Toyolet prius efficiency
 

http://omidr.typepad.com/torque/2007...s_prius_i.html

maybe fewer hybrid crap will be forced on our shoulders after
all and Ed Markey would finally shut up?
Did Canada sign Kyoto protocol?

Re: Toyolet prius efficiency
 

<isquat@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1174515392.032656.111560@o5g2000hsb.googlegro ups.com...
> http://omidr.typepad.com/torque/2007...s_prius_i.html
>
> maybe fewer hybrid crap will be forced on our shoulders after
> all and Ed Markey would finally shut up?
> Did Canada sign Kyoto protocol?
>
>

Wow - that screwy story is being quoted all over the place. It's hard to
know where to start with what's wrong with it, but a bit of checking into
the history and current status of that nickle plant in Ontario should
clarify just how bogus the story is. After that, consider how miniscule the
fraction of nickle output that goes into Prius batteries is and the
ludicrous assertion that the expected life of a hybrid is 100K miles (mine
had more than that when I bought it, and it drives like new)....

Don't worry, though. You probably won't be forced into buying a hybrid
anytime soon. When conventional power trains can't compete in either power
or efficiency, your choices may be limited, but I bet you could still buy a
20th century car even 30 years from now. Maybe even one with 4-wheel drum
brakes and recirculating ball steering and a Kettering ignition.

When I was a kid fascinated by electronics, the limitations and cost and
complexity of transistors spawned pronouncements that transistors would
never replace tubes. I knew tubes were finally doomed when transistors
became cheaper than tube sockets. Funny what technology does to our world.

Mike

Re: Toyolet prius efficiency
 

On 21 Mar 2007 15:16:32 -0700, isquat@gmail.com wrote:

>http://omidr.typepad.com/torque/2007...s_prius_i.html
>
>maybe fewer hybrid crap will be forced on our shoulders after
>all and Ed Markey would finally shut up?
>Did Canada sign Kyoto protocol?


This site is pretty silly, claiming that a Prius is more harmful to
the environment than a Hummer. There argument sums up to:

Zinc for the battery is mined and this one zinc mine was an
environmental disaster dating back more than 50 years. Response:
Environmental standards have improved a lot in the last 50 years. The
fact that the mine is in Canada assures me that it is no running in an
environmentally sound manner.

The battery has a limited life and must be disposed of. Response:
systems are well in place to recycle the materials which will reduce
the need to mine new ore.

The materials for the battery are moved around the world during
manufacturing. That wastes energy. Response: Silliest argument of
all. This is true of any vehicle and most any large or complex
manufactured item. How does the cost of moving those batteries
compare with the cost of moving the steel for the Hummer from Korea or
Japan or China to the US? How far did the coke and iron have to
travel to the steel mill?

The Hummer will last 300,000 miles and the Prius will only last
100,000. Response: Pure speculation. If gas goes to $5, I could see
the Hummer getting taken out of service immediately. Even at $3,
putting $2K into a 100,000 mile, 45 mpg Prius makes good economic
sense if you think it will go at least another 50,000. Most long-term
Toyota (and Honda) owners will think that is a pretty good bet.

Some conventional subcompacts can get almost 45 mpg. Response: Prius
isn't a subcompact and Hummers get about 12.

Re: Toyolet prius efficiency
 

On Mar 21, 5:51 pm, "Michael Pardee"
> never replace tubes. I knew tubes were finally doomed when transistors
> became cheaper than tube sockets. Funny what technology does to our world.
>
Exacltly. Prius will be remembered at the vacuum tubes of the
early 21st century. I don't like rebooting my cars a few times
a day, but that might just be me silly. I wonder if the same
problems are delaying the production of the bastardized Elise
or Tesla has a simpler system. Someone is going to buy that fat pig
anyhow. There is Exige for half the price with 500 pounds
or so shaved for the rest of the population.

> Response: Prius
> isn't a subcompact <snip>

That's how it's life began before Toyoda knitting corporation weighted
it down with the nickel anchor.

Re: Toyolet prius efficiency
 

It's true that the realistic mpg of Prius is about 45 mpg, which is
only about 30% better than the 35 mpg I get from my gasoline Civic.
But I think most people neglect the emissions benefit of hybrids:
typically 90% less than gasoline cars. And probably way more than that
compared to a Hummer.

Re: Toyolet prius efficiency
 

<isquat@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1174545351.610427.42710@o5g2000hsb.googlegrou ps.com...
> On Mar 21, 5:51 pm, "Michael Pardee"
>> never replace tubes. I knew tubes were finally doomed when transistors
>> became cheaper than tube sockets. Funny what technology does to our
>> world.
>>
> Exacltly. Prius will be remembered at the vacuum tubes of the
> early 21st century. I don't like rebooting my cars a few times
> a day, but that might just be me silly. I wonder if the same
> problems are delaying the production of the bastardized Elise
> or Tesla has a simpler system. Someone is going to buy that fat pig
> anyhow. There is Exige for half the price with 500 pounds
> or so shaved for the rest of the population.
>
>> Response: Prius
>> isn't a subcompact <snip>
>
> That's how it's life began before Toyoda knitting corporation weighted
> it down with the nickel anchor.
>
>

I see you have no experience with the Prius. Mine is the second one in the
family; we bought my wife's 2002 new nearly 5 years ago and it has been by
far the most trouble free car I've ever owned. It has needed only routine
maintenance, tires and a replacement windshield (Arizona should be called
"the land of rocks") in all that time. The 2002 I bought with 103K miles
last year has almost exactly the same service history.

