Bryan Rrogers

5 out of 500 is 1%.

I'd be working hard to get that other .9% handled but I'm too busy making sure you put lots of big red words all over the internet, so 99% is going to have to do for you.


In my previous post I said-

"It is very possible that the crossover tube gouged the insides of the rails when MPW installed it the first time with no O-rings. That would aslo cause the O-rings to not seal when you eventually got them.

This is still installer error in my opinion. I mean c'mon, I have nearly a full page in the instructions on testing the rail kit for leaks BEFORE installing the upper."

IF MPW had damaged the tube or rails, dented, bent, gouged, or whatever,
That would be a good reason for the tube to not seal even with O-rings.

I think Nick's did a good job adapting to the situation.

I went way out of my way to find a fix for you and I priced stuff out.

You called out to anyone to feel sorry for you or jump on the hate train by asking if anyone cared that you spent $300 to fix this.

What I see in your pics is no more than $50 (U.S.)worth of braided line and fittings. 2 of the fittings used to make that work came with the intake.

It's obvious that you paid about $250 in labor to have that made up.

That was my point when I said "custom labor can be expensive".

I asked how much the PARTS cost, because most guys in the forums install their own parts and would be able to do this job themselves for $0 labor cost if they really wanted to be like you and eliminate a perfectly fine crossover tube (not bagging on your lack of mechanical ability/desire to work on your own car here).

If you had followed the warranty guidelines and contacted us for an RGA# instead of throwing money at the issue, I would've made an effort to set you up with some sort of free BBK stuff.

Unfortunately that effort has been invested in wasting time correcting you and your mostly false statements in the forums.

Bryan Rrogers

Sorry for making these my first few posts here.

Looks to be an impressive website/forums.

03_Cobra

wow... he has like 3k worth of BBK on his car and you rag on him for not installing it on his own???

you know some enthusiasts like to catalog shop and then have a pro shop install most of their parts...

would the situation have been any different if he was a shadetree mechanic?

peace....

Bryan Rrogers

Not ragging on him at all. (I said I wasn't in the post)

In his Stangnet thread, he had a list of resaons why he didn't install it himself.





Here it is (copied from Stangnet).-
Well, there are a few reasons why i paid someone to install the intake.

1) i don't and didn't have the time. my day consists of long work hours and a brutal commute.

2) the know how. I don't know, and with a new motor in the car, i really don't wanna take any chances... even if there wasn't a built motor, i would pay someone.

3) i have the cash. my hard work affords me the leisure to pay a professional to do the job. everyone makes errors, ***** happens. no damage came up. so what can you do??

I'm not freaking out over this or making to big of a stink. I am just a consumer, i don't what exactly happened to give my car a fuel leak. I am going from what i am being told and what i am seeing.

2TONE_93GT

iTrader: (3)

5 in 1 thread. Not 5 out of 500. Wow, i cant say much else. 1% failure your rate is not bad. But lets look at this differently, out of a thread with
aprox 26 unique posters (including your staff), 5 complained about your product. Now given that post people chimed in with subscribing or other neutral useless remarks, i am being gracious with that 26 unique posters. Now we are looking at a 19.2% unhappy / displeased customer rate, just in that thread.
I know that is a not a direct reflection of BBKs products, but neither is saying 5 people out of 500 sold.

You also said on the phone tubes are cut in house and one could have been short. Maybe you really did send a short crossover. Maybe your kit is flawed. It is very possible that BBK is as responsible as the shops you blame. Lets remember, Nick could only get it to seal with 4 o-rings, not 2 even with your instructions.


Perfectly fine fuel rails. Completely defective fuel rails IMO. Neither you and your instructions, or two shops could get it to work. So either you work is totally perfect and the two shops i went to suck, or your product is'nt that great. Judging by how another user spoke about fuel leaks in that stangnet thread, i'm going to say its plausible that MPW may have screwed up, and that when Nick dealt with the car he was stuck with a defective product. This is all speculation though. As you yourself said, you weren't there to see how it was installed at MPW. Guess what, neither was I.

Wow. Never once in all the times i called you did you mention this RGA# thing. I didn't throw money at it, this was the solution you had provided me. Your solution resulted in me having to spend $300 to fix it. If the parts cost $50, you probably should have stepped up and sent it out to at least have someone who has a few of your products on his car happy. But it was easier for you and BBK to stick it to me online, ignore my questions and comments and try and play the blame game.

