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Re: Red Hot Exhaust Manifold
I'm stumped. On other cars (not Hyundai), I've seen red-hot
catalytic converters when there's a lot of unburned gas due to bad spark plugs or wires. In this case, you'd notice a rough idle most of the time. It's also possible that the engine is running too rich (or as others have suggested, too lean) at highway speeds due to a leaky or clogged carb. You might be able to tell which way it's running by examining the spark plugs. If it's too rich one or more will be black and sooty. If too lean, they'll be really, really clean & white. Normally, they have slight tan deposits on the ceramic part. Check the plug wires on a dark night. When you put your hands near the wires, there should be no arcing or glowing spots. If there is, you need new wires. Does the air injection on this car come from an air pump? On some engines, the air injection is just sucked in thru a filter without a pump. Follow the hoses from that secondary air control valve to see where it comes from. If it's a pump, try removing the belt or plugging the hose. If you remove the air source, the unburned gas may just go out the back pipe instead of afterburning in the manifold. If you think it's the carb, you can try getting a carb rebuild kit and have a go at taking it apart, cleaning it and putting things back together. You may discover a partially clogged jet or air bleed. By the way, I find that carb cleaner works a lot better than brake cleaner on oily deposits. (Carb cleaner dissolves paint, brake cleaner generally doesn't, and carb cleaner is a lot cheaper.) Do you know what the idle is on this engine right now? It should be around 700-800, and opening the EGR by hand should result in more than a slight decrease in idle speed. Is the idle cranked up to 1100-1300 to compensate for really bad performance at normal idle? If you want to see the difference, try running the engine with the EGR valve removed. It shouldn't run very well at all. If it does, spray carb cleaner into the passages that you reamed out, a little at a time, until it breaks thru the remaining blockage. I hope one of these suggestions works. I'm also assuming that when you took the head off, you put the head gasket back on with the correct side up. I'm also assuming that all the vacuum and vapor hoses are back where they should be. I remember reading a post here a few years ago where someone switched a vapor return hose with a vacuum hose, and the engine wouldn't run because of all of the extra gas being sucked in. Bob "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message news:vrgemnfl117rd0@corp.supernews.com... > Hi Bob > I made a mistake when I was saying that the ERG was on the exhaust manifold, > it's on the intake manifold. I was talking about the wrong part as I thought > the secondary air control valve was the ERG. Anyhoo I did as you susggested, > except I didin't decarbonize the head. > > > I took off the ERG and inspected it. The valve was gummed up with oil > sludge, cleaned it up (break cleaner) and made a new gasket for it. When > depressing the diaphragm, the valve wasn't sticking and was able to swish > break cleaner back and forth between the two openings for recycled exhaust. > > I reamed out the two ERG passages (on intake manifold) with a used > speedometer cable and a power drill. I was able to feed about 2 and a half > feet into each passage. One of the passages that goes towards the carb, was > clogged with oily sludge, but I was able to clean it and spray some break > cleaner into it to further soften up the sludge. Put the whole thing back > together, ran the car down the road for 20 min and I have the same problem, > red hot exhaust manifold. With the engine at operating temp I revved the > engine, the ERG diaphragm opens all the way (the back of the ERG is open to > see the diaphragm) pushed on the diaphragm with my finger, the idle changes > slightly. So it appears as though the ERG is operating as it should. Any > other suggestions? > > > > Mike > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message > news:boj6gs$9a9$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com... > > The EGR valve may be opening (i.e., the rubber diaphragm is intact), > > but the EGR passage thru the intake manifold back to the head may > > be all clogged up with carbon, especially after 17 years. Open the > > valve by hand or with a vacuum pump while the engine is idling, and > > see if it stalls (it should). > > > > The purpose of exhaust gas recirculation is to lower the temps in the > > combustion chamber a couple of hundred degrees to reduce the > > formation of NOx. As a side effect, it should also drop the temp > > of the exhaust manifold. > > > > If it's clogged, unbolt the valve and clean it out with a screwdriver. > > Clean the passages as best you can with a long thin screwdriver > > or something like an old speedometer cable attached to a > > variable-speed drill. > > > > BTW, have you ever tried decarbonizing the head by spraying water > > into the carb while the engine is at fast idle? Use something like a > > spray cleaner bottle, don't pour water by hand into the carb or you'll > > break a piston or rod due to hydraulic lockup. This should lower the > > compression back to normal if it's on the high side due to carbon > > build-up. You'll get lots of black carbon out the tailpipe, but eventually > > it will subside when it's all cleaned up, leaving you with a little white > > steam. > > > > Bob > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message > > news:vqmjjkqu58hj7c@corp.supernews.com... > > > The ERG valve is opening. The canister did have a cat in it and it was > > > clogged, when I removed it, the temp of the exhaust manifold went down > > > (darker red colour) one thing I did notice is that the coolant temp went > > > down, as though the car is running a little cooler. I suspect that this > is > > > because the exhaust is taking the heat instead of the head. Now why is > > this > > > happening, that's the question!!! It's not a warn crankshaft sprocket as > > > suggested in the previous post, as I have already taken the spocket > > off...it > > > was tough to get off and there is no play, so I guess it's not worn. Any > > > other suggestion? > > > Thanks in advance. > > > Mike : ) > > > "Never pet a burning dog!" > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message > > > news:bof9v1$r9i$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com... > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message > > > > news:vqg5dmtaag32b1@corp.supernews.com... > > > > > Hi PPL > > > > > > > > > > I have a 86 Hyundai Excell, the ehaust monifold gets yellow hot and > is > > > > > visable during daylight hours. The problem only happens when the car > > is > > > > > driven > > > > > down the highway for 10 min or so. The first thing I suspected was a > > > > clogged > > > > > catalytic converter since it is bolted to the exhaust monifold. > Ripped > > > out > > > > > the catalytic converter, now the monifold is only red hot. The car > was > > > > > running rough > > > > > so I suspected a timing problem. I reset the crankshaft and > camshaft > > > > > timing, set the > > > > > distributor timing to 4 degrees BTDC (as per specs), the car idles > > > better > > > > > now but the > > > > > monifold is still red hot. Tried a different pair of plugs, no go. > > Made > > > > > sure the choke was opening, > > > > > it's fine, ERG opens fine. Checked all vacume lines and replaced the > > > ones > > > > > that were broken. Since I recently replaced the head gasket, I > > retorqued > > > > the > > > > > head, no go. Made sure the valve lash was correct (suspected that > the > > > > > exhaust valves weren't closing all the way), no go. Replaced the > > timing > > > > > belt, no go. If I take off timing belt, when the crankshaft and > > camshaft > > > > are > > > > > dead on the timing marks, and turn the crankshaft back (counter > > > clockwise) > > > > > two teeth on the timing belt, the exhaust manifold doesn't get red > hot > > > at > > > > > all and the car has lots more power. The only problem is that the > idel > > > is > > > > a > > > > > little high, and the timing range is off. What I mean by timing > range > > > is: > > > > > the whole range adjusting the distributor timing is 30 degrees BTDC > to > > > > TDC, > > > > > none for ATDC. I's really stange that I would have to move the > > > crankshaft > > > > > back two teeth to fix the problem, all logic says that the > crankshaft > > > and > > > > > camshaft should be set to thier respective timing marks. Does > anybody > > > any > > > > > any advice as I'm still dealing with this problem. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance > > > > > > > > One possibility is a clogged or defective EGR valve. If you open the > > valve > > > > by > > > > hand when it's cool it should remain open when you cover the vacuum > > nipple > > > > with a spare finger. If you open the valve by hand with the engine > > running > > > > (before it gets hot), the idle should drop and/or stumble/stall. > > > > > > > > Does this engine have some sort of air injection into the exhaust > > manifold > > > > as > > > > well as into the cat? If so, the diverter valve may be shot and it's > > > pumping > > > > air into the manifold all the time. If your exhaust is too rich > > (misfire), > > > > this would > > > > cause the glowing. > > > > > > > > I suspect that your cat was an empty canister when you removed it? > > > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > |
Re: Red Hot Exhaust Manifold
Yeppers I'm stumped to
Ya I had a Cavalier with a bad cat, the carpet caught on fire LOL The plugs are a tan colour, so the mixture seems to be correct. The spark plug wires are new and not arcing. There is no air injection system (air jet valve beside intake valve) on the 86 model. The car is idling fine so I'll assume for now the carb is ok. what else...ummm let's see...oh ya, the idle is around 900 RPM when the car is at operating temp. I'll remove the ERG and see if the car runs like to verify that the ERG passage has been cleared. If not then I'll do as you suggested and try cleaning the passage again. The head gasket wasn't put on back wards as there is only one way to align the bolt holes. If I put the head gasket was on backwards, how would that affect the ERG passage? I was under the assumption that the ERG passage went from the intake manifold through the head and not the block. As I mentioned I was able to feed 2 feet of the speedometer cable through both passages. Do you think that is far enough? When ever I took a vacuum line off, I made sure that it I put it back in the correct place, but I'll double check that tomorrow. I was also thinking that, I could take off the intake manifold, that would give me a better view of the ERG passages and do some extra cleaning if nessary. Thanks for the suggestions, if this doesn't fix the problem, then I think I'm going to drive the car off of a cliff. : ( Bye for now Mike "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message news:bp9ks0$o5f$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com... > I'm stumped. On other cars (not Hyundai), I've seen red-hot > catalytic converters when there's a lot of unburned gas due to > bad spark plugs or wires. In this case, you'd notice a rough > idle most of the time. It's also possible that the engine is running > too rich (or as others have suggested, too lean) at highway > speeds due to a leaky or clogged carb. You might be able to tell > which way it's running by examining the spark plugs. If it's too rich > one or more will be black and sooty. If too lean, they'll be really, > really clean & white. Normally, they have slight tan deposits on > the ceramic part. Check the plug wires on a dark night. When you > put your hands near the wires, there should be no arcing or > glowing spots. If there is, you need new wires. > > Does the air injection on this car come from an air pump? On some > engines, the air injection is just sucked in thru a filter without a > pump. Follow the hoses from that secondary air control valve to > see where it comes from. If it's a pump, try removing the belt or > plugging the hose. If you remove the air source, the unburned gas > may just go out the back pipe instead of afterburning in the manifold. > > If you think it's the carb, you can try getting a carb rebuild kit and have > a go at taking it apart, cleaning it and putting things back together. > You may discover a partially clogged jet or air bleed. > > By the way, I find that carb cleaner works a lot better than brake > cleaner on oily deposits. (Carb cleaner dissolves paint, brake cleaner > generally doesn't, and carb cleaner is a lot cheaper.) > > Do you know what the idle is on this engine right now? It should be > around 700-800, and opening the EGR by hand should result in more > than a slight decrease in idle speed. Is the idle cranked up to 1100-1300 > to compensate for really bad performance at normal idle? If you want > to see the difference, try running the engine with the EGR valve removed. > It shouldn't run very well at all. If it does, spray carb cleaner into the > passages that you reamed out, a little at a time, until it breaks thru > the remaining blockage. > > I hope one of these suggestions works. I'm also assuming that when you > took the head off, you put the head gasket back on with the correct side > up. I'm also assuming that all the vacuum and vapor hoses are back where > they should be. I remember reading a post here a few years ago where > someone switched a vapor return hose with a vacuum hose, and the engine > wouldn't run because of all of the extra gas being sucked in. > > Bob > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message > news:vrgemnfl117rd0@corp.supernews.com... > > Hi Bob > > I made a mistake when I was saying that the ERG was on the exhaust > manifold, > > it's on the intake manifold. I was talking about the wrong part as I > thought > > the secondary air control valve was the ERG. Anyhoo I did as you > susggested, > > except I didin't decarbonize the head. > > > > > > I took off the ERG and inspected it. The valve was gummed up with oil > > sludge, cleaned it up (break cleaner) and made a new gasket for it. When > > depressing the diaphragm, the valve wasn't sticking and was able to swish > > break cleaner back and forth between the two openings for recycled > exhaust. > > > > I reamed out the two ERG passages (on intake manifold) with a used > > speedometer cable and a power drill. I was able to feed about 2 and a half > > feet into each passage. One of the passages that goes towards the carb, > was > > clogged with oily sludge, but I was able to clean it and spray some break > > cleaner into it to further soften up the sludge. Put the whole thing back > > together, ran the car down the road for 20 min and I have the same > problem, > > red hot exhaust manifold. With the engine at operating temp I revved the > > engine, the ERG diaphragm opens all the way (the back of the ERG is open > to > > see the diaphragm) pushed on the diaphragm with my finger, the idle > changes > > slightly. So it appears as though the ERG is operating as it should. Any > > other suggestions? > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message > > news:boj6gs$9a9$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com... > > > The EGR valve may be opening (i.e., the rubber diaphragm is intact), > > > but the EGR passage thru the intake manifold back to the head may > > > be all clogged up with carbon, especially after 17 years. Open the > > > valve by hand or with a vacuum pump while the engine is idling, and > > > see if it stalls (it should). > > > > > > The purpose of exhaust gas recirculation is to lower the temps in the > > > combustion chamber a couple of hundred degrees to reduce the > > > formation of NOx. As a side effect, it should also drop the temp > > > of the exhaust manifold. > > > > > > If it's clogged, unbolt the valve and clean it out with a screwdriver. > > > Clean the passages as best you can with a long thin screwdriver > > > or something like an old speedometer cable attached to a > > > variable-speed drill. > > > > > > BTW, have you ever tried decarbonizing the head by spraying water > > > into the carb while the engine is at fast idle? Use something like a > > > spray cleaner bottle, don't pour water by hand into the carb or you'll > > > break a piston or rod due to hydraulic lockup. This should lower the > > > compression back to normal if it's on the high side due to carbon > > > build-up. You'll get lots of black carbon out the tailpipe, but > eventually > > > it will subside when it's all cleaned up, leaving you with a little > white > > > steam. > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message > > > news:vqmjjkqu58hj7c@corp.supernews.com... > > > > The ERG valve is opening. The canister did have a cat in it and it was > > > > clogged, when I removed it, the temp of the exhaust manifold went down > > > > (darker red colour) one thing I did notice is that the coolant temp > went > > > > down, as though the car is running a little cooler. I suspect that > this > > is > > > > because the exhaust is taking the heat instead of the head. Now why is > > > this > > > > happening, that's the question!!! It's not a warn crankshaft sprocket > as > > > > suggested in the previous post, as I have already taken the spocket > > > off...it > > > > was tough to get off and there is no play, so I guess it's not worn. > Any > > > > other suggestion? > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > Mike : ) > > > > "Never pet a burning dog!" > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message > > > > news:bof9v1$r9i$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com... > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message > > > > > news:vqg5dmtaag32b1@corp.supernews.com... > > > > > > Hi PPL > > > > > > > > > > > > I have a 86 Hyundai Excell, the ehaust monifold gets yellow hot > and > > is > > > > > > visable during daylight hours. The problem only happens when the > car > > > is > > > > > > driven > > > > > > down the highway for 10 min or so. The first thing I suspected was > a > > > > > clogged > > > > > > catalytic converter since it is bolted to the exhaust monifold. > > Ripped > > > > out > > > > > > the catalytic converter, now the monifold is only red hot. The car > > was > > > > > > running rough > > > > > > so I suspected a timing problem. I reset the crankshaft and > > camshaft > > > > > > timing, set the > > > > > > distributor timing to 4 degrees BTDC (as per specs), the car idles > > > > better > > > > > > now but the > > > > > > monifold is still red hot. Tried a different pair of plugs, no > go. > > > Made > > > > > > sure the choke was opening, > > > > > > it's fine, ERG opens fine. Checked all vacume lines and replaced > the > > > > ones > > > > > > that were broken. Since I recently replaced the head gasket, I > > > retorqued > > > > > the > > > > > > head, no go. Made sure the valve lash was correct (suspected that > > the > > > > > > exhaust valves weren't closing all the way), no go. Replaced the > > > timing > > > > > > belt, no go. If I take off timing belt, when the crankshaft and > > > camshaft > > > > > are > > > > > > dead on the timing marks, and turn the crankshaft back (counter > > > > clockwise) > > > > > > two teeth on the timing belt, the exhaust manifold doesn't get red > > hot > > > > at > > > > > > all and the car has lots more power. The only problem is that the > > idel > > > > is > > > > > a > > > > > > little high, and the timing range is off. What I mean by timing > > range > > > > is: > > > > > > the whole range adjusting the distributor timing is 30 degrees > BTDC > > to > > > > > TDC, > > > > > > none for ATDC. I's really stange that I would have to move the > > > > crankshaft > > > > > > back two teeth to fix the problem, all logic says that the > > crankshaft > > > > and > > > > > > camshaft should be set to thier respective timing marks. Does > > anybody > > > > any > > > > > > any advice as I'm still dealing with this problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance > > > > > > > > > > One possibility is a clogged or defective EGR valve. If you open the > > > valve > > > > > by > > > > > hand when it's cool it should remain open when you cover the vacuum > > > nipple > > > > > with a spare finger. If you open the valve by hand with the engine > > > running > > > > > (before it gets hot), the idle should drop and/or stumble/stall. > > > > > > > > > > Does this engine have some sort of air injection into the exhaust > > > manifold > > > > > as > > > > > well as into the cat? If so, the diverter valve may be shot and it's > > > > pumping > > > > > air into the manifold all the time. If your exhaust is too rich > > > (misfire), > > > > > this would > > > > > cause the glowing. > > > > > > > > > > I suspect that your cat was an empty canister when you removed it? > > > > > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > |
Re: Red Hot Exhaust Manifold
The thing with most head gaskets is that on many engines, you
*can* put them on upside down (flipped left to right) and the bolt holes still line up, but the coolant passages don't, so you have partially blocked passages and an overheated head. The idle is a bit high (s.b. 750±100) . Does it refuse to idle at lower speeds? I couldn't find the online manual for your Excel at www.hmaservice.com/webtech , the closest I could get is 1988. Do you have a feedback carb and an O2 sensor? If you do and your O2 sensor is dead, the ECU might think that it needs to increase the O2 by leaning out the mixture as much as it can, but not so much that you'd notice a performance problem at highway speeds. Looking at the 1988 manual, your secondary air control valve is supposed to let air into the exhaust manfold when the engine is warming up, then it switches to sending air downstream to the 2nd cat under the car. If this valve is burnt out or always open, air would always be going into the manifold and causing the red-hot condition. Try plugging the hose from the valve to the manifold and see if things improve. There should also be some sort of check valve where the hose meets the manifold to prevent hot exhaust from going back thru the hose and burning up the valve. The cliff is starting to sound much better. Bob "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message news:vrgsejs3al6816@corp.supernews.com... > Yeppers I'm stumped to > Ya I had a Cavalier with a bad cat, the carpet caught on fire LOL > The plugs are a tan colour, so the mixture seems to be correct. The spark > plug wires are new and not arcing. There is no air injection system (air jet > valve beside intake valve) on the 86 model. The car is idling fine so I'll > assume for now the carb is ok. > what else...ummm let's see...oh ya, the idle is around 900 RPM when the car > is at operating temp. I'll remove the ERG and see if the car runs like > to verify that the ERG passage has been cleared. If not then I'll do as you > suggested and try cleaning the passage again. The head gasket wasn't put on > back wards as there is only one way to align the bolt holes. If I put the > head gasket was on backwards, how would that affect the ERG passage? I was > under the assumption that the ERG passage went from the intake manifold > through the head and not the block. As I mentioned I was able to feed 2 feet > of the speedometer cable through both passages. Do you think that is far > enough? When ever I took a vacuum line off, I made sure that it I put it > back in the correct place, but I'll double check that tomorrow. I was also > thinking that, I could take off the intake manifold, that would give me a > better view of the ERG passages and do some extra cleaning if nessary. > > Thanks for the suggestions, if this doesn't fix the problem, then I think > I'm going to drive the car off of a cliff. : ( > Bye for now > Mike > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message > news:bp9ks0$o5f$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com... > > I'm stumped. On other cars (not Hyundai), I've seen red-hot > > catalytic converters when there's a lot of unburned gas due to > > bad spark plugs or wires. In this case, you'd notice a rough > > idle most of the time. It's also possible that the engine is running > > too rich (or as others have suggested, too lean) at highway > > speeds due to a leaky or clogged carb. You might be able to tell > > which way it's running by examining the spark plugs. If it's too rich > > one or more will be black and sooty. If too lean, they'll be really, > > really clean & white. Normally, they have slight tan deposits on > > the ceramic part. Check the plug wires on a dark night. When you > > put your hands near the wires, there should be no arcing or > > glowing spots. If there is, you need new wires. > > > > Does the air injection on this car come from an air pump? On some > > engines, the air injection is just sucked in thru a filter without a > > pump. Follow the hoses from that secondary air control valve to > > see where it comes from. If it's a pump, try removing the belt or > > plugging the hose. If you remove the air source, the unburned gas > > may just go out the back pipe instead of afterburning in the manifold. > > > > If you think it's the carb, you can try getting a carb rebuild kit and > have > > a go at taking it apart, cleaning it and putting things back together. > > You may discover a partially clogged jet or air bleed. > > > > By the way, I find that carb cleaner works a lot better than brake > > cleaner on oily deposits. (Carb cleaner dissolves paint, brake cleaner > > generally doesn't, and carb cleaner is a lot cheaper.) > > > > Do you know what the idle is on this engine right now? It should be > > around 700-800, and opening the EGR by hand should result in more > > than a slight decrease in idle speed. Is the idle cranked up to 1100-1300 > > to compensate for really bad performance at normal idle? If you want > > to see the difference, try running the engine with the EGR valve removed. > > It shouldn't run very well at all. If it does, spray carb cleaner into the > > passages that you reamed out, a little at a time, until it breaks thru > > the remaining blockage. > > > > I hope one of these suggestions works. I'm also assuming that when you > > took the head off, you put the head gasket back on with the correct side > > up. I'm also assuming that all the vacuum and vapor hoses are back where > > they should be. I remember reading a post here a few years ago where > > someone switched a vapor return hose with a vacuum hose, and the engine > > wouldn't run because of all of the extra gas being sucked in. > > > > Bob > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message > > news:vrgemnfl117rd0@corp.supernews.com... > > > Hi Bob > > > I made a mistake when I was saying that the ERG was on the exhaust > > manifold, > > > it's on the intake manifold. I was talking about the wrong part as I > > thought > > > the secondary air control valve was the ERG. Anyhoo I did as you > > susggested, > > > except I didin't decarbonize the head. > > > > > > > > > I took off the ERG and inspected it. The valve was gummed up with oil > > > sludge, cleaned it up (break cleaner) and made a new gasket for it. When > > > depressing the diaphragm, the valve wasn't sticking and was able to > swish > > > break cleaner back and forth between the two openings for recycled > > exhaust. > > > > > > I reamed out the two ERG passages (on intake manifold) with a used > > > speedometer cable and a power drill. I was able to feed about 2 and a > half > > > feet into each passage. One of the passages that goes towards the carb, > > was > > > clogged with oily sludge, but I was able to clean it and spray some > break > > > cleaner into it to further soften up the sludge. Put the whole thing > back > > > together, ran the car down the road for 20 min and I have the same > > problem, > > > red hot exhaust manifold. With the engine at operating temp I revved the > > > engine, the ERG diaphragm opens all the way (the back of the ERG is open > > to > > > see the diaphragm) pushed on the diaphragm with my finger, the idle > > changes > > > slightly. So it appears as though the ERG is operating as it should. Any > > > other suggestions? > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message > > > news:boj6gs$9a9$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com... > > > > The EGR valve may be opening (i.e., the rubber diaphragm is intact), > > > > but the EGR passage thru the intake manifold back to the head may > > > > be all clogged up with carbon, especially after 17 years. Open the > > > > valve by hand or with a vacuum pump while the engine is idling, and > > > > see if it stalls (it should). > > > > > > > > The purpose of exhaust gas recirculation is to lower the temps in the > > > > combustion chamber a couple of hundred degrees to reduce the > > > > formation of NOx. As a side effect, it should also drop the temp > > > > of the exhaust manifold. > > > > > > > > If it's clogged, unbolt the valve and clean it out with a screwdriver. > > > > Clean the passages as best you can with a long thin screwdriver > > > > or something like an old speedometer cable attached to a > > > > variable-speed drill. > > > > > > > > BTW, have you ever tried decarbonizing the head by spraying water > > > > into the carb while the engine is at fast idle? Use something like a > > > > spray cleaner bottle, don't pour water by hand into the carb or you'll > > > > break a piston or rod due to hydraulic lockup. This should lower the > > > > compression back to normal if it's on the high side due to carbon > > > > build-up. You'll get lots of black carbon out the tailpipe, but > > eventually > > > > it will subside when it's all cleaned up, leaving you with a little > > white > > > > steam. > > > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message > > > > news:vqmjjkqu58hj7c@corp.supernews.com... > > > > > The ERG valve is opening. The canister did have a cat in it and it > was > > > > > clogged, when I removed it, the temp of the exhaust manifold went > down > > > > > (darker red colour) one thing I did notice is that the coolant temp > > went > > > > > down, as though the car is running a little cooler. I suspect that > > this > > > is > > > > > because the exhaust is taking the heat instead of the head. Now why > is > > > > this > > > > > happening, that's the question!!! It's not a warn crankshaft > sprocket > > as > > > > > suggested in the previous post, as I have already taken the spocket > > > > off...it > > > > > was tough to get off and there is no play, so I guess it's not worn. > > Any > > > > > other suggestion? > > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > > Mike : ) > > > > > "Never pet a burning dog!" > > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message > > > > > news:bof9v1$r9i$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com... > > > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message > > > > > > news:vqg5dmtaag32b1@corp.supernews.com... > > > > > > > Hi PPL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have a 86 Hyundai Excell, the ehaust monifold gets yellow hot > > and > > > is > > > > > > > visable during daylight hours. The problem only happens when the > > car > > > > is > > > > > > > driven > > > > > > > down the highway for 10 min or so. The first thing I suspected > was > > a > > > > > > clogged > > > > > > > catalytic converter since it is bolted to the exhaust monifold. > > > Ripped > > > > > out > > > > > > > the catalytic converter, now the monifold is only red hot. The > car > > > was > > > > > > > running rough > > > > > > > so I suspected a timing problem. I reset the crankshaft and > > > camshaft > > > > > > > timing, set the > > > > > > > distributor timing to 4 degrees BTDC (as per specs), the car > idles > > > > > better > > > > > > > now but the > > > > > > > monifold is still red hot. Tried a different pair of plugs, no > > go. > > > > Made > > > > > > > sure the choke was opening, > > > > > > > it's fine, ERG opens fine. Checked all vacume lines and replaced > > the > > > > > ones > > > > > > > that were broken. Since I recently replaced the head gasket, I > > > > retorqued > > > > > > the > > > > > > > head, no go. Made sure the valve lash was correct (suspected > that > > > the > > > > > > > exhaust valves weren't closing all the way), no go. Replaced the > > > > timing > > > > > > > belt, no go. If I take off timing belt, when the crankshaft and > > > > camshaft > > > > > > are > > > > > > > dead on the timing marks, and turn the crankshaft back (counter > > > > > clockwise) > > > > > > > two teeth on the timing belt, the exhaust manifold doesn't get > red > > > hot > > > > > at > > > > > > > all and the car has lots more power. The only problem is that > the > > > idel > > > > > is > > > > > > a > > > > > > > little high, and the timing range is off. What I mean by timing > > > range > > > > > is: > > > > > > > the whole range adjusting the distributor timing is 30 degrees > > BTDC > > > to > > > > > > TDC, > > > > > > > none for ATDC. I's really stange that I would have to move the > > > > > crankshaft > > > > > > > back two teeth to fix the problem, all logic says that the > > > crankshaft > > > > > and > > > > > > > camshaft should be set to thier respective timing marks. Does > > > anybody > > > > > any > > > > > > > any advice as I'm still dealing with this problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance > > > > > > > > > > > > One possibility is a clogged or defective EGR valve. If you open > the > > > > valve > > > > > > by > > > > > > hand when it's cool it should remain open when you cover the > vacuum > > > > nipple > > > > > > with a spare finger. If you open the valve by hand with the engine > > > > running > > > > > > (before it gets hot), the idle should drop and/or stumble/stall. > > > > > > > > > > > > Does this engine have some sort of air injection into the exhaust > > > > manifold > > > > > > as > > > > > > well as into the cat? If so, the diverter valve may be shot and > it's > > > > > pumping > > > > > > air into the manifold all the time. If your exhaust is too rich > > > > (misfire), > > > > > > this would > > > > > > cause the glowing. > > > > > > > > > > > > I suspect that your cat was an empty canister when you removed it? > > > > > > > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > |
Re: Red Hot Exhaust Manifold
Yep that is true with the head gasket, however for the after market head
gasket that I bought, it will fit on only one way.. The coolant circulates IE: I have heat inside of the car and there I get oil to the head.It might be possiable that I might have some how put the head gasket on backwards as anything is possiable, 99% I didn't. The idle is a tad high, it's because I have a weak return spring for the Primary Throttle, I've shorthened the spring (more springy : )) however the idle sometimes is a little high. Anyhoo I think I'm going to take the carb and intake manifold off today, and try reaming out the ERG passages in the head and intake manifold. If I don't find some kind of restriction then I'll take off the head and see where I'm at from there. Ohh ya one thing to mention, the head isn't as hot as it's been before, but that might be because it's fall here is Saskatchewan, burrrrr getting chilly outside. "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message news:bpd6a9$8r9$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com... > The thing with most head gaskets is that on many engines, you > *can* put them on upside down (flipped left to right) and the bolt > holes still line up, but the coolant passages don't, so you have > partially blocked passages and an overheated head. > > The idle is a bit high (s.b. 750±100) . Does it refuse to idle at > lower speeds? > > I couldn't find the online manual for your Excel at > www.hmaservice.com/webtech , the closest I could get is 1988. > Do you have a feedback carb and an O2 sensor? If you do and > your O2 sensor is dead, the ECU might think that it needs to > increase the O2 by leaning out the mixture as much as it can, > but not so much that you'd notice a performance problem at > highway speeds. > > Looking at the 1988 manual, your secondary air control valve is > supposed to let air into the exhaust manfold when the engine is > warming up, then it switches to sending air downstream to the > 2nd cat under the car. If this valve is burnt out or always open, > air would always be going into the manifold and causing the > red-hot condition. Try plugging the hose from the valve to the > manifold and see if things improve. There should also be some > sort of check valve where the hose meets the manifold to > prevent hot exhaust from going back thru the hose and burning > up the valve. > > The cliff is starting to sound much better. > > Bob > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message > news:vrgsejs3al6816@corp.supernews.com... > > Yeppers I'm stumped to > > Ya I had a Cavalier with a bad cat, the carpet caught on fire LOL > > The plugs are a tan colour, so the mixture seems to be correct. The spark > > plug wires are new and not arcing. There is no air injection system (air > jet > > valve beside intake valve) on the 86 model. The car is idling fine so I'll > > assume for now the carb is ok. > > what else...ummm let's see...oh ya, the idle is around 900 RPM when the > car > > is at operating temp. I'll remove the ERG and see if the car runs like > > > to verify that the ERG passage has been cleared. If not then I'll do as > you > > suggested and try cleaning the passage again. The head gasket wasn't put > on > > back wards as there is only one way to align the bolt holes. If I put the > > head gasket was on backwards, how would that affect the ERG passage? I was > > under the assumption that the ERG passage went from the intake manifold > > through the head and not the block. As I mentioned I was able to feed 2 > feet > > of the speedometer cable through both passages. Do you think that is far > > enough? When ever I took a vacuum line off, I made sure that it I put it > > back in the correct place, but I'll double check that tomorrow. I was also > > thinking that, I could take off the intake manifold, that would give me a > > better view of the ERG passages and do some extra cleaning if nessary. > > > > Thanks for the suggestions, if this doesn't fix the problem, then I think > > I'm going to drive the car off of a cliff. : ( > > Bye for now > > Mike > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message > > news:bp9ks0$o5f$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com... > > > I'm stumped. On other cars (not Hyundai), I've seen red-hot > > > catalytic converters when there's a lot of unburned gas due to > > > bad spark plugs or wires. In this case, you'd notice a rough > > > idle most of the time. It's also possible that the engine is running > > > too rich (or as others have suggested, too lean) at highway > > > speeds due to a leaky or clogged carb. You might be able to tell > > > which way it's running by examining the spark plugs. If it's too rich > > > one or more will be black and sooty. If too lean, they'll be really, > > > really clean & white. Normally, they have slight tan deposits on > > > the ceramic part. Check the plug wires on a dark night. When you > > > put your hands near the wires, there should be no arcing or > > > glowing spots. If there is, you need new wires. > > > > > > Does the air injection on this car come from an air pump? On some > > > engines, the air injection is just sucked in thru a filter without a > > > pump. Follow the hoses from that secondary air control valve to > > > see where it comes from. If it's a pump, try removing the belt or > > > plugging the hose. If you remove the air source, the unburned gas > > > may just go out the back pipe instead of afterburning in the manifold. > > > > > > If you think it's the carb, you can try getting a carb rebuild kit and > > have > > > a go at taking it apart, cleaning it and putting things back together. > > > You may discover a partially clogged jet or air bleed. > > > > > > By the way, I find that carb cleaner works a lot better than brake > > > cleaner on oily deposits. (Carb cleaner dissolves paint, brake cleaner > > > generally doesn't, and carb cleaner is a lot cheaper.) > > > > > > Do you know what the idle is on this engine right now? It should be > > > around 700-800, and opening the EGR by hand should result in more > > > than a slight decrease in idle speed. Is the idle cranked up to > 1100-1300 > > > to compensate for really bad performance at normal idle? If you want > > > to see the difference, try running the engine with the EGR valve > removed. > > > It shouldn't run very well at all. If it does, spray carb cleaner into > the > > > passages that you reamed out, a little at a time, until it breaks thru > > > the remaining blockage. > > > > > > I hope one of these suggestions works. I'm also assuming that when you > > > took the head off, you put the head gasket back on with the correct side > > > up. I'm also assuming that all the vacuum and vapor hoses are back where > > > they should be. I remember reading a post here a few years ago where > > > someone switched a vapor return hose with a vacuum hose, and the engine > > > wouldn't run because of all of the extra gas being sucked in. > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message > > > news:vrgemnfl117rd0@corp.supernews.com... > > > > Hi Bob > > > > I made a mistake when I was saying that the ERG was on the exhaust > > > manifold, > > > > it's on the intake manifold. I was talking about the wrong part as I > > > thought > > > > the secondary air control valve was the ERG. Anyhoo I did as you > > > susggested, > > > > except I didin't decarbonize the head. > > > > > > > > > > > > I took off the ERG and inspected it. The valve was gummed up with oil > > > > sludge, cleaned it up (break cleaner) and made a new gasket for it. > When > > > > depressing the diaphragm, the valve wasn't sticking and was able to > > swish > > > > break cleaner back and forth between the two openings for recycled > > > exhaust. > > > > > > > > I reamed out the two ERG passages (on intake manifold) with a used > > > > speedometer cable and a power drill. I was able to feed about 2 and a > > half > > > > feet into each passage. One of the passages that goes towards the > carb, > > > was > > > > clogged with oily sludge, but I was able to clean it and spray some > > break > > > > cleaner into it to further soften up the sludge. Put the whole thing > > back > > > > together, ran the car down the road for 20 min and I have the same > > > problem, > > > > red hot exhaust manifold. With the engine at operating temp I revved > the > > > > engine, the ERG diaphragm opens all the way (the back of the ERG is > open > > > to > > > > see the diaphragm) pushed on the diaphragm with my finger, the idle > > > changes > > > > slightly. So it appears as though the ERG is operating as it should. > Any > > > > other suggestions? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message > > > > news:boj6gs$9a9$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com... > > > > > The EGR valve may be opening (i.e., the rubber diaphragm is intact), > > > > > but the EGR passage thru the intake manifold back to the head may > > > > > be all clogged up with carbon, especially after 17 years. Open the > > > > > valve by hand or with a vacuum pump while the engine is idling, and > > > > > see if it stalls (it should). > > > > > > > > > > The purpose of exhaust gas recirculation is to lower the temps in > the > > > > > combustion chamber a couple of hundred degrees to reduce the > > > > > formation of NOx. As a side effect, it should also drop the temp > > > > > of the exhaust manifold. > > > > > > > > > > If it's clogged, unbolt the valve and clean it out with a > screwdriver. > > > > > Clean the passages as best you can with a long thin screwdriver > > > > > or something like an old speedometer cable attached to a > > > > > variable-speed drill. > > > > > > > > > > BTW, have you ever tried decarbonizing the head by spraying water > > > > > into the carb while the engine is at fast idle? Use something like a > > > > > spray cleaner bottle, don't pour water by hand into the carb or > you'll > > > > > break a piston or rod due to hydraulic lockup. This should lower the > > > > > compression back to normal if it's on the high side due to carbon > > > > > build-up. You'll get lots of black carbon out the tailpipe, but > > > eventually > > > > > it will subside when it's all cleaned up, leaving you with a little > > > white > > > > > steam. > > > > > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message > > > > > news:vqmjjkqu58hj7c@corp.supernews.com... > > > > > > The ERG valve is opening. The canister did have a cat in it and it > > was > > > > > > clogged, when I removed it, the temp of the exhaust manifold went > > down > > > > > > (darker red colour) one thing I did notice is that the coolant > temp > > > went > > > > > > down, as though the car is running a little cooler. I suspect that > > > this > > > > is > > > > > > because the exhaust is taking the heat instead of the head. Now > why > > is > > > > > this > > > > > > happening, that's the question!!! It's not a warn crankshaft > > sprocket > > > as > > > > > > suggested in the previous post, as I have already taken the > spocket > > > > > off...it > > > > > > was tough to get off and there is no play, so I guess it's not > worn. > > > Any > > > > > > other suggestion? > > > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > > > Mike : ) > > > > > > "Never pet a burning dog!" > > > > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message > > > > > > news:bof9v1$r9i$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message > > > > > > > news:vqg5dmtaag32b1@corp.supernews.com... > > > > > > > > Hi PPL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have a 86 Hyundai Excell, the ehaust monifold gets yellow > hot > > > and > > > > is > > > > > > > > visable during daylight hours. The problem only happens when > the > > > car > > > > > is > > > > > > > > driven > > > > > > > > down the highway for 10 min or so. The first thing I suspected > > was > > > a > > > > > > > clogged > > > > > > > > catalytic converter since it is bolted to the exhaust > monifold. > > > > Ripped > > > > > > out > > > > > > > > the catalytic converter, now the monifold is only red hot. The > > car > > > > was > > > > > > > > running rough > > > > > > > > so I suspected a timing problem. I reset the crankshaft and > > > > camshaft > > > > > > > > timing, set the > > > > > > > > distributor timing to 4 degrees BTDC (as per specs), the car > > idles > > > > > > better > > > > > > > > now but the > > > > > > > > monifold is still red hot. Tried a different pair of plugs, > no > > > go. > > > > > Made > > > > > > > > sure the choke was opening, > > > > > > > > it's fine, ERG opens fine. Checked all vacume lines and > replaced > > > the > > > > > > ones > > > > > > > > that were broken. Since I recently replaced the head gasket, I > > > > > retorqued > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > head, no go. Made sure the valve lash was correct (suspected > > that > > > > the > > > > > > > > exhaust valves weren't closing all the way), no go. Replaced > the > > > > > timing > > > > > > > > belt, no go. If I take off timing belt, when the crankshaft > and > > > > > camshaft > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > dead on the timing marks, and turn the crankshaft back > (counter > > > > > > clockwise) > > > > > > > > two teeth on the timing belt, the exhaust manifold doesn't get > > red > > > > hot > > > > > > at > > > > > > > > all and the car has lots more power. The only problem is that > > the > > > > idel > > > > > > is > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > little high, and the timing range is off. What I mean by > timing > > > > range > > > > > > is: > > > > > > > > the whole range adjusting the distributor timing is 30 degrees > > > BTDC > > > > to > > > > > > > TDC, > > > > > > > > none for ATDC. I's really stange that I would have to move the > > > > > > crankshaft > > > > > > > > back two teeth to fix the problem, all logic says that the > > > > crankshaft > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > camshaft should be set to thier respective timing marks. Does > > > > anybody > > > > > > any > > > > > > > > any advice as I'm still dealing with this problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One possibility is a clogged or defective EGR valve. If you open > > the > > > > > valve > > > > > > > by > > > > > > > hand when it's cool it should remain open when you cover the > > vacuum > > > > > nipple > > > > > > > with a spare finger. If you open the valve by hand with the > engine > > > > > running > > > > > > > (before it gets hot), the idle should drop and/or stumble/stall. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Does this engine have some sort of air injection into the > exhaust > > > > > manifold > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > well as into the cat? If so, the diverter valve may be shot and > > it's > > > > > > pumping > > > > > > > air into the manifold all the time. If your exhaust is too rich > > > > > (misfire), > > > > > > > this would > > > > > > > cause the glowing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I suspect that your cat was an empty canister when you removed > it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > |
Re: Red Hot Exhaust Manifold
Hey Bob, me thinks I got it figured out.
I think the whole problem is timing advance. Remember I was saying that I have to set the crankshaft back two teeth to eliminate the glowing red exhaust manifold problem. Currently I've left the crankshaft at a half of a tooth backwards (as close to timing mark as I can) and the distributor timing has been left at 10% BTDC (book says 4%) If I change the distributor timing to 4% BTDC, the problem gets worse and the car has hardly any power on the highway. Checked the spark plugs and now they are black. Changed the distributor to 12% BTDC, plugs are starting to go to a dark tan colour. I'm thinking that the timing isn't advancing enough (when driving down the highway) because, either shifting the crankshaft back two teeth or, with the crankshaft back half a tooth, advancing the distributor timing to 12% BTDC, has the same effect. I checked the distributor timing, with a timing light (12%BTDC) and revved the engine, the timing doesn't seem to move much from the timing mark IE: the timing blur on the crankshaft pulley doesn't go advance to say 20% BTDC Now here is where things don't make sense, how can I wipp down the road at 140Kph if the timing isn't advancing? Maybe it's because I've set the timing to 12% BTDC???? Any suggestions??? "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message news:vrkjsm843rmua1@corp.supernews.com... > Yep that is true with the head gasket, however for the after market head > gasket that I bought, it will fit on only one way.. The coolant circulates > IE: I have heat inside of the car and there I get oil to the head.It might > be possiable that I might have some how put the head gasket on backwards as > anything is possiable, 99% I didn't. The idle is a tad high, it's because I > have a weak return spring for the Primary Throttle, I've shorthened the > spring (more springy : )) however the idle sometimes is a little high. > Anyhoo I think I'm going to take the carb and intake manifold off today, and > try reaming out the ERG passages in the head and intake manifold. If I don't > find some kind of restriction then I'll take off the head and see where I'm > at from there. Ohh ya one thing to mention, the head isn't as hot as it's > been before, but that might be because it's fall here is Saskatchewan, > burrrrr getting chilly outside. > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message > news:bpd6a9$8r9$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com... > > The thing with most head gaskets is that on many engines, you > > *can* put them on upside down (flipped left to right) and the bolt > > holes still line up, but the coolant passages don't, so you have > > partially blocked passages and an overheated head. > > > > The idle is a bit high (s.b. 750±100) . Does it refuse to idle at > > lower speeds? > > > > I couldn't find the online manual for your Excel at > > www.hmaservice.com/webtech , the closest I could get is 1988. > > Do you have a feedback carb and an O2 sensor? If you do and > > your O2 sensor is dead, the ECU might think that it needs to > > increase the O2 by leaning out the mixture as much as it can, > > but not so much that you'd notice a performance problem at > > highway speeds. > > > > Looking at the 1988 manual, your secondary air control valve is > > supposed to let air into the exhaust manfold when the engine is > > warming up, then it switches to sending air downstream to the > > 2nd cat under the car. If this valve is burnt out or always open, > > air would always be going into the manifold and causing the > > red-hot condition. Try plugging the hose from the valve to the > > manifold and see if things improve. There should also be some > > sort of check valve where the hose meets the manifold to > > prevent hot exhaust from going back thru the hose and burning > > up the valve. > > > > The cliff is starting to sound much better. > > > > Bob > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message > > news:vrgsejs3al6816@corp.supernews.com... > > > Yeppers I'm stumped to > > > Ya I had a Cavalier with a bad cat, the carpet caught on fire LOL > > > The plugs are a tan colour, so the mixture seems to be correct. The > spark > > > plug wires are new and not arcing. There is no air injection system (air > > jet > > > valve beside intake valve) on the 86 model. The car is idling fine so > I'll > > > assume for now the carb is ok. > > > what else...ummm let's see...oh ya, the idle is around 900 RPM when the > > car > > > is at operating temp. I'll remove the ERG and see if the car runs like > > > > > to verify that the ERG passage has been cleared. If not then I'll do as > > you > > > suggested and try cleaning the passage again. The head gasket wasn't put > > on > > > back wards as there is only one way to align the bolt holes. If I put > the > > > head gasket was on backwards, how would that affect the ERG passage? I > was > > > under the assumption that the ERG passage went from the intake manifold > > > through the head and not the block. As I mentioned I was able to feed 2 > > feet > > > of the speedometer cable through both passages. Do you think that is far > > > enough? When ever I took a vacuum line off, I made sure that it I put it > > > back in the correct place, but I'll double check that tomorrow. I was > also > > > thinking that, I could take off the intake manifold, that would give me > a > > > better view of the ERG passages and do some extra cleaning if nessary. > > > > > > Thanks for the suggestions, if this doesn't fix the problem, then I > think > > > I'm going to drive the car off of a cliff. : ( > > > Bye for now > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message > > > news:bp9ks0$o5f$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com... > > > > I'm stumped. On other cars (not Hyundai), I've seen red-hot > > > > catalytic converters when there's a lot of unburned gas due to > > > > bad spark plugs or wires. In this case, you'd notice a rough > > > > idle most of the time. It's also possible that the engine is running > > > > too rich (or as others have suggested, too lean) at highway > > > > speeds due to a leaky or clogged carb. You might be able to tell > > > > which way it's running by examining the spark plugs. If it's too rich > > > > one or more will be black and sooty. If too lean, they'll be really, > > > > really clean & white. Normally, they have slight tan deposits on > > > > the ceramic part. Check the plug wires on a dark night. When you > > > > put your hands near the wires, there should be no arcing or > > > > glowing spots. If there is, you need new wires. > > > > > > > > Does the air injection on this car come from an air pump? On some > > > > engines, the air injection is just sucked in thru a filter without a > > > > pump. Follow the hoses from that secondary air control valve to > > > > see where it comes from. If it's a pump, try removing the belt or > > > > plugging the hose. If you remove the air source, the unburned gas > > > > may just go out the back pipe instead of afterburning in the manifold. > > > > > > > > If you think it's the carb, you can try getting a carb rebuild kit and > > > have > > > > a go at taking it apart, cleaning it and putting things back together. > > > > You may discover a partially clogged jet or air bleed. > > > > > > > > By the way, I find that carb cleaner works a lot better than brake > > > > cleaner on oily deposits. (Carb cleaner dissolves paint, brake cleaner > > > > generally doesn't, and carb cleaner is a lot cheaper.) > > > > > > > > Do you know what the idle is on this engine right now? It should be > > > > around 700-800, and opening the EGR by hand should result in more > > > > than a slight decrease in idle speed. Is the idle cranked up to > > 1100-1300 > > > > to compensate for really bad performance at normal idle? If you want > > > > to see the difference, try running the engine with the EGR valve > > removed. > > > > It shouldn't run very well at all. If it does, spray carb cleaner into > > the > > > > passages that you reamed out, a little at a time, until it breaks thru > > > > the remaining blockage. > > > > > > > > I hope one of these suggestions works. I'm also assuming that when you > > > > took the head off, you put the head gasket back on with the correct > side > > > > up. I'm also assuming that all the vacuum and vapor hoses are back > where > > > > they should be. I remember reading a post here a few years ago where > > > > someone switched a vapor return hose with a vacuum hose, and the > engine > > > > wouldn't run because of all of the extra gas being sucked in. > > > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message > > > > news:vrgemnfl117rd0@corp.supernews.com... > > > > > Hi Bob > > > > > I made a mistake wen I was saying that the ERG was on the exhaust > > > > manifold, > > > > > it's on the intake manifold. I was talking about the wrong part as I > > > > thought > > > > > the secondary air control valve was the ERG. Anyhoo I did as you > > > > susggested, > > > > > except I didin't decarbonize the head. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I took off the ERG and inspected it. The valve was gummed up with > oil > > > > > sludge, cleaned it up (break cleaner) and made a new gasket for it. > > When > > > > > depressing the diaphragm, the valve wasn't sticking and was able to > > > swish > > > > > break cleaner back and forth between the two openings for recycled > > > > exhaust. > > > > > > > > > > I reamed out the two ERG passages (on intake manifold) with a used > > > > > speedometer cable and a power drill. I was able to feed about 2 and > a > > > half > > > > > feet into each passage. One of the passages that goes towards the > > carb, > > > > was > > > > > clogged with oily sludge, but I was able to clean it and spray some > > > break > > > > > cleaner into it to further soften up the sludge. Put the whole thing > > > back > > > > > together, ran the car down the road for 20 min and I have the same > > > > problem, > > > > > red hot exhaust manifold. With the engine at operating temp I revved > > the > > > > > engine, the ERG diaphragm opens all the way (the back of the ERG is > > open > > > > to > > > > > see the diaphragm) pushed on the diaphragm with my finger, the idle > > > > changes > > > > > slightly. So it appears as though the ERG is operating as it should. > > Any > > > > > other suggestions? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message > > > > > news:boj6gs$9a9$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com... > > > > > > The EGR valve may be opening (i.e., the rubber diaphragm is > intact), > > > > > > but the EGR passage thru the intake manifold back to the head may > > > > > > be all clogged up with carbon, especially after 17 years. Open the > > > > > > valve by hand or with a vacuum pump while the engine is idling, > and > > > > > > see if it stalls (it should). > > > > > > > > > > > > The purpose of exhaust gas recirculation is to lower the temps in > > the > > > > > > combustion chamber a couple of hundred degrees to reduce the > > > > > > formation of NOx. As a side effect, it should also drop the temp > > > > > > of the exhaust manifold. > > > > > > > > > > > > If it's clogged, unbolt the valve and clean it out with a > > screwdriver. > > > > > > Clean the passages as best you can with a long thin screwdriver > > > > > > or something like an old speedometer cable attached to a > > > > > > variable-speed drill. > > > > > > > > > > > > BTW, have you ever tried decarbonizing the head by spraying water > > > > > > into the carb while the engine is at fast idle? Use something like > a > > > > > > spray cleaner bottle, don't pour water by hand into the carb or > > you'll > > > > > > break a piston or rod due to hydraulic lockup. This should lower > the > > > > > > compression back to normal if it's on the high side due to carbon > > > > > > build-up. You'll get lots of black carbon out the tailpipe, but > > > > eventually > > > > > > it will subside when it's all cleaned up, leaving you with a > little > > > > white > > > > > > steam. > > > > > > > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message > > > > > > news:vqmjjkqu58hj7c@corp.supernews.com... > > > > > > > The ERG valve is opening. The canister did have a cat in it and > it > > > was > > > > > > > clogged, when I removed it, the temp of the exhaust manifold > went > > > down > > > > > > > (darker red colour) one thing I did notice is that the coolant > > temp > > > > went > > > > > > > down, as though the car is running a little cooler. I suspect > that > > > > this > > > > > is > > > > > > > because the exhaust is taking the heat instead of the head. Now > > why > > > is > > > > > > this > > > > > > > happening, that's the question!!! It's not a warn crankshaft > > > sprocket > > > > as > > > > > > > suggested in the previous post, as I have already taken the > > spocket > > > > > > off...it > > > > > > > was tough to get off and there is no play, so I guess it's not > > worn. > > > > Any > > > > > > > other suggestion? > > > > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > > > > Mike : ) > > > > > > > "Never pet a burning dog!" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message > > > > > > > news:bof9v1$r9i$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message > > > > > > > > news:vqg5dmtaag32b1@corp.supernews.com... > > > > > > > > > Hi PPL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have a 86 Hyundai Excell, the ehaust monifold gets yellow > > hot > > > > and > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > visable during daylight hours. The problem only happens when > > the > > > > car > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > driven > > > > > > > > > down the highway for 10 min or so. The first thing I > suspected > > > was > > > > a > > > > > > > > clogged > > > > > > > > > catalytic converter since it is bolted to the exhaust > > monifold. > > > > > Ripped > > > > > > > out > > > > > > > > > the catalytic converter, now the monifold is only red hot. > The > > > car > > > > > was > > > > > > > > > running rough > > > > > > > > > so I suspected a timing problem. I reset the crankshaft and > > > > > camshaft > > > > > > > > > timing, set the > > > > > > > > > distributor timing to 4 degrees BTDC (as per specs), the car > > > idles > > > > > > > better > > > > > > > > > now but the > > > > > > > > > monifold is still red hot. Tried a different pair of plugs, > > no > > > > go. > > > > > > Made > > > > > > > > > sure the choke was opening, > > > > > > > > > it's fine, ERG opens fine. Checked all vacume lines and > > replaced > > > > the > > > > > > > ones > > > > > > > > > that were broken. Since I recently replaced the head gasket, > I > > > > > > retorqued > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > head, no go. Made sure the valve lash was correct (suspected > > > that > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > exhaust valves weren't closing all the way), no go. Replaced > > the > > > > > > timing > > > > > > > > > belt, no go. If I take off timing belt, when the crankshaft > > and > > > > > > camshaft > > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > dead on the timing marks, and turn the crankshaft back > > (counter > > > > > > > clockwise) > > > > > > > > > two teeth on the timing belt, the exhaust manifold doesn't > get > > > red > > > > > hot > > > > > > > at > > > > > > > > > all and the car has lots more power. The only problem is > that > > > the > > > > > idel > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > little high, and the timing range is off. What I mean by > > timing > > > > > range > > > > > > > is: > > > > > > > > > the whole range adjusting the distributor timing is 30 > degrees > > > > BTDC > > > > > to > > > > > > > > TDC, > > > > > > > > > none for ATDC. I's really stange that I would have to move > the > > > > > > > crankshaft > > > > > > > > > back two teeth to fix the problem, all logic says that the > > > > > crankshaft > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > camshaft should be set to thier respective timing marks. > Does > > > > > anybody > > > > > > > any > > > > > > > > > any advice as I'm still dealing with this problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One possibility is a clogged or defective EGR valve. If you > open > > > the > > > > > > valve > > > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > hand when it's cool it should remain open when you cover the > > > vacuum > > > > > > nipple > > > > > > > > with a spare finger. If you open the valve by hand with the > > engine > > > > > > running > > > > > > > > (before it gets hot), the idle should drop and/or > stumble/stall. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Does this engine have some sort of air injection into the > > exhaust > > > > > > manifold > > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > well as into the cat? If so, the diverter valve may be shot > and > > > it's > > > > > > > pumping > > > > > > > > air into the manifold all the time. If your exhaust is too > rich > > > > > > (misfire), > > > > > > > > this would > > > > > > > > cause the glowing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I suspect that your cat was an empty canister when you removed > > it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > |
Re: Red Hot Exhaust Manifold
Yeah. It doesn't take much spark to keep a car going at highway