I got excited about hybrid technology when I first heard about it around 20
years ago. It's the answer to an engineer's prayer: The flexibility and
responsiveness of an electric car and the range of a fuel powered car.
Better yet, although car engines very rarely get into double-digit
efficiency range, a serial hybrid (not available commercially yet due to the
state of development of the higher power electrics) can manage 15-20%
efficiency.

In the meantime, the series-parallel hybrid power train in the Prius is only
one of its features and was not even in the original design. It was designed
from the ground up as a 21st century vehicle (the project was known as G21 -
see http://www.vfaq.net/docs/Prius_that_shook_world.pdf ). They did a great
job with the interior volume; we've taken long trips with 5 people in my
daughter's '93 Accord and in my wife's 2002 Prius... the Prius is definitely
roomier in back. The current models are even roomier, fitting the midsize
mold.

With the severe weather gone, I'm getting mid-40s mpg again. Much of that is
3 mile commutes, but I got 44 measured mpg on a 340 mile round trip to
Phoenix, complete with 75 mph freeways and a 6000 ft elevation change. And
we haven't seen anything yet.

(And you do reboot your car several times on an average day... that's the
rrr...rrr noise you hear when you turn the ignition key all the way to the
"start" position.)

Mike

Re: Toyolet prius efficiency
 

On Mar 22, 12:01 am, "Bucky" <uw_badg...@email.com> wrote:
> It's true that the realistic mpg of Prius is about 45 mpg, which is
> only about 30% better than the 35 mpg I get from my gasoline Civic.
> But I think most people neglect the emissions benefit of hybrids:
> typically 90% less than gasoline cars. And probably way more than that

The one I was next to the other day in a parking lot DID have
the gasoline engine idling so I don't see where you pulled the
90% number out of. From the tesla marketing materials?
That one surely does not run the motor at idle.

Re: Toyolet prius efficiency
 

Its a similar situation with computer chips and solar cells
considering the nasty chemicals that go into manufacturing them.
There several toxic waste sites around Silicon Valley from
chemical leaks in older days when they were less careful.
Its improved now, or been offshored.

Or that Google is one of the largest consumers of electric
power in theworld because it has the worlds largest computer
system- 2 million CPUS over 60 data sites.
But to be fair, Google is also the most efficient computer
operator in the world per terabyte of storage because they
have paid both economic and ecological attention to
efficient computing.

Being green isnt easy.

Re: Toyolet prius efficiency
 

On Mar 22, 4:57 am, "Michael Pardee"
> With the severe weather gone, I'm getting mid-40s mpg again. Much of that is
> 3 mile commutes, but I got 44 measured mpg on a 340 mile round trip to
> Phoenix, complete with 75 mph freeways and a 6000 ft elevation change. And
> we haven't seen anything yet.

pluck the high tech brick out and put and old tech
battery in and you'd get an exact same highway mileage.
If the software can manage the battery switch that is.
Can it?

Re: Toyolet prius efficiency
 

On Mar 22, 2:01 am, "Bucky" <uw_badg...@email.com> wrote:
> It's true that the realistic mpg of Prius is about 45 mpg, which is
> only about 30% better than the 35 mpg I get from my gasoline Civic.
> But I think most people neglect the emissions benefit of hybrids:
> typically 90% less than gasoline cars. And probably way more than that
> compared to a Hummer.


Doesnt follow?
A gallon of gasoline burned in a Civic or a Hybrid still puts
22 pounds of carbon dioxide in the air. Its just the Hybrid
goes 40% further per gallon.

Re: Toyolet prius efficiency
 

On 21 Mar 2007 23:35:51 -0700, isquat@gmail.com wrote:

>On Mar 21, 5:51 pm, "Michael Pardee"
>> never replace tubes. I knew tubes were finally doomed when transistors
>> became cheaper than tube sockets. Funny what technology does to our world.
>>
>Exacltly. Prius will be remembered at the vacuum tubes of the
>early 21st century.

Is someone claiming that the 2007 Prius will be cutting edge
technology for the next 50 years?

As for vacuum tubes, most televisions had them up until the 1980s or
so. Assuming you are old enough, did you postpone purchasing a
television until then because they had tube technology?

>I don't like rebooting my cars a few times
>a day, but that might just be me silly.

Rebooting?

> I wonder if the same
>problems are delaying the production of the bastardized Elise
>or Tesla has a simpler system.

What problems? I have not hard of any serious design defects with the
Prius.

> Someone is going to buy that fat pig
>anyhow. There is Exige for half the price with 500 pounds
>or so shaved for the rest of the population.

What does the Tesla have to do with the Prius?