But what you don't get Bryan is this. The money i spent, its gone. I am not anticipating you to make right on it anymore. You rather go about and try and discredit everything i'm saying. But for $50 of parts, you sure are willing to let me post my factual happenings and put doubt into a lot of future customers minds... over $50 . And thats just what im saying to people online. What about everyone who may find out about this problem?
We know summit knows, i told them, but what about JC Whitney, Jegs, Keystone etc. Thats a lot of buyers who will see how you treat customers and see how your product actually works. People don't want that kind of liability on their hands.

I think the way you guys handled yourself was unprofessional. I still believe the cross over setup in the BBK SSI intake is a firehazard. That wont change from here on in.

Hey Cobra, had i installed it myself then Bryan would have called installer error. You cant win with this guy. BBK screws up and its always installer error.

Well, i didn't install anything!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
and i still got it stuck to me

Bryan Rrogers

I said the tubes are NOT cut in house.

Regardless, if the parts had been damaged due to installer error, it obviously wouldn't matter how many O-rings it took.

They'd stilll be damaged.
The RGA "thing" is right on our website, just as it's posted here in this thread.

If you had HONESTLY even considered using the warrranty option, you would've known all about it.

Our dealers that you mentioned are fully authorized to handle BBK product returns from their customers. In order to be a BBK distributor they are required to. We don't sell to individuals.

As much as I like to help everyone out on a one on one basis, the fact is, the distributors are our customers, you are thiers.

Our tech support is here to help with installation issues and product questions.

You called here asking how to FIX the problem, not warranty it.

The first time I spoke with I decided that it would be the last.

You yelled, swore, and talked all over me when I was trying to help you on the phone...........well I guess you weren't suprised that I didn't take your call yesterday?

Again, reading your threads., since the first sign of trouble, you've refused to use the warranty option, and you stated very clearly in your posts that even though Nick got your car going with no leaks, you still were determioned to find a way to eliminate the crossover tube.

There is nothing I can do for someone who is determined to do it their way.

Anyone with a legitimate need for help who is wiilling to listen and follow the warratny guidelines has and always will be taken care of to the best of our abilities.

I sent the owners of this company, the customer service manager, and the G.M. links to your threads.

None of them had anything nicer to say about it than what I've posted here.

You've put yourself in this position.
Take care.

2TONE_93GT

iTrader: (3)

I was told by MPW as i have continuously stated to you from the beginning that Mike has said there was a fix for this. That BBK has sent one of their customers a replacement (fix). You deny this happened. Will you deny posting plans of how to eliminate the cross over too ?
This was done because of a leaking fuel rail. I have stated this from the beginning. I reached out for a resolution, i was looking for this "kit" to fix the defective crossover.
I would think that is a warranty concern / question / initiation from the customer. It leaked fuel, you called the shops, you felt it was in good order to ship new o-rings to Nick.
I had bought a BBK SSI Intake and it leaked gas no matter what. Until you sent plans to do another setup. Everything was fine until it cost me another $300 and you guys couldn't even say sorry for it.

A bit of a stretch of the truth. You record calls don't you for customer satisfaction surveys. Post it. Lets see who cut who off and spoke about lawsuits and slander.
.. youve spent enough time on this, might as well go the extra mile... and

You were rude on the phone, you kept interupting me until i said "dont interupt me". I may have gotten upset and cursed, but only you gave me the big story about slander and defamation. Again, call you lawyer, SUE ME ! You guys are so full of crap putting baseless threats online and over the phone and cant even back it up. Why, because you sell a defective product and you know what will happen.
These shops will get called to the stand and say the same thing about your product, IT LEAKS AND ITS DANGEROUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I didn't refuse warranty. I called BBK for help. In fact, and ill say again, i had only contacted Summit Racing on the eve of sending you my final email.
I took your suggestions, from a BBK REP on how to fix YOUR defective product. How is that not following guidelines. LOL, you are totally lost. This isn't like i told Nick to do the work and then called you, i called you first and you suggested it.

Your product should work with the o-rings supplied. are you suggesting that when Nick got it to work with MORE o-rings i should have been satisfied, are you lost ? If my car had a fire then you would have cried improper installation again.

You informed everyone in your office, good. I left him Byran Murphy my number, if someone has something to say, they can post it, call me, register mail me etc. But regardless if he calls me back or not I will continue to update this thread, other forums and other websites about this issue until i get tired of talking about it. I will let the consumers out there make up their own mind about your product.
Furthermore, I find it hard to believe that a General Manager of a business wants a customer who has spent over $3000 dollars talking about his product that is dangerous. But hey, its his business, i really don't care. I am the customer who got the shaft and could have been injured.

