Which Turbo for my Needs?
12-14-2005, 11:56 AM
#1
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Which Turbo for my Needs?
First I want to say hi to Viper04af 
What's up? You should be able to help me alot anyway, since you've been where I am. Except for the crappy gears, haha.
Anyway, I'm hoping you guys can help since you deal with boost on a day to day basis. BE FOREWARNED, this is a long post, with alot of info. Those who make it throught to the end will be awarded with the very coveted and jewle-encrusted "Ford Sucks" trophy.
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Allright, here we go, or whatever.
1999 Camaro 3.8 / L36 / A4 / 3.08 Rear/ (will change eventually) (it's an open diff)
Anyway.. here is how I'm choosing my turbo. Please bring up any issues if you don't mind. Taking into account my driving habits, my desired amount of boost, (6-8 pounds) and my desire for more low-end torque, and some nice mid-range HP gains, with some maybe leaking over to high end.
I don't speed on the highway or race (can't anymore), so street fun and good highway performance similar to a V8, (Knoxville traffic merging is death) and keeping my low-mileage 3.8 and A4 from being ragged out, and eleminating the expense/time of a V8 swap is key. If I do it right, I will have V8 horsepower, no problem with being afraid to merge in Knoxville anymore, and the car will be tons more fun. But, still suitable for a fairly maintenance free, daily driver.
I could also later maybe just change my trim, housing, a/r, or turbo in general.. easily down the road if I'm not happy. I don't want more than 10 pounds of boost, ever. If I need more power than that, I'll just start daily driving my 454 Double-Pumped Holley Big Block truck. It's fun, but my god.. the gas mileage.
Today, I did some runs, to figure out my habits a little better.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Throttled Acc:
3500 RPM, shifts to Second at 40 mph
3000 RPM, shifts to third at 55 mph
2000 RPM, shifts/OD locks up at 60'sh mph
Cruises at around 1800-2500 on highway. (50-65 mph)
goes as high as 3500-3800 on high speed highway driving (85+)
Supposed Stock HP:
205 hp @ 5400 rpm
Actual Rear Wheel Horsepower:
165 hp (est.) @ the wheels
(due to Auto) (figures a 40 hp loss)
So, the highest HP my car sees on average (during my normal cruising speeds) is probably around 40 measly horsepower. I'm looking to about double that, and pretty much for my whole range.
I used turbocalculator, and it told me to get a T3, but the map goes way off to the right, and doesnt work at all. (or so I'm told)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
So I used the turbocenetics.pdf
I downloaded that .pdf file a bit ago, and according to it, I should get either:
T04B /SV STG 3 .63 A/R (supp. 300HP) -or- TO4B /SH .63 (supp. 350 HP)
CM: http://www.turbocalculator.com/comp...aps/t04b-v1.jpg
-or-
T04E50 STG V .63 A/R (supp. 300 or 350 HP)
CM: http://www.turbocalculator.com/comp...aps/t04e-57.jpg
(Which is in a way, is on par with the original numbers I was wanting. = 330RWHP = 8PSI)
BUT, the 3.8 location somewhere between 3.5 and 4.0 liter is fairly unclear on that .pdf.
Which one?
Oh, and sorry for yet another question about this. I have done alot of research on the subject though. I just suck at calculating VE and looking at maps.
What's up? You should be able to help me alot anyway, since you've been where I am. Except for the crappy gears, haha.Anyway, I'm hoping you guys can help since you deal with boost on a day to day basis. BE FOREWARNED, this is a long post, with alot of info. Those who make it throught to the end will be awarded with the very coveted and jewle-encrusted "Ford Sucks" trophy.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Allright, here we go, or whatever.
1999 Camaro 3.8 / L36 / A4 / 3.08 Rear/ (will change eventually) (it's an open diff)
Anyway.. here is how I'm choosing my turbo. Please bring up any issues if you don't mind. Taking into account my driving habits, my desired amount of boost, (6-8 pounds) and my desire for more low-end torque, and some nice mid-range HP gains, with some maybe leaking over to high end.
I don't speed on the highway or race (can't anymore), so street fun and good highway performance similar to a V8, (Knoxville traffic merging is death) and keeping my low-mileage 3.8 and A4 from being ragged out, and eleminating the expense/time of a V8 swap is key. If I do it right, I will have V8 horsepower, no problem with being afraid to merge in Knoxville anymore, and the car will be tons more fun. But, still suitable for a fairly maintenance free, daily driver.