speed. And you don't have much in the way of hills out there either. So 12% advance is enough to keep the engine running at fairly low rpms, say 2000-2500 at 80kph in high gear. But I bet your acceleration really sucks. And even though the engine is running, there's a LOT of unburned HC's going out the exhaust and heating up your manifold. You still might want to try blocking off the secondary air hose before you fix this problem just to see if the glowing stops. The return springs in the distributor are probably broken or streched out (just like that throttle return spring), so the dist is stuck at full mechanical advance and you've compensated for it. But you also have vacuum advance when the throttle is open, and that plus the 12% keeps things running, sort of, on the highway. If the mechanical advance actually worked, your engine would be knocking (pinging) like crazy on regular gas. A brand new distributor assembly is $340 from Hyundai, or a lot less used from a junkyard. Part number is 27100-21430 for a manual, and 27100-21440 for an automatic tranny. Any dist from a carburated Excel from 86 and later will work if it has the same tranny as yours. (Timing advance curves differ slightly between the two.) It's a shame, but there was a guy on Ebay trying to get rid of a couple of these Excel distributors a few months ago for next to nothing. I checked, but there's nothing out there right now or in the last 30 days (just a couple of different auctions for a 91 Scoupe dist, not compatible). I wouldn't bother with the EGR passage right now. Find a used distributor first. Bob "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message news:vrl4pm8t4ijfe2@corp.supernews.com... > Hey Bob, me thinks I got it figured out. > I think the whole problem is timing advance. Remember I was saying that I > have to set the crankshaft back two teeth to eliminate the glowing red > exhaust manifold problem. Currently I've left the crankshaft at a half of a > tooth backwards (as close to timing mark as I can) and the distributor > timing has been left at 10% BTDC (book says 4%) > If I change the distributor timing to 4% BTDC, the problem gets worse and > the car has hardly any power on the highway. Checked the spark plugs and now > they are black. Changed the distributor to 12% BTDC, plugs are starting to > go to a dark tan colour. I'm thinking that the timing isn't advancing enough > (when driving down the highway) because, either shifting the crankshaft back > two teeth or, with the crankshaft back half a tooth, advancing the > distributor timing to 12% BTDC, has the same effect. I checked the > distributor timing, with a timing light (12%BTDC) and revved the engine, the > timing doesn't seem to move much from the timing mark IE: the timing blur on > the crankshaft pulley doesn't go advance to say 20% BTDC > Now here is where things don't make sense, how can I wipp down the road at > 140Kph if the timing isn't advancing? Maybe it's because I've set the timing > to 12% BTDC???? > Any suggestions??? > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message > news:vrkjsm843rmua1@corp.supernews.com... > > Yep that is true with the head gasket, however for the after market head > > gasket that I bought, it will fit on only one way.. The coolant circulates > > IE: I have heat inside of the car and there I get oil to the head.It might > > be possiable that I might have some how put the head gasket on backwards > as > > anything is possiable, 99% I didn't. The idle is a tad high, it's because > I > > have a weak return spring for the Primary Throttle, I've shorthened the > > spring (more springy : )) however the idle sometimes is a little high. > > Anyhoo I think I'm going to take the carb and intake manifold off today, > and > > try reaming out the ERG passages in the head and intake manifold. If I > don't > > find some kind of restriction then I'll take off the head and see where > I'm > > at from there. Ohh ya one thing to mention, the head isn't as hot as it's > > been before, but that might be because it's fall here is Saskatchewan, > > burrrrr getting chilly outside. > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message > > news:bpd6a9$8r9$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com... > > > The thing with most head gaskets is that on many engines, you > > > *can* put them on upside down (flipped left to right) and the bolt > > > holes still line up, but the coolant passages don't, so you have > > > partially blocked passages and an overheated head. > > > > > > The idle is a bit high (s.b. 750±100) . Does it refuse to idle at > > > lower speeds? > > > > > > I couldn't find the online manual for your Excel at > > > www.hmaservice.com/webtech , the closest I could get is 1988. > > > Do you have a feedback carb and an O2 sensor? If you do and > > > your O2 sensor is dead, the ECU might think that it needs to > > > increase the O2 by leaning out the mixture as much as it can, > > > but not so much that you'd notice a performance problem at > > > highway speeds. > > > > > > Looking at the 1988 manual, your secondary air control valve is > > > supposed to let air into the exhaust manfold when the engine is > > > warming up, then it switches to sending air downstream to the > > > 2nd cat under the car. If this valve is burnt out or always open, > > > air would always be going into the manifold and causing the > > > red-hot condition. Try plugging the hose from the valve to the > > > manifold and see if things improve. There should also be some > > > sort of check valve where the hose meets the manifold to > > > prevent hot exhaust from going back thru the hose and burning > > > up the valve. > > > > > > The cliff is starting to sound much better. > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message > > > news:vrgsejs3al6816@corp.supernews.com... > > > > Yeppers I'm stumped to > > > > Ya I had a Cavalier with a bad cat, the carpet caught on fire LOL > > > > The plugs are a tan colour, so the mixture seems to be correct. The > > spark > > > > plug wires are new and not arcing. There is no air injection system > (air > > > jet > > > > valve beside intake valve) on the 86 model. The car is idling fine so > > I'll > > > > assume for now the carb is ok. > > > > what else...ummm let's see...oh ya, the idle is around 900 RPM when > the > > > car > > > > is at operating temp. I'll remove the ERG and see if the car runs > like > > > > > > > to verify that the ERG passage has been cleared. If not then I'll do > as > > > you > > > > suggested and try cleaning the passage again. The head gasket wasn't > put > > > on > > > > back wards as there is only one way to align the bolt holes. If I put > > the > > > > head gasket was on backwards, how would that affect the ERG passage? I > > was > > > > under the assumption that the ERG passage went from the intake > manifold > > > > through the head and not the block. As I mentioned I was able to feed > 2 > > > feet > > > > of the speedometer cable through both passages. Do you think that is > far > > > > enough? When ever I took a vacuum line off, I made sure that it I put > it > > > > back in the correct place, but I'll double check that tomorrow. I was > > also > > > > thinking that, I could take off the intake manifold, that would give > me > > a > > > > better view of the ERG passages and do some extra cleaning if nessary. > > > > > > > > Thanks for the suggestions, if this doesn't fix the problem, then I > > think > > > > I'm going to drive the car off of a cliff. : ( > > > > Bye for now > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message > > > > news:bp9ks0$o5f$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com... > > > > > I'm stumped. On other cars (not Hyundai), I've seen red-hot > > > > > catalytic converters when there's a lot of unburned gas due to > > > > > bad spark plugs or wires. In this case, you'd notice a rough > > > > > idle most of the time. It's also possible that the engine is running > > > > > too rich (or as others have suggested, too lean) at highway > > > > > speeds due to a leaky or clogged carb. You might be able to tell > > > > > which way it's running by examining the spark plugs. If it's too > rich > > > > > one or more will be black and sooty. If too lean, they'll be really, > > > > > really clean & white. Normally, they have slight tan deposits on > > > > > the ceramic part. Check the plug wires on a dark night. When you > > > > > put your hands near the wires, there should be no arcing or > > > > > glowing spots. If there is, you need new wires. > > > > > > > > > > Does the air injection on this car come from an air pump? On some > > > > > engines, the air injection is just sucked in thru a filter without a > > > > > pump. Follow the hoses from that secondary air control valve to > > > > > see where it comes from. If it's a pump, try removing the belt or > > > > > plugging the hose. If you remove the air source, the unburned gas > > > > > may just go out the back pipe instead of afterburning in the > manifold. > > > > > > > > > > If you think it's the carb, you can try getting a carb rebuild kit > and > > > > have > > > > > a go at taking it apart, cleaning it and putting things back > together. > > > > > You may discover a partially clogged jet or air bleed. > > > > > > > > > > By the way, I find that carb cleaner works a lot better than brake > > > > > cleaner on oily deposits. (Carb cleaner dissolves paint, brake > cleaner > > > > > generally doesn't, and carb cleaner is a lot cheaper.) > > > > > > > > > > Do you know what the idle is on this engine right now? It should be > > > > > around 700-800, and opening the EGR by hand should result in more > > > > > than a slight decrease in idle speed. Is the idle cranked up to > > > 1100-1300 > > > > > to compensate for really bad performance at normal idle? If you want > > > > > to see the difference, try running the engine with the EGR valve > > > removed. > > > > > It shouldn't run very well at all. If it does, spray carb cleaner > into > > > the > > > > > passages that you reamed out, a litle at a time, until it breaks > thru > > > > > the remaining blockage. > > > > > > > > > > I hope one of these suggestions works. I'm also assuming that when > you > > > > > took the head off, you put the head gasket back on with the correct > > side > > > > > up. I'm also assuming that all the vacuum and vapor hoses are back > > where > > > > > they should be. I remember reading a post here a few years ago where > > > > > someone switched a vapor return hose with a vacuum hose, and the > > engine > > > > > wouldn't run because of all of the extra gas being sucked in. > > > > > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message > > > > > news:vrgemnfl117rd0@corp.supernews.com... > > > > > > Hi Bob > > > > > > I made a mistake when I was saying that the ERG was on the exhaust > > > > > manifold, > > > > > > it's on the intake manifold. I was talking about the wrong part as > I > > > > > thought > > > > > > the secondary air control valve was the ERG. Anyhoo I did as you > > > > > susggested, > > > > > > except I didin't decarbonize the head. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I took off the ERG and inspected it. The valve was gummed up with > > oil > > > > > > sludge, cleaned it up (break cleaner) and made a new gasket for > it. > > > When > > > > > > depressing the diaphragm, the valve wasn't sticking and was able > to > > > > swish > > > > > > break cleaner back and forth between the two openings for recycled > > > > > exhaust. > > > > > > > > > > > > I reamed out the two ERG passages (on intake manifold) with a used > > > > > > speedometer cable and a power drill. I was able to feed about 2 > and > > a > > > > half > > > > > > feet into each passage. One of the passages that goes towards the > > > carb, > > > > > was > > > > > > clogged with oily sludge, but I was able to clean it and spray > some > > > > break > > > > > > cleaner into it to further soften up the sludge. Put the whole > thing > > > > back > > > > > > together, ran the car down the road for 20 min and I have the same > > > > > problem, > > > > > > red hot exhaust manifold. With the engine at operating temp I > revved > > > the > > > > > > engine, the ERG diaphragm opens all the way (the back of the ERG > is > > > open > > > > > to > > > > > > see the diaphragm) pushed on the diaphragm with my finger, the > idle > > > > > changes > > > > > > slightly. So it appears as though the ERG is operating as it > should. > > > Any > > > > > > other suggestions? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message > > > > > > news:boj6gs$9a9$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com... > > > > > > > The EGR valve may be opening (i.e., the rubber diaphragm is > > intact), > > > > > > > but the EGR passage thru the intake manifold back to the head > may > > > > > > > be all clogged up with carbon, especially after 17 years. Open > the > > > > > > > valve by hand or with a vacuum pump while the engine is idling, > > and > > > > > > > see if it stalls (it should). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The purpose of exhaust gas recirculation is to lower the temps > in > > > the > > > > > > > combustion chamber a couple of hundred degrees to reduce the > > > > > > > formation of NOx. As a side effect, it should also drop the temp > > > > > > > of the exhaust manifold. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If it's clogged, unbolt the valve and clean it out with a > > > screwdriver. > > > > > > > Clean the passages as best you can with a long thin screwdriver > > > > > > > or something like an old speedometer cable attached to a > > > > > > > variable-speed drill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BTW, have you ever tried decarbonizing the head by spraying > water > > > > > > > into the carb while the engine is at fast idle? Use something > like > > a > > > > > > > spray cleaner bottle, don't pour water by hand into the carb or > > > you'll > > > > > > > break a piston or rod due to hydraulic lockup. This should lower > > the > > > > > > > compression back to normal if it's on the high side due to > carbon > > > > > > > build-up. You'll get lots of black carbon out the tailpipe, but > > > > > eventually > > > > > > > it will subside when it's all cleaned up, leaving you with a > > little > > > > > white > > > > > > > steam. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message > > > > > > > news:vqmjjkqu58hj7c@corp.supernews.com... > > > > > > > > The ERG valve is opening. The canister did have a cat in it > and > > it > > > > was > > > > > > > > clogged, when I removed it, the temp of the exhaust manifold > > went > > > > down > > > > > > > > (darker red colour) one thing I did notice is that the coolant > > > temp > > > > > went > > > > > > > > down, as though the car is running a little cooler. I suspect > > that > > > > > this > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > because the exhaust is taking the heat instead of the head. > Now > > > why > > > > is > > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > happening, that's the question!!! It's not a warn crankshaft > > > > sprocket > > > > > as > > > > > > > > suggested in the previous post, as I have already taken the > > > spocket > > > > > > > off...it > > > > > > > > was tough to get off and there is no play, so I guess it's not > > > worn. > > > > > Any > > > > > > > > other suggestion? > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > > > > > Mike : ) > > > > > > > > "Never pet a burning dog!" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message > > > > > > > > news:bof9v1$r9i$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message > > > > > > > > > news:vqg5dmtaag32b1@corp.supernews.com... > > > > > > > > > > Hi PPL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have a 86 Hyundai Excell, the ehaust monifold gets > yellow > > > hot > > > > > and > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > visable during daylight hours. The problem only happens > when > > > the > > > > > car > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > driven > > > > > > > > > > down the highway for 10 min or so. The first thing I > > suspected > > > > was > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > clogged > > > > > > > > > > catalytic converter since it is bolted to the exhaust > > > monifold. > > > > > > Ripped > > > > > > > > out > > > > > > > > > > the catalytic converter, now the monifold is only red hot. > > The > > > > car > > > > > > was > > > > > > > > > > running rough > > > > > > > > > > so I suspected a timing problem. I reset the crankshaft > and > > > > > > camshaft > > > > > > > > > > timing, set the > > > > > > > > > > distributor timing to 4 degrees BTDC (as per specs), the > car > > > > idles > > > > > > > > better > > > > > > > > > > now but the > > > > > > > > > > monifold is still red hot. Tried a different pair of > plugs, > > > no > > > > > go. > > > > > > > Made > > > > > > > > > > sure the choke was opening, > > > > > > > > > > it's fine, ERG opens fine. Checked all vacume lines and > > > replaced > > > > > the > > > > > > > > ones > > > > > > > > > > that were broken. Since I recently replaced the head > gasket, > > I > > > > > > > retorqued > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > head, no go. Made sure the valve lash was correct > (suspected > > > > that > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > exhaust valves weren't closing all the way), no go. > Replaced > > > the > > > > > > > timing > > > > > > > > > > belt, no go. If I take off timing belt, when the > crankshaft > > > and > > > > > > > camshaft > > > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > dead on the timing marks, and turn the crankshaft back > > > (counter > > > > > > > > clockwise) > > > > > > > > > > two teeth on the timing belt, the exhaust manifold doesn't > > get > > > > red > > > > > > hot > > > > > > > > at > > > > > > > > > > all and the car has lots more power. The only problem is > > that > > > > the > > > > > > idel > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > > little high, and the timing range is off. What I mean by > > > timing > > > > > > range > > > > > > > > is: > > > > > > > > > > the whole range adjusting the distributor timing is 30 > > degrees > > > > > BTDC > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > TDC, > > > > > > > > > > none for ATDC. I's really stange that I would have to move > > > the > > > > > > > > crankshaft > > > > > > > > > > back two teeth to fix the problem, all logic says that the > > > > > > crankshaft > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > camshaft should be set to thier respective timing marks. > > Does > > > > > > anybody > > > > > > > > any > > > > > > > > > > any advice as I'm still dealing with this problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One possibility is a clogged or defective EGR valve. If you > > open > > > > the > > > > > > > valve > > > > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > > hand when it's cool it should remain open when you cover the > > > > vacuum > > > > > > > nipple > > > > > > > > > with a spare finger. If you open the valve by hand with the > > > engine > > > > > > > running > > > > > > > > > (before it gets hot), the idle should drop and/or > > stumble/stall. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Does this engine have some sort of air injection into the > > > exhaust > > > > > > > manifold > > > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > > well as into the cat? If so, the diverter valve may be shot > > and > > > > it's > > > > > > > > pumping > > > > > > > > > air into the manifold all the time. If your exhaust is too > > rich > > > > > > > (misfire), > > > > > > > > > this would > > > > > > > > > cause the glowing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I suspect that your cat was an empty canister when you > removed > > > it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > |
Re: Red Hot Exhaust Manifold
Lots of hills here Bob, My girlfriend is a valley girl : )
Saskatchewan is hilly (most of it) there is a ski hill down the road from us. Now, Manitoba is flat, watch your dog run away for a week. : ) Actually the car has good acceleration all the way up to 130Kph I'll try blocking the secondary air control valve, never thought to try that. I'm not sure I agree that the car would be pinging with the distributor set to 12% BTDC as most cars are set to 10% BTDC, I don't trust the Haynes manual, nor the emissions sticker (4% BTDC) on the underside of the hood, however I do agree that I might have a distributor problem. I'll check that out tomorrow. One thing to note: I tried 4% BTDC and the car was backfiring, asuming (crankshaft is at it's respective timing mark) so the distributor could be the problem. One thing I tried tonight was, have the GF revv the car to 2,500 RPM and observ the ERG valve, it opens up all the way when the car is stone cold. The Haynes manual says that the ERG shouldn't open (up to 2,500RPM cold engine) when the engine is cold, if, it does, then the thermo valve has to be replaced. The ERG vacuum is controled by the thermo valve, engine heats up and the thermo valve applies vacuum to the ERG if the temp is hot enough (185degrees), and engine is revved past 2,500 RPM. The ERG does open up all the way when the engine is warm/hot. Also the manual says that the ERG valve shouldn't open at full throttle if the engine is hot. The ERG opens up fully when I revv the engine to full throttle (hot or cold), but not at idle. I'm thinking that the problem may be the ERG opening at the wrong times. Another thing I tried tonight was, drive the car down the highway really fast, checked the exhaust manifold, red hot, drove back home in over drive, at low RPM (2,500RPM) around 80Kph for about 20 min. Checked the manifold,,,,wahoooo!!! it doesn't look like a bright red cherry tomato. LOL So, the problem is only occuring at 3/4 and full throttle. I'll double check the routing of the vacume hoses, if no go, then check the distributor and or find a used one, if no go, order a thermo valve. Unfortunately, the dammmm Haynes manual only shows the ERG diagram for a 88 and up, I'll have to go by that diagram. Thanks for the help, at least I have a troubleshooting path to follow now. I'll try your suggestions tomorrow and get back to you. At least I don't feel like driving the car off of a cliff now! "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message news:bpeu90$h9p$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com... > Yeah. It doesn't take much spark to keep a car going at highway > speed. And you don't have much in the way of hills out there either. > So 12% advance is enough to keep the engine running at fairly > low rpms, say 2000-2500 at 80kph in high gear. But I bet your > acceleration really sucks. > > And even though the engine is running, there's a LOT of unburned > HC's going out the exhaust and heating up your manifold. > You still might want to try blocking off the secondary air hose before > you fix this problem just to see if the glowing stops. > > The return springs in the distributor are probably broken or > streched out (just like that throttle return spring), so the dist > is stuck at full mechanical advance and you've compensated for > it. But you also have vacuum advance when the throttle is open, > and that plus the 12% keeps things running, sort of, on the highway. > If the mechanical advance actually worked, your engine would be > knocking (pinging) like crazy on regular gas. > > A brand new distributor assembly is $340 from Hyundai, or a lot > less used from a junkyard. Part number is 27100-21430 for a > manual, and 27100-21440 for an automatic tranny. Any dist from > a carburated Excel from 86 and later will work if it has the same > tranny as yours. (Timing advance curves differ slightly between > the two.) It's a shame, but there was a guy on Ebay trying to > get rid of a couple of these Excel distributors a few months ago > for next to nothing. I checked, but there's nothing out there right > now or in the last 30 days (just a couple of different auctions for > a 91 Scoupe dist, not compatible). > > I wouldn't bother with the EGR passage right now. Find a > used distributor first. > > Bob > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message > news:vrl4pm8t4ijfe2@corp.supernews.com... > > Hey Bob, me thinks I got it figured out. > > I think the whole problem is timing advance. Remember I was saying that I > > have to set the crankshaft back two teeth to eliminate the glowing red > > exhaust manifold problem. Currently I've left the crankshaft at a half of > a > > tooth backwards (as close to timing mark as I can) and the distributor > > timing has been left at 10% BTDC (book says 4%) > > If I change the distributor timing to 4% BTDC, the problem gets worse and > > the car has hardly any power on the highway. Checked the spark plugs and > now > > they are black. Changed the distributor to 12% BTDC, plugs are starting to > > go to a dark tan colour. I'm thinking that the timing isn't advancing > enough > > (when driving down the highway) because, either shifting the crankshaft > back > > two teeth or, with the crankshaft back half a tooth, advancing the > > distributor timing to 12% BTDC, has the same effect. I checked the > > distributor timing, with a timing light (12%BTDC) and revved the engine, > the > > timing doesn't seem to move much from the timing mark IE: the timing blur > on > > the crankshaft pulley doesn't go advance to say 20% BTDC > > Now here is where things don't make sense, how can I wipp down the road at > > 140Kph if the timing isn't advancing? Maybe it's because I've set the > timing > > to 12% BTDC???? > > Any suggestions??? > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message > > news:vrkjsm843rmua1@corp.supernews.com... > > > Yep that is true with the head gasket, however for the after market head > > > gasket that I bought, it will fit on only one way.. The coolant > circulates > > > IE: I have heat inside of the car and there I get oil to the head.It > might > > > be possiable that I might have some how put the head gasket on backwards > > as > > > anything is possiable, 99% I didn't. The idle is a tad high, it's > because > > I > > > have a weak return spring for the Primary Throttle, I've shorthened the > > > spring (more springy : )) however the idle sometimes is a little high. > > > Anyhoo I think I'm going to take the carb and intake manifold off today, > > and > > > try reaming out the ERG passages in the head and intake manifold. If I > > don't > > > find some kind of restriction then I'll take off the head and see where > > I'm > > > at from there. Ohh ya one thing to mention, the head isn't as hot as > it's > > > been before, but that might be because it's fall here is Saskatchewan, > > > burrrrr getting chilly outside. > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message > > > news:bpd6a9$8r9$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com... > > > > The thing with most head gaskets is that on many engines, you > > > > *can* put them on upside down (flipped left to right) and the bolt > > > > holes still line up, but the coolant passages don't, so you have > > > > partially blocked passages and an overheated head. > > > > > > > > The idle is a bit high (s.b. 750±100) . Does it refuse to idle at > > > > lower speeds? > > > > > > > > I couldn't find the online manual for your Excel at > > > > www.hmaservice.com/webtech , the closest I could get is 1988. > > > > Do you have a feedback carb and an O2 sensor? If you do and > > > > your O2 sensor is dead, the ECU might think that it needs to > > > > increase the O2 by leaning out the mixture as much as it can, > > > > but not so much that you'd notice a performance problem at > > > > highway speeds. > > > > > > > > Looking at the 1988 manual, your secondary air control valve is > > > > supposed to let air into the exhaust manfold when the engine is > > > > warming up, then it switches to sending air downstream to the > > > > 2nd cat under the car. If this valve is burnt out or always open, > > > > air would always be going into the manifold and causing the > > > > red-hot condition. Try plugging the hose from the valve to the > > > > manifold and see if things improve. There should also be some > > > > sort of check valve where the hose meets the manifold to > > > > prevent hot exhaust from going back thru the hose and burning > > > > up the valve. > > > > > > > > The cliff is starting to sound much better. > > > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message > > > > news:vrgsejs3al6816@corp.supernews.com... > > > > > Yeppers I'm stumped to > > > > > Ya I had a Cavalier with a bad cat, the carpet caught on fire LOL > > > > > The plugs are a tan colour, so the mixture seems to be correct. The > > > spark > > > > > plug wires are new and not arcing. There is no air injection system > > (air > > > > jet > > > > > valve beside intake valve) on the 86 model. The car is idling fine > so > > > I'll > > > > > assume for now the carb is ok. > > > > > what else...ummm let's see...oh ya, the idle is around 900 RPM when > > the > > > > car > > > > > is at operating temp. I'll remove the ERG and see if the car runs > > like > > > > > > > > > to verify that the ERG passage has been cleared. If not then I'll do > > as > > > > you > > > > > suggested and try cleaning the passage again. The head gasket wasn't > > put > > > > on > > > > > back wards as there is only one way to align the bolt holes. If I > put > > > the > > > > > head gasket was on backwards, how would that affect the ERG passage? > I > > > was > > > > > under the assumption that the ERG passage went from the intake > > manifold > > > > > through the head and not the block. As I mentioned I was able to > feed > > 2 > > > > feet > > > > > of the speedometer cable through both passages. Do you think that is > > far > > > > > enough? When ever I took a vacuum line off, I made sure that it I > put > > it > > > > > back in the correct place, but I'll double check that tomorrow. I > was > > > also > > > > > thinking that, I could take off the intake manifold, that would give > > me > > > a > > > > > better view of the ERG passages and do some extra cleaning if > nessary. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the suggestions, if this doesn't fix the problem, then I > > > think > > > > > I'm going to drive the car off of a cliff. : ( > > > > > Bye for now > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message > > > > > news:bp9ks0$o5f$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com... > > > > > > I'm stumped. On other cars (not Hyundai), I've seen red-hot > > > > > > catalytic converters when there's a lot of unburned gas due to > > > > > > bad spark plugs or wires. In this case, you'd notice a rough > > > > > > idle most of the time. It's also possible that the engine is > running > > > > > > too rich (or as others have suggested, too lean) at highway > > > > > > speeds due to a leaky or clogged carb. You might be able to tell > > > > > > which way it's running by examining the spark plugs. If it's too > > rich > > > > > > one or more will be black and sooty. If too lean, they'll be > really, > > > > > > really clean & white. Normally, they have slight tan deposits on > > > > > > the ceramic part. Check the plug wires on a dark night. When you > > > > > > put your hands near the wires, there should be no arcing or > > > > > > glowing spots. If there is, you need new wires. > > > > > > > > > > > > Does the air injection on this car come from an air pump? On some > > > > > > engines, the air injection is just sucked in thru a filter without > a > > > > > > pump. Follow the hoses from that secondary air control valve to > > > > > > see where it comes from. If it's a pump, try removing the belt or > > > > > > plugging the hose. If you remove the air source, the unburned gas > > > > > > may just go out the ack pipe instead of afterburning in the > > manifold. > > > > > > > > > > > > If you think it's the carb, you can try getting a carb rebuild kit > > and > > > > > have > > > > > > a go at taking it apart, cleaning it and putting things back > > together. > > > > > > You may discover a partially clogged jet or air bleed. > > > > > > > > > > > > By the way, I find that carb cleaner works a lot better than brake > > > > > > cleaner on oily deposits. (Carb cleaner dissolves paint, brake > > cleaner > > > > > > generally doesn't, and carb cleaner is a lot cheaper.) > > > > > > > > > > > > Do you know what the idle is on this engine right now? It should > be > > > > > > around 700-800, and opening the EGR by hand should result in more > > > > > > than a slight decrease in idle speed. Is the idle cranked up to > > > > 1100-1300 > > > > > > to compensate for really bad performance at normal idle? If you > want > > > > > > to see the difference, try running the engine with the EGR valve > > > > removed. > > > > > > It shouldn't run very well at all. If it does, spray carb cleaner > > into > > > > the > > > > > > passages that you reamed out, a little at a time, until it breaks > > thru > > > > > > the remaining blockage. > > > > > > > > > > > > I hope one of these suggestions works. I'm also assuming that when > > you > > > > > > took the head off, you put the head gasket back on with the > correct > > > side > > > > > > up. I'm also assuming that all the vacuum and vapor hoses are back > > > where > > > > > > they should be. I remember reading a post here a few years ago > where > > > > > > someone switched a vapor return hose with a vacuum hose, and the > > > engine > > > > > > wouldn't run because of all of the extra gas being sucked in. > > > > > > > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message > > > > > > news:vrgemnfl117rd0@corp.supernews.com... > > > > > > > Hi Bob > > > > > > > I made a mistake when I was saying that the ERG was on the > exhaust > > > > > > manifold, > > > > > > > it's on the intake manifold. I was talking about the wrong part > as > > I > > > > > > thought > > > > > > > the secondary air control valve was the ERG. Anyhoo I did as you > > > > > > susggested, > > > > > > > except I didin't decarbonize the head. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I took off the ERG and inspected it. The valve was gummed up > with > > > oil > > > > > > > sludge, cleaned it up (break cleaner) and made a new gasket for > > it. > > > > When > > > > > > > depressing the diaphragm, the valve wasn't sticking and was able > > to > > > > > swish > > > > > > > break cleaner back and forth between the two openings for > recycled > > > > > > exhaust. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I reamed out the two ERG passages (on intake manifold) with a > used > > > > > > > speedometer cable and a power drill. I was able to feed about 2 > > and > > > a > > > > > half > > > > > > > feet into each passage. One of the passages that goes towards > the > > > > carb, > > > > > > was > > > > > > > clogged with oily sludge, but I was able to clean it and spray > > some > > > > > break > > > > > > > cleaner into it to further soften up the sludge. Put the whole > > thing > > > > > back > > > > > > > together, ran the car down the road for 20 min and I have the > same > > > > > > problem, > > > > > > > red hot exhaust manifold. With the engine at operating temp I > > revved > > > > the > > > > > > > engine, the ERG diaphragm opens all the way (the back of the ERG > > is > > > > open > > > > > > to > > > > > > > see the diaphragm) pushed on the diaphragm with my finger, the > > idle > > > > > > changes > > > > > > > slightly. So it appears as though the ERG is operating as it > > should. > > > > Any > > > > > > > other suggestions? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message > > > > > > > news:boj6gs$9a9$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com... > > > > > > > > The EGR valve may be opening (i.e., the rubber diaphragm is > > > intact), > > > > > > > > but the EGR passage thru the intake manifold back to the head > > may > > > > > > > > be all clogged up with carbon, especially after 17 years. Open > > the > > > > > > > > valve by hand or with a vacuum pump while the engine is > idling, > > > and > > > > > > > > see if it stalls (it should). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The purpose of exhaust gas recirculation is to lower the temps > > in > > > > the > > > > > > > > combustion chamber a couple of hundred degrees to reduce the > > > > > > > > formation of NOx. As a side effect, it should also drop the > temp > > > > > > > > of the exhaust manifold. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If it's clogged, unbolt the valve and clean it out with a > > > > screwdriver. > > > > > > > > Clean the passages as best you can with a long thin > screwdriver > > > > > > > > or something like an old speedometer cable attached to a > > > > > > > > variable-speed drill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BTW, have you ever tried decarbonizing the head by spraying > > water > > > > > > > > into the carb while the engine is at fast idle? Use something > > like > > > a > > > > > > > > spray cleaner bottle, don't pour water by hand into the carb > or > > > > you'll > > > > > > > > break a piston or rod due to hydraulic lockup. This should > lower > > > the > > > > > > > > compression back to normal if it's on the high side due to > > carbon > > > > > > > > build-up. You'll get lots of black carbon out the tailpipe, > but > > > > > > eventually > > > > > > > > it will subside when it's all cleaned up, leaving you with a > > > little > > > > > > white > > > > > > > > steam. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message > > > > > > > > news:vqmjjkqu58hj7c@corp.supernews.com... > > > > > > > > > The ERG valve is opening. The canister did have a cat in it > > and > > > it > > > > > was > > > > > > > > > clogged, when I removed it, the temp of the exhaust manifold > > > went > > > > > down > > > > > > > > > (darker red colour) one thing I did notice is that the > coolant > > > > temp > > > > > > went > > > > > > > > > down, as though the car is running a little cooler. I > suspect > > > that > > > > > > this > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > because the exhaust is taking the heat instead of the head. > > Now > > > > why > > > > > is > > > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > > happening, that's the question!!! It's not a warn crankshaft > > > > > sprocket > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > > suggested in the previous post, as I have already taken the > > > > spocket > > > > > > > > off...it > > > > > > > > > was tough to get off and there is no play, so I guess it's > not > > > > worn. > > > > > > Any > > > > > > > > > other suggestion? > > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > > > > > > Mike : ) > > > > > > > > > "Never pet a burning dog!" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message > > > > > > > > > news:bof9v1$r9i$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in > message > > > > > > > > > > news:vqg5dmtaag32b1@corp.supernews.com... > > > > > > > > > > > Hi PPL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have a 86 Hyundai Excell, the ehaust monifold gets > > yellow > > > > hot > > > > > > and > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > > visable during daylight hours. The problem only happens > > when > > > > the > > > > > > car > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > > driven > > > > > > > > > > > down the highway for 10 min or so. The first thing I > > > suspected > > > > > was > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > > clogged > > > > > > > > > > > catalytic converter since it is bolted to the exhaust > > > > monifold. > > > > > > > Ripped > > > > > > > > > out > > > > > > > > > > > the catalytic converter, now the monifold is only red > hot. > > > The > > > > > car > > > > > > > was > > > > > > > > > > > running rough > > > > > > > > > > > so I suspected a timing problem. I reset the crankshaft > > and > > > > > > > camshaft > > > > > > > > > > > timing, set the > > > > > > > > > > > distributor timing to 4 degrees BTDC (as per specs), the > > car > > > > > idles > > > > > > > > > better > > > > > > > > > > > now but the > > > > > > > > > > > monifold is still red hot. Tried a different pair of > > plugs, > > > > no > > > > > > go. > > > > > > > > Made > > > > > > > > > > > sure the choke was opening, > > > > > > > > > > > it's fine, ERG opens fine. Checked all vacume lines and > > > > replaced > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > ones > > > > > > > > > > > that were broken. Since I recently replaced the head > > gasket, > > > I > > > > > > > > retorqued > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > head, no go. Made sure the valve lash was correct > > (suspected > > > > > that > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > exhaust valves weren't closing all the way), no go. > > Replaced > > > > the > > > > > > > > timing > > > > > > > > > > > belt, no go. If I take off timing belt, when the > > crankshaft > > > > and > > > > > > > > camshaft > > > > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > > dead on the timing marks, and turn the crankshaft back > > > > (counter > > > > > > > > > clockwise) > > > > > > > > > > > two teeth on the timing belt, the exhaust manifold > doesn't > > > get > > > > > red > > > > > > > hot > > > > > > > > > at > > > > > > > > > > > all and the car has lots more power. The only problem is > > > that > > > > > the > > > > > > > idel > > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > > > little high, and the timing range is off. What I mean by > > > > timing > > > > > > > range > > > > > > > > > is: > > > > > > > > > > > the whole range adjusting the distributor timing is 30 > > > degrees > > > > > > BTDC > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > TDC, > > > > > > > > > > > none for ATDC. I's really stange that I would have to > move > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > crankshaft > > > > > > > > > > > back two teeth to fix the problem, all logic says that > the > > > > > > > crankshaft > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > camshaft should be set to thier respective timing marks. > > > Does > > > > > > > anybody > > > > > > > > > any > > > > > > > > > > > any advice as I'm still dealing with this problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One possibility is a clogged or defective EGR valve. If > you > > > open > > > > > the > > > > > > > > valve > > > > > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > > > hand when it's cool it should remain open when you cover > the > > > > > vacuum > > > > > > > > nipple > > > > > > > > > > with a spare finger. If you open the valve by hand with > the > > > > engine > > > > > > > > running > > > > > > > > > > (before it gets hot), the idle should drop and/or > > > stumble/stall. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Does this engine have some sort of air injection into the > > > > exhaust > > > > > > > > manifold > > > > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > > > well as into the cat? If so, the diverter valve may be > shot > > > and > > > > > it's > > > > > > > > > pumping > > > > > > > > > > air into the manifold all the time. If your exhaust is too > > > rich > > > > > > > > (misfire), > > > > > > > > > > this would > > > > > > > > > > cause the glowing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I suspect that your cat was an empty canister when you > > removed > > > > it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > |
Re: Red Hot Exhaust Manifold
Before you go out and get a distributor, please check out the
1988 Excel service manual online at www.hmaservice.com/webtech . Select your car (1988, not 86) and click on "Shop". Under "Engine Electrical System" read the specs on page 2, then read about the distributor on page 30. I was surprised to read that the mechanical advance for this dist is only 5° at 2500 rpm, and tops out at 16° at 6000 rpm. This probably explains why things don't glow when you drive at 2500 rpms (there's enough advance) but do at higher speeds (not enough). Vacuum advance ranges from 0° to 23° tops. When you tested the advance, you probably didn't rev the engine much past 3000, which sounds pretty fast at in neutral. 5° is not a lot of movement when looking with a standard timing light. Don't concern yourself too much with the EGR opening when cold. It's not serious, and will only cause hesitation and poor performance until the engine warms up. And don't worry about the EGR being open at full throttle. EGR works off of ported vacuum, which is highest at about 1/2 throttle, dropping to zero when fully closed or fully open. It's difficult to see what fully open is like when the car is in neutral, because it revs too fast too quickly. I'd concentrate on the distributor first. Recheck the mechanical advance with the vacuum hoses removed & plugged. Then reconnect the hoses and there should be a lot more advance than before. If not, make sure there's vacuum at the hoses when you open the throttle. Follow the hoses back to their source, which may be the same defective thermal switch that's also running the EGR. Or, you may have mixed up the hoses where they attach to that switch. I haven't checked, but the online manual probably has vacuum routing diagrams too. Good luck. Bob "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message news:vrm700o5qd4b82@corp.supernews.com... > Lots of hills here Bob, My girlfriend is a valley girl : ) > Saskatchewan is hilly (most of it) there is a ski hill down the road from > us. > Now, Manitoba is flat, watch your dog run away for a week. : ) > > Actually the car has good acceleration all the way up to 130Kph > I'll try blocking the secondary air control valve, never thought to try > that. > I'm not sure I agree that the car would be pinging with the distributor set > to 12% BTDC as most cars are set to 10% BTDC, I don't trust the Haynes > manual, nor the emissions sticker (4% BTDC) on the underside of the hood, > however I do agree that I might have a distributor problem. I'll check that > out tomorrow. One thing to note: I tried 4% BTDC and the car was backfiring, > asuming (crankshaft is at it's respective timing mark) so the distributor > could be the problem. > > One thing I tried tonight was, have the GF revv the car to 2,500 RPM and > observ the ERG valve, it opens up all the way when the car is stone cold. > The Haynes manual says that the ERG shouldn't open (up to 2,500RPM cold > engine) when the engine is cold, if, it does, then the thermo valve has to > be replaced. The ERG vacuum is controled by the thermo valve, engine heats > up and the thermo valve applies vacuum to the ERG if the temp is hot enough > (185degrees), and engine is revved past 2,500 RPM. The ERG does open up all > the way when the engine is warm/hot. Also the manual says that the ERG valve > shouldn't open at full throttle if the engine is hot. The ERG opens up fully > when I revv the engine to full throttle (hot or cold), but not at idle. I'm > thinking that the problem may be the ERG opening at the wrong times. > > Another thing I tried tonight was, drive the car down the highway really > fast, checked the exhaust manifold, red hot, drove back home in over drive, > at low RPM (2,500RPM) around 80Kph for about 20 min. Checked the > manifold,,,,wahoooo!!! it doesn't look like a bright red cherry tomato. LOL > So, the problem is only occuring at 3/4 and full throttle. > I'll double check the routing of the vacume hoses, if no go, then check the > distributor and or find a used one, if no go, order a thermo valve. > Unfortunately, the dammmm Haynes manual only shows the ERG diagram for a 88 > and up, I'll have to go by that diagram. > > Thanks for the help, at least I have a troubleshooting path to follow now. > I'll try your suggestions tomorrow and get back to you. At least I don't > feel like driving the car off of a cliff now! > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message > news:bpeu90$h9p$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com... > > Yeah. It doesn't take much spark to keep a car going at highway > > speed. And you don't have much in the way of hills out there either. > > So 12% advance is enough to keep the engine running at fairly > > low rpms, say 2000-2500 at 80kph in high gear. But I bet your > > acceleration really sucks. > > > And even though the engine is running, there's a LOT of unburned > > HC's going out the exhaust and heating up your manifold. > > You still might want to try blocking off the secondary air hose before > > you fix this problem just to see if the glowing stops. > > > > The return springs in the distributor are probably broken or > > streched out (just like that throttle return spring), so the dist > > is stuck at full mechanical advance and you've compensated for > > it. But you also have vacuum advance when the throttle is open, > > and that plus the 12% keeps things running, sort of, on the highway. > > If the mechanical advance actually worked, your engine would be > > knocking (pinging) like crazy on regular gas. > > > > A brand new distributor assembly is $340 from Hyundai, or a lot > > less used from a junkyard. Part number is 27100-21430 for a > > manual, and 27100-21440 for an automatic tranny. Any dist from > > a carburated Excel from 86 and later will work if it has the same > > tranny as yours. (Timing advance curves differ slightly between > > the two.) It's a shame, but there was a guy on Ebay trying to > > get rid of a couple of these Excel distributors a few months ago > > for next to nothing. I checked, but there's nothing out there right > > now or in the last 30 days (just a couple of different auctions for > > a 91 Scoupe dist, not compatible). > > > > I wouldn't bother with the EGR passage right now. Find a > > used distributor first. > > > > Bob > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message > > news:vrl4pm8t4ijfe2@corp.supernews.com... > > > Hey Bob, me thinks I got it figured out. > > > I think the whole problem is timing advance. Remember I was saying that > I > > > have to set the crankshaft back two teeth to eliminate the glowing red > > > exhaust manifold problem. Currently I've left the crankshaft at a half > of > > a > > > tooth backwards (as close to timing mark as I can) and the distributor > > > timing has been left at 10% BTDC (book says 4%) > > > If I change the distributor timing to 4% BTDC, the problem gets worse > and > > > the car has hardly any power on the highway. Checked the spark plugs and > > now > > > they are black. Changed the distributor to 12% BTDC, plugs are starting > to > > > go to a dark tan colour. I'm thinking that the timing isn't advancing > > enough > > > (when driving down the highway) because, either shifting the crankshaft > > back > > > two teeth or, with the crankshaft back half a tooth, advancing the > > > distributor timing to 12% BTDC, has the same effect. I checked the > > > distributor timing, with a timing light (12%BTDC) and revved the engine, > > the > > > timing doesn't seem to move much from the timing mark IE: the timing > blur > > on > > > the crankshaft pulley doesn't go advance to say 20% BTDC > > > Now here is where things don't make sense, how can I wipp down the road > at > > > 140Kph if the timing isn't advancing? Maybe it's because I've set the > > timing > > > to 12% BTDC???? > > > Any suggestions??? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message > > > news:vrkjsm843rmua1@corp.supernews.com... > > > > Yep that is true with the head gasket, however for the after market > head > > > > gasket that I bought, it will fit on only one way.. The coolant > > circulates > > > > IE: I have heat inside of the car and there I get oil to the head.It > > might > > > > be possiable that I might have some how put the head gasket on > backwards > > > as > > > > anything is possiable, 99% I didn't. The idle is a tad high, it's > > because > > > I > > > > have a weak return spring for the Primary Throttle, I've shorthened > the > > > > spring (more springy : )) however the idle sometimes is a little high. > > > > Anyhoo I think I'm going to take the carb and intake manifold off > today, > > > and > > > > try reaming out the ERG passages in the head and intake manifold. If I > > > don't > > > > find some kind of restriction then I'll take off the head and see > where > > > I'm > > > > at from there. Ohh ya one thing to mention, the head isn't as hot as > > it's > > > > been before, but that might be because it's fall here is Saskatchewan, > > > > burrrrr getting chilly outside. > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message > > > > news:bpd6a9$8r9$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com... > > > > > The thing with most head gaskets is that on many engines, you > > > > > *can* put them on upside down (flipped left to right) and the bolt > > > > > holes still line up, but the coolant passages don't, so you have > > > > > partially blocked passages and an overheated head. > > > > > > > > > > The idle is a bit high (s.b. 750±100) . Does it refuse to idle at > > > > > lower speeds? > > > > > > > > > > I couldn't find the online manual for your Excel at > > > > > www.hmaservice.com/webtech , the closest I could get is 1988. > > > > > Do you have a feedback carb and an O2 sensor? If you do and > > > > > your O2 sensor is dead, the ECU might think that it needs to > > > > > increase the O2 by leaning out the mixture as much as it can, > > > > > but not so much that you'd notice a performance problem at > > > > > highway speeds. > > > > > > > > > > Looking at the 1988 manual, your secondary air control valve is > > > > > supposed to let air into the exhaust manfold when the engine is > > > > > warming up, then it switches to sending air downstream to the > > > > > 2nd cat under the car. If this valve is burnt out or always open, > > > > > air would always be going into the manifold and causing the > > > > > red-hot condition. Try plugging the hose from the valve to the > > > > > manifold and see if things improve. There should also be some > > > > > sort of check valve where the hose meets the manifold to > > > > > prevent hot exhaust from going back thru the hose and burning > > > > > up the valve. > > > > > > > > > > The cliff is starting to sound much better. > > > > > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message > > > > > news:vrgsejs3al6816@corp.supernews.com... > > > > > > Yeppers I'm stumped to > > > > > > Ya I had a Cavalier with a bad cat, the carpet caught on fire LOL > > > > > > The plugs are a tan colour, so the mixture seems to be correct. > The > > > > spark > > > > > > plug wires are new and not arcing. There is no air injection > system > > > (air > > > > > jet > > > > > > valve beside intake valve) on the 86 model. The car is idling fine > > so > > > > I'll > > > > > > assume for now the carb is ok. > > > > > > what else...ummm let's see...oh ya, the idle is around 900 RPM > when > > > the > > > > > car > > > > > > is at operating temp. I'll remove the ERG and see if the car runs > > > like > > > > > > > > > > > to verify that the ERG passage has been cleared. If not then I'll > do > > > as > > > > > you > > > > > > suggested and try cleaning the passage again. The head gasket > wasn't > > > put > > > > > on > > > > > > back wards as there is only one way to align the bolt holes. If I > > put > > > > the > > > > > > head gasket was on backwards, how would that affect the ERG > passage? > > I > > > > was > > > > > > under the assumption that the ERG passage went from the intake > > > manifold > > > > > > through the head and not the block. As I mentioned I was able to > > feed > > > 2 > > > > > feet > > > > > > of the speedometer cable through both passages. Do you think that > is > > > far > > > > > > enough? When ever I took a vacuum line off, I made sure that it I > > put > > > it > > > > > > back in the correct place, but I'll double check that tomorrow. I > > was > > > > also > > > > > > thinking that, I could take off the intake manifold, that would > give > > > me > > > > a > > > > > > better view of the ERG passages and do some extra cleaning if > > nessary. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the suggestions, if this doesn't fix the problem, then > I > > > > think > > > > > > I'm going to drive the car off of a cliff. : ( > > > > > > Bye for now > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message > > > > > > news:bp9ks0$o5f$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com... > > > > > > > I'm stumped. On other cars (not Hyundai), I've seen red-hot > > > > > > > catalytic converters when there's a lot of unburned gas due to > > > > > > > bad spark plugs or wires. In this case, you'd notice a rough > > > > > > > idle most of the time. It's also possible that the engine is > > running > > > > > > > too rich (or as others have suggested, too lean) at highway > > > > > > > speeds due to a leaky or clogged carb. You might be able to tell > > > > > > > which way it's running by examining the spark plugs. If it's too > > > rich > > > > > > > one or more wil be black and sooty. If too lean, they'll be > > really, > > > > > > > really clean & white. Normally, they have slight tan deposits on > > > > > > > the ceramic part. Check the plug wires on a dark night. When you > > > > > > > put your hands near the wires, there should be no arcing or > > > > > > > glowing spots. If there is, you need new wires. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Does the air injection on this car come from an air pump? On > some > > > > > > > engines, the air injection is just sucked in thru a filter > without > > a > > > > > > > pump. Follow the hoses from that secondary air control valve to > > > > > > > see where it comes from. If it's a pump, try removing the belt > or > > > > > > > plugging the hose. If you remove the air source, the unburned > gas > > > > > > > may just go out the back pipe instead of afterburning in the > > > manifold. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you think it's the carb, you can try getting a carb rebuild > kit > > > and > > > > > > have > > > > > > > a go at taking it apart, cleaning it and putting things back > > > together. > > > > > > > You may discover a partially clogged jet or air bleed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > By the way, I find that carb cleaner works a lot better than > brake > > > > > > > cleaner on oily deposits. (Carb cleaner dissolves paint, brake > > > cleaner > > > > > > > generally doesn't, and carb cleaner is a lot cheaper.) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do you know what the idle is on this engine right now? It should > > be > > > > > > > around 700-800, and opening the EGR by hand should result in > more > > > > > > > than a slight decrease in idle speed. Is the idle cranked up to > > > > > 1100-1300 > > > > > > > to compensate for really bad performance at normal idle? If you > > want > > > > > > > to see the difference, try running the engine with the EGR valve > > > > > removed. > > > > > > > It shouldn't run very well at all. If it does, spray carb > cleaner > > > into > > > > > the > > > > > > > passages that you reamed out, a little at a time, until it > breaks > > > thru > > > > > > > the remaining blockage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I hope one of these suggestions works. I'm also assuming that > when > > > you > > > > > > > took the head off, you put the head gasket back on with the > > correct > > > > side > > > > > > > up. I'm also assuming that all the vacuum and vapor hoses are > back > > > > where > > > > > > > they should be. I remember reading a post here a few years ago > > where > > > > > > > someone switched a vapor return hose with a vacuum hose, and the > > > > engine > > > > > > > wouldn't run because of all of the extra gas being sucked in. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message > > > > > > > news:vrgemnfl117rd0@corp.supernews.com... > > > > > > > > Hi Bob > > > > > > > > I made a mistake when I was saying that the ERG was on the > > exhaust > > > > > > > manifold, > > > > > > > > it's on the intake manifold. I was talking about the wrong > part > > as > > > I > > > > > > > thought > > > > > > > > the secondary air control valve was the ERG. Anyhoo I did as > you > > > > > > > susggested, > > > > > > > > except I didin't decarbonize the head. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I took off the ERG and inspected it. The valve was gummed up > > with > > > > oil > > > > > > > > sludge, cleaned it up (break cleaner) and made a new gasket > for > > > it. > > > > > When > > > > > > > > depressing the diaphragm, the valve wasn't sticking and was > able > > > to > > > > > > swish > > > > > > > > break cleaner back and forth between the two openings for > > recycled > > > > > > > exhaust. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I reamed out the two ERG passages (on intake manifold) with a > > used > > > > > > > > speedometer cable and a power drill. I was able to feed about > 2 > > > and > > > > a > > > > > > half > > > > > > > > feet into each passage. One of the passages that goes towards > > the > > > > > carb, > > > > > > > was > > > > > > > > clogged with oily sludge, but I was able to clean it and spray > > > some > > > > > > break > > > > > > > > cleaner into it to further soften up the sludge. Put the whole > > > thing > > > > > > back > > > > > > > > together, ran the car down the road for 20 min and I have the > > same > > > > > > > problem, > > > > > > > > red hot exhaust manifold. With the engine at operating temp I > > > revved > > > > > the > > > > > > > > engine, the ERG diaphragm opens all the way (the back of the > ERG > > > is > > > > > open > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > see the diaphragm) pushed on the diaphragm with my finger, the > > > idle > > > > > > > changes > > > > > > > > slightly. So it appears as though the ERG is operating as it > > > should. > > > > > Any > > > > > > > > other suggestions? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message > > > > > > > > news:boj6gs$9a9$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com... > > > > > > > > > The EGR valve may be opening (i.e., the rubber diaphragm is > > > > intact), > > > > > > > > > but the EGR passage thru the intake manifold back to the > head > > > may > > > > > > > > > be all clogged up with carbon, especially after 17 years. > Open > > > the > > > > > > > > > valve by hand or with a vacuum pump while the engine is > > idling, > > > > and > > > > > > > > > see if it stalls (it should). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The purpose of exhaust gas recirculation is to lower the > temps > > > in > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > combustion chamber a couple of hundred degrees to reduce the > > > > > > > > > formation of NOx. As a side effect, it should also drop the > > temp > > > > > > > > > of the exhaust manifold. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If it's clogged, unbolt the valve and clean it out with a > > > > > screwdriver. > > > > > > > > > Clean the passages as best you can with a long thin > > screwdriver > > > > > > > > > or something like an old speedometer cable attached to a > > > > > > > > > variable-speed drill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BTW, have you ever tried decarbonizing the head by spraying > > > water > > > > > > > > > into the carb while the engine is at fast idle? Use > something > > > like > > > > a > > > > > > > > > spray cleaner bottle, don't pour water by hand into the carb > > or > > > > > you'll > > > > > > > > > break a piston or rod due to hydraulic lockup. This should > > lower > > > > the > > > > > > > > > compression back to normal if it's on the high side due to > > > carbon > > > > > > > > > build-up. You'll get lots of black carbon out the tailpipe, > > but > > > > > > > eventually > > > > > > > > > it will subside when it's all cleaned up, leaving you with a > > > > little > > > > > > > white > > > > > > > > > steam. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message > > > > > > > > > news:vqmjjkqu58hj7c@corp.supernews.com... > > > > > > > > > > The ERG valve is opening. The canister did have a cat in > it > > > and > > > > it > > > > > > was > > > > > > > > > > clogged, when I removed it, the temp of the exhaust > manifold > > > > went > > > > > > down > > > > > > > > > > (darker red colour) one thing I did notice is that the > > coolant > > > > > temp > > > > > > > went > > > > > > > > > > down, as though the car is running a little cooler. I > > suspect > > > > that > > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > because the exhaust is taking the heat instead of the > head. > > > Now > > > > > why > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > > > happening, that's the question!!! It's not a warn > crankshaft > > > > > > sprocket > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > > > suggested in the previous post, as I have already taken > the > > > > > spocket > > > > > > > > > off...it > > > > > > > > > > was tough to get off and there is no play, so I guess it's > > not > > > > > worn. > > > > > > > Any > > > > > > > > > > other suggestion? > > > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > > > > > > > Mike : ) > > > > > > > > > > "Never pet a burning dog!" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message > > > > > > > > > > news:bof9v1$r9i$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in > > message > > > > > > > > > > > news:vqg5dmtaag32b1@corp.supernews.com... > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi PPL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have a 86 Hyundai Excell, the ehaust monifold gets > > > yellow > > > > > hot > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > > > visable during daylight hours. The problem only > happens > > > when > > > > > the > > > > > > > car > > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > > > driven > > > > > > > > > > > > down the highway for 10 min or so. The first thing I > > > > suspected > > > > > > was > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > > > clogged > > > > > > > > > > > > catalytic converter since it is bolted to the exhaust > > > > > monifold. > > > > > > > > Ripped > > > > > > > > > > out > > > > > > > > > > > > the catalytic converter, now the monifold is only red > > hot. > > > > The > > > > > > car > > > > > > > > was > > > > > > > > > > > > running rough > > > > > > > > > > > > so I suspected a timing problem. I reset the > crankshaft > > > and > > > > > > > > camshaft > > > > > > > > > > > > timing, set the > > > > > > > > > > > > distributor timing to 4 degrees BTDC (as per specs), > the > > > car > > > > > > idles > > > > > > > > > > better > > > > > > > > > > > > now but the > > > > > > > > > > > > monifold is still red hot. Tried a different pair of > > > plugs, > > > > > no > > > > > > > go. > > > > > > > > > Made > > > > > > > > > > > > sure the choke was opening, > > > > > > > > > > > > it's fine, ERG opens fine. Checked all vacume lines > and > > > > > replaced > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > ones > > > > > > > > > > > > that were broken. Since I recently replaced the head > > > gasket, > > > > I > > > > > > > > > retorqued > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > head, no go. Made sure the valve lash was correct > > > (suspected > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > exhaust valves weren't closing all the way), no go. > > > Replaced > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > timing > > > > > > > > > > > > belt, no go. If I take off timing belt, when the > > > crankshaft > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > camshaft > > > > > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > > > dead on the timing marks, and turn the crankshaft back > > > > > (counter > > > > > > > > > > clockwise) > > > > > > > > > > > > two teeth on the timing belt, the exhaust manifold > > doesn't > > > > get > > > > > > red > > > > > > > > hot > > > > > > > > > > at > > > > > > > > > > > > all and the car has lots more power. The only problem > is > > > > that > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > idel > > > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > > > > little high, and the timing range is off. What I mean > by > > > > > timing > > > > > > > > range > > > > > > > > > > is: > > > > > > > > > > > > the whole range adjusting the distributor timing is 30 > > > > degrees > > > > > > > BTDC > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > TDC, > > > > > > > > > > > > none for ATDC. I's really stange that I would have to > > move > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > crankshaft > > > > > > > > > > > > back two teeth to fix the problem, all logic says that > > the > > > > > > > > crankshaft > > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > camshaft should be set to thier respective timing > marks. > > > > Does > > > > > > > > anybody > > > > > > > > > > any > > > > > > > > > > > > any advice as I'm still dealing with this problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One possibility is a clogged or defective EGR valve. If > > you > > > > open > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > valve > > > > > > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > > > > hand when it's cool it should remain open when you cover > > the > > > > > > vacuum > > > > > > > > > nipple > > > > > > > > > > > with a spare finger. If you open the valve by hand with > > the > > > > > engine > > > > > > > > > running > > > > > > > > > > > (before it gets hot), the idle should drop and/or > > > > stumble/stall. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Does this engine have some sort of air injection into > the > > > > > exhaust > > > > > > > > > manifold > > > > > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > > > > well as into the cat? If so, the diverter valve may be > > shot > > > > and > > > > > > it's > > > > > > > > > > pumping > > > > > > > > > > > air into the manifold all the time. If your exhaust is > too > > > > rich > > > > > > > > > (misfire), > > > > > > > > > > > this would > > > > > > > > > > > cause the glowing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I suspect that your cat was an empty canister when you > > > removed > > > > > it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > |
Re: Red Hot Exhaust Manifold
Update:
Took the distributor apart, the governor weights were stuck, they moved but barely. So I cleaned the governor weights, spindle and greased them up. The weights move more freely now, which was part of my problem. The breaker plate was also sticking a little, cleaned it up and greased it, adjusted the igniter (.030 ") I think that I might have to replace the vacuum advance module as it doesn't seem to move to much. With a vacuum line attached to the bottom nipple, sucking (with my mouth as a don't have a hand pump) on the line to build up pressure, the igniter advances, but not very much, maybe 2 or 3 mm. The top nipple doesn't hold any vacuum at all. The car is definitely working better now. I set the ignition timing to 4 degrees BTDC, now there is no back firing. With the engine warmed up, timing light attached, revved the engine, observed the timing advancing properly. Before I fixed the distributor the timing was actually going to ATDC 1 or 2 degrees and then advancing BTDC 5 to 10 degrees, as I revved the engine. Took the car for a drive down the road, brought it up to 130 Kph for 15 min, stopped and the exhaust manifold is still red hot. Drove back home in over drive at 100Kph, the exhaust manifold isn't red hot. I'm still baffled, any suggestions? "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message news:bphc9g$pmn$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com... > Before you go out and get a distributor, please check out the > 1988 Excel service manual online at www.hmaservice.com/webtech . > Select your car (1988, not 86) and click on "Shop". Under > "Engine Electrical System" read the specs on page 2, then read > about the distributor on page 30. > > I was surprised to read that the mechanical advance for this dist > is only 5° at 2500 rpm, and tops out at 16° at 6000 rpm. This > probably explains why things don't glow when you drive at 2500 rpms > (there's enough advance) but do at higher speeds (not enough). > Vacuum advance ranges from 0° to 23° tops. > > When you tested the advance, you probably didn't rev the engine > much past 3000, which sounds pretty fast at in neutral. 5° is > not a lot of movement when looking with a standard timing light. > > Don't concern yourself too much with the EGR opening when cold. > It's not serious, and will only cause hesitation and poor performance > until the engine warms up. And don't worry about the EGR being > open at full throttle. EGR works off of ported vacuum, which is > highest at about 1/2 throttle, dropping to zero when fully closed or > fully open. It's difficult to see what fully open is like when the car > is in neutral, because it revs too fast too quickly. > > I'd concentrate on the distributor first. Recheck the mechanical > advance with the vacuum hoses removed & plugged. Then reconnect > the hoses and there should be a lot more advance than before. > If not, make sure there's vacuum at the hoses when you open > the throttle. Follow the hoses back to their source, which may be > the same defective thermal switch that's also running the EGR. > Or, you may have mixed up the hoses where they attach to that > switch. I haven't checked, but the online manual probably has > vacuum routing diagrams too. > > Good luck. > > Bob > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message > news:vrm700o5qd4b82@corp.supernews.com... > > Lots of hills here Bob, My girlfriend is a valley girl : ) > > Saskatchewan is hilly (most of it) there is a ski hill down the road from > > us. > > Now, Manitoba is flat, watch your dog run away for a week. : ) > > > > Actually the car has good acceleration all the way up to 130Kph > > I'll try blocking the secondary air control valve, never thought to try > > that. > > I'm not sure I agree that the car would be pinging with the distributor > set > > to 12% BTDC as most cars are set to 10% BTDC, I don't trust the Haynes > > manual, nor the emissions sticker (4% BTDC) on the underside of the hood, > > however I do agree that I might have a distributor problem. I'll check > that > > out tomorrow. One thing to note: I tried 4% BTDC and the car was > backfiring, > > asuming (crankshaft is at it's respective timing mark) so the distributor > > could be the problem. > > > > One thing I tried tonight was, have the GF revv the car to 2,500 RPM and > > observ the ERG valve, it opens up all the way when the car is stone cold. > > The Haynes manual says that the ERG shouldn't open (up to 2,500RPM cold > > engine) when the engine is cold, if, it does, then the thermo valve has to > > be replaced. The ERG vacuum is controled by the thermo valve, engine heats > > up and the thermo valve applies vacuum to the ERG if the temp is hot > enough > > (185degrees), and engine is revved past 2,500 RPM. The ERG does open up > all > > the way when the engine is warm/hot. Also the manual says that the ERG > valve > > shouldn't open at full throttle if the engine is hot. The ERG opens up > fully > > when I revv the engine to full throttle (hot or cold), but not at idle. > I'm > > thinking that the problem may be the ERG opening at the wrong times. > > > > Another thing I tried tonight was, drive the car down the highway really > > fast, checked the exhaust manifold, red hot, drove back home in over > drive, > > at low RPM (2,500RPM) around 80Kph for about 20 min. Checked the > > manifold,,,,wahoooo!!! it doesn't look like a bright red cherry tomato. > LOL > > So, the problem is only occuring at 3/4 and full throttle. > > I'll double check the routing of the vacume hoses, if no go, then check > the > > distributor and or find a used one, if no go, order a thermo valve. > > Unfortunately, the dammmm Haynes manual only shows the ERG diagram for a > 88 > > and up, I'll have to go by that diagram. > > > > Thanks for the help, at least I have a troubleshooting path to follow now. > > I'll try your suggestions tomorrow and get back to you. At least I don't > > feel like driving the car off of a cliff now! > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message > > news:bpeu90$h9p$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com... > > > Yeah. It doesn't take much spark to keep a car going at highway > > > speed. And you don't have much in the way of hills out there either. > > > So 12% advance is enough to keep the engine running at fairly > > > low rpms, say 2000-2500 at 80kph in high gear. But I bet your > > > acceleration really sucks. > > > > And even though the engine is running, there's a LOT of unburned > > > HC's going out the exhaust and heating up your manifold. > > > You still might want to try blocking off the secondary air hose before > > > you fix this problem just to see if the glowing stops. > > > > > > The return springs in the distributor are probably broken or > > > streched out (just like that throttle return spring), so the dist > > > is stuck at full mechanical advance and you've compensated for > > > it. But you also have vacuum advance when the throttle is open, > > > and that plus the 12% keeps things running, sort of, on the highway. > > > If the mechanical advance actually worked, your engine would be > > > knocking (pinging) like crazy on regular gas. > > > > > > A brand new distributor assembly is $340 from Hyundai, or a lot > > > less used from a junkyard. Part number is 27100-21430 for a > > > manual, and 27100-21440 for an automatic tranny. Any dist from > > > a carburated Excel from 86 and later will work if it has the same > > > tranny as yours. (Timing advance curves differ slightly between > > > the two.) It's a shame, but there was a guy on Ebay trying to > > > get rid of a couple of these Excel distributors a few months ago > > > for next to nothing. I checked, but there's nothing out there right > > > now or in the last 30 days (just a couple of different auctions for > > > a 91 Scoupe dist, not compatible). > > > > > > I wouldn't bother with the EGR passage right now. Find a > > > used distributor first. > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message > > > news:vrl4pm8t4ijfe2@corp.supernews.com... > > > > Hey Bob, me thinks I got it figured out. > > > > I think the whole problem is timing advance. Remember I was saying > that > > I > > > > have to set the crankshaft back two teeth to eliminate the glowing red > > > > exhaust manifold problem. Currently I've left the crankshaft at a half > > of > > > a > > > > tooth backwards (as close to timing mark as I can) and the distributor > > > > timing has been left at 10% BTDC (book says 4%) > > > > If I change the distributor timing to 4% BTDC, the problem gets worse > > and > > > > the car has hardly any power on the highway. Checked the spark plugs > and > > > now > > > > they are black. Changed the distributor to 12% BTDC, plugs are > starting > > to > > > > go to a dark tan colour. I'm thinking that the timing isn't advancing > > > enough > > > > (when driving down the highway) because, either shifting the > crankshaft > > > back > > > > two teeth or, with the crankshaft back half a tooth, advancing the > > > > distributor timing to 12% BTDC, has the same effect. I checked the > > > > distributor timing, with a timing light (12%BTDC) and revved the > engine, > > > the > > > > timing doesn't seem to move much from the timing mark IE: the timing > > blur > > > on > > > > the crankshaft pulley doesn't go advance to say 20% BTDC > > > > Now here is where things don't make sense, how can I wipp down the > road > > at > > > > 140Kph if the timing isn't advancing? Maybe it's because I've set the > > > timing > > > > to 12% BTDC???? > > > > Any suggestions??? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message > > > > news:vrkjsm843rmua1@corp.supernews.com... > > > > > Yep that is true with the head gasket, however for the after market > > head > > > > > gasket that I bought, it will fit on only one way.. The coolant > > > circulates > > > > > IE: I have heat inside of the car and there I get oil to the head.It > > > might > > > > > be possiable that I might have some how put the head gasket on > > backwards > > > > as > > > > > anything is possiable, 99% I didn't. The idle is a tad high, it's > > > because > > > > I > > > > > have a weak return spring for the Primary Throttle, I've shorthened > > the > > > > > spring (more springy : )) however the idle sometimes is a little > high. > > > > > Anyhoo I think I'm going to take the carb and intake manifold off > > today, > > > > and > > > > > try reaming out the ERG passages in the head and intake manifold. If > I > > > > don't > > > > > find some kind of restriction then I'll take off the head and see > > where > > > > I'm > > > > > at from there. Ohh ya one thing to mention, the head isn't as hot as > > > it's > > > > > been before, but that might be because it's fall here is > Saskatchewan, > > > > > burrrrr getting chilly outside. > > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message > > > > > news:bpd6a9$8r9$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com... > > > > > > The thing with most head gaskets is that on many engines, you > > > > > > *can* put them on upside down (flipped left to right) and the bolt > > > > > > holes still line up, but the coolant passages don't, so you have > > > > > > partially blocked passages and an overheated head. > > > > > > > > > > > > The idle is a bit high (s.b. 750±100) . Does it refuse to idle at > > > > > > lower speeds? > > > > > > > > > > > > I couldn't find the online manual for your Excel at > > > > > > www.hmaservice.com/webtech , the closest I could get is 1988. > > > > > > Do you have a feedback carb and an O2 sensor? If you do and > > > > > > your O2 sensor is dead, the ECU might think that it needs to > > > > > > increase the O2 by leaning out the mixture as much as it can, > > > > > > but not so much that you'd notice a performance problem at > > > > > > highway speeds. > > > > > > > > > > > > Looking at the 1988 manual, your secondary air control valve is > > > > > > supposed to let air into the exhaust manfold when the engine is > > > > > > warming up, then it switches to sending air downstream to the > > > > > > 2nd cat under the car. If this valve is burnt out or always open, > > > > > > air would always be going into the manifold and causing the > > > > > > red-hot condition. Try plugging the hose from the valve to the > > > > > > manifold and see if things improve. There should also be some > > > > > > sort of check valve where the hose meets the manifold to > > > > > > prevent hot exhaust from going back thru the hose and burning > > > > > > up the valve. > > > > > > > > > > > > The cliff is starting to sound much better. > > > > > > > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message > > > > > > news:vrgsejs3al6816@corp.supernews.com... > > > > > > > Yeppers I'm stumped to > > > > > > > Ya I had a Cavalier with a bad cat, the carpet caught on fire > LOL > > > > > > > The plugs are a tan colour, so the mixture seems to be correct. > > The > > > > > spark > > > > > > > plug wires are new and not arcing. There is no air injection > > system > > > > (air > > > > > > jet > > > > > > > valve beside intake valve) on the 86 model. The car is idling > fine > > > so > > > > > I'll > > > > > > > assume for now the carb is ok. > > > > > > > what else...ummm let's see...oh ya, the idle is around 900 RPM > > when > > > > the > > > > > > car > > > > > > > is at operating temp. I'll remove the ERG and see if the car > runs > > > > like > > > > > > > > > > > > > to verify that the ERG passage has been cleared. If not then > I'll > > do > > > > as > > > > > > you > > > > > > > suggested and try cleaning the passage again. The head gasket > > wasn't > > > > put > > > > > > on > > > > > > > back wards as there is only one way to align the bolt holes. If > I > > > put > > > > > the > > > > > > > head gasket was on backwards, how would that affect the ERG > > passage? > > > I > > > > > was > > > > > > > under the assumption that the ERG passage went from the intake > > > > manifold > > > > > > > through the head and not the block. As I mentioned I was able to > > > feed > > > > 2 > > > > > > feet > > > > > > > of the speedometer cable through both passages. Do you think > that > > is > > > > far > > > > > > > enough? When ever I took a vacuum line off, I made sure that it > I > > > put > > > > it > > > > > > > back in the correct place, but I'll double check that tomorrow. > I > > > was > > > > > also > > > > > > > thinking that, I could take off the intake manifold, that would > > give > > > > me > > > > > a > > > > > > > better view of the ERG passages and do some extra cleaning if > > > nessary. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the suggestions, if this doesn't fix the problem, > then > > I > > > > > think > > > > > > > I'm going to drive the car off of a cliff. : ( > > > > > > > Bye for now > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message > > > > > > > news:bp9ks0$o5f$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com... > > > > > > > > I'm stumped. On other cars (not Hyundi), I've seen red-hot > > > > > > > > catalytic converters when there's a lot of unburned gas due to > > > > > > > > bad spark plugs or wires. In this case, you'd notice a rough > > > > > > > > idle most of the time. It's also possible that the engine is > > > running > > > > > > > > too rich (or as others have suggested, too lean) at highway > > > > > > > > speeds due to a leaky or clogged carb. You might be able to > tell > > > > > > > > which way it's running by examining the spark plugs. If it's > too > > > > rich > > > > > > > > one or more will be black and sooty. If too lean, they'll be > > > really, > > > > > > > > really clean & white. Normally, they have slight tan deposits > on > > > > > > > > the ceramic part. Check the plug wires on a dark night. When > you > > > > > > > > put your hands near the wires, there should be no arcing or > > > > > > > > glowing spots. If there is, you need new wires. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Does the air injection on this car come from an air pump? On > > some > > > > > > > > engines, the air injection is just sucked in thru a filter > > without > > > a > > > > > > > > pump. Follow the hoses from that secondary air control valve > to > > > > > > > > see where it comes from. If it's a pump, try removing the belt > > or > > > > > > > > plugging the hose. If you remove the air source, the unburned > > gas > > > > > > > > may just go out the back pipe instead of afterburning in the > > > > manifold. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you think it's the carb, you can try getting a carb rebuild > > kit > > > > and > > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > a go at taking it apart, cleaning it and putting things back > > > > together. > > > > > > > > You may discover a partially clogged jet or air bleed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > By the way, I find that carb cleaner works a lot better than > > brake > > > > > > > > cleaner on oily deposits. (Carb cleaner dissolves paint, brake > > > > cleaner > > > > > > > > generally doesn't, and carb cleaner is a lot cheaper.) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do you know what the idle is on this engine right now? It > should > > > be > > > > > > > > around 700-800, and opening the EGR by hand should result in > > more > > > > > > > > than a slight decrease in idle speed. Is the idle cranked up > to > > > > > > 1100-1300 > > > > > > > > to compensate for really bad performance at normal idle? If > you > > > want > > > > > > > > to see the difference, try running the engine with the EGR > valve > > > > > > removed. > > > > > > > > It shouldn't run very well at all. If it does, spray carb > > cleaner > > > > into > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > passages that you reamed out, a little at a time, until it > > breaks > > > > thru > > > > > > > > the remaining blockage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I hope one of these suggestions works. I'm also assuming that > > when > > > > you > > > > > > > > took the head off, you put the head gasket back on with the > > > correct > > > > > side > > > > > > > > up. I'm also assuming that all the vacuum and vapor hoses are > > back > > > > > where > > > > > > > > they should be. I remember reading a post here a few years ago > > > where > > > > > > > > someone switched a vapor return hose with a vacuum hose, and > the > > > > > engine > > > > > > > > wouldn't run because of all of the extra gas being sucked in. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message > > > > > > > > news:vrgemnfl117rd0@corp.supernews.com... > > > > > > > > > Hi Bob > > > > > > > > > I made a mistake when I was saying that the ERG was on the > > > exhaust > > > > > > > > manifold, > > > > > > > > > it's on the intake manifold. I was talking about the wrong > > part > > > as > > > > I > > > > > > > > thought > > > > > > > > > the secondary air control valve was the ERG. Anyhoo I did as > > you > > > > > > > > susggested, > > > > > > > > > except I didin't decarbonize the head. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I took off the ERG and inspected it. The valve was gummed up > > > with > > > > > oil > > > > > > > > > sludge, cleaned it up (break cleaner) and made a new gasket > > for > > > > it. > > > > > > When > > > > > > > > > depressing the diaphragm, the valve wasn't sticking and was > > able > > > > to > > > > > > > swish > > > > > > > > > break cleaner back and forth between the two openings for > > > recycled > > > > > > > > exhaust. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I reamed out the two ERG passages (on intake manifold) with > a > > > used > > > > > > > > > speedometer cable and a power drill. I was able to feed > about > > 2 > > > > and > > > > > a > > > > > > > half > > > > > > > > > feet into each passage. One of the passages that goes > towards > > > the > > > > > > carb, > > > > > > > > was > > > > > > > > > clogged with oily sludge, but I was able to clean it and > spray > > > > some > > > > > > > break > > > > > > > > > cleaner into it to further soften up the sludge. Put the > whole > > > > thing > > > > > > > back > > > > > > > > > together, ran the car down the road for 20 min and I have > the > > > same > > > > > > > > problem, > > > > > > > > > red hot exhaust manifold. With the engine at operating temp > I > > > > revved > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > engine, the ERG diaphragm opens all the way (the back of the > > ERG > > > > is > > > > > > open > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > see the diaphragm) pushed on the diaphragm with my finger, > the > > > > idle > > > > > > > > changes > > > > > > > > > slightly. So it appears as though the ERG is operating as it > > > > should. > > > > > > Any > > > > > > > > > other suggestions? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message > > > > > > > > > news:boj6gs$9a9$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com... > > > > > > > > > > The EGR valve may be opening (i.e., the rubber diaphragm > is > > > > > intact), > > > > > > > > > > but the EGR passage thru the intake manifold back to the > > head > > > > may > > > > > > > > > > be all clogged up with carbon, especially after 17 years. > > Open > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > valve by hand or with a vacuum pump while the engine is > > > idling, > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > see if it stalls (it should). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The purpose of exhaust gas recirculation is to lower the > > temps > > > > in > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > combustion chamber a couple of hundred degrees to reduce > the > > > > > > > > > > formation of NOx. As a side effect, it should also drop > the > > > temp > > > > > > > > > > of the exhaust manifold. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If it's clogged, unbolt the valve and clean it out with a > > > > > > screwdriver. > > > > > > > > > > Clean the passages as best you can with a long thin > > > screwdriver > > > > > > > > > > or something like an old speedometer cable attached to a > > > > > > > > > > variable-speed drill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BTW, have you ever tried decarbonizing the head by > spraying > > > > water > > > > > > > > > > into the carb while the engine is at fast idle? Use > > something > > > > like > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > > spray cleaner bottle, don't pour water by hand into the > carb > > > or > > > > > > you'll > > > > > > > > > > break a piston or rod due to hydraulic lockup. This should > > > lower > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > compression back to normal if it's on the high side due to > > > > carbon > > > > > > > > > > build-up. You'll get lots of black carbon out the > tailpipe, > > > but > > > > > > > > eventually > > > > > > > > > > it will subside when it's all cleaned up, leaving you with > a > > > > > little > > > > > > > > white > > > > > > > > > > steam. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in > message > > > > > > > > > > news:vqmjjkqu58hj7c@corp.supernews.com... > > > > > > > > > > > The ERG valve is opening. The canister did have a cat in > > it > > > > and > > > > > it > > > > > > > was > > > > > > > > > > > clogged, when I removed it, the temp of the exhaust > > manifold > > > > > went > > > > > > > down > > > > > > > > > > > (darker red colour) one thing I did notice is that the > > > coolant > > > > > > temp > > > > > > > > went > > > > > > > > > > > down, as though the car is running a little cooler. I > > > suspect > > > > > that > > > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > > because the exhaust is taking the heat instead of the > > head. > > > > Now > > > > > > why > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > > > > happening, that's the question!!! It's not a warn > > crankshaft > > > > > > > sprocket > > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > > > > suggested in the previous post, as I have already taken > > the > > > > > > spocket > > > > > > > > > > off...it > > > > > > > > > > > was tough to get off and there is no play, so I guess > it's > > > not > > > > > > worn. > > > > > > > > Any > > > > > > > > > > > other suggestion? > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > > > > > > > > Mike : ) > > > > > > > > > > > "Never pet a burning dog!" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in > message > > > > > > > > > > > news:bof9v1$r9i$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in > > > message > > > > > > > > > > > > news:vqg5dmtaag32b1@corp.supernews.com... > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi PPL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have a 86 Hyundai Excell, the ehaust monifold gets > > > > yellow > > > > > > hot > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > > > > visable during daylight hours. The problem only > > happens > > > > when > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > car > > > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > > > > driven > > > > > > > > > > > > > down the highway for 10 min or so. The first thing I > > > > > suspected > > > > > > > was > > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > > > > clogged > > > > > > > > > > > > > catalytic converter since it is bolted to the > exhaust > > > > > > monifold. > > > > > > > > > Ripped > > > > > > > > > > > out > > > > > > > > > > > > > the catalytic converter, now the monifold is only > red > > > hot. > > > > > The > > > > > > > car > > > > > > > > > was > > > > > > > > > > > > > running rough > > > > > > > > > > > > > so I suspected a timing problem. I reset the > > crankshaft > > > > and > > > > > > > > > camshaft > > > > > > > > > > > > > timing, set the > > > > > > > > > > > > > distributor timing to 4 degrees BTDC (as per specs), > > the > > > > car > > > > > > > idles > > > > > > > > > > > better > > > > > > > > > > > > > now but the > > > > > > > > > > > > > monifold is still red hot. Tried a different pair > of > > > > plugs, > > > > > > no > > > > > > > > go. > > > > > > > > > > Made > > > > > > > > > > > > > sure the choke was opening, > > > > > > > > > > > > > it's fine, ERG opens fine. Checked all vacume lines > > and > > > > > > replaced > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > ones > > > > > > > > > > > > > that were broken. Since I recently replaced the head > > > > gasket, > > > > > I > > > > > > > > > > retorqued > > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > head, no go. Made sure the valve lash was correct > > > > (suspected > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > exhaust valves weren't closing all the way), no go. > > > > Replaced > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > timing > > > > > > > > > > > > > belt, no go. If I take off timing belt, when the > > > > crankshaft > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > camshaft > > > > > > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > > > > dead on the timing marks, and turn the crankshaft > back > > > > > > (counter > > > > > > > > > > > clockwise) > > > > > > > > > > > > > two teeth on the timing belt, the exhaust manifold > > > doesn't > > > > > get > > > > > > > red > > > > > > > > > hot > > > > > > > > > > > at > > > > > > > > > > > > > all and the car has lots more power. The only > problem > > is > > > > > that > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > idel > > > > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > > > > > little high, and the timing range is off. What I > mean > > by > > > > > > timing > > > > > > > > > range > > > > > > > > > > > is: > > > > > > > > > > > > > the whole range adjusting the distributor timing is > 30 > > > > > degrees > > > > > > > > BTDC > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > TDC, > > > > > > > > > > > > > none for ATDC. I's really stange that I would have > to > > > move > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > crankshaft > > > > > > > > > > > > > back two teeth to fix the problem, all logic says > that > > > the > > > > > > > > > crankshaft > > > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > > camshaft should be set to thier respective timing > > marks. > > > > > Does > > > > > > > > > anybody > > > > > > > > > > > any > > > > > > > > > > > > > any advice as I'm still dealing with this problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One possibility is a clogged or defective EGR valve. > If > > > you > > > > > open > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > valve > > > > > > > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > > > > > hand when it's cool it should remain open when you > cover > > > the > > > > > > > vacuum > > > > > > > > > > nipple > > > > > > > > > > > > with a spare finger. If you open the valve by hand > with > > > the > > > > > > engine > > > > > > > > > > running > > > > > > > > > > > > (before it gets hot), the idle should drop and/or > > > > > stumble/stall. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Does this engine have some sort of air injection into > > the > > > > > > exhaust > > > > > > > > > > manifold > > > > > > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > > > > > well as into the cat? If so, the diverter valve may be > > > shot > > > > > and > > > > > > > it's > > > > > > > > > > > pumping > > > > > > > > > > > > air into the manifold all the time. If your exhaust is > > too > > > > > rich > > > > > > > > > > (misfire), > > > > > > > > > > > > this would > > > > > > > > > > > > cause the glowing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I suspect that your cat was an empty canister when you > > > > removed > > > > > > it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > |
Re: Red Hot Exhaust Manifold
My gut feeling is that it's still the lack of advance on the distributor
