Re: What is the Problem - UPDATE
 

"Jonathan Upright" <qaesar1@carolina.rr.com> wrote in message
news:Xp2Zd.25911$_i3.836346@twister.southeast.rr.c om...
>
> Anyway, back to the subject: I removed the distributor today and found
> that there IS some play in the rotor arm. Also, I took the cap off the
> distributor to find that the contacts inside had grooves in them.
> (Accompanied by a little pile of metal shavings at the bottom of the cap)
> The grooves are cut about 1/4 of the way down from the top of the
> contacts, almost shearing the tops off. My rotor button contact is worn
> down really bad too. So with this fact in mind, would you think it's safe
> to say the problem is the distributor?
>
> Thanx,
>
> Jonathan
>
> P.S. I will definitely need a new cap and rotor button now, in addition
> to another distributor... :-(

It sounds like the distributor does need to be replaced, based on the visual
inspection. Whether that is your fundamental problem is another story.

The ECU code indicates the ECU is unable to set a correct mixture, for
whatever reason. Normal distributor problems will not cause that, although
if the abnormal wear is causing the timing to be erratic (*something* is
very wrong, we already know) it could cause the ECU to complain the mixture
is all over the chart - Error 16.

There are two critical diagnostics I'm not seeing here - ignition timing and
fuel pressure.

The timing will tell the story on how much the distributor is contributing
to the problem. If the timing mark hops around like a fountain in a strobe
light - no two flashes near each other - the engine won't run right until
the distributor is replaced. If the mark shifts with the engine speed's
wobbles but isn't being any wilder than the engine is, the distributor may
be bad but it isn't what is driving your symptoms.

The fuel pressure will tell you if the injectors are getting a steady supply
of fuel. With the vacuum line (I assume your model has one - most do)
detached from the fuel pressure regulator the fuel pressure should be steady
as a rock. If not, "jim beam" is on target about the main relay or possibly
the fuel pump. Of couse, if the pressure is way high the regulator itself is
bad.

You could spend a dismaying amount of money letting mechanics (and us) guess
for lack of a couple of diagnostics to tell us all what is good or bad.

Mike

Re: What is the Problem - UPDATE
 

"Jonathan Upright" <qaesar1@carolina.rr.com> wrote in message
news:Xp2Zd.25911$_i3.836346@twister.southeast.rr.c om...
>
> Anyway, back to the subject: I removed the distributor today and found
> that there IS some play in the rotor arm. Also, I took the cap off the
> distributor to find that the contacts inside had grooves in them.
> (Accompanied by a little pile of metal shavings at the bottom of the cap)
> The grooves are cut about 1/4 of the way down from the top of the
> contacts, almost shearing the tops off. My rotor button contact is worn
> down really bad too. So with this fact in mind, would you think it's safe
> to say the problem is the distributor?
>
> Thanx,
>
> Jonathan
>
> P.S. I will definitely need a new cap and rotor button now, in addition
> to another distributor... :-(

It sounds like the distributor does need to be replaced, based on the visual
inspection. Whether that is your fundamental problem is another story.

The ECU code indicates the ECU is unable to set a correct mixture, for
whatever reason. Normal distributor problems will not cause that, although
if the abnormal wear is causing the timing to be erratic (*something* is
very wrong, we already know) it could cause the ECU to complain the mixture
is all over the chart - Error 16.

There are two critical diagnostics I'm not seeing here - ignition timing and
fuel pressure.

The timing will tell the story on how much the distributor is contributing
to the problem. If the timing mark hops around like a fountain in a strobe
light - no two flashes near each other - the engine won't run right until
the distributor is replaced. If the mark shifts with the engine speed's
wobbles but isn't being any wilder than the engine is, the distributor may
be bad but it isn't what is driving your symptoms.