I could also later maybe just change my trim, housing, a/r, or turbo in general.. easily down the road if I'm not happy. I don't want more than 10 pounds of boost, ever. If I need more power than that, I'll just start daily driving my 454 Double-Pumped Holley Big Block truck. It's fun, but my god.. the gas mileage.
Today, I did some runs, to figure out my habits a little better.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Throttled Acc:
3500 RPM, shifts to Second at 40 mph
3000 RPM, shifts to third at 55 mph
2000 RPM, shifts/OD locks up at 60'sh mph
Cruises at around 1800-2500 on highway. (50-65 mph)
goes as high as 3500-3800 on high speed highway driving (85+)
Supposed Stock HP:
205 hp @ 5400 rpm
Actual Rear Wheel Horsepower:
165 hp (est.) @ the wheels
(due to Auto) (figures a 40 hp loss)
So, the highest HP my car sees on average (during my normal cruising speeds) is probably around 40 measly horsepower. I'm looking to about double that, and pretty much for my whole range.
I used turbocalculator, and it told me to get a T3, but the map goes way off to the right, and doesnt work at all. (or so I'm told)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
So I used the turbocenetics.pdf
I downloaded that .pdf file a bit ago, and according to it, I should get either:
T04B /SV STG 3 .63 A/R (supp. 300HP) -or- TO4B /SH .63 (supp. 350 HP)
CM: http://www.turbocalculator.com/comp...aps/t04b-v1.jpg
-or-
T04E50 STG V .63 A/R (supp. 300 or 350 HP)
CM: http://www.turbocalculator.com/comp...aps/t04e-57.jpg
(Which is in a way, is on par with the original numbers I was wanting. = 330RWHP = 8PSI)
BUT, the 3.8 location somewhere between 3.5 and 4.0 liter is fairly unclear on that .pdf.
Which one?
Oh, and sorry for yet another question about this. I have done alot of research on the subject though. I just suck at calculating VE and looking at maps.
12-15-2005, 09:18 AM
#2
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I was your only view 
... I would help you out, but Im a little less position than you, Im still trying to learn more about turbos as I plan on getting one in the future. But if youre looking to check out a place to get one http://force-fed-fabrications.com/index2.htm is the best site out there. Thats the one I plan on getting. Now im not sure about the rest of your post, because Im still trying to pick up bits and pieces on turbos, but I hope that might help you out a little.
... I would help you out, but Im a little less position than you, Im still trying to learn more about turbos as I plan on getting one in the future. But if youre looking to check out a place to get one http://force-fed-fabrications.com/index2.htm is the best site out there. Thats the one I plan on getting. Now im not sure about the rest of your post, because Im still trying to pick up bits and pieces on turbos, but I hope that might help you out a little.
12-15-2005, 11:11 AM
#3
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Yeah, I've been emailing him questions for a week or so. I'm trieng to read these compressor maps, and the math is making my head hurt. Just tell me which turbo, and I'll weld the thing in!
edit: Now he's telling me my auto doesn't put enough load on the engine to spool? Pro tip! I don't control my automatics shifts.
Is this guy a nutter?
edit: Now he's telling me my auto doesn't put enough load on the engine to spool? Pro tip! I don't control my automatics shifts.
Is this guy a nutter?
12-15-2005, 05:44 PM
#4
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Originally Posted by EOCF Rabid Dog
Yeah, I've been emailing him questions for a week or so. I'm trieng to read these compressor maps, and the math is making my head hurt. Just tell me which turbo, and I'll weld the thing in!
edit: Now he's telling me my auto doesn't put enough load on the engine to spool? Pro tip! I don't control my automatics shifts. Is this guy a nutter?
edit: Now he's telling me my auto doesn't put enough load on the engine to spool? Pro tip! I don't control my automatics shifts.
Is this guy a nutter?Keep in mind that its sometimes easier to build big first and back off initially than try to build small and get max power out of it later.
I would find a turbo that easily supports what you are trying to do now, and go with that. Once you get the feeling of boosted power you are going to want more, trust me. If you get a small one and think that you will be happy with it I think you are in for a surprise and be in the same boat as me.
