Need info on rack & pinion
 

2004 Hyundai XG350, 65K miles. I already laid out the big bucks for the 60K
mile service which I was told included some sort of hugely expensive timing
belt or timing chain replacement. That was several months ago. Took the
car to the dealer for the state mandated annual safety inspection required
to get new license plate stickers. The service dept would not pass the
vehicle, saying that "The vehicle needs a new sterring rack & pinion as it
is making a banging noise and the boots are leaking. Estimate is $744 plus
tax." They said the car was a danger to drive. We told them we had been
thinking of getting another car anyway, and they lent us a 2011 Sonata for
the night as a test drive. We ended up bringing it back and telling them we
would have to think on it. The more we thought, the more we were inclined
to keep the XG rather than rush into something.

Needing to get the sticker, we drove across the street to the Bridgestone
independent dealer, did not give them any hints, and the car passed without
issue. Hmmm.

We've been dealing with the dealer since 2004, and our other vehicle is a
2008 Veracruz. They've always been extremely courteous and accomodating,
and we've been very pleased. I was all set to schedule the car to have the
work done, but we decided to get a second opinion. We contacted an
independent garage which was recommended to us by several people. They are
known for doing a lot of work on foreign brands and we got several strong
recommendations. I called the guy to set up an appointment, explained what
I was told, and he sounded incredulous that the steering could have gone bad
at only 65K miles. We took it there yesterday, they put it on the rack, and
said there was nothing wrong with the rack and pinion steering, but that the
upper control arm was extremely loose and the car should not have passed the
inspection on that account. All it took was a little torque application to
tighten down the control arm, and we were safely (?) on our way, no charge.

So I called the service manager at the Hyundai dealership today and
explained to him what happened. I told him I did not know what to think,
but I was inclined not to do business there again and have a discussion with
the general manager to explain why. But I wanted to see what he thought
first, since I did have a good history with them. The service manager said
the technician who worked on his car was a trusted, long-time employee, and
if he said it was bad, it was bad. But since I felt as I did, he suggested
I bring the car in next week for us to look at together.

Now I'm a skilled computer guy, but with cars, not so much. What I would
like to know is, when I'm standing there under the car with this guy, what
should I look for? And how would I know if what he is telling me is true?
I recall seeing some old reports on 20/20 where a mechanic could giggle this
and flex that and convince you that you had a major problem with something.
Any hints on how I would know if the steering is really worn out to the
point of being dangerous to drive?

FWIW, we had been complaining since well before the end of the 60K mile
bumper-to-bumper warranty that the car would periodically make terrible
creaking sounds, but for whatever reason those finally dissapated. More
recently my wife, who is the promary driver of the car, has been complaining
of banging noises which I maybe heard once, but those too had become less
frequent. Heck, they might have been the control arm.

Anyway, thanks for reading this far, and if you have some hints for me, I
would appreciate it.

Re: Need info on rack & pinion
 

"Wayne Maruna" <wamaruna@suddenlink.net> wrote
> The service dept would not pass the vehicle, saying that "The vehicle
> needs a new sterring rack & pinion as it is making a banging noise and the
> boots are leaking. Estimate is $744 plus tax." They said the car was a
> danger to drive.

> We've been dealing with the dealer since 2004, and our other vehicle is a
> 2008 Veracruz. They've always been extremely courteous and accomodating,
> and we've been very pleased. I was all set to schedule the car to have
> the work done, but we decided to get a second opinion. We contacted an
> independent garage which was recommended to us by several people. They
> are known for doing a lot of work on foreign brands and we got several
> strong recommendations. I called the guy to set up an appointment,
> explained what I was told, and he sounded incredulous that the steering
> could have gone bad at only 65K miles. We took it there yesterday, they
> put it on the rack, and said there was nothing wrong with the rack and
> pinion steering, but that the upper control arm was extremely loose and
> the car should not have passed the inspection on that account. All it
> took was a little torque application to tighten down the control arm, and
> we were safely (?) on our way, no charge.
>
> So I called the service manager at the Hyundai dealership today and
> explained to him what happened. I told him I did not know what to think,
> but I was inclined not to do business there again and have a discussion
> with the general manager to explain why.