The fuel pressure will tell you if the injectors are getting a steady supply
of fuel. With the vacuum line (I assume your model has one - most do)
detached from the fuel pressure regulator the fuel pressure should be steady
as a rock. If not, "jim beam" is on target about the main relay or possibly
the fuel pump. Of couse, if the pressure is way high the regulator itself is
bad.

You could spend a dismaying amount of money letting mechanics (and us) guess
for lack of a couple of diagnostics to tell us all what is good or bad.

Mike

Re: What is the Problem - UPDATE
 

"jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
news:1110769537.d5025d41798231294c66400351221d25@t eranews...
> Jonathan Upright wrote:
<snip>

> be systematic. replace the rotor & cap & see if that makes a difference.
> move on from there. eliminate, eliminate, eliminate.

But if the rotor arm is loose, I would ruin another new cap and rotor,
causing me to waste $35. Your approach is logical, but I have to weigh my
options on this, keeping my tight budget in mind. (See below)

> when you say you have play in the rotor arm, is that side to side play in
> the spindle after you've taken the arm off? sometimes the rotor plastic
> comes loose from its metal core - that'll save you the cost of a new one.

Yes, the whole thing is loose. I made sure it wasn't just play in the rotor
button itself. The spindle on the inside will move back and forth about
2-3mm in any and every direction. I assume it's not supposed to do that? I
also noticed this, when I turn the distributor, it makes the EXACT same
scratching noise I heard before these problems started. Is it supposed to
make a scratching noise when you turn it? (I never heard a scratching noise
before, but I've never taken a distributor off before and turned it by hand
either)

> you're in "rip-em-off" territory here. be careful.

Well, I found a good used distributor on eBay for $27.75 (after shipping)
which I've already bought. (MUCH better than $135 at a junk yard...rotor
and cap included...that's cheaper than a brand-new cap and rotor at Advance
Auto) I'm going to install it and see what happens. I hope to receive the
item by the end of this week and will report back the results. Since I'm
doing all the work myself, the only way I could get "ripped off" is through
unnecessary, but relatively inexpensive parts. Luckily, one of the guys
that works at the junk yard where I got the [unnecessary] throttle body goes
to my church, and he's going to let me exchange it for any other part(s) I
need that costs the same. (They usually don't do exchanges...it pays to
know the right people) ;-)

Thanks again for all your help! :-)

Jonathan

Re: What is the Problem - UPDATE
 

"Randolph" <trash@junkmail.com> wrote in message
news:423509A1.F71F2767@junkmail.com...
> Jonathan Upright wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> Anyway, back to the subject: I removed the distributor today and found
>> that there IS some play in the rotor arm. Also, I took the cap off the
>> distributor to find that the contacts inside had grooves in them.
>> (Accompanied by a little pile of metal shavings at the bottom of the
>> cap) The grooves are cut about 1/4 of the way down from the top of the
>> contacts, almost shearing the tops off. My rotor button contact is worn
>> down really bad too. So with this fact in mind, would you think it's
>> safe to say the problem is the distributor?
>
> It certainly seems you have a problem with the distributor. The contacts
> in the cap should not touch the rotor at all, so if the rotor has ground
> grooves in the contacts, something is wrong. I have never touched the
> distributor on my Honda, but from other cars I know that it can take
> quite a bit of force to get the rotor properly seated. Perhaps the rotor
> was improperly installed or has come loose?
>
> When you say there is some play in the rotor, how much is "some"? Is it
> the rotor that moves on the shaft, or can you wiggle the entire shaft?
>
> I completely agree with Jim Beam and others who say your ECU does not
> need replacement. Sensors and actuators are much more likely to fail
> than the ECU.