I bought a 600b Procharger and thought that it would be plenty of power and be just fine for me and provide all the power I could want. As me, my machinest, and my dyno tuner are going over the current build planned for the car, it appears as though my charger will be maxed out tryin to feed my motor. (Just thought I would point out that the blower is capable of 725 horse...hmmm
)So in the end, whatever size is just right, get the next bigger one assuming you can make it work just as easily and there isn't a huge change in $$.
12-15-2005, 07:51 PM
#5
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Originally Posted by FORCE_FED_Z
What he might be referring to is your sitting at a stop and trying to spool the turbo up. With stock tran and torque convertor, you will be hard pressed to get that turbo spooled up for a decent launch.
Keep in mind that its sometimes easier to build big first and back off initially than try to build small and get max power out of it later.
I would find a turbo that easily supports what you are trying to do now, and go with that. Once you get the feeling of boosted power you are going to want more, trust me. If you get a small one and think that you will be happy with it I think you are in for a surprise and be in the same boat as me.
I bought a 600b Procharger and thought that it would be plenty of power and be just fine for me and provide all the power I could want. As me, my machinest, and my dyno tuner are going over the current build planned for the car, it appears as though my charger will be maxed out tryin to feed my motor. (Just thought I would point out that the blower is capable of 725 horse...hmmm )
So in the end, whatever size is just right, get the next bigger one assuming you can make it work just as easily and there isn't a huge change in $$.
Keep in mind that its sometimes easier to build big first and back off initially than try to build small and get max power out of it later.
I would find a turbo that easily supports what you are trying to do now, and go with that. Once you get the feeling of boosted power you are going to want more, trust me. If you get a small one and think that you will be happy with it I think you are in for a surprise and be in the same boat as me.
I bought a 600b Procharger and thought that it would be plenty of power and be just fine for me and provide all the power I could want. As me, my machinest, and my dyno tuner are going over the current build planned for the car, it appears as though my charger will be maxed out tryin to feed my motor. (Just thought I would point out that the blower is capable of 725 horse...hmmm
)So in the end, whatever size is just right, get the next bigger one assuming you can make it work just as easily and there isn't a huge change in $$.
12-15-2005, 08:55 PM
#6
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yeah i so wanted to got 12 psi and when i first got my turbo
but i went 7 then 10 then 11 then 12...... then got brave and hit skipped to 14 psi and **** my pants
in my car the differenc from 12 to 14 psi is out of this world..... i make 330 WRHP at 8 psi and 456 at 14.5
at 13 psi i can usally not worry about the tires at 14 i have to hold the car on the road....... the pull back on my gut is unreal.
keep doing your research but make sure a stall is included in that
but i went 7 then 10 then 11 then 12...... then got brave and hit skipped to 14 psi and **** my pants
in my car the differenc from 12 to 14 psi is out of this world..... i make 330 WRHP at 8 psi and 456 at 14.5
at 13 psi i can usally not worry about the tires at 14 i have to hold the car on the road....... the pull back on my gut is unreal.
keep doing your research but make sure a stall is included in that
12-15-2005, 10:12 PM
#7
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Well all I really want is 10#'s max.. 6-8#'s capable. Every time I make a post (not on here) people keep telling me to go bigger "You'll want more!", well sorry I don't. My adrenaline stage is long past. I'm too old, and I've destroyed the drivablility of more than one of my cars over the years, pushing and pushing and buying and buying.. I always ended up being very unhappy when the car would turn into a premadonna. Anymore, I just want a VERY street friendly, reliable, daily driver. I just want to get in, drive, and have fun without worrieng if I'm going to creep to 15 pounds and explode, if my headers are going to leak, taking a laptop with me everyhwere I go, or constantly wondering if my stall/fluid is cool enough.
I just want more ***** for the car, and about 330RW max rating. So I'm not looking for a " good launch" as I don't drag, and if I did I'd grenade my open diff. :P I just want alot better oomph off the line, and more ponies than I have now.
I'd prefer not to have a stall. But I do realise I might need one at some point. I also think about my crap rear ratio and it's associated shift points. I get too thinking, and get frustrated with all the variables. So, all that sends me (stupidly) off in another direction. I need to stop that.
The T70 thing was just a razz, wasn't serious. But I do like the spooling and horse numbers on it though. That wasn't a joke.
One step bigger would be the T04E, which isnt that pricey, as long as you don't get anything below a .82 hot side.
