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Re: 2006 Sonata hits 10,000 miles - a few observations
Mike Marlow wrote:
> "Matt Whiting" <whiting@epix.net> wrote in message > news:7B1zg.100$Db4.7767@news1.epix.net... > > > >>I agree it doesn't affect the functionality of the filter that lost the >>gasket, but it may affect the functionality of the next filter if this >>isn't discovered. It is a failure and thus a quality lapse. I'm >>curious now to see how often this happens. If it happens again, I'll >>switch to NAPA or another filter brand whose quality I trust. But I >>have a whole case of Hyundai filters so that will be a while, lost >>gaskets or not! >> > > > Therein lies the difference in how we look at these things. I look at that > issue as two separate parts that can come apart with no problem in my mind. > You see them as a quality problem. Two different perspectives. Both solved > by the same technique of paying attention to the job at hand. Having worked in a Fortune 500 company for many moons and growing up with TQM, this is easily a quality problem. Quality is defined by most quality professionals as "meeting the requirements." I'm not aware of any requirement for an oil filter to leave its gasket behind on the engine. Very few parts are designed to come apart during or after use. Since I'm pretty sure this oil filter wasn't designed to leave its gasket on the engine, when it does so, that is a failure. Whether a failure of a part causes a greater failure of another part isn't relevant to whether the first part has experienced a failure or not. I agree that it is easy to mitigate the filter failure with some careful attention, but that doesn't change the face that the Hyundai filter failed. Matt |
Re: 2006 Sonata hits 10,000 miles - a few observations
Matt Whiting wrote:
> Mike Marlow wrote: > >> "Matt Whiting" <whiting@epix.net> wrote in message >> news:7B1zg.100$Db4.7767@news1.epix.net... >> >> >> >>> I agree it doesn't affect the functionality of the filter that lost the >>> gasket, but it may affect the functionality of the next filter if this >>> isn't discovered. It is a failure and thus a quality lapse. I'm >>> curious now to see how often this happens. If it happens again, I'll >>> switch to NAPA or another filter brand whose quality I trust. But I >>> have a whole case of Hyundai filters so that will be a while, lost >>> gaskets or not! >>> >> >> >> Therein lies the difference in how we look at these things. I look at >> that >> issue as two separate parts that can come apart with no problem in my >> mind. >> You see them as a quality problem. Two different perspectives. Both >> solved >> by the same technique of paying attention to the job at hand. > > > Having worked in a Fortune 500 company for many moons and growing up > with TQM, this is easily a quality problem. Quality is defined by most > quality professionals as "meeting the requirements." I'm not aware of > any requirement for an oil filter to leave its gasket behind on the > engine. Very few parts are designed to come apart during or after use. > > Since I'm pretty sure this oil filter wasn't designed to leave its > gasket on the engine, when it does so, that is a failure. > > Whether a failure of a part causes a greater failure of another part > isn't relevant to whether the first part has experienced a failure or > not. I agree that it is easy to mitigate the filter failure with some > careful attention, but that doesn't change the face that the Hyundai > filter failed. Considering that you're the only person who has reported this here or on any of the forums, it's probably an isolated incident. Did you remember to oil the seal before you installed the filter? |
Re: 2006 Sonata hits 10,000 miles - a few observations
Matt Whiting wrote:
> Mike Marlow wrote: > >> "Matt Whiting" <whiting@epix.net> wrote in message >> news:7B1zg.100$Db4.7767@news1.epix.net... >> >> >> >>> I agree it doesn't affect the functionality of the filter that lost the >>> gasket, but it may affect the functionality of the next filter if this >>> isn't discovered. It is a failure and thus a quality lapse. I'm >>> curious now to see how often this happens. If it happens again, I'll >>> switch to NAPA or another filter brand whose quality I trust. But I >>> have a whole case of Hyundai filters so that will be a while, lost >>> gaskets or not! >>> >> >> >> Therein lies the difference in how we look at these things. I look at >> that >> issue as two separate parts that can come apart with no problem in my >> mind. >> You see them as a quality problem. Two different perspectives. Both >> solved >> by the same technique of paying attention to the job at hand. > > > Having worked in a Fortune 500 company for many moons and growing up > with TQM, this is easily a quality problem. Quality is defined by most > quality professionals as "meeting the requirements." I'm not aware of > any requirement for an oil filter to leave its gasket behind on the > engine. Very few parts are designed to come apart during or after use. > > Since I'm pretty sure this oil filter wasn't designed to leave its > gasket on the engine, when it does so, that is a failure. > > Whether a failure of a part causes a greater failure of another part > isn't relevant to whether the first part has experienced a failure or > not. I agree that it is easy to mitigate the filter failure with some > careful attention, but that doesn't change the face that the Hyundai > filter failed. Considering that you're the only person who has reported this here or on any of the forums, it's probably an isolated incident. Did you remember to oil the seal before you installed the filter? |
Re: 2006 Sonata hits 10,000 miles - a few observations
Matt Whiting wrote:
> Mike Marlow wrote: > >> "Matt Whiting" <whiting@epix.net> wrote in message >> news:7B1zg.100$Db4.7767@news1.epix.net... >> >> >> >>> I agree it doesn't affect the functionality of the filter that lost the >>> gasket, but it may affect the functionality of the next filter if this >>> isn't discovered. It is a failure and thus a quality lapse. I'm >>> curious now to see how often this happens. If it happens again, I'll >>> switch to NAPA or another filter brand whose quality I trust. But I >>> have a whole case of Hyundai filters so that will be a while, lost >>> gaskets or not! >>> >> >> >> Therein lies the difference in how we look at these things. I look at >> that >> issue as two separate parts that can come apart with no problem in my >> mind. >> You see them as a quality problem. Two different perspectives. Both >> solved >> by the same technique of paying attention to the job at hand. > > > Having worked in a Fortune 500 company for many moons and growing up > with TQM, this is easily a quality problem. Quality is defined by most > quality professionals as "meeting the requirements." I'm not aware of > any requirement for an oil filter to leave its gasket behind on the > engine. Very few parts are designed to come apart during or after use. > > Since I'm pretty sure this oil filter wasn't designed to leave its > gasket on the engine, when it does so, that is a failure. > > Whether a failure of a part causes a greater failure of another part > isn't relevant to whether the first part has experienced a failure or > not. I agree that it is easy to mitigate the filter failure with some > careful attention, but that doesn't change the face that the Hyundai > filter failed. Considering that you're the only person who has reported this here or on any of the forums, it's probably an isolated incident. Did you remember to oil the seal before you installed the filter? |
Re: 2006 Sonata hits 10,000 miles - a few observations
On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 19:48:57 GMT, Matt Whiting <whiting@epix.net> wrote:
>Yes, I'm surprised also as I've had exceptional mileage in the past from >Michelins. I usually get 40K from my truck tires. I recently noticed my last set was 50% worn after 5K! I examined the tires closely, there were a bazillion micro-cuts. I figure it's from frequently traveling a certain road that was recently re-surfaced with small, sharp gravel. I'll be staying off of that road for a couple of years until it breaks in! :) -- Bob |
Re: 2006 Sonata hits 10,000 miles - a few observations
On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 19:48:57 GMT, Matt Whiting <whiting@epix.net> wrote:
>Yes, I'm surprised also as I've had exceptional mileage in the past from >Michelins. I usually get 40K from my truck tires. I recently noticed my last set was 50% worn after 5K! I examined the tires closely, there were a bazillion micro-cuts. I figure it's from frequently traveling a certain road that was recently re-surfaced with small, sharp gravel. I'll be staying off of that road for a couple of years until it breaks in! :) -- Bob |
Re: 2006 Sonata hits 10,000 miles - a few observations
On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 19:48:57 GMT, Matt Whiting <whiting@epix.net> wrote:
>Yes, I'm surprised also as I've had exceptional mileage in the past from >Michelins. I usually get 40K from my truck tires. I recently noticed my last set was 50% worn after 5K! I examined the tires closely, there were a bazillion micro-cuts. I figure it's from frequently traveling a certain road that was recently re-surfaced with small, sharp gravel. I'll be staying off of that road for a couple of years until it breaks in! :) -- Bob |
Re: 2006 Sonata hits 10,000 miles - a few observations
Brian Nystrom, on a thread about a gasket (o-ring) on a spin-on oil filter,
that got left behind on an engine, and caused problems when a 2nd oil filter and gasket was installed, asked: "Did you remember to oil the seal before you installed the filter?"...... You hit on it Brian. Over the course of years, I have had several of those rubber o-rings that have fallen off the brand new oil filter as I was taking them out of the boxes. I really do not know how well they are initially placed onto the filter (or how well they are supposed to be). I have just 'laid' them back in there and it seems to be fine. But in each case, I have put a film of oil on the o-ring before I put (spin) the filter into place. Every time, that has done the trick, and the o-ring and filter come off just fine and together. In fact, now that it has been mentioned here, I realize that this little trick must work extremely well, because although they have fallen off for me coming out of the box, I have never even had to think about the o-ring still being on the engine filter mount after they have been removed. Clearly some of the filter companies are thinking about making sure they come off though. Some of the better filters have the o-rings coated with PTFE (think Slick 50). But it could be that this is for the percentage of people who don't put a film of oil on their filter o-rings (there must be at least some who don't). In my world, I don't see it as needed. I do agree that doing the job right helps make sure that can't happen. When my filters are off, I am inspecting and cleaning the engine filter mounting base, wiping off oil, checking its condition, etc. If the o-ring stayed behind, I just can't believe that between seeing that it is not on the filter I just took off and seeing that it is on the base I am cleaning that I could ever miss that - it is just too obvious. So, in my world, this is not a manufacturing defect. It is simply a sloppy (and downright inexcusable) job by the person who changed the oil. In that sense, what the dealership did (the extended warranty) was probably appropriate. I will say that, when I was a teenager, I had my oil changed