[See response I wrote to "Jim Beam"]

Re: What is the Problem - UPDATE
 

"Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in message
news:VMudnYDVm_kXFajfRVn-ow@sedona.net...
> "Jonathan Upright" <qaesar1@carolina.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:Xp2Zd.25911$_i3.836346@twister.southeast.rr.c om...
>>
>> Anyway, back to the subject: I removed the distributor today and found
>> that there IS some play in the rotor arm. Also, I took the cap off the
>> distributor to find that the contacts inside had grooves in them.
>> (Accompanied by a little pile of metal shavings at the bottom of the cap)
>> The grooves are cut about 1/4 of the way down from the top of the
>> contacts, almost shearing the tops off. My rotor button contact is worn
>> down really bad too. So with this fact in mind, would you think it's
>> safe to say the problem is the distributor?
>>
>> Thanx,
>>
>> Jonathan
>>
>> P.S. I will definitely need a new cap and rotor button now, in addition
>> to another distributor... :-(
>
> It sounds like the distributor does need to be replaced, based on the
> visual inspection. Whether that is your fundamental problem is another
> story.
>
> The ECU code indicates the ECU is unable to set a correct mixture, for
> whatever reason. Normal distributor problems will not cause that, although
> if the abnormal wear is causing the timing to be erratic (*something* is
> very wrong, we already know) it could cause the ECU to complain the
> mixture is all over the chart - Error 16.
>
> There are two critical diagnostics I'm not seeing here - ignition timing
> and fuel pressure.
>
> The timing will tell the story on how much the distributor is contributing
> to the problem. If the timing mark hops around like a fountain in a strobe
> light - no two flashes near each other - the engine won't run right until
> the distributor is replaced. If the mark shifts with the engine speed's
> wobbles but isn't being any wilder than the engine is, the distributor may
> be bad but it isn't what is driving your symptoms.
>
> The fuel pressure will tell you if the injectors are getting a steady
> supply of fuel. With the vacuum line (I assume your model has one - most
> do) detached from the fuel pressure regulator the fuel pressure should be
> steady as a rock. If not, "jim beam" is on target about the main relay or
> possibly the fuel pump. Of couse, if the pressure is way high the
> regulator itself is bad.
>
> You could spend a dismaying amount of money letting mechanics (and us)
> guess for lack of a couple of diagnostics to tell us all what is good or
> bad.
>
> Mike

[See response I wrote to "Jim Beam"]

Re: What is the Problem - UPDATE
 

"Randolph" <trash@junkmail.com> wrote in message
news:423509A1.F71F2767@junkmail.com...
> Jonathan Upright wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> Anyway, back to the subject: I removed the distributor today and found
>> that there IS some play in the rotor arm. Also, I took the cap off the
>> distributor to find that the contacts inside had grooves in them.
>> (Accompanied by a little pile of metal shavings at the bottom of the
>> cap) The grooves are cut about 1/4 of the way down from the top of the
>> contacts, almost shearing the tops off. My rotor button contact is worn
>> down really bad too. So with this fact in mind, would you think it's
>> safe to say the problem is the distributor?
>
> It certainly seems you have a problem with the distributor. The contacts
> in the cap should not touch the rotor at all, so if the rotor has ground
> grooves in the contacts, something is wrong. I have never touched the
> distributor on my Honda, but from other cars I know that it can take
> quite a bit of force to get the rotor properly seated. Perhaps the rotor
> was improperly installed or has come loose?
>
> When you say there is some play in the rotor, how much is "some"? Is it
> the rotor that moves on the shaft, or can you wiggle the entire shaft?
>
> I completely agree with Jim Beam and others who say your ECU does not
> need replacement. Sensors and actuators are much more likely to fail
> than the ECU.