I truly don't believe i put myself in this position, i believe due to the BBK SSI Intake that leaks fuel and is a fire hazard i was put here.

I really don't want to spend to much time replying to your posts, i've already wasted enough money & time dealing with bbk performance defective products.

I look forward to your next post. So far, doesn't look good. This thread hasn't been closed and with the 1800 views on stangnet, and the views starting to go up here.... its just all bad news and a waste of time for all parties involved. Problem with this is, i have nothing to lose, I've already paid. And all this for your apparent $50 is parts and my $300 in costs. People may think i was excessive and may believe that somehow i made this up, while they will look at your product and see potential fire hazzard.

Take care

8 UR VETTE

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sell it and put an RPMII on the car!

imported_admin_old

WOW is an understatement !

imported_Brandon

[QUOTE=Bryan Rrogers;4271]I said the tubes are NOT cut in house.

Regardless, if the parts had been damaged due to installer error, it obviously wouldn't matter how many O-rings it took.

They'd stilll be damaged.
QUOTE]

Here's my view on this and take it as you will, but when a company sends me something as a package, meaning almost everything, if not everything, that's required to install the product comes in the box with the product, whether the parts are manufactured in house or in Timbucktoo, it's the companies problem ie: BBK, not mine or the shop that installed the product, if something doesn't fit correctly.

Also, if your product doesn't say something along the lines of: If not installed by authorized dealer/shop warranty is void.....then it shouldn't matter who installed it, it's STILL BBK's problem and the consumer can't held responsible unless he altered something or was just an idiot and f-ed something up which is obviously not the case here, MPW and Nick are pretty reputable shops with certified mechanics. It wasn't like the mechanics altered the tube, it didn't fit in the first place and they went by what you said to get it fixed, so once again IMO, your problem, not Rick's.

One more thing I'd like to add, it has been said that it took 4 o-rings before the leak stopped, I'mm assuming that would mean either 2 on each end or 4 on one end....either way....if it leaks with one o-ring on each end, I'd have sent it straight back and either asked for my money back, or had you ship the proper length tube.
If I had designed a product, tested it and marketed and sold it, it wouldn't have left my factory without being tested extensively....I realize R&D is expensive, but it's my/your name on the line and something as simple as checking for proper tube lengths might take a second or 2. If, as you said, the tube isn't cut in house, then you need to be down the throat of the company that did cut it.

Just my 2 cents, take it as you will, I'm just calling it as I see it.

8 UR VETTE

My Aeromotive fuel rails dont leak. WTF??????????????

Bryan Rrogers

Brandon-

Thanks for the reply.

All of the items in the SSI kit were tested extensively in-house, on an independent engine dyno, on my personal cars, and on more than a few of my own customers cars (people that have me work on their Stangs on the side). The SSI was actually far behind schedule due to the extensiveness of the testing. I did EVERYTHING I could to make sure it was the very best it could be. I did some downright mean stuff to it to make sure it could handle the real world of boost and N2O.

It doesn't look like the real cause of this customer's leak will ever be determined because, instead of giving me the info that I needed in order to replace whatever was wrong (which I normally do), the customer went ahead and had the shop modify the parts.

Nobody ever contacted me to verify the length of the tube. Sure, after the car was already up and running, he posted an unreadable photo of the tube next to a ruler on a table in his thread. I needed EXACT measurements to determine whether or not the tube was made wrong.

I still don't have proof of the tube being wrong.

Since this thread is geting pretty long and lame, you might be unaware that the intake was initially installed (and given back to the customer) with no O-rings on the crossover tube at all. This means there was direct contact between the bare ends of the crossover tube (steel) and the sealing areas on the fuel rails (aluminum). That alone would cause significant damage to the O-ring sealing areas on the rails.

As I've stated before, if the tube or rail is damaged in the sealing area, it might never seal at all even with extra O-rings.

I don't know, and like I said before, am never going to know if the tube was made wrong/damaged, or the rails were gouged due to this installation error.

The customer claims that MPW badmouthed the product when he brought it in for installation, and he claims that they told him that there had been a SSI related fire at MPW (which is why he says MPW recommended a different intake).

Not accusing here, but it is kinda interesting that even after that, THEY still left out the O-rings anyways. Even though there is almost a whole page dedicated to pre-testing the rails for leaks, and a complete parts list in the SSI instructions that I wrote and verified.