First, let me state I'm a bit cynical and I tend not to trust very many
dealers or independent shops. Over the years I've seen too many people
taken advantage of because of unscrupulous or incompetent mechanics. Too
many stories to go into here.

It is possible, but unlikely that the rack and pinion have to be replaced at
65,000 miles. It is also possible that the technician in question gets a
bonus for work done. Keep in mind also that the Bridgestone guy does brakes
and shocks all day long but is not interested in doing a more involved job
and was happy to make a few bucks for the sticker.

Have them show you what is the problem, but alos have them show you the
specification that says how much play is allowed or whatever they cite as
the reason it is defective. Opinions are just that, specifications from the
servie manual is what matters to me.

OK, one quick story. Guy says he it taking his car to a shop for a new
alternator and voltage regulator as both were diagnosed bad. Another guys
says "BS, they don't both go bad at the same time" and goes to check the
car. He tightens the belt and car now charges properly. Much money saved.

Re: Need info on rack & pinion
 

On 2/24/2010 10:59 PM, Wayne Maruna wrote:
> 2004 Hyundai XG350, 65K miles. I already laid out the big bucks for the 60K
> mile service which I was told included some sort of hugely expensive timing
> belt or timing chain replacement. That was several months ago. Took the
> car to the dealer for the state mandated annual safety inspection required
> to get new license plate stickers. The service dept would not pass the
> vehicle, saying that "The vehicle needs a new sterring rack& pinion as it
> is making a banging noise and the boots are leaking. Estimate is $744 plus
> tax." They said the car was a danger to drive. We told them we had been
> thinking of getting another car anyway, and they lent us a 2011 Sonata for
> the night as a test drive. We ended up bringing it back and telling them we
> would have to think on it. The more we thought, the more we were inclined
> to keep the XG rather than rush into something.

If the boots are leaking you should be able to see some evidence of that
(such as what might look like an oil stain or something) either below or
on the bottom of the boot(s). As far as the steering rack & pinion -
have you noticed the"banging noise" while turning or going straight,
also do you hear anything when you turn the wheel or does it feel like
it is binding or jerking?

Finally, look for someone who specializes in front end work and get
their opinion as well.

Re: Need info on rack & pinion
 

Ed Pawlowski wrote:

> OK, one quick story. Guy says he it taking his car to a shop for a new
> alternator and voltage regulator as both were diagnosed bad. Another
> guys says "BS, they don't both go bad at the same time" and goes to
> check the car. He tightens the belt and car now charges properly. Much
> money saved.

I agree that it is unlikely that both go bad at the same time, but that
doesn't mean that both won't have to be replaced at the same time. Many
new alternators have an integral voltage regulator and normal procedure
is to replace the entire unit when either goes bad. I suspect the labor
cost to open up the alternator to replace the internal regulator would
be greater than the cost of a replacement alternator.

However, a loose belt is not a good reason to replace an alternator! :-)

Matt

Re: Need info on rack & pinion
 

"Voyager" <m.whiting@computer.org> wrote in message
news:kfDhn.9511$AF1.6650@newsfe12.iad...
> Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>
>> OK, one quick story. Guy says he it taking his car to a shop for a new
>> alternator and voltage regulator as both were diagnosed bad. Another
>> guys says "BS, they don't both go bad at the same time" and goes to check
>> the car. He tightens the belt and car now charges properly. Much money
>> saved.
>
> I agree that it is unlikely that both go bad at the same time, but that
> doesn't mean that both won't have to be replaced at the same time. Many
> new alternators have an integral voltage regulator and normal procedure is
> to replace the entire unit when either goes bad. I suspect the labor cost
> to open up the alternator to replace the internal regulator would be
> greater than the cost of a replacement alternator.
>
> However, a loose belt is not a good reason to replace an alternator! :-)
>
> Matt

This was an older (1970's) car with separate pieces. Could have been either
lack of integrity or lack of knowledge.

Had a similar situation when I took my Mercedes to the dealer because the
electric cooling fan did not work. They replaced both the fan and the
thermostat. Of course, I questioned it and asked to see the parts to test
them. "Sorry sir, they seem to have been discarded but we'll adjust the
bill. "

Same dealer different problem. Cruise control would just stop working.
They replaced a $400 circuit board that looked like a turn signal flasher.
I did not think that was the problem but he insisted. Paid and left and the
problem re-occurred minutes later so I turned around and went back. I took
the bill and flipped it over and drew the electrical schematic of the cruise
control system on the back of the paper. I showed him why he was wrong and
what the problem likely was. They fixed a $25 switch and I was on my way
with a credit.