at high speeds resulting in too much unburned HCs. The vacuum advance is available from Hyundai as a separate part for an unknown price (their parts website is down right now). There are 2 parts numbers, one for an automatic tranny, the other for manual. Or once again you can check out a local junkyard for a lot less. After writing the above, I went to http://www.hmaservice.com/webtech/ and selected a 1988 Excel and looked at the TSB's. Under Fuel System there's a great article (V1-30-002) explaining how feedback carbs from 1986 and later work, along with lots of diagrams. For the 2 nipples on the distributor, one is for normal vacuum advance, the other is for additional advance when the engine is cold or at high altitudes. I can't tell from your description which one of the two is broken, but you can: When the engine is warm, there should be no suction at either of the two hoses connected to the advance at idle. If you rev up the engine, there should be vacuum at one hose but not the other. This one is the normal advance hose, the other is therefore the cold advance hose and will only have vacuum when the car is cold, even at idle. If the cold advance nipple is the one that doesn't hold vacuum, then you'll only have cold driveability problems. If the normal advance nipple is the one that's shot, you're not getting enough advance at highway speeds. If this is the case, I'd try switching the two hoses temporarily to see if it eliminates the red-hot manifold problem. Once you've got that fixed, I'd check out the O2 sensor next. If you've never changed it, it's probably burnt out after all these years. You can test it by using a digital voltmeter (not an analog!) to see if it produces voltage at the connector when the car is fully warmed up. No voltage = dead sensor, and the computer thinks the mixture is too rich and tries to lean it out. I'm not sure how it's done on your carburated engine. Aftermarket O2 sensors are fine, but you need an impact wrench and a lot of penetrating oil (or a torch) to get the old one out of the exhaust manifold without breaking it off. And finally you can always try finishing cleaning out the EGR passage in the intake manifold. But do try fixing up the distributor first. Bob "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message news:vs0cia2l0rva74@corp.supernews.com... > Update: > Took the distributor apart, the governor weights were stuck, they moved but > barely. So I cleaned the governor weights, spindle and greased them up. The > weights move more freely now, which was part of my problem. The breaker > plate was also sticking a little, cleaned it up and greased it, adjusted the > igniter (.030 ") > I think that I might have to replace the vacuum advance module as it doesn't > seem to move to much. With a vacuum line attached to the bottom nipple, > sucking (with my mouth as a don't have a hand pump) on the line to build up > pressure, the igniter advances, but not very much, maybe 2 or 3 mm. The top > nipple doesn't hold any vacuum at all. The car is definitely working better > now. I set the ignition timing to 4 degrees BTDC, now there is no back > firing. With the engine warmed up, timing light attached, revved the engine, > observed the timing advancing properly. Before I fixed the distributor the > timing was actually going to ATDC 1 or 2 degrees and then advancing BTDC 5 > to 10 degrees, as I revved the engine. Took the car for a drive down the > road, brought it up to 130 Kph for 15 min, stopped and the exhaust manifold > is still red hot. Drove back home in over drive at 100Kph, the exhaust > manifold isn't red hot. I'm still baffled, any suggestions? > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message > news:bphc9g$pmn$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com... > > Before you go out and get a distributor, please check out the > > 1988 Excel service manual online at www.hmaservice.com/webtech . > > Select your car (1988, not 86) and click on "Shop". Under > > "Engine Electrical System" read the specs on page 2, then read > > about the distributor on page 30. > > > > I was surprised to read that the mechanical advance for this dist > > is only 5° at 2500 rpm, and tops out at 16° at 6000 rpm. This > > probably explains why things don't glow when you drive at 2500 rpms > > (there's enough advance) but do at higher speeds (not enough). > > Vacuum advance ranges from 0° to 23° tops. > > > > When you tested the advance, you probably didn't rev the engine > > much past 3000, which sounds pretty fast at in neutral. 5° is > > not a lot of movement when looking with a standard timing light. > > > > Don't concern yourself too much with the EGR opening when cold. > > It's not serious, and will only cause hesitation and poor performance > > until the engine warms up. And don't worry about the EGR being > > open at full throttle. EGR works off of ported vacuum, which is > > highest at about 1/2 throttle, dropping to zero when fully closed or > > fully open. It's difficult to see what fully open is like when the car > > is in neutral, because it revs too fast too quickly. > > > > I'd concentrate on the distributor first. Recheck the mechanical > > advance with the vacuum hoses removed & plugged. Then reconnect > > the hoses and there should be a lot more advance than before. > > If not, make sure there's vacuum at the hoses when you open > > the throttle. Follow the hoses back to their source, which may be > > the same defective thermal switch that's also running the EGR. > > Or, you may have mixed up the hoses where they attach to that > > switch. I haven't checked, but the online manual probably has > > vacuum routing diagrams too. > > > > Good luck. > > > > Bob > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message > > news:vrm700o5qd4b82@corp.supernews.com... > > > Lots of hills here Bob, My girlfriend is a valley girl : ) > > > Saskatchewan is hilly (most of it) there is a ski hill down the road > from > > > us. > > > Now, Manitoba is flat, watch your dog run away for a week. : ) > > > > > > Actually the car has good acceleration all the way up to 130Kph > > > I'll try blocking the secondary air control valve, never thought to try > > > that. > > > I'm not sure I agree that the car would be pinging with the distributor > > set > > > to 12% BTDC as most cars are set to 10% BTDC, I don't trust the Haynes > > > manual, nor the emissions sticker (4% BTDC) on the underside of the > hood, > > > however I do agree that I might have a distributor problem. I'll check > > that > > > out tomorrow. One thing to note: I tried 4% BTDC and the car was > > backfiring, > > > asuming (crankshaft is at it's respective timing mark) so the > distributor > > > could be the problem. > > > > > > One thing I tried tonight was, have the GF revv the car to 2,500 RPM and > > > observ the ERG valve, it opens up all the way when the car is stone > cold. > > > The Haynes manual says that the ERG shouldn't open (up to 2,500RPM cold > > > engine) when the engine is cold, if, it does, then the thermo valve has > to > > > be replaced. The ERG vacuum is controled by the thermo valve, engine > heats > > > up and the thermo valve applies vacuum to the ERG if the temp is hot > > enough > > > (185degrees), and engine is revved past 2,500 RPM. The ERG does open up > > all > > > the way when the engine is warm/hot. Also the manual says that the ERG > > valve > > > shouldn't open at full throttle if the engine is hot. The ERG opens up > > fully > > > when I revv the engine to full throttle (hot or cold), but not at idle. > > I'm > > > thinking that the problem may be the ERG opening at the wrong times. > > > > > > Another thing I tried tonight was, drive the car down the highway really > > > fast, checked the exhaust manifold, red hot, drove back home in over > > drive, > > > at low RPM (2,500RPM) around 80Kph for about 20 min. Checked the > > > manifold,,,,wahoooo!!! it doesn't look like a bright red cherry tomato. > > LOL > > > So, the problem is only occuring at 3/4 and full throttle. > > > I'll double check the routing of the vacume hoses, if no go, then check > > the > > > distributor and or find a used one, if no go, order a thermo valve. > > > Unfortunately, the dammmm Haynes manual only shows the ERG diagram for a > > 88 > > > and up, I'll have to go by that diagram. > > > > > > Thanks for the help, at least I have a troubleshooting path to follow > now. > > > I'll try your suggestions tomorrow and get back to you. At least I don't > > > feel like driving the car off of a cliff now! > > > > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message > > > news:bpeu90$h9p$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com... > > > > Yeah. It doesn't take much spark to keep a car going at highway > > > > speed. And you don't have much in the way of hills out there either. > > > > So 12% advance is enough to keep the engine running at fairly > > > > low rpms, say 2000-2500 at 80kph in high gear. But I bet your > > > > acceleration really sucks. > > > > > And even though the engine is running, there's a LOT of unburned > > > > HC's going out the exhaust and heating up your manifold. > > > > You still might want to try blocking off the secondary air hose before > > > > you fix this problem just to see if the glowing stops. > > > > > > > > The return springs in the distributor are probably broken or > > > > streched out (just like that throttle return spring), so the dist > > > > is stuck at full mechanical advance and you've compensated for > > > > it. But you also have vacuum advance when the throttle is open, > > > > and that plus the 12% keeps things running, sort of, on the highway. > > > > If the mechanical advance actually worked, your engine would be > > > > knocking (pinging) like crazy on regular gas. > > > > > > > > A brand new distributor assembly is $340 from Hyundai, or a lot > > > > less used from a junkyard. Part number is 27100-21430 for a > > > > manual, and 27100-21440 for an automatic tranny. Any dist from > > > > a carburated Excel from 86 and later will work if it has the same > > > > tranny as yours. (Timing advance curves differ slightly between > > > > the two.) It's a shame, but there was a guy on Ebay trying to > > > > get rid of a couple of these Excel distributors a few months ago > > > > for next to nothing. I checked, but there's nothing out there right > > > > now or in the last 30 days (just a couple of different auctions for > > > > a 91 Scoupe dist, not compatible). > > > > > > > > I wouldn't bother with the EGR passage right now. Find a > > > > used distributor first. > > > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message > > > > news:vrl4pm8t4ijfe2@corp.supernews.com... > > > > > Hey Bob, me thinks I got it figured out. > > > > > I think the whole problem is timing advance. Remember I was saying > > that > > > I > > > > > have to set the crankshaft back two teeth to eliminate the glowing > red > > > > > exhaust manifold problem. Currently I've left the crankshaft at a > half > > > of > > > > a > > > > > tooth backwards (as close to timing mark as I can) and the > distributor > > > > > timing has been left at 10% BTDC (book says 4%) > > > > > If I change the distributor timing to 4% BTDC, the problem gets > worse > > > and > > > > > the car has hardly any power on the highway. Checked the spark plugs > > and > > > > now > > > > > they are black. Changed the distributor to 12% BTDC, plugs are > > starting > > > to > > > > > go to a dark tan colour. I'm thinking that the timing isn't > advancing > > > > enough > > > > > (when driving down the highway) because, either shifting the > > crankshaft > > > > back > > > > > two teeth or, with the crankshaft back half a tooth, advancing the > > > > > distributor timing to 12% BTDC, has the same effect. I checked the > > > > > distributor timing, with a timing light (12%BTDC) and revved the > > engine, > > > > the > > > > > timing doesn't seem to move much from the timing mark IE: the timing > > > blur > > > > on > > > > > the crankshaft pulley doesn't go advance to say 20% BTDC > > > > > Now here is where things don't make sense, how can I wipp down the > > road > > > at > > > > > 140Kph if the timing isn't advancing? Maybe it's because I've set > the > > > > timing > > > > > to 12% BTDC???? |
Re: Red Hot Exhaust Manifold
Ok we'll do that
I'm pretty sure both chambers should hold vacuum, it's the top chamber that doesn't hold any vacuum at all. I'll try the local wrecker, but the last time I was there they had 4 Excels but all were missing the engines, just my luck. I'll call them on Monday. I tried to reverse the vacuum lines (sorry I forgot to mention that) it didn't solve the problem. The 86 model doesn't have a O2 sensor. I'll try the wrecker, or buy a new part for the car. Again the problem does disappear if I drive slow (100 Kph) on the highway. Mike "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message news:bpqrf3$rj7$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com... > My gut feeling is that it's still the lack of advance on the distributor > at high speeds resulting in too much unburned HCs. The vacuum > advance is available from Hyundai as a separate part for an > unknown price (their parts website is down right now). There are > 2 parts numbers, one for an automatic tranny, the other for manual. > Or once again you can check out a local junkyard for a lot less. > > After writing the above, I went to http://www.hmaservice.com/webtech/ > and selected a 1988 Excel and looked at the TSB's. > > Under Fuel System there's a great article (V1-30-002) explaining how > feedback > carbs from 1986 and later work, along with lots of diagrams. > For the 2 nipples on the distributor, one is for normal vacuum > advance, the other is for additional advance when the engine > is cold or at high altitudes. I can't tell from your description which > one of the two is broken, but you can: > > When the engine is warm, there should be no suction at either of > the two hoses connected to the advance at idle. If you rev up the > engine, there should be vacuum at one hose but not the other. > This one is the normal advance hose, the other is therefore the > cold advance hose and will only have vacuum when the car is > cold, even at idle. If the cold advance nipple is the one that > doesn't hold vacuum, then you'll only have cold driveability > problems. If the normal advance nipple is the one that's shot, > you're not getting enough advance at highway speeds. If this > is the case, I'd try switching the two hoses temporarily to see > if it eliminates the red-hot manifold problem. > > Once you've got that fixed, I'd check out the O2 sensor next. If > you've never changed it, it's probably burnt out after all these > years. You can test it by using a digital voltmeter (not an analog!) > to see if it produces voltage at the connector when the car is > fully warmed up. No voltage = dead sensor, and the computer > thinks the mixture is too rich and tries to lean it out. I'm not sure > how it's done on your carburated engine. Aftermarket O2 sensors > are fine, but you need an impact wrench and a lot of penetrating > oil (or a torch) to get the old one out of the exhaust manifold > without breaking it off. > > And finally you can always try finishing cleaning out the EGR > passage in the intake manifold. > > But do try fixing up the distributor first. > > Bob > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message > news:vs0cia2l0rva74@corp.supernews.com... > > Update: > > Took the distributor apart, the governor weights were stuck, they moved > but > > barely. So I cleaned the governor weights, spindle and greased them up. > The > > weights move more freely now, which was part of my problem. The breaker > > plate was also sticking a little, cleaned it up and greased it, adjusted > the > > igniter (.030 ") > > I think that I might have to replace the vacuum advance module as it > doesn't > > seem to move to much. With a vacuum line attached to the bottom nipple, > > sucking (with my mouth as a don't have a hand pump) on the line to build > up > > pressure, the igniter advances, but not very much, maybe 2 or 3 mm. The > top > > nipple doesn't hold any vacuum at all. The car is definitely working > better > > now. I set the ignition timing to 4 degrees BTDC, now there is no back > > firing. With the engine warmed up, timing light attached, revved the > engine, > > observed the timing advancing properly. Before I fixed the distributor the > > timing was actually going to ATDC 1 or 2 degrees and then advancing BTDC 5 > > to 10 degrees, as I revved the engine. Took the car for a drive down the > > road, brought it up to 130 Kph for 15 min, stopped and the exhaust > manifold > > is still red hot. Drove back home in over drive at 100Kph, the exhaust > > manifold isn't red hot. I'm still baffled, any suggestions? > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message > > news:bphc9g$pmn$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com... > > > Before you go out and get a distributor, please check out the > > > 1988 Excel service manual online at www.hmaservice.com/webtech . > > > Select your car (1988, not 86) and click on "Shop". Under > > > "Engine Electrical System" read the specs on page 2, then read > > > about the distributor on page 30. > > > > > > I was surprised to read that the mechanical advance for this dist > > > is only 5° at 2500 rpm, and tops out at 16° at 6000 rpm. This > > > probably explains why things don't glow when you drive at 2500 rpms > > > (there's enough advance) but do at higher speeds (not enough). > > > Vacuum advance ranges from 0° to 23° tops. > > > > > > When you tested the advance, you probably didn't rev the engine > > > much past 3000, which sounds pretty fast at in neutral. 5° is > > > not a lot of movement when looking with a standard timing light. > > > > > > Don't concern yourself too much with the EGR opening when cold. > > > It's not serious, and will only cause hesitation and poor performance > > > until the engine warms up. And don't worry about the EGR being > > > open at full throttle. EGR works off of ported vacuum, which is > > > highest at about 1/2 throttle, dropping to zero when fully closed or > > > fully open. It's difficult to see what fully open is like when the car > > > is in neutral, because it revs too fast too quickly. > > > > > > I'd concentrate on the distributor first. Recheck the mechanical > > > advance with the vacuum hoses removed & plugged. Then reconnect > > > the hoses and there should be a lot more advance than before. > > > If not, make sure there's vacuum at the hoses when you open > > > the throttle. Follow the hoses back to their source, which may be > > > the same defective thermal switch that's also running the EGR. > > > Or, you may have mixed up the hoses where they attach to that > > > switch. I haven't checked, but the online manual probably has > > > vacuum routing diagrams too. > > > > > > Good luck. > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message > > > news:vrm700o5qd4b82@corp.supernews.com... > > > > Lots of hills here Bob, My girlfriend is a valley girl : ) > > > > Saskatchewan is hilly (most of it) there is a ski hill down the road > > from > > > > us. > > > > Now, Manitoba is flat, watch your dog run away for a week. : ) > > > > > > > > Actually the car has good acceleration all the way up to 130Kph > > > > I'll try blocking the secondary air control valve, never thought to > try > > > > that. > > > > I'm not sure I agree that the car would be pinging with the > distributor > > > set > > > > to 12% BTDC as most cars are set to 10% BTDC, I don't trust the Haynes > > > > manual, nor the emissions sticker (4% BTDC) on the underside of the > > hood, > > > > however I do agree that I might have a distributor problem. I'll check > > > that > > > > out tomorrow. One thing to note: I tried 4% BTDC and the car was > > > backfiring, > > > > asuming (crankshaft is at it's respective timing mark) so the > > distributor > > > > could be the problem. > > > > > > > > One thing I tried tonight was, have the GF revv the car to 2,500 RPM > and > > > > observ the ERG valve, it opens up all the way when the car is stone > > cold. > > > > The Haynes manual says that the ERG shouldn't open (up to 2,500RPM > cold > > > > engine) when the engine is cold, if, it does, then the thermo valve > has > > to > > > > be replaced. The ERG vacuum is controled by the thermo valve, engine > > heats > > > > up and the thermo valve applies vacuum to the ERG if the temp is hot > > > enough > > > > (185degrees), and engine is revved past 2,500 RPM. The ERG does open > up > > > all > > > > the way when the engine is warm/hot. Also the manual says that the ERG > > > valve > > > > shouldn't open at full throttle if the engine is hot. The ERG opens up > > > fully > > > > when I revv the engine to full throttle (hot or cold), but not at > idle. > > > I'm > > > > thinking that the problem may be the ERG opening at the wrong times. > > > > > > > > Another thing I tried tonight was, drive the car down the highway > really > > > > fast, checked the exhaust manifold, red hot, drove back home in over > > > drive, > > > > at low RPM (2,500RPM) around 80Kph for about 20 min. Checked the > > > > manifold,,,,wahoooo!!! it doesn't look like a bright red cherry > tomato. > > > LOL > > > > So, the problem is only occuring at 3/4 and full throttle. > > > > I'll double check the routing of the vacume hoses, if no go, then > check > > > the > > > > distributor and or find a used one, if no go, order a thermo valve. > > > > Unfortunately, the dammmm Haynes manual only shows the ERG diagram for > a > > > 88 > > > > and up, I'll have to go by that diagram. > > > > > > > > Thanks for the help, at least I have a troubleshooting path to follow > > now. > > > > I'll try your suggestions tomorrow and get back to you. At least I > don't > > > > feel like driving the car off of a cliff now! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message > > > > news:bpeu90$h9p$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com... > > > > > Yeah. It doesn't take much spark to keep a car going at highway > > > > > speed. And you don't have much in the way of hills out there either. > > > > > So 12% advance is enough to keep the engine running at fairly > > > > > low rpms, say 2000-2500 at 80kph in high gear. But I bet your > > > > > acceleration really sucks. > > > > > > And even though the engine is running, there's a LOT of unburned > > > > > HC's going out the exhaust and heating up your manifold. > > > > > You still might want to try blocking off the secondary air hose > before > > > > > you fix this problem just to see if the glowing stops. > > > > > > > > > > The return springs in the distributor are probably broken or > > > > > streched out (just like that throttle return spring), so the dist > > > > > is stuck at full mechanical advance and you've compensated for > > > > > it. But you also have vacuum advance when the throttle is open, > > > > > and that plus the 12% keeps things running, sort of, on the highway. > > > > > If the mechanical advance actually worked, your engine would be > > > > > knocking (pinging) like crazy on regular gas. > > > > > > > > > > A brand new distributor assembly is $340 from Hyundai, or a lot > > > > > less used from a junkyard. Part number is 27100-21430 for a > > > > > manual, and 27100-21440 for an automatic tranny. Any dist from > > > > > a carburated Excel from 86 and later will work if it has the same > > > > > tranny as yours. (Timing advance curves differ slightly between > > > > > the two.) It's a shame, but there was a guy on Ebay trying to > > > > > get rid of a couple of these Excel distributors a few months ago > > > > > for next to nothing. I checked, but there's nothing out there right > > > > > now or in the last 30 days (just a couple of different auctions for > > > > > a 91 Scoupe dist, not compatible). > > > > > > > > > > I wouldn't bother with the EGR passage right now. Find a > > > > > used distributor first. > > > > > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message > > > > > news:vrl4pm8t4ijfe2@corp.supernews.com... > > > > > > Hey Bob, me thinks I got it figured out. > > > > > > I think the whole problem is timing advance. Remember I was saying > > > that > > > > I > > > > > > have to set the crankshaft back two teeth to eliminate the glowing > > red > > > > > > exhaust manifold problem. Currently I've left the crankshaft at a > > half > > > > of > > > > > a > > > > > > tooth backwards (as close to timing mark as I can) and the > > distributor > > > > > > timing has been left at 10% BTDC (book says 4%) > > > > > > If I change the distributor timing to 4% BTDC, the problem gets > > worse > > > > and > > > > > > the car has hardly any power on the highway. Checked the spark > plugs > > > and > > > > > now > > > > > > they are black. Changed the distributor to 12% BTDC, plugs are > > > starting > > > > to > > > > > > go to a dark tan colour. I'm thinking that the timing isn't > > advancing > > > > > enough > > > > > > (when driving down the highway) because, either shifting the > > > crankshaft > > > > > back > > > > > > two teeth or, with the crankshaft back half a tooth, advancing the > > > > > > distributor timing to 12% BTDC, has the same effect. I checked the > > > > > > distributor timing, with a timing light (12%BTDC) and revved the > > > engine, > > > > > the > > > > > > timing doesn't seem to move much from the timing mark IE: the > timing > > > > blur > > > > > on > > > > > > the crankshaft pulley doesn't go advance to say 20% BTDC > > > > > > Now here is where things don't make sense, how can I wipp down the > > > road > > > > at > > > > > > 140Kph if the timing isn't advancing? Maybe it's because I've set > > the > > > > > timing > > > > > > to 12% BTDC???? > > |
Re: Red Hot Exhaust Manifold
Just for my own curiosity, I did a google search on Red Hot Exhaust
Manifold, and was sort of surprised to see this thread near the top. But further down, there's a variety of opinions as to the cause. The most common ones are: mixture too lean, timing retarded, burnt or leaky exhaust valves, mixture too rich. You're currently working on the 2nd one, but I was wondering when you replaced the head gasket (properly) if the valve clearance was set properly when you put things back together? If it's too tight, the valves may start to burn, and they might start to float (not seat for long enough) at high rpms? You should check the clearances, 4 valves at a time at TDC and then the other 4 after turning the engine over to the next TDC. The engine should be fully warmed up but not overheated. It's better for the gap to be slightly looser than too tight. Also, I assume all the valve springs were in decent shape, none shorter than the others. I ask this because I made this mistake on a Datsun about 15 years ago. It ran perfectly for 10 miles on the highway until it just died, no warning. Started right up a few hours later after it had cooled down completely. Seems that I had set the cold clearance properly, but should have simply warmed it up in the driveway for 10 minutes, not taken it out on the road before setting the hot clearance. Bob "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message news:vs24m41bomh112@corp.supernews.com... > Ok we'll do that > I'm pretty sure both chambers should hold vacuum, it's the top chamber that > doesn't hold any vacuum at all. I'll try the local wrecker, but the last > time I was there they had 4 Excels but all were missing the engines, just my > luck. I'll call them on Monday. I tried to reverse the vacuum lines (sorry I > forgot to mention that) it didn't solve the problem. The 86 model doesn't > have a O2 sensor. I'll try the wrecker, or buy a new part for the car. Again > the problem does disappear if I drive slow (100 Kph) on the highway. > > Mike > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message > news:bpqrf3$rj7$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com... > > My gut feeling is that it's still the lack of advance on the distributor > > at high speeds resulting in too much unburned HCs. The vacuum > > advance is available from Hyundai as a separate part for an > > unknown price (their parts website is down right now). There are > > 2 parts numbers, one for an automatic tranny, the other for manual. > > Or once again you can check out a local junkyard for a lot less. > > > > After writing the above, I went to http://www.hmaservice.com/webtech/ > > and selected a 1988 Excel and looked at the TSB's. > > > > Under Fuel System there's a great article (V1-30-002) explaining how > > feedback > > carbs from 1986 and later work, along with lots of diagrams. > > For the 2 nipples on the distributor, one is for normal vacuum > > advance, the other is for additional advance when the engine > > is cold or at high altitudes. I can't tell from your description which > > one of the two is broken, but you can: > > > > When the engine is warm, there should be no suction at either of > > the two hoses connected to the advance at idle. If you rev up the > > engine, there should be vacuum at one hose but not the other. > > This one is the normal advance hose, the other is therefore the > > cold advance hose and will only have vacuum when the car is > > cold, even at idle. If the cold advance nipple is the one that > > doesn't hold vacuum, then you'll only have cold driveability > > problems. If the normal advance nipple is the one that's shot, > > you're not getting enough advance at highway speeds. If this > > is the case, I'd try switching the two hoses temporarily to see > > if it eliminates the red-hot manifold problem. > > > > Once you've got that fixed, I'd check out the O2 sensor next. If > > you've never changed it, it's probably burnt out after all these > > years. You can test it by using a digital voltmeter (not an analog!) > > to see if it produces voltage at the connector when the car is > > fully warmed up. No voltage = dead sensor, and the computer > > thinks the mixture is too rich and tries to lean it out. I'm not sure > > how it's done on your carburated engine. Aftermarket O2 sensors > > are fine, but you need an impact wrench and a lot of penetrating > > oil (or a torch) to get the old one out of the exhaust manifold > > without breaking it off. > > > > And finally you can always try finishing cleaning out the EGR > > passage in the intake manifold. > > > > But do try fixing up the distributor first. > > > > Bob > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message > > news:vs0cia2l0rva74@corp.supernews.com... > > > Update: > > > Took the distributor apart, the governor weights were stuck, they moved > > but > > > barely. So I cleaned the governor weights, spindle and greased them up. > > The > > > weights move more freely now, which was part of my problem. The breaker > > > plate was also sticking a little, cleaned it up and greased it, adjusted > > the > > > igniter (.030 ") > > > I think that I might have to replace the vacuum advance module as it > > doesn't > > > seem to move to much. With a vacuum line attached to the bottom nipple, > > > sucking (with my mouth as a don't have a hand pump) on the line to build > > up > > > pressure, the igniter advances, but not very much, maybe 2 or 3 mm. The > > top > > > nipple doesn't hold any vacuum at all. The car is definitely working > > better > > > now. I set the ignition timing to 4 degrees BTDC, now there is no back > > > firing. With the engine warmed up, timing light attached, revved the > > engine, > > > observed the timing advancing properly. Before I fixed the distributor > the > > > timing was actually going to ATDC 1 or 2 degrees and then advancing BTDC > 5 > > > to 10 degrees, as I revved the engine. Took the car for a drive down the > > > road, brought it up to 130 Kph for 15 min, stopped and the exhaust > > manifold > > > is still red hot. Drove back home in over drive at 100Kph, the exhaust > > > manifold isn't red hot. I'm still baffled, any suggestions? > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message > > > news:bphc9g$pmn$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com... > > > > Before you go out and get a distributor, please check out the > > > > 1988 Excel service manual online at www.hmaservice.com/webtech . > > > > Select your car (1988, not 86) and click on "Shop". Under > > > > "Engine Electrical System" read the specs on page 2, then read > > > > about the distributor on page 30. > > > > > > > > I was surprised to read that the mechanical advance for this dist > > > > is only 5° at 2500 rpm, and tops out at 16° at 6000 rpm. This > > > > probably explains why things don't glow when you drive at 2500 rpms > > > > (there's enough advance) but do at higher speeds (not enough). > > > > Vacuum advance ranges from 0° to 23° tops. > > > > > > > > When you tested the advance, you probably didn't rev the engine > > > > much past 3000, which sounds pretty fast at in neutral. 5° is > > > > not a lot of movement when looking with a standard timing light. > > > > > > > > Don't concern yourself too much with the EGR opening when cold. > > > > It's not serious, and will only cause hesitation and poor performance > > > > until the engine warms up. And don't worry about the EGR being > > > > open at full throttle. EGR works off of ported vacuum, which is > > > > highest at about 1/2 throttle, dropping to zero when fully closed or > > > > fully open. It's difficult to see what fully open is like when the car > > > > is in neutral, because it revs too fast too quickly. > > > > > > > > I'd concentrate on the distributor first. Recheck the mechanical > > > > advance with the vacuum hoses removed & plugged. Then reconnect > > > > the hoses and there should be a lot more advance than before. > > > > If not, make sure there's vacuum at the hoses when you open > > > > the throttle. Follow the hoses back to their source, which may be > > > > the same defective thermal switch that's also running the EGR. > > > > Or, you may have mixed up the hoses where they attach to that > > > > switch. I haven't checked, but the online manual probably has > > > > vacuum routing diagrams too. > > > > > > > > Good luck. > > > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message > > > > news:vrm700o5qd4b82@corp.supernews.com... > > > > > Lots of hills here Bob, My girlfriend is a valley girl : ) > > > > > Saskatchewan is hilly (most of it) there is a ski hill down the road > > > from > > > > > us. > > > > > Now, Manitoba is flat, watch your dog run away for a week. : ) > > > > > > > > > > Actually the car has good acceleration all the way up to 130Kph > > > > > I'll try blocking the secondary air control valve, never thought to > > try > > > > > that. > > > > > I'm not sure I agree that the car would be pinging with the > > distributor > > > > set > > > > > to 12% BTDC as most cars are set to 10% BTDC, I don't trust the > Haynes > > > > > manual, nor the emissions sticker (4% BTDC) on the underside of the > > > hood, > > > > > however I do agree that I might have a distributor problem. I'll > check > > > > that > > > > > out tomorrow. One thing to note: I tried 4% BTDC and the car was > > > > backfiring, > > > > > asuming (crankshaft is at it's respective timing mark) so the > > > distributor > > > > > could be the problem. > > > > > > > > > > One thing I tried tonight was, have the GF revv the car to 2,500 RPM > > and > > > > > observ the ERG valve, it opens up all the way when the car is stone > > > cold. > > > > > The Haynes manual says that the ERG shouldn't open (up to 2,500RPM > > cold > > > > > engine) when the engine is cold, if, it does, then the thermo valve > > has > > > to > > > > > be replaced. The ERG vacuum is controled by the thermo valve, engine > > > heats > > > > > up and the thermo valve applies vacuum to the ERG if the temp is hot > > > > enough > > > > > (185degrees), and engine is revved past 2,500 RPM. The ERG does open > > up > > > > all > > > > > the way when the engine is warm/hot. Also the manual says that the > ERG > > > > valve > > > > > shouldn't open at full throttle if the engine is hot. The ERG opens > up > > > > fully > > > > > when I revv the engine to full throttle (hot or cold), but not at > > idle. > > > > I'm > > > > > thinking that the problem may be the ERG opening at the wrong times. > > > > > > > > > > Another thing I tried tonight was, drive the car down the highway > > really > > > > > fast, checked the exhaust manifold, red hot, drove back home in over > > > > drive, > > > > > at low RPM (2,500RPM) around 80Kph for about 20 min. Checked the > > > > > manifold,,,,wahoooo!!! it doesn't look like a bright red cherry > > tomato. > > > > LOL > > > > > So, the problem is only occuring at 3/4 and full throttle. > > > > > I'll double check the routing of the vacume hoses, if no go, then > > check > > > > the > > > > > distributor and or find a used one, if no go, order a thermo valve. > > > > > Unfortunately, the dammmm Haynes manual only shows the ERG diagram > for > > a > > > > 88 > > > > > and up, I'll have to go by that diagram. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the help, at least I have a troubleshooting path to > follow > > > now. > > > > > I'll try your suggestions tomorrow and get back to you. At least I > > don't > > > > > feel like driving the car off of a cliff now! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message > > > > > news:bpeu90$h9p$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com... > > > > > > Yeah. It doesn't take much spark to keep a car going at highway > > > > > > speed. And you don't have much in the way of hills out there > either. > > > > > > So 12% advance is enough to keep the engine running at fairly > > > > > > low rpms, say 2000-2500 at 80kph in high gear. But I bet your > > > > > > acceleration really sucks. > > > > > > > And even though the engine is running, there's a LOT of unburned > > > > > > HC's going out the exhaust and heating up your manifold. > > > > > > You still might want to try blocking off the secondary air hose > > before > > > > > > you fix this problem just to see if the glowing stops. > > > > > > > > > > > > The return springs in the distributor are probably broken or > > > > > > streched out (just like that throttle return spring), so the dist > > > > > > is stuck at full mechanical advance and you've compensated for > > > > > > it. But you also have vacuum advance when the throttle is open, > > > > > > and that plus the 12% keeps things running, sort of, on the > highway. > > > > > > If the mechanical advance actually worked, your engine would be > > > > > > knocking (pinging) like crazy on regular gas. > > > > > > > > > > > > A brand new distributor assembly is $340 from Hyundai, or a lot > > > > > > less used from a junkyard. Part number is 27100-21430 for a > > > > > > manual, and 27100-21440 for an automatic tranny. Any dist from > > > > > > a carburated Excel from 86 and later will work if it has the same > > > > > > tranny as yours. (Timing advance curves differ slightly between > > > > > > the two.) It's a shame, but there was a guy on Ebay trying to > > > > > > get rid of a couple of these Excel distributors a few months ago > > > > > > for next to nothing. I checked, but there's nothing out there > right > > > > > > now or in the last 30 days (just a couple of different auctions > for > > > > > > a 91 Scoupe dist, not compatible). > > > > > > > > > > > > I wouldn't bother with the EGR passage right now. Find a > > > > > > used distributor first. > > > > > > > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message > > > > > > news:vrl4pm8t4ijfe2@corp.supernews.com... > > > > > > > Hey Bob, me thinks I got it figured out. > > > > > > > I think the whole problem is timing advance. Remember I was > saying > > > > that > > > > > I > > > > > > > have to set the crankshaft back two teeth to eliminate the > glowing > > > red > > > > > > > exhaust manifold problem. Currently I've left the crankshaft at > a > > > half > > > > > of > > > > > > a > > > > > > > tooth backwards (as close to timing mark as I can) and the > > > distributor > > > > > > > timing has been left at 10% BTDC (book says 4%) > > > > > > > If I change the distributor timing to 4% BTDC, the problem gets > > > worse > > > > > and > > > > > > > the car has hardly any power on the highway. Checked the spark > > plugs > > > > and > > > > > > now > > > > > > > they are black. Changed the distributor to 12% BTDC, plugs are > > > > starting > > > > > to > > > > > > > go to a dark tan colour. I'm thinking that the timing isn't > > > advancing > > > > > > enough > > > > > > > (when driving down the highway) because, either shifting the > > > > crankshaft > > > > > > back > > > > > > > two teeth or, with the crankshaft back half a tooth, advancing > the > > > > > > > distributor timing to 12% BTDC, has the same effect. I checked > the > > > > > > > distributor timing, with a timing light (12%BTDC) and revved the > > > > engine, > > > > > > the > > > > > > > timing doesn't seem to move much from the timing mark IE: the > > timing > > > > > blur > > > > > > on > > > > > > > the crankshaft pulley doesn't go advance to say 20% BTDC > > > > > > > Now here is where things don't make sense, how can I wipp down > the > > > > road > > > > > at > > > > > > > 140Kph if the timing isn't advancing? Maybe it's because I've > set > > > the > > > > > > timing > > > > > > > to 12% BTDC???? > > > > > > |
Re: Red Hot Exhaust Manifold
Ya I also did a Google search for my problem and found various reason why
this is happening. More often then not, the problem was timing. But what's got me concerned is the fact that, the problem doesn't happen when I drive around 100Kph, Surely it could be that I do have a defective vacuum advance module, but why at full throttle? Today I'll be checking out a local wrecker for another distributor or engine. I wish the problem was burnt or leaky valves because the car would perform quite badly and the solution is obvious. When I installed the new head gasket, I looked at the valves, there was quite a bit left on the valve margins, so I assumed that the valves were ok. Again the mixture cannot be too rich as the spark plugs are a tan colour. As far as the valve clearances go, I originally set them loose, because I thought that the valves weren't closing. After I determined that wasn't the problem, I set them when the engine was cold, I just added another thousand to the measurement to compensate for the engine being cold. Not sure of the condition of the valve springs. If I don't have any luck with the distributor, I'll try setting the valves to the hot clearances, if no go, I'm going to bring the car to a friend's heated garage so I can tear the whole thing down. I did mention that the car is running better now? LOL Mike "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message news:bprum5$sd5$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com... > Just for my own curiosity, I did a google search on Red Hot Exhaust > Manifold, and was sort of surprised to see this thread near the top. > But further down, there's a variety of opinions as to the cause. The > most common ones are: mixture too lean, timing retarded, burnt or > leaky exhaust valves, mixture too rich. > > You're currently working on the 2nd one, but I was wondering when > you replaced the head gasket (properly) if the valve clearance was > set properly when you put things back together? If it's too tight, the > valves may start to burn, and they might start to float (not seat for > long enough) at high rpms? You should check the clearances, 4 > valves at a time at TDC and then the other 4 after turning the engine > over to the next TDC. The engine should be fully warmed up but > not overheated. It's better for the gap to be slightly looser than too > tight. Also, I assume all the valve springs were in decent shape, > none shorter than the others. I ask this because I made this mistake > on a Datsun about 15 years ago. It ran perfectly for 10 miles on the > highway until it just died, no warning. Started right up a few hours > later after it had cooled down completely. Seems that I had set the > cold clearance properly, but should have simply warmed it up in > the driveway for 10 minutes, not taken it out on the road before > setting the hot clearance. > > Bob > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message > news:vs24m41bomh112@corp.supernews.com... > > Ok we'll do that > > I'm pretty sure both chambers should hold vacuum, it's the top chamber > that > > doesn't hold any vacuum at all. I'll try the local wrecker, but the last > > time I was there they had 4 Excels but all were missing the engines, just > my > > luck. I'll call them on Monday. I tried to reverse the vacuum lines (sorry > I > > forgot to mention that) it didn't solve the problem. The 86 model doesn't > > have a O2 sensor. I'll try the wrecker, or buy a new part for the car. > Again > > the problem does disappear if I drive slow (100 Kph) on the highway. > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message > > news:bpqrf3$rj7$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com... > > > My gut feeling is that it's still the lack of advance on the distributor > > > at high speeds resulting in too much unburned HCs. The vacuum > > > advance is available from Hyundai as a separate part for an > > > unknown price (their parts website is down right now). There are > > > 2 parts numbers, one for an automatic tranny, the other for manual. > > > Or once again you can check out a local junkyard for a lot less. > > > > > > After writing the above, I went to http://www.hmaservice.com/webtech/ > > > and selected a 1988 Excel and looked at the TSB's. > > > > > > Under Fuel System there's a great article (V1-30-002) explaining how > > > feedback > > > carbs from 1986 and later work, along with lots of diagrams. > > > For the 2 nipples on the distributor, one is for normal vacuum > > > advance, the other is for additional advance when the engine > > > is cold or at high altitudes. I can't tell from your description which > > > one of the two is broken, but you can: > > > > > > When the engine is warm, there should be no suction at either of > > > the two hoses connected to the advance at idle. If you rev up the > > > engine, there should be vacuum at one hose but not the other. > > > This one is the normal advance hose, the other is therefore the > > > cold advance hose and will only have vacuum when the car is > > > cold, even at idle. If the cold advance nipple is the one that > > > doesn't hold vacuum, then you'll only have cold driveability > > > problems. If the normal advance nipple is the one that's shot, > > > you're not getting enough advance at highway speeds. If this > > > is the case, I'd try switching the two hoses temporarily to see > > > if it eliminates the red-hot manifold problem. > > > > > > Once you've got that fixed, I'd check out the O2 sensor next. If > > > you've never changed it, it's probably burnt out after all these > > > years. You can test it by using a digital voltmeter (not an analog!) > > > to see if it produces voltage at the connector when the car is > > > fully warmed up. No voltage = dead sensor, and the computer > > > thinks the mixture is too rich and tries to lean it out. I'm not sure > > > how it's done on your carburated engine. Aftermarket O2 sensors > > > are fine, but you need an impact wrench and a lot of penetrating > > > oil (or a torch) to get the old one out of the exhaust manifold > > > without breaking it off. > > > > > > And finally you can always try finishing cleaning out the EGR > > > passage in the intake manifold. > > > > > > But do try fixing up the distributor first. > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message > > > news:vs0cia2l0rva74@corp.supernews.com... > > > > Update: > > > > Took the distributor apart, the governor weights were stuck, they > moved > > > but > > > > barely. So I cleaned the governor weights, spindle and greased them > up. > > > The > > > > weights move more freely now, which was part of my problem. The > breaker > > > > plate was also sticking a little, cleaned it up and greased it, > adjusted > > > the > > > > igniter (.030 ") > > > > I think that I might have to replace the vacuum advance module as it > > > doesn't > > > > seem to move to much. With a vacuum line attached to the bottom > nipple, > > > > sucking (with my mouth as a don't have a hand pump) on the line to > build > > > up > > > > pressure, the igniter advances, but not very much, maybe 2 or 3 mm. > The > > > top > > > > nipple doesn't hold any vacuum at all. The car is definitely working > > > better > > > > now. I set the ignition timing to 4 degrees BTDC, now there is no back > > > > firing. With the engine warmed up, timing light attached, revved the > > > engine, > > > > observed the timing advancing properly. Before I fixed the distributor > > the > > > > timing was actually going to ATDC 1 or 2 degrees and then advancing > BTDC > > 5 > > > > to 10 degrees, as I revved the engine. Took the car for a drive down > the > > > > road, brought it up to 130 Kph for 15 min, stopped and the exhaust > > > manifold > > > > is still red hot. Drove back home in over drive at 100Kph, the exhaust > > > > manifold isn't red hot. I'm still baffled, any suggestions? > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message > > > > news:bphc9g$pmn$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com... > > > > > Before you go out and get a distributor, please check out the > > > > > 1988 Excel service manual online at www.hmaservice.com/webtech . > > > > > Select your car (1988, not 86) and click on "Shop". Under > > > > > "Engine Electrical System" read the specs on page 2, then read > > > > > about the distributor on page 30. > > > > > > > > > > I was surprised to read that the mechanical advance for this dist > > > > > is only 5° at 2500 rpm, and tops out at 16° at 6000 rpm. This > > > > > probably explains why things don't glow when you drive at 2500 rpms > > > > > (there's enough advance) but do at higher speeds (not enough). > > > > > Vacuum advance ranges from 0° to 23° tops. > > > > > > > > > > When you tested the advance, you probably didn't rev the engine > > > > > much past 3000, which sounds pretty fast at in neutral. 5° is > > > > > not a lot of movement when looking with a standard timing light. > > > > > > > > > > Don't concern yourself oo much with the EGR opening when cold. > > > > > It's not serious, and will only cause hesitation and poor > performance > > > > > until the engine warms up. And don't worry about the EGR being > > > > > open at full throttle. EGR works off of ported vacuum, which is > > > > > highest at about 1/2 throttle, dropping to zero when fully closed or > > > > > fully open. It's difficult to see what fully open is like when the > car > > > > > is in neutral, because it revs too fast too quickly. > > > > > > > > > > I'd concentrate on the distributor first. Recheck the mechanical > > > > > advance with the vacuum hoses removed & plugged. Then reconnect > > > > > the hoses and there should be a lot more advance than before. > > > > > If not, make sure there's vacuum at the hoses when you open > > > > > the throttle. Follow the hoses back to their source, which may be > > > > > the same defective thermal switch that's also running the EGR. > > > > > Or, you may have mixed up the hoses where they attach to that > > > > > switch. I haven't checked, but the online manual probably has > > > > > vacuum routing diagrams too. > > > > > > > > > > Good luck. > > > > > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message > > > > > news:vrm700o5qd4b82@corp.supernews.com... > > > > > > Lots of hills here Bob, My girlfriend is a valley girl : ) > > > > > > Saskatchewan is hilly (most of it) there is a ski hill down the > road > > > > from > > > > > > us. > > > > > > Now, Manitoba is flat, watch your dog run away for a week. : ) > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually the car has good acceleration all the way up to 130Kph > > > > > > I'll try blocking the secondary air control valve, never thought > to > > > try > > > > > > that. > > > > > > I'm not sure I agree that the car would be pinging with the > > > distributor > > > > > set > > > > > > to 12% BTDC as most cars are set to 10% BTDC, I don't trust the > > Haynes > > > > > > manual, nor the emissions sticker (4% BTDC) on the underside of > the > > > > hood, > > > > > > however I do agree that I might have a distributor problem. I'll > > check > > > > > that > > > > > > out tomorrow. One thing to note: I tried 4% BTDC and the car was > > > > > backfiring, > > > > > > asuming (crankshaft is at it's respective timing mark) so the > > > > distributor > > > > > > could be the problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > One thing I tried tonight was, have the GF revv the car to 2,500 > RPM > > > and > > > > > > observ the ERG valve, it opens up all the way when the car is > stone > > > > cold. > > > > > > The Haynes manual says that the ERG shouldn't open (up to 2,500RPM > > > cold > > > > > > engine) when the engine is cold, if, it does, then the thermo > valve > > > has > > > > to > > > > > > be replaced. The ERG vacuum is controled by the thermo valve, > engine > > > > heats > > > > > > up and the thermo valve applies vacuum to the ERG if the temp is > hot > > > > > enough > > > > > > (185degrees), and engine is revved past 2,500 RPM. The ERG does > open > > > up > > > > > all > > > > > > the way when the engine is warm/hot. Also the manual says that the > > ERG > > > > > valve > > > > > > shouldn't open at full throttle if the engine is hot. The ERG > opens > > up > > > > > fully > > > > > > when I revv the engine to full throttle (hot or cold), but not at > > > idle. > > > > > I'm > > > > > > thinking that the problem may be the ERG opening at the wrong > times. > > > > > > > > > > > > Another thing I tried tonight was, drive the car down the highway > > > really > > > > > > fast, checked the exhaust manifold, red hot, drove back home in > over > > > > > drive, > > > > > > at low RPM (2,500RPM) around 80Kph for about 20 min. Checked the > > > > > > manifold,,,,wahoooo!!! it doesn't look like a bright red cherry > > > tomato. > > > > > LOL > > > > > > So, the problem is only occuring at 3/4 and full throttle. > > > > > > I'll double check the routing of the vacume hoses, if no go, then > > > check > > > > > the > > > > > > distributor and or find a used one, if no go, order a thermo > valve. > > > > > > Unfortunately, the dammmm Haynes manual only shows the ERG diagram > > for > > > a > > > > > 88 > > > > > > and up, I'll have to go by that diagram. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the help, at least I have a troubleshooting path to > > follow > > > > now. > > > > > > I'll try your suggestions tomorrow and get back to you. At least I > > > don't > > > > > > feel like driving the car off of a cliff now! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message > > > > > > news:bpeu90$h9p$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com... > > > > > > > Yeah. It doesn't take much spark to keep a car going at highway > > > > > > > speed. And you don't have much in the way of hills out there > > either. > > > > > > > So 12% advance is enough to keep the engine running at fairly > > > > > > > low rpms, say 2000-2500 at 80kph in high gear. But I bet your > > > > > > > acceleration really sucks. > > > > > > > > And even though the engine is running, there's a LOT of unburned > > > > > > > HC's going out the exhaust and heating up your manifold. > > > > > > > You still might want to try blocking off the secondary air hose > > > before > > > > > > > you fix this problem just to see if the glowing stops. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The return springs in the distributor are probably broken or > > > > > > > streched out (just like that throttle return spring), so the > dist > > > > > > > is stuck at full mechanical advance and you've compensated for > > > > > > > it. But you also have vacuum advance when the throttle is open, > > > > > > > and that plus the 12% keeps things running, sort of, on the > > highway. > > > > > > > If the mechanical advance actually worked, your engine would be > > > > > > > knocking (pinging) like crazy on regular gas. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A brand new distributor assembly is $340 from Hyundai, or a lot > > > > > > > less used from a junkyard. Part number is 27100-21430 for a > > > > > > > manual, and 27100-21440 for an automatic tranny. Any dist from > > > > > > > a carburated Excel from 86 and later will work if it has the > same > > > > > > > tranny as yours. (Timing advance curves differ slightly between > > > > > > > the two.) It's a shame, but there was a guy on Ebay trying to > > > > > > > get rid of a couple of these Excel distributors a few months ago > > > > > > > for next to nothing. I checked, but there's nothing out there > > right > > > > > > > now or in the last 30 days (just a couple of different auctions > > for > > > > > > > a 91 Scoupe dist, not compatible). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wouldn't bother with the EGR passage right now. Find a > > > > > > > used distributor first. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message > > > > > > > news:vrl4pm8t4ijfe2@corp.supernews.com... > > > > > > > > Hey Bob, me thinks I got it figured out. > > > > > > > > I think the whole problem is timing advance. Remember I was > > saying > > > > > that > > > > > > I > > > > > > > > have to set the crankshaft back two teeth to eliminate the > > glowing > > > > red > > > > > > > > exhaust manifold problem. Currently I've left the crankshaft > at > > a > > > > half > > > > > > of > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > tooth backwards (as close to timing mark as I can) and the > > > > distributor > > > > > > > > timing has been left at 10% BTDC (book says 4%) > > > > > > > > If I change the distributor timing to 4% BTDC, the problem > gets > > > > worse > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > the car has hardly any power on the highway. Checked the spark > > > plugs > > > > > and > > > > > > > now > > > > > > > > they are black. Changed the distributor to 12% BTDC, plugs are > > > > > starting > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > go to a dark tan colour. I'm thinking that the timing isn't > > > > advancing > > > > > > > enough > > > > > > > > (when driving down the highway) because, either shifting the > > > > > crankshaft > > > > > > > back > > > > > > > > two teeth or, with the crankshaft back half a tooth, advancing > > the > > > > > > > > distributor timing to 12% BTDC, has the same effect. I checked > > the > > > > > > > > distributor timing, with a timing light (12%BTDC) and revved > the > > > > > engine, > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > timing doesn't seem to move much from the timing mark IE: the > > > timing > > > > > > blur > > > > > > > on > > > > > > > > the crankshaft pulley doesn't go advance to say 20% BTDC > > > > > > > > Now here is where things don't make sense, how can I wipp down > > the > > > > > road > > > > > > at > > > > > > > > 140Kph if the timing isn't advancing? Maybe it's because I've > > set > > > > the > > > > > > > timing > > > > > > > > to 12% BTDC???? > > > > > > > > > > > > |
Re: Red Hot Exhaust Manifold
Here's a test for you:
You said that the manifold glows at 130Kph, but not at 100Kph. I feel it's because you have enough advance with a defective dist at whatever the rpm's are at 100Kph, but not enough when the engine is running faster at 130Kph (the faster the engine turns, the more advance is required because the burn speed of the gas remains constant). So, what happens when you run the car at 100Kph in a lower gear? The rpms should be the same or higher as when you're at 130Kph, but the load on the engine is less. If it's indeed the timing, your manifold should glow in the lower gear at the lower speed simply because of lack of advance is dumping unburned HC's into the manifold, where they continue to burn. Try it and let me know. One other q: Are you truly at wide open throttle (pedal to the floor) at 130Kph once you hit that speed (not just when you're accelerating)? If you are, you're asking too much from your engine. One of those google posts (regarding the motor home going uphill at WOT) mentioned that a glowing manifold is often the result of running at WOT for extended periods of time. Most carbs have a power circuit that enriches the mixture at WOT (as a result of manifold vacuum dropping to near zero) for better acceleration. But the rich mixture results in the glow after a period of time, but how often does one actually floor it for more than a minute or two, even? Hardly ever (you're supposed to downshift instead). Bob "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message news:vs3su5obc05e21@corp.supernews.com... > Ya I also did a Google search for my problem and found various reason why > this is happening. More often then not, the problem was timing. But what's > got me concerned is the fact that, the problem doesn't happen when I drive > around 100Kph, Surely it could be that I do have a defective vacuum advance > module, but why at full throttle? Today I'll be checking out a local wrecker > for another distributor or engine. I wish the problem was burnt or leaky > valves because the car would perform quite badly and the solution is > obvious. When I installed the new head gasket, I looked at the valves, there > was quite a bit left on the valve margins, so I assumed that the valves were > ok. Again the mixture cannot be too rich as the spark plugs are a tan > colour. As far as the valve clearances go, I originally set them loose, > because I thought that the valves weren't closing. After I determined that > wasn't the problem, I set them when the engine was cold, I just added > another thousand to the measurement to compensate for the engine being cold. > Not sure of the condition of the valve springs. If I don't have any luck > with the distributor, I'll try setting the valves to the hot clearances, if > no go, I'm going to bring the car to a friend's heated garage so I can tear > the whole thing down. I did mention that the car is running better now? LOL > > Mike > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message > news:bprum5$sd5$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com... > > Just for my own curiosity, I did a google search on Red Hot Exhaust > > Manifold, and was sort of surprised to see this thread near the top. > > But further down, there's a variety of opinions as to the cause. The > > most common ones are: mixture too lean, timing retarded, burnt or > > leaky exhaust valves, mixture too rich. > > > > You're currently working on the 2nd one, but I was wondering when > > you replaced the head gasket (properly) if the valve clearance was > > set properly when you put things back together? If it's too tight, the > > valves may start to burn, and they might start to float (not seat for > > long enough) at high rpms? You should check the clearances, 4 > > valves at a time at TDC and then the other 4 after turning the engine > > over to the next TDC. The engine should be fully warmed up but > > not overheated. It's better for the gap to be slightly looser than too > > tight. Also, I assume all the valve springs were in decent shape, > > none shorter than the others. I ask this because I made this mistake > > on a Datsun about 15 years ago. It ran perfectly for 10 miles on the > > highway until it just died, no warning. Started right up a few hours > > later after it had cooled down completely. Seems that I had set the > > cold clearance properly, but should have simply warmed it up in > > the driveway for 10 minutes, not taken it out on the road before > > setting the hot clearance. > > > > Bob > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message > > news:vs24m41bomh112@corp.supernews.com... > > > Ok we'll do that > > > I'm pretty sure both chambers should hold vacuum, it's the top chamber > > that > > > doesn't hold any vacuum at all. I'll try the local wrecker, but the last > > > time I was there they had 4 Excels but all were missing the engines, > just > > my > > > luck. I'll call them on Monday. I tried to reverse the vacuum lines > (sorry > > I > > > forgot to mention that) it didn't solve the problem. The 86 model > doesn't > > > have a O2 sensor. I'll try the wrecker, or buy a new part for the car. > > Again > > > the problem does disappear if I drive slow (100 Kph) on the highway. > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message > > > news:bpqrf3$rj7$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com... > > > > My gut feeling is that it's still the lack of advance on the > distributor > > > > at high speeds resulting in too much unburned HCs. The vacuum > > > > advance is available from Hyundai as a separate part for an > > > > unknown price (their parts website is down right now). There are > > > > 2 parts numbers, one for an automatic tranny, the other for manual. > > > > Or once again you can check out a local junkyard for a lot less. > > > > > > > > After writing the above, I went to http://www.hmaservice.com/webtech/ > > > > and selected a 1988 Excel and looked at the TSB's. > > > > > > > > Under Fuel System there's a great article (V1-30-002) explaining how > > > > feedback > > > > carbs from 1986 and later work, along with lots of diagrams. > > > > For the 2 nipples on the distributor, one is for normal vacuum > > > > advance, the other is for additional advance when the engine > > > > is cold or at high altitudes. I can't tell from your description which > > > > one of the two is broken, but you can: > > > > > > > > When the engine is warm, there should be no suction at either of > > > > the two hoses connected to the advance at idle. If you rev up the > > > > engine, there should be vacuum at one hose but not the other. > > > > This one is the normal advance hose, the other is therefore the > > > > cold advance hose and will only have vacuum when the car is > > > > cold, even at idle. If the cold advance nipple is the one that > > > > doesn't hold vacuum, then you'll only have cold driveability > > > > problems. If the normal advance nipple is the one that's shot, > > > > you're not getting enough advance at highway speeds. If this > > > > is the case, I'd try switching the two hoses temporarily to see > > > > if it eliminates the red-hot manifold problem. > > > > > > > > Once you've got that fixed, I'd check out the O2 sensor next. If > > > > you've never changed it, it's probably burnt out after all these > > > > years. You can test it by using a digital voltmeter (not an analog!) > > > > to see if it produces voltage at the connector when the car is > > > > fully warmed up. No voltage = dead sensor, and the computer > > > > thinks the mixture is too rich and tries to lean it out. I'm not sure > > > > how it's done on your carburated engine. Aftermarket O2 sensors > > > > are fine, but you need an impact wrench and a lot of penetrating > > > > oil (or a torch) to get the old one out of the exhaust manifold > > > > without breaking it off. > > > > > > > > And finally you can always try finishing cleaning out the EGR > > > > passage in the intake manifold. > > > > > > > > But do try fixing up the distributor first. > > > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message > > > > news:vs0cia2l0rva74@corp.supernews.com... > > > > > Update: > > > > > Took the distributor apart, the governor weights were stuck, they > > moved > > > > but > > > > > barely. So I cleaned the governor weights, spindle and greased them > > up. > > > > The > > > > > weights move more freely now, which was part of my problem. The > > breaker > > > > > plate was also sticking a little, cleaned it up and greased it, > > adjusted > > > > the > > > > > igniter (.030 ") > > > > > I think that I might have to replace the vacuum advance module as it > > > > doesn't > > > > > seem to move to much. With a vacuum line attached to the bottom > > nipple, > > > > > sucking (with my mouth as a don't have a hand pump) on the line to > > build > > > > up > > > > > pressure, the igniter advances, but not very much, maybe 2 or 3 mm. > > The > > > > top > > > > > nipple doesn't hold any vacuum at all. The car is definitely working > > > > better > > > > > now. I set the ignition timing to 4 degrees BTDC, now there is no > back > > > > > firing. With the engine warmed up, timing light attached, revved the > > > > engine, > > > > > observed the timing advancing properly. Before I fixed the > distributor > > > the > > > > > timing was actually going to ATDC 1 or 2 degrees and then advancing > > BTDC > > > 5 > > > > > to 10 degrees, as I revved the engine. Took the car for a drive down > > the > > > > > road, brought it up to 130 Kph for 15 min, stopped and the exhaust > > > > manifold > > > > > is still red hot. Drove back home in over drive at 100Kph, the > exhaust > > > > > manifold isn't red hot. I'm still baffled, any suggestions? > > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message > > > > > news:bphc9g$pmn$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com... > > > > > > Before you go out and get a distributor, please check out the > > > > > > 1988 Excel service manual online at www.hmaservice.com/webtech . > > > > > > Select your car (1988, not 86) and click on "Shop". Under > > > > > > "Engine Electrical System" read the specs on page 2, then ead > > > > > > about the distributor on page 30. > > > > > > > > > > > > I was surprised to read that the mechanical advance for this dist > > > > > > is only 5° at 2500 rpm, and tops out at 16° at 6000 rpm. This > > > > > > probably explains why things don't glow when you drive at 2500 > rpms > > > > > > (there's enough advance) but do at higher speeds (not enough). > > > > > > Vacuum advance ranges from 0° to 23° tops. > > > > > > > > > > > > When you tested the advance, you probably didn't rev the engine > > > > > > much past 3000, which sounds pretty fast at in neutral. 