I also did this map, it turned out.. interesting, lol. I got the best results with a T04B H, which was a 72% effeciency. Look, and have a good laugh. (read: I am clueless)
http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/8581/wtf2bf.jpg
I just want more ***** for the car, and about 330RW max rating. So I'm not looking for a " good launch" as I don't drag, and if I did I'd grenade my open diff. :P I just want alot better oomph off the line, and more ponies than I have now.
I'd prefer not to have a stall. But I do realise I might need one at some point. I also think about my crap rear ratio and it's associated shift points. I get too thinking, and get frustrated with all the variables. So, all that sends me (stupidly) off in another direction. I need to stop that.
The T70 thing was just a razz, wasn't serious. But I do like the spooling and horse numbers on it though. That wasn't a joke.
One step bigger would be the T04E, which isnt that pricey, as long as you don't get anything below a .82 hot side.
I also did this map, it turned out.. interesting, lol. I got the best results with a T04B H, which was a 72% effeciency. Look, and have a good laugh. (read: I am clueless)
http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/8581/wtf2bf.jpg
12-16-2005, 12:28 AM
#8
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Honestly, the Garrett Super-60 (Grand National turbo) would work pretty well with what you're looking to do. Run a stock wastegate (5-7 psi, if I remember correctly), and you should be fine.
12-16-2005, 04:12 PM
#10
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Originally Posted by EOCF Rabid Dog
Isnt there a few major mechanical differences between our 3.8's? Like CR, lift, etc. etc.?
I wonder how much a Vortech FMU would make my life easier.
I wonder how much a Vortech FMU would make my life easier.
12-18-2005, 02:00 PM
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I didn't mean to jump on your toes with the boost issue, just going with has happened with me and all my buddies. The Boost wagon got us and we are hooked.
I would still say get one that is a little bigger, that way you aren't going max the turbo out tryin to make the power you are going to make. I would say that if you can keep below the 80% threshold it will def. help the longevity of the turbo.
Again, just my .02.. either way it sounds like a fun project and should give you the seat of the pants 'boost' you are lookin for.
I would still say get one that is a little bigger, that way you aren't going max the turbo out tryin to make the power you are going to make. I would say that if you can keep below the 80% threshold it will def. help the longevity of the turbo.
Again, just my .02.. either way it sounds like a fun project and should give you the seat of the pants 'boost' you are lookin for.
12-18-2005, 04:18 PM
#13
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Originally Posted by FORCE_FED_Z
I didn't mean to jump on your toes with the boost issue, just going with has happened with me and all my buddies. The Boost wagon got us and we are hooked.
I would still say get one that is a little bigger, that way you aren't going max the turbo out tryin to make the power you are going to make. I would say that if you can keep below the 80% threshold it will def. help the longevity of the turbo.
Again, just my .02.. either way it sounds like a fun project and should give you the seat of the pants 'boost' you are lookin for.
I would still say get one that is a little bigger, that way you aren't going max the turbo out tryin to make the power you are going to make. I would say that if you can keep below the 80% threshold it will def. help the longevity of the turbo.
Again, just my .02.. either way it sounds like a fun project and should give you the seat of the pants 'boost' you are lookin for.
05-08-2006, 07:05 AM
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Originally Posted by viper04af
yeah i so wanted to got 12 psi and when i first got my turbo
but i went 7 then 10 then 11 then 12...... then got brave and hit skipped to 14 psi and **** my pants
in my car the differenc from 12 to 14 psi is out of this world..... i make 330 WRHP at 8 psi and 456 at 14.5
at 13 psi i can usally not worry about the tires at 14 i have to hold the car on the road....... the pull back on my gut is unreal.
keep doing your research but make sure a stall is included in that
but i went 7 then 10 then 11 then 12...... then got brave and hit skipped to 14 psi and **** my pants
in my car the differenc from 12 to 14 psi is out of this world..... i make 330 WRHP at 8 psi and 456 at 14.5
at 13 psi i can usally not worry about the tires at 14 i have to hold the car on the road....... the pull back on my gut is unreal.
keep doing your research but make sure a stall is included in that
Did you do a lot of supporting mods to bring the boost up to 14psi? I.E stronger rear end, forged internals ect? I know your on auto, but I'm guessing my Clutch (pressure plate) would probably have to be upgraded? Probably to a stage 2?
on another note. You guys feel it would be cheaper buying the Turbo,wastegate,fmu ect separately, and having some performance shop custom make the tubes for me? Or would buying a kit from say carsound (if they ever come out with it) or forcefedfabs be cheaper?