>
>> Response: Prius
>> isn't a subcompact <snip>
>
>That's how it's life began before Toyoda knitting corporation weighted
>it down with the nickel anchor.

??? The current Prius was designed for the ground up to be a mid-size
hybrid car.

Re: Toyolet prius efficiency
 

On Mar 22, 8:43 am, isq...@gmail.com wrote:
> The one I was next to the other day in a parking lot DID have
> the gasoline engine idling so I don't see where you pulled the
> 90% number out of. From the tesla marketing materials?
> That one surely does not run the motor at idle.

man, you are skeptical. Tesla? that's an all-electric. which probably
produces more emissions than a hybrid because the electricity is
generated by burning coal, natural gas, and oil.

"Emissions - 89 percent fewer smog-forming emissions than the average
new car, exceeding the standards for a Super Ultra Low Emission
Vehicle (SULEV)"
http://www.hybridcars.com/compacts-s...-overview.html

The reason why hybrids can have near zero emissions is because they
keep the engine running at peak efficiency as much as possible.

Re: Toyolet prius efficiency
 

On Mar 22, 9:23 am, "rick++" <rick...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Doesnt follow?
> A gallon of gasoline burned in a Civic or a Hybrid still puts
> 22 pounds of carbon dioxide in the air. Its just the Hybrid
> goes 40% further per gallon.

car emissions consist of hydrocarbons, nox, carbon monoxide, and
carbon dioxide. A lot of the emissions occur when the engine is in a
transitional state or not running at optimal efficiency. With a
parallel battery power, hybrids can keep engines running at optimal
efficiency (or off). Hybrids produce less emissions than simply the
difference in mpg.

Re: Toyolet prius efficiency
 

<isquat@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1174580350.583597.74160@o5g2000hsb.googlegrou ps.com...
> On Mar 22, 4:57 am, "Michael Pardee"
>> With the severe weather gone, I'm getting mid-40s mpg again. Much of that
>> is
>> 3 mile commutes, but I got 44 measured mpg on a 340 mile round trip to
>> Phoenix, complete with 75 mph freeways and a 6000 ft elevation change.
>> And
>> we haven't seen anything yet.
>
> pluck the high tech brick out and put and old tech
> battery in and you'd get an exact same highway mileage.
> If the software can manage the battery switch that is.
> Can it?
>
>
I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. If you are recommending
replacing the NiMH battery with lead-acid, no, it can't be done. The NiMH is
deeply integrated into the hybrid system via the cell bank monitoring. Since
the SOC/voltage curves for lead-acid are not the same as for NiMH the
battery would either fail to receive a charge or would persistently
overcharge.

Considering the 12V AGM lead-acid "aux" battery in Prius cars is as
troublesome as the 12V battery in other cars and the NiMH main battery is
extremely reliable at least up to the 200K mile mark (based on owner
reports), I don't see the reason to switch battery types.

Mike

Re: Toyolet prius efficiency
 

On Mar 22, 8:49 pm, Gordon McGrew <RgEmMcOgVr...@mindspring.com>
wrote:
> On 21 Mar 2007 23:35:51 -0700, isq...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >On Mar 21, 5:51 pm, "Michael Pardee"
> >> never replace tubes. I knew tubes were finally doomed when transistors
> >> became cheaper than tube sockets. Funny what technology does to our world.
>
> >Exacltly. Prius will be remembered at the vacuum tubes of the
> >early 21st century.
>
> Is someone claiming that the 2007 Prius will be cutting edge
> technology for the next 50 years?
>
It was a piece of junk when it came out.
The only notable part is the hybrid power train.
Remove that and you are left with an obviously shitty platform.

> As for vacuum tubes, most televisions had them up until the 1980s or
> so. Assuming you are old enough, did you postpone purchasing a
> television until then because they had tube technology?

Tubes have their place in high end audio. Just like the prius:
niche technology adopted far wider than it should have been.
Taxis and mail delivery: maybe. I don't see what use
there is to the general public.

> >I don't like rebooting my cars a few times
> >a day, but that might just be me silly.
>
> Rebooting?

http://www.caranddriver.com/features...ot-hybrid.html

> > I wonder if the same
> >problems are delaying the production of the bastardized Elise
> >or Tesla has a simpler system.
>
> What problems? I have not hard of any serious design defects with the
> Prius.

Design defects? You mean aside from being a boring piece of ? As
for production defects there are plenty:
http://www.caranddriver.com/dailyaut...s-hybrids.html
http://www.caranddriver.com/dailyaut...s-hybrids.html
if you google enough you'd find a bit more with the older
Echo based crappola.

> > Someone is going to buy that fat pig
> >anyhow. There is Exige for half the price with 500 pounds
> >or so shaved for the rest of the population.
>
> What does the Tesla have to do with the Prius?

Same buggy electrical system I suppose. Too early to tell,
but judging by the delayed shipment of the first ones
they had serious problems going into production even
with the helping hand of Lotus. In all fairness the first
crop of bmw 3xx had their share of electrical problems also.
The problem is: prius is not half the car beemer is.