5° is > > > > > > not a lot of movement when looking with a standard timing light. > > > > > > > > > > > > Don't concern yourself too much with the EGR opening when cold. > > > > > > It's not serious, and will only cause hesitation and poor > > performance > > > > > > until the engine warms up. And don't worry about the EGR being > > > > > > open at full throttle. EGR works off of ported vacuum, which is > > > > > > highest at about 1/2 throttle, dropping to zero when fully closed > or > > > > > > fully open. It's difficult to see what fully open is like when the > > car > > > > > > is in neutral, because it revs too fast too quickly. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'd concentrate on the distributor first. Recheck the mechanical > > > > > > advance with the vacuum hoses removed & plugged. Then reconnect > > > > > > the hoses and there should be a lot more advance than before. > > > > > > If not, make sure there's vacuum at the hoses when you open > > > > > > the throttle. Follow the hoses back to their source, which may be > > > > > > the same defective thermal switch that's also running the EGR. > > > > > > Or, you may have mixed up the hoses where they attach to that > > > > > > switch. I haven't checked, but the online manual probably has > > > > > > vacuum routing diagrams too. > > > > > > > > > > > > Good luck. > > > > > > > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message > > > > > > news:vrm700o5qd4b82@corp.supernews.com... > > > > > > > Lots of hills here Bob, My girlfriend is a valley girl : ) > > > > > > > Saskatchewan is hilly (most of it) there is a ski hill down the > > road > > > > > from > > > > > > > us. > > > > > > > Now, Manitoba is flat, watch your dog run away for a week. > : ) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually the car has good acceleration all the way up to 130Kph > > > > > > > I'll try blocking the secondary air control valve, never thought > > to > > > > try > > > > > > > that. > > > > > > > I'm not sure I agree that the car would be pinging with the > > > > distributor > > > > > > set > > > > > > > to 12% BTDC as most cars are set to 10% BTDC, I don't trust the > > > Haynes > > > > > > > manual, nor the emissions sticker (4% BTDC) on the underside of > > the > > > > > hood, > > > > > > > however I do agree that I might have a distributor problem. I'll > > > check > > > > > > that > > > > > > > out tomorrow. One thing to note: I tried 4% BTDC and the car was > > > > > > backfiring, > > > > > > > asuming (crankshaft is at it's respective timing mark) so the > > > > > distributor > > > > > > > could be the problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One thing I tried tonight was, have the GF revv the car to 2,500 > > RPM > > > > and > > > > > > > observ the ERG valve, it opens up all the way when the car is > > stone > > > > > cold. > > > > > > > The Haynes manual says that the ERG shouldn't open (up to > 2,500RPM > > > > cold > > > > > > > engine) when the engine is cold, if, it does, then the thermo > > valve > > > > has > > > > > to > > > > > > > be replaced. The ERG vacuum is controled by the thermo valve, > > engine > > > > > heats > > > > > > > up and the thermo valve applies vacuum to the ERG if the temp is > > hot > > > > > > enough > > > > > > > (185degrees), and engine is revved past 2,500 RPM. The ERG does > > open > > > > up > > > > > > all > > > > > > > the way when the engine is warm/hot. Also the manual says that > the > > > ERG > > > > > > valve > > > > > > > shouldn't open at full throttle if the engine is hot. The ERG > > opens > > > up > > > > > > fully > > > > > > > when I revv the engine to full throttle (hot or cold), but not > at > > > > idle. > > > > > > I'm > > > > > > > thinking that the problem may be the ERG opening at the wrong > > times. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Another thing I tried tonight was, drive the car down the > highway > > > > really > > > > > > > fast, checked the exhaust manifold, red hot, drove back home in > > over > > > > > > drive, > > > > > > > at low RPM (2,500RPM) around 80Kph for about 20 min. Checked the > > > > > > > manifold,,,,wahoooo!!! it doesn't look like a bright red cherry > > > > tomato. > > > > > > LOL > > > > > > > So, the problem is only occuring at 3/4 and full throttle. > > > > > > > I'll double check the routing of the vacume hoses, if no go, > then > > > > check > > > > > > the > > > > > > > distributor and or find a used one, if no go, order a thermo > > valve. > > > > > > > Unfortunately, the dammmm Haynes manual only shows the ERG > diagram > > > for > > > > a > > > > > > 88 > > > > > > > and up, I'll have to go by that diagram. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the help, at least I have a troubleshooting path to > > > follow > > > > > now. > > > > > > > I'll try your suggestions tomorrow and get back to you. At least > I > > > > don't > > > > > > > feel like driving the car off of a cliff now! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message > > > > > > > news:bpeu90$h9p$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com... > > > > > > > > Yeah. It doesn't take much spark to keep a car going at > highway > > > > > > > > speed. And you don't have much in the way of hills out there > > > either. > > > > > > > > So 12% advance is enough to keep the engine running at fairly > > > > > > > > low rpms, say 2000-2500 at 80kph in high gear. But I bet your > > > > > > > > acceleration really sucks. > > > > > > > > > And even though the engine is running, there's a LOT of > unburned > > > > > > > > HC's going out the exhaust and heating up your manifold. > > > > > > > > You still might want to try blocking off the secondary air > hose > > > > before > > > > > > > > you fix this problem just to see if the glowing stops. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The return springs in the distributor are probably broken or > > > > > > > > streched out (just like that throttle return spring), so the > > dist > > > > > > > > is stuck at full mechanical advance and you've compensated for > > > > > > > > it. But you also have vacuum advance when the throttle is > open, > > > > > > > > and that plus the 12% keeps things running, sort of, on the > > > highway. > > > > > > > > If the mechanical advance actually worked, your engine would > be > > > > > > > > knocking (pinging) like crazy on regular gas. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A brand new distributor assembly is $340 from Hyundai, or a > lot > > > > > > > > less used from a junkyard. Part number is 27100-21430 for a > > > > > > > > manual, and 27100-21440 for an automatic tranny. Any dist from > > > > > > > > a carburated Excel from 86 and later will work if it has the > > same > > > > > > > > tranny as yours. (Timing advance curves differ slightly > between > > > > > > > > the two.) It's a shame, but there was a guy on Ebay trying to > > > > > > > > get rid of a couple of these Excel distributors a few months > ago > > > > > > > > for next to nothing. I checked, but there's nothing out there > > > right > > > > > > > > now or in the last 30 days (just a couple of different > auctions > > > for > > > > > > > > a 91 Scoupe dist, not compatible). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wouldn't bother with the EGR passage right now. Find a > > > > > > > > used distributor first. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message > > > > > > > > news:vrl4pm8t4ijfe2@corp.supernews.com... > > > > > > > > > Hey Bob, me thinks I got it figured out. > > > > > > > > > I think the whole problem is timing advance. Remember I was > > > saying > > > > > > that > > > > > > > I > > > > > > > > > have to set the crankshaft back two teeth to eliminate the > > > glowing > > > > > red > > > > > > > > > exhaust manifold problem. Currently I've left the crankshaft > > at > > > a > > > > > half > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > tooth backwards (as close to timing mark as I can) and the > > > > > distributor > > > > > > > > > timing has been left at 10% BTDC (book says 4%) > > > > > > > > > If I change the distributor timing to 4% BTDC, the problem > > gets > > > > > worse > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > the car has hardly any power on the highway. Checked the > spark > > > > plugs > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > now > > > > > > > > > they are black. Changed the distributor to 12% BTDC, plugs > are > > > > > > starting > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > go to a dark tan colour. I'm thinking that the timing isn't > > > > > advancing > > > > > > > > enough > > > > > > > > > (when driving down the highway) because, either shifting the > > > > > > crankshaft > > > > > > > > back > > > > > > > > > two teeth or, with the crankshaft back half a tooth, > advancing > > > the > > > > > > > > > distributor timing to 12% BTDC, has the same effect. I > checked > > > the > > > > > > > > > distributor timing, with a timing light (12%BTDC) and revved > > the > > > > > > engine, > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > timing doesn't seem to move much from the timing mark IE: > the > > > > timing > > > > > > > blur > > > > > > > > on > > > > > > > > > the crankshaft pulley doesn't go advance to say 20% BTDC > > > > > > > > > Now here is where things don't make sense, how can I wipp > down > > > the > > > > > > road > > > > > > > at > > > > > > > > > 140Kph if the timing isn't advancing? Maybe it's because > I've > > > set > > > > > the > > > > > > > > timing > > > > > > > > > to 12% BTDC???? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > |
Re: Red Hot Exhaust Manifold
Never stopped by the wrecker today as, I had to bring the wife to her
prenatal doc today. I did call the wrecker and they suggested that I call on Saturday to make sure they have a Excel with a engine in it. Yeah! I was thinking about doing a test like that also, I never got around to trying such a test. I'll try it tomorrow and get back to you about it. I have to clear one thing up, on my last post I said that the exhaust manifold didn't glow red when I drove 100 Kph, that is true, except for some very very dark red colour (just on part of the manifold). You can't see this very dark red colour during daylight hours, only at night. SORRY I forgot to mention this yesterday. What I meant by wide open throttle is: almost to the floor. If I don't get anymore acceleration from pressing down on the gas pedal, I'll back off the foot feed a little. If I try and squeeze every ounce of speed out of the engine, I can get her going close to 150Kph. It's a good theory you have, because there is a point when accelerating in over drive, that, pressing down the foot feed, actually stops the car from accelerating, thus I have to back her off a bit. One thing is for certain, that I wouldn't be driving the car as fast, as possible all of the time, however I would like to drive at 100 plus from time to time without the worry of something catching on fire. I'll get back to you tomorrow Mike AKA Deefer Dog "Never pet a burning dog!" "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message news:bq18rh$mup$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com... > Here's a test for you: > > You said that the manifold glows at 130Kph, but not at 100Kph. > I feel it's because you have enough advance with a defective dist > at whatever the rpm's are at 100Kph, but not enough when the > engine is running faster at 130Kph (the faster the engine turns, > the more advance is required because the burn speed of the gas > remains constant). > > So, what happens when you run the car at 100Kph in a lower gear? > The rpms should be the same or higher as when you're at 130Kph, > but the load on the engine is less. If it's indeed the timing, your > manifold should glow in the lower gear at the lower speed simply > because of lack of advance is dumping unburned HC's into the > manifold, where they continue to burn. > > Try it and let me know. > > One other q: Are you truly at wide open throttle (pedal to the floor) > at 130Kph once you hit that speed (not just when you're accelerating)? > If you are, you're asking too much from your engine. One of those > google posts (regarding the motor home going uphill at WOT) mentioned > that a glowing manifold is often the result of running at WOT for > extended periods of time. Most carbs have a power circuit that > enriches the mixture at WOT (as a result of manifold vacuum dropping > to near zero) for better acceleration. But the rich mixture results in > the glow after a period of time, but how often does one actually > floor it for more than a minute or two, even? Hardly ever (you're > supposed to downshift instead). > > Bob > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message > news:vs3su5obc05e21@corp.supernews.com... > > Ya I also did a Google search for my problem and found various reason why > > this is happening. More often then not, the problem was timing. But what's > > got me concerned is the fact that, the problem doesn't happen when I drive > > around 100Kph, Surely it could be that I do have a defective vacuum > advance > > module, but why at full throttle? Today I'll be checking out a local > wrecker > > for another distributor or engine. I wish the problem was burnt or leaky > > valves because the car would perform quite badly and the solution is > > obvious. When I installed the new head gasket, I looked at the valves, > there > > was quite a bit left on the valve margins, so I assumed that the valves > were > > ok. Again the mixture cannot be too rich as the spark plugs are a tan > > colour. As far as the valve clearances go, I originally set them loose, > > because I thought that the valves weren't closing. After I determined that > > wasn't the problem, I set them when the engine was cold, I just added > > another thousand to the measurement to compensate for the engine being > cold. > > Not sure of the condition of the valve springs. If I don't have any luck > > with the distributor, I'll try setting the valves to the hot clearances, > if > > no go, I'm going to bring the car to a friend's heated garage so I can > tear > > the whole thing down. I did mention that the car is running better now? > LOL > > > > Mike > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message > > news:bprum5$sd5$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com... > > > Just for my own curiosity, I did a google search on Red Hot Exhaust > > > Manifold, and was sort of surprised to see this thread near the top. > > > But further down, there's a variety of opinions as to the cause. The > > > most common ones are: mixture too lean, timing retarded, burnt or > > > leaky exhaust valves, mixture too rich. > > > > > > You're currently working on the 2nd one, but I was wondering when > > > you replaced the head gasket (properly) if the valve clearance was > > > set properly when you put things back together? If it's too tight, the > > > valves may start to burn, and they might start to float (not seat for > > > long enough) at high rpms? You should check the clearances, 4 > > > valves at a time at TDC and then the other 4 after turning the engine > > > over to the next TDC. The engine should be fully warmed up but > > > not overheated. It's better for the gap to be slightly looser than too > > > tight. Also, I assume all the valve springs were in decent shape, > > > none shorter than the others. I ask this because I made this mistake > > > on a Datsun about 15 years ago. It ran perfectly for 10 miles on the > > > highway until it just died, no warning. Started right up a few hours > > > later after it had cooled down completely. Seems that I had set the > > > cold clearance properly, but should have simply warmed it up in > > > the driveway for 10 minutes, not taken it out on the road before > > > setting the hot clearance. > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message > > > news:vs24m41bomh112@corp.supernews.com... > > > > Ok we'll do that > > > > I'm pretty sure both chambers should hold vacuum, it's the top chamber > > > that > > > > doesn't hold any vacuum at all. I'll try the local wrecker, but the > last > > > > time I was there they had 4 Excels but all were missing the engines, > > just > > > my > > > > luck. I'll call them on Monday. I tried to reverse the vacuum lines > > (sorry > > > I > > > > forgot to mention that) it didn't solve the problem. The 86 model > > doesn't > > > > have a O2 sensor. I'll try the wrecker, or buy a new part for the car. > > > Again > > > > the problem does disappear if I drive slow (100 Kph) on the highway. > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message > > > > news:bpqrf3$rj7$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com... > > > > > My gut feeling is that it's still the lack of advance on the > > distributor > > > > > at high speeds resulting in too much unburned HCs. The vacuum > > > > > advance is available from Hyundai as a separate part for an > > > > > unknown price (their parts website is down right now). There are > > > > > 2 parts numbers, one for an automatic tranny, the other for manual. > > > > > Or once again you can check out a local junkyard for a lot less. > > > > > > > > > > After writing the above, I went to > http://www.hmaservice.com/webtech/ > > > > > and selected a 1988 Excel and looked at the TSB's. > > > > > > > > > > Under Fuel System there's a great article (V1-30-002) explaining how > > > > > feedback > > > > > carbs from 1986 and later work, along with lots of diagrams. > > > > > For the 2 nipples on the distributor, one is for normal vacuum > > > > > advance, the other is for additional advance when the engine > > > > > is cold or at high altitudes. I can't tell from your description > which > > > > > one of the two is broken, but you can: > > > > > > > > > > When the engine is warm, there should be no suction at either of > > > > > the two hoses connected to the advance at idle. If you rev up the > > > > > engine, there should be vacuum at one hose but not the other. > > > > > This one is the normal advance hose, the other is therefore the > > > > > cold advance hose and will only have vacuum when the car is > > > > > cold, even at idle. If the cold advance nipple is the one that > > > > > doesn't hold vacuum, then you'll only have cold driveability > > > > > problems. If the normal advance nipple is the one that's shot, > > > > > you're not getting enough advance at highway speeds. If this > > > > > is the case, I'd try switching the two hoses temporarily to see > > > > > if it eliminates the red-hot manifold problem. > > > > > > > > > > Once you've got that fixed, I'd check out the O2 sensor next. If > > > > > you've never changed it, it's probably burnt out after all these > > > > > years. You can test it by using a digital voltmeter (not an analog!) > > > > > to see if it produces voltage at the connector when the car is > > > > > fully warmed up. No voltage = dead sensor, and the computer > > > > > thinks the mixture is too rich and tries to lean it out. I'm not > sure > > > > > how it's done on your carburated engine. Aftermarket O2 sensors > > > > > are fine, but you need an impact wrench and a lot of penetrating > > > > > oil (or a torch) to get the old one out of the exhaust manifold > > > > > without breaking it off. > > > > > > > > > > And finally you can always try finishing cleaning out the EGR > > > > > passage in the intake manifold. > > > > > > > > > > But do try fixing up the distributor first. > > > > > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message > > > > > news:vs0cia2l0rva74@corp.supernews.com... > > > > > > Update: > > > > > > Took the distributor apart, the governor weights were stuck, they > > > moved > > > > > but > > > > > > barely. So I cleaned the governor weights, spindle and greased > them > > > up. > > > > > The > > > > > > weights move more freely now, which was part of my problem. The > > > breaker > > > > > > plate was also sticking a little, cleaned it up and greased it, > > > adjusted > > > > > the > > > > > > igniter (.030 ") > > > > > > I think that I might have to replace the vacuum advance module as > it > > > > > doesn't > > > > > > seem to move to much. With a vacuum line attached to the bottom > > > nipple, > > > > > > sucking (with my mouth as a don't have a hand pump) on the line to > > > build > > > > > up > > > > > > pressure, the igniter advances, but not very much, maybe 2 or 3 > mm. > > > The > > > > > top > > > > > > nipple doesn't hold any vacuum at all. The car is definitely > working > > > > > better > > > > > > now. I set the ignition timing to 4 degrees BTDC, now there is no > > back > > > > > > firing. With the engine warmed up, timing light attached, revved > the > > > > > engine, > > > > > > observed the timing advancing properly. Before I fixed the > > distributor > > > > the > > > > > > timing was actually going to ATDC 1 or 2 degrees and then > advancing > > > BTDC > > > > 5 > > > > > > to 10 degrees, as I revved the engine. Took the car for a drive > down > > > the > > > > > road, brought it up to 130 Kph for 15 min, stopped and the exhaust > > > > > manifold > > > > > > is still red hot. Drove back home in over drive at 100Kph, the > > exhaust > > > > > > manifold isn't red hot. I'm still baffled, any suggestions? > > > > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message > > > > > > news:bphc9g$pmn$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com... > > > > > > > Before you go out and get a distributor, please check out the > > > > > > > 1988 Excel service manual online at www.hmaservice.com/webtech .. > > > > > > > Select your car (1988, not 86) and click on "Shop". Under > > > > > > > "Engine Electrical System" read the specs on page 2, then read > > > > > > > about the distributor on page 30. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was surprised to read that the mechanical advance for this > dist > > > > > > > is only 5° at 2500 rpm, and tops out at 16° at 6000 rpm. This > > > > > > > probably explains why things don't glow when you drive at 2500 > > rpms > > > > > > > (there's enough advance) but do at higher speeds (not enough). > > > > > > > Vacuum advance ranges from 0° to 23° tops. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When you tested the advance, you probably didn't rev the engine > > > > > > > much past 3000, which sounds pretty fast at in neutral. 5° is > > > > > > > not a lot of movement when looking with a standard timing light. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Don't concern yourself too much with the EGR opening when cold. > > > > > > > It's not serious, and will only cause hesitation and poor > > > performance > > > > > > > until the engine warms up. And don't worry about the EGR being > > > > > > > open at full throttle. EGR works off of ported vacuum, which is > > > > > > > highest at about 1/2 throttle, dropping to zero when fully > closed > > or > > > > > > > fully open. It's difficult to see what fully open is like when > the > > > car > > > > > > > is in neutral, because it revs too fast too quickly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'd concentrate on the distributor first. Recheck the mechanical > > > > > > > advance with the vacuum hoses removed & plugged. Then reconnect > > > > > > > the hoses and there should be a lot more advance than before. > > > > > > > If not, make sure there's vacuum at the hoses when you open > > > > > > > the throttle. Follow the hoses back to their source, which may > be > > > > > > > the same defective thermal switch that's also running the EGR. > > > > > > > Or, you may have mixed up the hoses where they attach to that > > > > > > > switch. I haven't checked, but the online manual probably has > > > > > > > vacuum routing diagrams too. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Good luck. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message > > > > > > > news:vrm700o5qd4b82@corp.supernews.com... > > > > > > > > Lots of hills here Bob, My girlfriend is a valley girl : ) > > > > > > > > Saskatchewan is hilly (most of it) there is a ski hill down > the > > > road > > > > > > from > > > > > > > > us. > > > > > > > > Now, Manitoba is flat, watch your dog run away for a week. > > : ) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually the car has good acceleration all the way up to > 130Kph > > > > > > > > I'll try blocking the secondary air control valve, never > thought > > > to > > > > > try > > > > > > > > that. > > > > > > > > I'm not sure I agree that the car would be pinging with the > > > > > distributor > > > > > > > set > > > > > > > > to 12% BTDC as most cars are set to 10% BTDC, I don't trust > the > > > > Haynes > > > > > > > > manual, nor the emissions sticker (4% BTDC) on the underside > of > > > the > > > > > > hood, > > > > > > > > however I do agree that I might have a distributor problem. > I'll > > > > check > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > out tomorrow. One thing to note: I tried 4% BTDC and the car > was > > > > > > > backfiring, > > > > > > > > asuming (crankshaft is at it's respective timing mark) so the > > > > > > distributor > > > > > > > > could be the problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One thing I tried tonight was, have the GF revv the car to > 2,500 > > > RPM > > > > > and > > > > > > > > observ the ERG valve, it opens up all the way when the car is > > > stone > > > > > > cold. > > > > > > > > The Haynes manual says that the ERG shouldn't open (up to > > 2,500RPM > > > > > cold > > > > > > > > engine) when the engine is cold, if, it does, then the thermo > > > valve > > > > > has > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > be replaced. The ERG vacuum is controled by the thermo valve, > > > engine > > > > > > heats > > > > > > > > up and the thermo valve applies vacuum to the ERG if the temp > is > > > hot > > > > > > > enough > > > > > > > > (185degrees), and engine is revved past 2,500 RPM. The ERG > does > > > open > > > > > up > > > > > > > all > > > > > > > > the way when the engine is warm/hot. Also the manual says that > > the > > > > ERG > > > > > > > valve > > > > > > > > shouldn't open at full throttle if the engine is hot. The ERG > > > opens > > > > up > > > > > > > fully > > > > > > > > when I revv the engine to full throttle (hot or cold), but not > > at > > > > > idle. > > > > > > > I'm > > > > > > > > thinking that the problem may be the ERG opening at the wrong > > > times. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Another thing I tried tonight was, drive the car down the > > highway > > > > > really > > > > > > > > fast, checked the exhaust manifold, red hot, drove back home > in > > > over > > > > > > > drive, > > > > > > > > at low RPM (2,500RPM) around 80Kph for about 20 min. Checked > the > > > > > > > > manifold,,,,wahoooo!!! it doesn't look like a bright red > cherry > > > > > tomato. > > > > > > > LOL > > > > > > > > So, the problem is only occuring at 3/4 and full throttle. > > > > > > > > I'll double check the routing of the vacume hoses, if no go, > > then > > > > > check > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > distributor and or find a used one, if no go, order a thermo > > > valve. > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, the dammmm Haynes manual only shows the ERG > > diagram > > > > for > > > > > a > > > > > > > 88 > > > > > > > > and up, I'll have to go by that diagram. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the help, at least I have a troubleshooting path to > > > > follow > > > > > > now. > > > > > > > > I'll try your suggestions tomorrow and get back to you. At > least > > I > > > > > don't > > > > > > > > feel like driving the car off of a cliff now! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote in message > > > > > > > > news:bpeu90$h9p$1@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com... > > > > > > > > > Yeah. It doesn't take much spark to keep a car going at > > highway > > > > > > > > > speed. And you don't have much in the way of hills out there > > > > either. > > > > > > > > > So 12% advance is enough to keep the engine running at > fairly > > > > > > > > > low rpms, say 2000-2500 at 80kph in high gear. But I bet > your > > > > > > > > > acceleration really sucks. > > > > > > > > > > And even though the engine is running, there's a LOT of > > unburned > > > > > > > > > HC's going out the exhaust and heating up your manifold. > > > > > > > > > You still might want to try blocking off the secondary air > > hose > > > > > before > > > > > > > > > you fix this problem just to see if the glowing stops. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The return springs in the distributor are probably broken or > > > > > > > > > streched out (just like that throttle return spring), so the > > > dist > > > > > > > > > is stuck at full mechanical advance and you've compensated > for > > > > > > > > > it. But you also have vacuum advance when the throttle is > > open, > > > > > > > > > and that plus the 12% keeps things running, sort of, on the > > > > highway. > > > > > > > > > If the mechanical advance actually worked, your engine would > > be > > > > > > > > > knocking (pinging) like crazy on regular gas. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A brand new distributor assembly is $340 from Hyundai, or a > > lot > > > > > > > > > less used from a junkyard. Part number is 27100-21430 for a > > > > > > > > > manual, and 27100-21440 for an automatic tranny. Any dist > from > > > > > > > > > a carburated Excel from 86 and later will work if it has the > > > same > > > > > > > > > tranny as yours. (Timing advance curves differ slightly > > between > > > > > > > > > the two.) It's a shame, but there was a guy on Ebay trying > to > > > > > > > > > get rid of a couple of these Excel distributors a few months > > ago > > > > > > > > > for next to nothing. I checked, but there's nothing out > there > > > > right > > > > > > > > > now or in the last 30 days (just a couple of different > > auctions > > > > for > > > > > > > > > a 91 Scoupe dist, not compatible). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wouldn't bother with the EGR passage right now. Find a > > > > > > > > > used distributor first. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Mike Wilson" <wilsonjamesmichael@yahoo.ca> wrote in message > > > > > > > > > news:vrl4pm8t4ijfe2@corp.supernews.com... > > > > > > > > > > Hey Bob, me thinks I got it figured out. > > > > > > > > > > I think the whole problem is timing advance. Remember I > was > > > > saying > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > I > > > > > > > > > > have to set the crankshaft back two teeth to eliminate the > > > > glowing > > > > > > red > > > > > > > > > > exhaust manifold problem. Currently I've left the > crankshaft > > > at > > > > a > > > > > > half > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > > tooth backwards (as close to timing mark as I can) and the > > > > > > distributor > > > > > > > > > > timing has been left at 10% BTDC (book says 4%) > > > > > > > > > > If I change the distributor timing to 4% BTDC, the problem > > > gets > > > > > > worse > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > the car has hardly any power on the highway. Checked the > > spark > > > > > plugs > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > now > > > > > > > > > > they are black. Changed the distributor to 12% BTDC, plugs > > are > > > > > > > starting > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > go to a dark tan colour. I'm thinking that the timing > isn't > > > > > > advancing > > > > > > > > > enough > > > > > > > > > > (when driving down the highway) because, either shifting > the > > > > > > > crankshaft > > > > > > > > > back > > > > > > > > > > two teeth or, with the crankshaft back half a tooth, > > advancing > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > distributor timing to 12% BTDC, has the same effect. I > > checked > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > distributor timing, with a timing light (12%BTDC) and > revved > > > the > > > > > > > engine, > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > timing doesn't seem to move much from the timing mark IE: > > the > > > > > timing > > > > > > > > blur > > > > > > > > > on > > > > > > > > > > the crankshaft pulley doesn't go advance to say 20% BTDC > > > > > > > > > > Now here is where things don't make sense, how can I wipp > > down > > > > the > > > > > > > road > > > > > > > > at > > > > > > > > > > 140Kph if the timing isn't advancing? Maybe it's because > > I've > > > > set > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > timing > > > > > > > > > > to 12% BTDC???? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > |
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