IlBeBauck@gmail.com

I was on my way to Florida and had to swing into a Hyundai Dealer in
Birmington, Al. because my 2002 SantaFe died all of a sudden on the
Interstate ; fortunately, it re-started after a few minutes but ran
rough. The Service Dept. read the Engine Code and it indicated the
Mass Airflow Sensor was defective ; the Service Advisor said it was
shorted and the installation would run a few hundred dollars and that
they had it in stock. I was skeptical , so i declined the repair and
paid their $89 diagnosis fee . When i got some distance from the
Dealership, i pulled the intake hose from the MAF Sensor
housing ...and low and behold ... i immediately found the problem : A
small piece of debris had lodged itself on the inlet screen . I
removed that and the engine ran normal again and has not been a
problem since. Obviously, the Service Dept. was more interested in
making profit on parts changing than anything else.

Im sure its a scenario thats repeated many thousands of times each day
in America .

Mike Edwards

I don't really believe that Service Depts are deliberately dishonest. The
computer tells them the most likely cause of the problem. For the sake of
saving time and getting to as many cars a day as possible they'll do what
the computer suggests. However, in your case, what you don't know is if you
had OK'd the repair and in the process of changing the sensor they
discovered the same blockage would they have changed their diagnosis and
only charged you the labor for removing the debris or gone ahead and
replaced the part.

Voyager

IlBeBauck@gmail.com wrote:
> I was on my way to Florida and had to swing into a Hyundai Dealer in
> Birmington, Al. because my 2002 SantaFe died all of a sudden on the
> Interstate ; fortunately, it re-started after a few minutes but ran
> rough. The Service Dept. read the Engine Code and it indicated the
> Mass Airflow Sensor was defective ; the Service Advisor said it was
> shorted and the installation would run a few hundred dollars and that
> they had it in stock. I was skeptical , so i declined the repair and
> paid their $89 diagnosis fee . When i got some distance from the
> Dealership, i pulled the intake hose from the MAF Sensor
> housing ...and low and behold ... i immediately found the problem : A
> small piece of debris had lodged itself on the inlet screen . I
> removed that and the engine ran normal again and has not been a
> problem since. Obviously, the Service Dept. was more interested in
> making profit on parts changing than anything else.
>
> Im sure its a scenario thats repeated many thousands of times each day
> in America .

You have no way to know that. They may simply took what the scan tool
said as the initial indication and may well have found the debris had
you authorized the repair and they then pulled the hose. I'm not too
surprised that they wouldn't pull all hoses and electrical connectors
and check everything else if you had just dropped in with no appointment
and they were simply trying to get you back on your way quickly.

Ed Pawlowski

IlBeBauck@gmail.com wrote:
>> When i got some distance from the
>> Dealership, i pulled the intake hose from the MAF Sensor
>> housing ...and low and behold ... i immediately found the problem : A
>> small piece of debris had lodged itself on the inlet screen . I
>> removed that and the engine ran normal again and has not been a
>> problem since. Obviously, the Service Dept. was more interested in
>> making profit on parts changing than anything else.
>>
>> Im sure its a scenario thats repeated many thousands of times each day
>> in America .

Yes and no. They read a computer that said the sensor was no operating
properly. They may or may not have found the debris and may or may not have
changed the sensor.

I've run into similar situations at assorted dealers and independent shops
over the years. Some are honest and would do the exact required service,
others will replace parts until things work again. Some have poor diagnostic
ability, some are incredibly sharp.

A little story. My brother, an engineer, could have been one of the top
auto machanics in the world if he chose it as a profession instead of a
hobby. One day a co-worker asked my brother to bring him back to work after
dropping off his car for repair. He said the generator (remember them?) and
voltage regulator had to be replaced. My brother said "no, one or the
other, rarely both are bad, let me check it first." They went out to the
parking lot, popped the hood and my brother tightened the fan belt. Case
closed.

Was the shop dishonest? Dumb? Hard to say, maybe both.

I have other stories and I'm sure others here do also. IMO, service
departments do try to sell you unneeded services, transmission flushes,
polish the wheel studs or nitrogen blast the muffler brackets, but most do
what they say they do. Some independents will scam you, others are great
money savers on good, reliable, honest, service.