[See response I wrote to "Jim Beam"]

Re: What is the Problem - UPDATE
 

"Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in message
news:VMudnYDVm_kXFajfRVn-ow@sedona.net...
> "Jonathan Upright" <qaesar1@carolina.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:Xp2Zd.25911$_i3.836346@twister.southeast.rr.c om...
>>
>> Anyway, back to the subject: I removed the distributor today and found
>> that there IS some play in the rotor arm. Also, I took the cap off the
>> distributor to find that the contacts inside had grooves in them.
>> (Accompanied by a little pile of metal shavings at the bottom of the cap)
>> The grooves are cut about 1/4 of the way down from the top of the
>> contacts, almost shearing the tops off. My rotor button contact is worn
>> down really bad too. So with this fact in mind, would you think it's
>> safe to say the problem is the distributor?
>>
>> Thanx,
>>
>> Jonathan
>>
>> P.S. I will definitely need a new cap and rotor button now, in addition
>> to another distributor... :-(
>
> It sounds like the distributor does need to be replaced, based on the
> visual inspection. Whether that is your fundamental problem is another
> story.
>
> The ECU code indicates the ECU is unable to set a correct mixture, for
> whatever reason. Normal distributor problems will not cause that, although
> if the abnormal wear is causing the timing to be erratic (*something* is
> very wrong, we already know) it could cause the ECU to complain the
> mixture is all over the chart - Error 16.
>
> There are two critical diagnostics I'm not seeing here - ignition timing
> and fuel pressure.
>
> The timing will tell the story on how much the distributor is contributing
> to the problem. If the timing mark hops around like a fountain in a strobe
> light - no two flashes near each other - the engine won't run right until
> the distributor is replaced. If the mark shifts with the engine speed's
> wobbles but isn't being any wilder than the engine is, the distributor may
> be bad but it isn't what is driving your symptoms.
>
> The fuel pressure will tell you if the injectors are getting a steady
> supply of fuel. With the vacuum line (I assume your model has one - most
> do) detached from the fuel pressure regulator the fuel pressure should be
> steady as a rock. If not, "jim beam" is on target about the main relay or
> possibly the fuel pump. Of couse, if the pressure is way high the
> regulator itself is bad.
>
> You could spend a dismaying amount of money letting mechanics (and us)
> guess for lack of a couple of diagnostics to tell us all what is good or
> bad.
>
> Mike

[See response I wrote to "Jim Beam"]

Re: What is the Problem - UPDATE
 

"jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
news:1110769537.d5025d41798231294c66400351221d25@t eranews...
> Jonathan Upright wrote:
<snip>

> be systematic. replace the rotor & cap & see if that makes a difference.
> move on from there. eliminate, eliminate, eliminate.

But if the rotor arm is loose, I would ruin another new cap and rotor,
causing me to waste $35. Your approach is logical, but I have to weigh my
options on this, keeping my tight budget in mind. (See below)

> when you say you have play in the rotor arm, is that side to side play in
> the spindle after you've taken the arm off? sometimes the rotor plastic
> comes loose from its metal core - that'll save you the cost of a new one.

Yes, the whole thing is loose. I made sure it wasn't just play in the rotor
button itself. The spindle on the inside will move back and forth about
2-3mm in any and every direction. I assume it's not supposed to do that? I
also noticed this, when I turn the distributor, it makes the EXACT same
scratching noise I heard before these problems started. Is it supposed to
make a scratching noise when you turn it? (I never heard a scratching noise
before, but I've never taken a distributor off before and turned it by hand
either)

> you're in "rip-em-off" territory here. be careful.

Well, I found a good used distributor on eBay for $27.75 (after shipping)
which I've already bought. (MUCH better than $135 at a junk yard...rotor
and cap included...that's cheaper than a brand-new cap and rotor at Advance
Auto) I'm going to install it and see what happens. I hope to receive the
item by the end of this week and will report back the results. Since I'm
doing all the work myself, the only way I could get "ripped off" is through
unnecessary, but relatively inexpensive parts. Luckily, one of the guys
that works at the junk yard where I got the [unnecessary] throttle body goes
to my church, and he's going to let me exchange it for any other part(s) I
need that costs the same. (They usually don't do exchanges...it pays to
know the right people) ;-)

Thanks again for all your help! :-)