once by a garage. This was one of those old-style cartridge types. Along with the filter came an o-ring. But replacing it was a separate and much more tedious process, and I think most people just threw those away. But the owner of this garage surmised that the filter maker must want you to replace it or they wouldn't have included it in the package. So he always did. At the particualar time my oil was changed, one of his workers, a young man who went to my church, did the oil change. Sadly, he also added the new gasket without taking the old one out. I spotted the stream of oil in my driveway and even followed it a quarter mile down the road, and realized something was very wrong. I called the garage, filled the car with oil, got it back there and fixed, and all was well. The worker was fired. I wonder if the worker who did this to this man's car suffered the same fate, since this was much easier to do and see than what happened to my fellow church-mate?? Tom Wenndt |
Re: 2006 Sonata hits 10,000 miles - a few observations
Brian Nystrom, on a thread about a gasket (o-ring) on a spin-on oil filter,
that got left behind on an engine, and caused problems when a 2nd oil filter and gasket was installed, asked: "Did you remember to oil the seal before you installed the filter?"...... You hit on it Brian. Over the course of years, I have had several of those rubber o-rings that have fallen off the brand new oil filter as I was taking them out of the boxes. I really do not know how well they are initially placed onto the filter (or how well they are supposed to be). I have just 'laid' them back in there and it seems to be fine. But in each case, I have put a film of oil on the o-ring before I put (spin) the filter into place. Every time, that has done the trick, and the o-ring and filter come off just fine and together. In fact, now that it has been mentioned here, I realize that this little trick must work extremely well, because although they have fallen off for me coming out of the box, I have never even had to think about the o-ring still being on the engine filter mount after they have been removed. Clearly some of the filter companies are thinking about making sure they come off though. Some of the better filters have the o-rings coated with PTFE (think Slick 50). But it could be that this is for the percentage of people who don't put a film of oil on their filter o-rings (there must be at least some who don't). In my world, I don't see it as needed. I do agree that doing the job right helps make sure that can't happen. When my filters are off, I am inspecting and cleaning the engine filter mounting base, wiping off oil, checking its condition, etc. If the o-ring stayed behind, I just can't believe that between seeing that it is not on the filter I just took off and seeing that it is on the base I am cleaning that I could ever miss that - it is just too obvious. So, in my world, this is not a manufacturing defect. It is simply a sloppy (and downright inexcusable) job by the person who changed the oil. In that sense, what the dealership did (the extended warranty) was probably appropriate. I will say that, when I was a teenager, I had my oil changed once by a garage. This was one of those old-style cartridge types. Along with the filter came an o-ring. But replacing it was a separate and much more tedious process, and I think most people just threw those away. But the owner of this garage surmised that the filter maker must want you to replace it or they wouldn't have included it in the package. So he always did. At the particualar time my oil was changed, one of his workers, a young man who went to my church, did the oil change. Sadly, he also added the new gasket without taking the old one out. I spotted the stream of oil in my driveway and even followed it a quarter mile down the road, and realized something was very wrong. I called the garage, filled the car with oil, got it back there and fixed, and all was well. The worker was fired. I wonder if the worker who did this to this man's car suffered the same fate, since this was much easier to do and see than what happened to my fellow church-mate?? Tom Wenndt |
Re: 2006 Sonata hits 10,000 miles - a few observations
Brian Nystrom, on a thread about a gasket (o-ring) on a spin-on oil filter,
that got left behind on an engine, and caused problems when a 2nd oil filter and gasket was installed, asked: "Did you remember to oil the seal before you installed the filter?"...... You hit on it Brian. Over the course of years, I have had several of those rubber o-rings that have fallen off the brand new oil filter as I was taking them out of the boxes. I really do not know how well they are initially placed onto the filter (or how well they are supposed to be). I have just 'laid' them back in there and it seems to be fine. But in each case, I have put a film of oil on the o-ring before I put (spin) the filter into place. Every time, that has done the trick, and the o-ring and filter come off just fine and together. In fact, now that it has been mentioned here, I realize that this little trick must work extremely well, because although they have fallen off for me coming out of the box, I have never even had to think about the o-ring still being on the engine filter mount after they have been removed. Clearly some of the filter companies are thinking about making sure they come off though. Some of the better filters have the o-rings coated with PTFE (think Slick 50). But it could be that this is for the percentage of people who don't put a film of oil on their filter o-rings (there must be at least some who don't). In my world, I don't see it as needed. I do agree that doing the job right helps make sure that can't happen. When my filters are off, I am inspecting and cleaning the engine filter mounting base, wiping