IlBeBauck@gmail.com

On May 22, 6:45 pm, "Mike Edwards" <m.w.edwa...@att.net> wrote:
> I don't really believe that Service Depts are deliberately dishonest. The
> computer tells them the most likely cause of the problem. For the sakeof
> saving time and getting to as many cars a day as possible they'll do what
> the computer suggests. However, in your case, what you don't know is if you
> had OK'd the repair and in the process of changing the sensor they
> discovered the same blockage would they have changed their diagnosis and
> only charged you the labor for removing the debris or gone ahead and
> replaced the part.

I think for $89 , they should have pulled the hose off of the MAF
sensor housing as well as reading a simple code. I just think that
they didnt have much integrity ; as for honesty...I cant say for sure.

hyundaitech

On May 22, 10:42 pm, "IlBeBa...@gmail.com" <IlBeBa...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> I think for $89 , they should have pulled the hose off of the MAF
> sensor housing as well as reading a simple code. I just think that
> they didnt have much integrity ; as for honesty...I cant say for sure

Should have, yes. Deliberately selling you something you didn't
need? Probably not. 2.4 and 3.5L air flow sensors are among high
frequency failures. Not as much on 2.7.

Here's the root problem to all this-- mechanics' pay methods. In an
effort to keep mechanics working quickly, nearly all mechanics are
paid on some sort of commision basis. In most dealers, it's based on
billable labor hours. This causes the mechanic to attempt to diagnose
and repair the problem as quickly as possible, often taking shortcuts
in the process. In your case, the shortcut occurred by not physically
inspecting the air flow sensor.

Voyager

IlBeBauck@gmail.com wrote:
> On May 22, 6:45 pm, "Mike Edwards" <m.w.edwa...@att.net> wrote:
>> I don't really believe that Service Depts are deliberately dishonest. The
>> computer tells them the most likely cause of the problem. For the sake of
>> saving time and getting to as many cars a day as possible they'll do what
>> the computer suggests. However, in your case, what you don't know is if you
>> had OK'd the repair and in the process of changing the sensor they
>> discovered the same blockage would they have changed their diagnosis and
>> only charged you the labor for removing the debris or gone ahead and
>> replaced the part.
>
> I think for $89 , they should have pulled the hose off of the MAF
> sensor housing as well as reading a simple code. I just think that
> they didnt have much integrity ; as for honesty...I cant say for sure.

Methinks you doth protest too much with too little information.

Speaking of integrity: how much do you think someone has who posts an
impugning message in public based on almost no data? Maybe you should
pull Webster's off the shelf and look up "integrity."

Matt

Ken

On May 23, 5:56 am, Voyager <m.whit...@computer.org> wrote:
> IlBeBa...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On May 22, 6:45 pm, "Mike Edwards" <m.w.edwa...@att.net> wrote:
> >> I don't really believe that Service Depts are deliberately dishonest. The
> >> computer tells them the most likely cause of the problem. For the sake of
> >> saving time and getting to as many cars a day as possible they'll do what
> >> the computer suggests. However, in your case, what you don't know is if you
> >> had OK'd the repair and in the process of changing the sensor they
> >> discovered the same blockage would they have changed their diagnosis and
> >> only charged you the labor for removing the debris or gone ahead and
> >> replaced the part.
>
> > I think for $89 , they should have pulled the hose off of the MAF
> > sensor housing as well as reading a simple code. I just think that
> > they didnt have much integrity ; as for honesty...I cant say for sure.
>
> Methinks you doth protest too much with too little information.
>
> Speaking of integrity: how much do you think someone has who posts an
> impugning message in public based on almost no data? Maybe you should
> pull Webster's off the shelf and look up "integrity."
>
> Matt

If you knew anything about Dave Brown's history on the interent (with
him using over 2 dozen different nics so far) you'd know he has
ABSOLUTELY no integrity, little common sense, mental stablilty,
rational thought, honesty, or much of anything else to offer up,
other than having a big mouth (and NEVER being wrong)

nothermark

On Fri, 22 May 2009 07:41:07 -0700 (PDT), "IlBeBauck@gmail.com"
<IlBeBauck@gmail.com> wrote:

>I was on my way to Florida and had to swing into a Hyundai Dealer in
>Birmington, Al. because my 2002 SantaFe died all of a sudden on the
>Interstate ; fortunately, it re-started after a few minutes but ran
>rough. The Service Dept. read the Engine Code and it indicated the
>Mass Airflow Sensor was defective ; the Service Advisor said it was
>shorted and the installation would run a few hundred dollars and that
>they had it in stock. I was skeptical , so i declined the repair and
>paid their $89 diagnosis fee . When i got some distance from the
>Dealership, i pulled the intake hose from the MAF Sensor
>housing ...and low and behold ... i immediately found the problem : A
>small piece of debris had lodged itself on the inlet screen . I
>removed that and the engine ran normal again and has not been a
>problem since. Obviously, the Service Dept. was more interested in
>making profit on parts changing than anything else.
>
>Im sure its a scenario thats repeated many thousands of times each day
>in America .

I assume the same thing you do. OTOH, all the tech did is read the
code and report it. Nobody looked at the sensor like you did. it
would be nice to assume that they would notice the debris when they
took it apart. Your real problem with the diagnosis is the high
reliance on instrumentation and a service writer that doesn't know a
short from an open circuit but tosses terms around.

Steven Fisher

In article
<44bc8f0d-48a4-4497-9323-2b4e66d14ed0@l12g2000yqo.googlegroups.com>,
"IlBeBauck@gmail.com" <IlBeBauck@gmail.com> wrote:

> I think for $89 , they should have pulled the hose off of the MAF
> sensor housing as well as reading a simple code. I just think that
> they didnt have much integrity ; as for honesty...I cant say for sure.

Sounds like they gave a quick analysis and a worst-case estimate on it.

If you'd quietly put everything back, taken it in again and got them to
perform the test, and they'd charged for a new sensor I think you'd have
a stronger case for them being dishonest. But that would have been silly.

Personally, I'm always happy when I pay less than the initial estimate
on a repair.


Steve

Steven Fisher

In article <sdfisher-33181F.22551923052009@shawnews.vc.shawcable.net>,
Steven Fisher <sdfisher@spamcop.net> wrote:

> If you'd quietly put everything back, taken it in again and got them to
> perform the test, and they'd charged for a new sensor I think you'd have
> a stronger case for them being dishonest. But that would have been silly.

I meant to say "perform the repair."


Steve

Gothumbs@webtv.net

I don't know if you should question the integrity of the dealership,
unless you had some sort of proof that they were trying to cheat you. I
would question the 'integrity' of your intake system ducting. The MAF
should be downstream of the air filter. No dirt or debris should be
able to get to the MAF under normal conditions.

Steve in AZ

Sorry all; a little late getting my input on this...(Hank- ssshhhsss!)

Anyway, I agree that most dealerships are quick to sell services. In an
earlier post, someone in the group inquired about the 30k mile service and
HT promptly corrected the "discrepancy".
My dealer wants to do the following at 30k miles:

1. Tranny Flush
2. Coolant Flush
3. Serpentine Belt
4. Cabin Air Filter
5. Air filter and LOF

Now, understand that I am in good with my service department and they know
that I was a mechanic before career change to IT Management. When confronted
about what the manual for my 08 Sonata SE states, they didn't balk, rather
told me that would be for "normal" environments. I'm in AZ and already went
down the KN filter route...

Nonetheless, I told them thanks, but no thanks. No where in my manual does
it differentiate between severe and normal environments with the exception
of oil changes, which get done at 3k religiously (and they use Castrol!)

So in short, consumers MUST be educated and realize that as the quality of
vehicles increase, more and more of the shop's profit will need to come from
services rather than warranty work.

By the way- my 08 has inferior front window rails and the windows squeak, so
it's going back tomorrow for new ones- upgraded from HMC...