Another lesson is never buy a Mercedes unless you are filthy rich or the
company you work for takes care of maintenance. When I changed jobs, first
thing I did was dump that 300D.

There are some fantastic mechanics out there, but there are many no so good.
If you do find a good one, stick with him and smile when you pay the fairly
priced bill.

Re: Need info on rack & pinion
 

"Ed Pawlowski" <esp@snetnospam.net> wrote in message
news:ipGdnRlqJfAqyhvWnZ2dnUVZ_gWdnZ2d@giganews.com ...
>
>
> "Wayne Maruna" <wamaruna@suddenlink.net> wrote
>> The service dept would not pass the vehicle, saying that "The vehicle
>> needs a new sterring rack & pinion as it is making a banging noise and
>> the boots are leaking. Estimate is $744 plus tax." They said the car
>> was a danger to drive.
>
>> We've been dealing with the dealer since 2004, and our other vehicle is a
>> 2008 Veracruz. They've always been extremely courteous and accomodating,
>> and we've been very pleased. I was all set to schedule the car to have
>> the work done, but we decided to get a second opinion. We contacted an
>> independent garage which was recommended to us by several people. They
>> are known for doing a lot of work on foreign brands and we got several
>> strong recommendations. I called the guy to set up an appointment,
>> explained what I was told, and he sounded incredulous that the steering
>> could have gone bad at only 65K miles. We took it there yesterday, they
>> put it on the rack, and said there was nothing wrong with the rack and
>> pinion steering, but that the upper control arm was extremely loose and
>> the car should not have passed the inspection on that account. All it
>> took was a little torque application to tighten down the control arm, and
>> we were safely (?) on our way, no charge.
>>
>> So I called the service manager at the Hyundai dealership today and
>> explained to him what happened. I told him I did not know what to think,
>> but I was inclined not to do business there again and have a discussion
>> with the general manager to explain why.
>
> First, let me state I'm a bit cynical and I tend not to trust very many
> dealers or independent shops. Over the years I've seen too many people
> taken advantage of because of unscrupulous or incompetent mechanics. Too
> many stories to go into here.
>
> It is possible, but unlikely that the rack and pinion have to be replaced
> at 65,000 miles. It is also possible that the technician in question gets
> a bonus for work done. Keep in mind also that the Bridgestone guy does
> brakes and shocks all day long but is not interested in doing a more
> involved job and was happy to make a few bucks for the sticker.
>
> Have them show you what is the problem, but alos have them show you the
> specification that says how much play is allowed or whatever they cite as
> the reason it is defective. Opinions are just that, specifications from
> the servie manual is what matters to me.

OK, follow-up. I took the car back to the dealer and they put it on the
rack. Technician showed us where he thought the concerns lay. This time,
he said that there was only a hair bit of movement. Though he said any
movement was not good, this seemed to become a minor issue. The main
concern in their mind was the presence (which they said was there but I
could not see clear evidence, compounded by the fact that it was a drizzly
day) of fluid which they said was leaking from the boots, though 'the boots
were just dust covers'. The said the seals were leaking, and the danger was
that under pressure the seals could just blow and we would lose steering.
They said the seals could not be replaced, that the whole rack was once
sealed (or in this case, not so sealed) unit. It was an all or nothing
replacement.

True or not true? To me and my limited knowledge I've been able to glean
from the web about R&P steering, it seemed like if it was serious, we would
be losing power steering fluid on a regular basis, and there might be signs
in the steering experience. They seemed to indicate my wife could lose the
ability to steer altogether, and it could happen suddenly rather than
present warning signs once could feel over time.

To me, this sounds like either excess caution or an attempt to drum up a
$744 service bill.

Re: Need info on rack & pinion
 

"Wayne Maruna" <wamaruna@suddenlink.net> wrote
> To me, this sounds like either excess caution or an attempt to drum up a
> $744 service bill.
>

Congratulations. You have won a weekend trip for two including two night as
a nice hotel and three meals a day. The value of the trip is $744. We hope
you enjoy the weekend away. .