off oil, checking its condition, etc. If the o-ring stayed behind, I just can't believe that between seeing that it is not on the filter I just took off and seeing that it is on the base I am cleaning that I could ever miss that - it is just too obvious. So, in my world, this is not a manufacturing defect. It is simply a sloppy (and downright inexcusable) job by the person who changed the oil. In that sense, what the dealership did (the extended warranty) was probably appropriate. I will say that, when I was a teenager, I had my oil changed once by a garage. This was one of those old-style cartridge types. Along with the filter came an o-ring. But replacing it was a separate and much more tedious process, and I think most people just threw those away. But the owner of this garage surmised that the filter maker must want you to replace it or they wouldn't have included it in the package. So he always did. At the particualar time my oil was changed, one of his workers, a young man who went to my church, did the oil change. Sadly, he also added the new gasket without taking the old one out. I spotted the stream of oil in my driveway and even followed it a quarter mile down the road, and realized something was very wrong. I called the garage, filled the car with oil, got it back there and fixed, and all was well. The worker was fired. I wonder if the worker who did this to this man's car suffered the same fate, since this was much easier to do and see than what happened to my fellow church-mate?? Tom Wenndt |
Re: 2006 Sonata hits 10,000 miles - a few observations
It's been my experience that the original factory filter leaves its gasket
with a much higher frequencey than any installed later. I suspect it has something to do with surface preparation and how tightly the filter is installed (originals are rather tight). You'll notice your new oil filters have a clear plastic covering over one end. More freqently, I encounter the gasket sticking to the plastic, so when you take it off, make sure the gasket is still positioned properly before installing the filter on the car. |
Re: 2006 Sonata hits 10,000 miles - a few observations
It's been my experience that the original factory filter leaves its gasket
with a much higher frequencey than any installed later. I suspect it has something to do with surface preparation and how tightly the filter is installed (originals are rather tight). You'll notice your new oil filters have a clear plastic covering over one end. More freqently, I encounter the gasket sticking to the plastic, so when you take it off, make sure the gasket is still positioned properly before installing the filter on the car. |
Re: 2006 Sonata hits 10,000 miles - a few observations
It's been my experience that the original factory filter leaves its gasket
with a much higher frequencey than any installed later. I suspect it has something to do with surface preparation and how tightly the filter is installed (originals are rather tight). You'll notice your new oil filters have a clear plastic covering over one end. More freqently, I encounter the gasket sticking to the plastic, so when you take it off, make sure the gasket is still positioned properly before installing the filter on the car. |
Re: 2006 Sonata hits 10,000 miles - a few observations
Mr. Hyundaitech, this just begs a question.
It was through the owner's (or service) manual of car after car I have owned that I learned how badly oil filters and oil drain plugs were being overtightened. If the manufacturers set the tightening specs, why do they not adhere to them? Indeed, every new vehicle I have ever owned has had both tightened plug and filter even tighter then they are left after a fast oil change - and that's saying something. In my world, either the specs mean something or they don't. What am I missing here? Tom Wenndt "hyundaitech" <notpublic@not.public.com> wrote in message news:fecd3298f3dfb59f00da6014d607d127@localhost.ta lkaboutautos.com... > It's been my experience that the original factory filter leaves its gasket > with a much higher frequencey than any installed later. I suspect it has > something to do with surface preparation and how tightly the filter is > installed (originals are rather tight). > > You'll notice your new oil filters have a clear plastic covering over one > end. More freqently, I encounter the gasket sticking to the plastic, so > when you take it off, make sure the gasket is still positioned properly > before installing the filter on the car. > |
Re: 2006 Sonata hits 10,000 miles - a few observations
Mr. Hyundaitech, this just begs a question.
It was through the owner's (or service) manual of car after car I have owned that I learned how badly oil filters and oil drain plugs were being overtightened. If the manufacturers set the tightening specs, why do they not adhere to them? Indeed, every new vehicle I have ever owned has had both tightened plug and filter even tighter then they are left after a fast oil change - and that's saying something. In my world, either the specs mean something or they don't. What am I missing here? Tom Wenndt "hyundaitech" <notpublic@not.public.com> wrote in message news:fecd3298f3dfb59f00da6014d607d127@localhost.ta lkaboutautos.com... > It's been my experience that the original factory filter leaves its gasket > with a much higher frequencey than any installed later. I suspect it has > something to do with surface preparation and how tightly the filter is > installed (originals are rather tight). > > You'll notice your new oil filters have a clear plastic covering over one > end. More freqently, I encounter the gasket sticking to the plastic, so > when you take it off, make sure the gasket is still positioned properly > before installing the filter on the car. > |
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