Steve in AZ


<IlBeBauck@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:488c6b90-3f8e-4cf0-9253-c1160ad3d993@n4g2000vba.googlegroups.com...
>I was on my way to Florida and had to swing into a Hyundai Dealer in
> Birmington, Al. because my 2002 SantaFe died all of a sudden on the
> Interstate ; fortunately, it re-started after a few minutes but ran
> rough. The Service Dept. read the Engine Code and it indicated the
> Mass Airflow Sensor was defective ; the Service Advisor said it was
> shorted and the installation would run a few hundred dollars and that
> they had it in stock. I was skeptical , so i declined the repair and
> paid their $89 diagnosis fee . When i got some distance from the
> Dealership, i pulled the intake hose from the MAF Sensor
> housing ...and low and behold ... i immediately found the problem : A
> small piece of debris had lodged itself on the inlet screen . I
> removed that and the engine ran normal again and has not been a
> problem since. Obviously, the Service Dept. was more interested in
> making profit on parts changing than anything else.
>
> Im sure its a scenario thats repeated many thousands of times each day
> in America .

Slim

On 2009-05-22 10:41:07 -0400, "IlBeBauck@gmail.com" <IlBeBauck@gmail.com> said:

> I was on my way to Florida and had to swing into a Hyundai Dealer in
> Birmington, Al. because my 2002 SantaFe died all of a sudden on the
> Interstate ; fortunately, it re-started after a few minutes but ran
> rough. The Service Dept. read the Engine Code and it indicated the
> Mass Airflow Sensor was defective ; the Service Advisor said it was
> shorted and the installation would run a few hundred dollars and that
> they had it in stock. I was skeptical , so i declined the repair and
> paid their $89 diagnosis fee . When i got some distance from the
> Dealership, i pulled the intake hose from the MAF Sensor
> housing ...and low and behold ... i immediately found the problem : A
> small piece of debris had lodged itself on the inlet screen . I
> removed that and the engine ran normal again and has not been a
> problem since. Obviously, the Service Dept. was more interested in
> making profit on parts changing than anything else.
>
> Im sure its a scenario thats repeated many thousands of times each day
> in America .

THE STEALER is exposed again!


--
"Naturally the common people don't want war: Neither in Russia, nor in
England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after
all, IT IS THE LEADERS of the country who determine the policy and it
is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a
democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist
dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to
the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is TELL
THEM THEY ARE BEING ATTACKED, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of
patriotism and exposing the country to danger. IT WORKS THE SAME IN ANY
COUNTRY."

--Goering at the Nuremberg Trials

Slim

On 2009-05-22 21:40:03 -0400, Voyager <m.whiting@computer.org> said:

> IlBeBauck@gmail.com wrote:
>> I was on my way to Florida and had to swing into a Hyundai Dealer in
>> Birmington, Al. because my 2002 SantaFe died all of a sudden on the
>> Interstate ; fortunately, it re-started after a few minutes but ran
>> rough. The Service Dept. read the Engine Code and it indicated the
>> Mass Airflow Sensor was defective ; the Service Advisor said it was
>> shorted and the installation would run a few hundred dollars and that
>> they had it in stock. I was skeptical , so i declined the repair and
>> paid their $89 diagnosis fee . When i got some distance from the
>> Dealership, i pulled the intake hose from the MAF Sensor
>> housing ...and low and behold ... i immediately found the problem : A
>> small piece of debris had lodged itself on the inlet screen . I
>> removed that and the engine ran normal again and has not been a
>> problem since. Obviously, the Service Dept. was more interested in
>> making profit on parts changing than anything else.
>>
>> Im sure its a scenario thats repeated many thousands of times each day
>> in America .
>
> You have no way to know that. They may simply took what the scan tool
> said as the initial indication and may well have found the debris had
> you authorized the repair and they then pulled the hose. I'm not too
> surprised that they wouldn't pull all hoses and electrical connectors
> and check everything else if you had just dropped in with no appointment
> and they were simply trying to get you back on your way quickly.

Bullshit.

They were trying to separate him from his money as quickly as possible.

--
"Naturally the common people don't want war: Neither in Russia, nor in
England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after
all, IT IS THE LEADERS of the country who determine the policy and it
is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a
democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist
dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to
the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is TELL
THEM THEY ARE BEING ATTACKED, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of
patriotism and exposing the country to danger. IT WORKS THE SAME IN ANY
COUNTRY."

--Goering at the Nuremberg Trials