Jonathan

Re: What is the Problem - UPDATE
 

One other thing I meant to mention in my previous post. There was also
a small amount of oil INSIDE the distributor cap. Don't know how long
it had been in there, but if I had to guess at the amount, I'd have to
say about 2-3 drops worth. (Drop = same amount as if you were using an
eye-dropper or a syringe without a needle) I know oil in the cap is bad
news, and there is only 1 way it could have gotten in there...by going
through the distributor somehow. (I checked the cap, it was NOT loose or
cracked)

Thanx again! :-)

Jonathan

Re: What is the Problem - UPDATE
 

One other thing I meant to mention in my previous post. There was also
a small amount of oil INSIDE the distributor cap. Don't know how long
it had been in there, but if I had to guess at the amount, I'd have to
say about 2-3 drops worth. (Drop = same amount as if you were using an
eye-dropper or a syringe without a needle) I know oil in the cap is bad
news, and there is only 1 way it could have gotten in there...by going
through the distributor somehow. (I checked the cap, it was NOT loose or
cracked)

Thanx again! :-)

Jonathan

Re: What is the Problem - UPDATE
 

K-town wrote:
> "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
> news:1110769537.d5025d41798231294c66400351221d25@t eranews...
>
>>Jonathan Upright wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>>be systematic. replace the rotor & cap & see if that makes a difference.
>>move on from there. eliminate, eliminate, eliminate.
>
>
> But if the rotor arm is loose, I would ruin another new cap and rotor,
> causing me to waste $35. Your approach is logical, but I have to weigh my
> options on this, keeping my tight budget in mind. (See below)
>
>
>>when you say you have play in the rotor arm, is that side to side play in
>>the spindle after you've taken the arm off? sometimes the rotor plastic
>>comes loose from its metal core - that'll save you the cost of a new one.
>
>
> Yes, the whole thing is loose. I made sure it wasn't just play in the rotor
> button itself. The spindle on the inside will move back and forth about
> 2-3mm in any and every direction. I assume it's not supposed to do that?

no. if the spindle is all sloppy, a new distributor is required as the
bearings are not user servicable. when you get your new one, be sure to
replace the rotor & cap - the rotor has been redesigned to help lessen
the chances of this happening & the cap's been redesigned accordingly.

> I
> also noticed this, when I turn the distributor, it makes the EXACT same
> scratching noise I heard before these problems started. Is it supposed to
> make a scratching noise when you turn it? (I never heard a scratching noise
> before, but I've never taken a distributor off before and turned it by hand
> either)
>
>
>>you're in "rip-em-off" territory here. be careful.
>
>
> Well, I found a good used distributor on eBay for $27.75 (after shipping)
> which I've already bought. (MUCH better than $135 at a junk yard...rotor
> and cap included...that's cheaper than a brand-new cap and rotor at Advance
> Auto) I'm going to install it and see what happens. I hope to receive the
> item by the end of this week and will report back the results. Since I'm
> doing all the work myself, the only way I could get "ripped off" is through
> unnecessary, but relatively inexpensive parts. Luckily, one of the guys
> that works at the junk yard where I got the [unnecessary] throttle body goes
> to my church, and he's going to let me exchange it for any other part(s) I
> need that costs the same. (They usually don't do exchanges...it pays to
> know the right people) ;-)
>
> Thanks again for all your help! :-)
>
> Jonathan
>
>
don't forget to resolder your main relay!

Re: What is the Problem - UPDATE
 

K-town wrote:
> "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
> news:1110769537.d5025d41798231294c66400351221d25@t eranews...
>
>>Jonathan Upright wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>>be systematic. replace the rotor & cap & see if that makes a difference.
>>move on from there. eliminate, eliminate, eliminate.
>
>
> But if the rotor arm is loose, I would ruin another new cap and rotor,
> causing me to waste $35. Your approach is logical, but I have to weigh my
> options on this, keeping my tight budget in mind. (See below)
>
>
>>when you say you have play in the rotor arm, is that side to side play in
>>the spindle after you've taken the arm off? sometimes the rotor plastic
>>comes loose from its metal core - that'll save you the cost of a new one.
>
>
> Yes, the whole thing is loose. I made sure it wasn't just play in the rotor
> button itself. The spindle on the inside will move back and forth about
> 2-3mm in any and every direction. I assume it's not supposed to do that?

no. if the spindle is all sloppy, a new distributor is required as the
bearings are not user servicable. when you get your new one, be sure to
replace the rotor & cap - the rotor has been redesigned to help lessen
the chances of this happening & the cap's been redesigned accordingly.

