80-90% of the time (during off-peak hours), I can't spend enough time at city speed to be able to see if there's a difference. If I ever end up rebuilding my gearbox, I'm contemplating changing the 5th gear set for something higher, to reduce revs at highways speeds. > >> >> And the Tercel uses no oil either. If there were any evaporation >> going on, I think we'd be seeing it in the Tercel. > > does the tercel get driven like the integra? valve timing on that > thing is real benign, so i doubt it could reach the same combustion > temps, even at full throttle. Yes, but as I said earlier, when my car had 75K on it, it used no oil between changes regardless of how hard the engine was driven. My driving then was much like it is now. >> >> Well he very explicitly and deliberately didn't use anything that >> might drop into the bore, so that's a non-issue here. > > what /did/ he use? i spent hours and hours shaving crud off mine with > a fine blade. no abrasives. i seriously doubt he had the time to do > what i did. He used a blade and time. He tells me there are no shortcuts when removing the head gasket remnants. He also says he's seen plenty of engines where someone has used ScotchBrite or sandpaper to clean the block face, and these invariably develop oil consumption problems very quickly, much faster than in 40K miles. > >> He reports that when he >> did my head gasket, the bores were completely unscored, but were >> shiny smooth all over. > > ideally, they should still have shown the original cross-hatching. Sorry, that's what I meant. The crosshatching wears enough to make the surface a bit shiny compared to brand new, is what I was getting at. -- Tegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ |
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