> I
> also noticed this, when I turn the distributor, it makes the EXACT same
> scratching noise I heard before these problems started. Is it supposed to
> make a scratching noise when you turn it? (I never heard a scratching noise
> before, but I've never taken a distributor off before and turned it by hand
> either)
>
>
>>you're in "rip-em-off" territory here. be careful.
>
>
> Well, I found a good used distributor on eBay for $27.75 (after shipping)
> which I've already bought. (MUCH better than $135 at a junk yard...rotor
> and cap included...that's cheaper than a brand-new cap and rotor at Advance
> Auto) I'm going to install it and see what happens. I hope to receive the
> item by the end of this week and will report back the results. Since I'm
> doing all the work myself, the only way I could get "ripped off" is through
> unnecessary, but relatively inexpensive parts. Luckily, one of the guys
> that works at the junk yard where I got the [unnecessary] throttle body goes
> to my church, and he's going to let me exchange it for any other part(s) I
> need that costs the same. (They usually don't do exchanges...it pays to
> know the right people) ;-)
>
> Thanks again for all your help! :-)
>
> Jonathan
>
>
don't forget to resolder your main relay!

Re: What is the Problem - UPDATE
 

<snip>
> don't forget to resolder your main relay!
</snip>

Sorry, but my memory isn't the best. Why do I need to do this? Is there a
way to check the main relay to see if it's good or bad before taking it
apart and resoldering? Besides the fuel pump, what else does the main relay
control? I know there is a slight problem with my main relay because
sometimes when it's hot inside the car, it won't click when the check-engine
light goes off, and of course, the car won't start. I have to squeeze the
main relay and hold it to make it click so my car will fire up.

Thanx again! :-)

Jonathan

P.S. The last 2 sentences have been going on for awhile, and may not be
directly related to my current problem.

Re: What is the Problem - UPDATE
 

<snip>
> don't forget to resolder your main relay!
</snip>

Sorry, but my memory isn't the best. Why do I need to do this? Is there a
way to check the main relay to see if it's good or bad before taking it
apart and resoldering? Besides the fuel pump, what else does the main relay
control? I know there is a slight problem with my main relay because
sometimes when it's hot inside the car, it won't click when the check-engine
light goes off, and of course, the car won't start. I have to squeeze the
main relay and hold it to make it click so my car will fire up.

Thanx again! :-)

Jonathan

P.S. The last 2 sentences have been going on for awhile, and may not be
directly related to my current problem.

Re: What is the Problem - UPDATE
 

K-town wrote:
> <snip>
>
>>don't forget to resolder your main relay!
>
> </snip>
>
> Sorry, but my memory isn't the best. Why do I need to do this? Is there a
> way to check the main relay to see if it's good or bad before taking it
> apart and resoldering? Besides the fuel pump, what else does the main relay
> control? I know there is a slight problem with my main relay because
> sometimes when it's hot inside the car, it won't click when the check-engine
> light goes off, and of course, the car won't start. I have to squeeze the
> main relay and hold it to make it click so my car will fire up.
>
> Thanx again! :-)
>
> Jonathan
>
> P.S. The last 2 sentences have been going on for awhile, and may not be
> directly related to my current problem.
>

--------------------------

You've described a 'textbook case' of main relay failure. Resolder it
and you'll overcome a major headache. Meantime, don't lend your Honda to
somebody who is trying to go somewhere important. :-)

'Curly'