When I read the customer's first email to me and this "fire" was mentioned, I became concerened. I called MPW immediately (before I had ever spoken with or replied to the customer). The guy in charge there said that he never actually had a fire, but he did mention something in a negative tone about people talking on the internet. (I now know what he meant about that).

Going off of this rumor of fire, the customer decided then and there that he was not going to settle for the design of the rails. He set out on 2 missions. (1)To make the rails work without the crossover tube and (2) to tell the world (via Mustang forums) that the BBK fuel rails are badly designed and that you are in danger of your car catching fire if you have them. Recently he even sent me a P.M. telling me that he hopes nobody dies because of me.

Anyhow, he initally contacted me to see if there was a way to use the SSI rails without the tube. He was bound and determined (as it says in his threads) to get around the crossover tube design.

Now being a Mustang enthusiast, and a creative guy (and loving a challenge), I sat down and honestly spent the better part of a day researching a solution for him.

I just so happened to have a set of rails on my Cobra that I modified for the upcoming SSI-R box type upper that I'm developing.

Just for the record, the R rails still use the crossover tube.

The only thing that is different about them is that the regulator doesn't mount to the rail. It's a remote mount that is linked to the rail via fuel line hose and a few fittings. I used that as a starting point and figured out how to modify our Universal Rial Kit (BBK Part # 5010) to work for him.(No crossover tube in that kit, but it's not designed to work with the SSI)

I spent quite a bit of time on the web and the phone researching the tools and parts that Nick would need to do the job. I even contacted the manufacturer of one of the unique pieces (that I had trouble finding) to locate one of their dealers that was local to the customer since I knew he lived on the other side of the continent from me. Then I pulled a set of rails out that I had polished for my McLaren and performed the same job that Nick would be doing on my own rails while I wrote the instructions and even took pictures for reference.

I put all of that together in an email and sent it to him and Nick. I also posted it in his thread.

For this effort, he accused me of having those instructions already made, because he claims I knew there was a problem with the rails and those instructions were for an emergency fix in case someone complained.

Now obviously, after spending that time and putting forth that effort FOR HIM, I'm wasn't about to let him or anyone come to the forums and say that I or BBK did him wrong.

After Nick modified his existing rails (again, nice job Nick) he posted that it was all good. I even congratulated him and sent kudos to Nick for getting it done.

Not being able to leave it at that, he posts "Nobody cares that it cost me an extra $300 to fix this"?

Well Brandon, I cared enough to go out of my way to research that stuff and create those instructions so he could have Nick modify our product to his liking.

I made someone else care enough to stay late and wait for their car that night because I had put off working on it to work on that stuff for him. I convinced the owner of the car that the time I spent on those instructions was worth him missing dinner with his wife and kids for.

By now everyone knows that I care enough to make sure that anyone that reads his side of the story gets a chance to read mine and that questions and statements made regarding this are answered directly and personally.

But on the other hand, do I (or does anyone) care that he paid a shop $300 to perform custom labor (which can be expensive) to assemble a few fittings onto a BBK rail kit because it was in HIS mission statement?

I can't say that I do.

If he REALLY wanted BBK to take care of the problem, all he would've had to do is give me the info that I asked for so I could get him a new tube, or new rails, or whatever it took to make him happy, (just like I did with the O-rings) but since it was his mission to eliminate that tube, he did not.

Instead he paid a shop to modify the product THEN posted that BBK should just whip out a $300 check and send it to him to cover Nick's services.

Someone at the shop printed and hung that post up over the usual Dilbert cartoon at the watercooler.

Bryan Rrogers

During engine dyno testing for a 5.0 and Superfords intake shootout they wanted to use Vortech rails on all of the intakes for the test.

We found that the driver side Vortech rail hit the stock 86-93 distibutor. We tried them on every intkae and they still hit.

At the time, our prototype rails had fuel line hose connecting them together. We ended up using the BBK protos for all of the tests.

That's where we got the idea to make a Universal Rail Kit (5010) for all other intakes other than the SSI.

Distributor clearance is why the BBK rails have a special fitting at the end of the driver side rail. I made sure the end of the rail was as far away (it's still close) as possible.

Summit sells BBK 5010 which is a complete kit including hoses for $410 less than the Aeromotive kit that has hoses and fittings in it and 5010 is $30 less than the low buck Aeromotive kit (rails only)

Their rails are 5/8" I.D.
For applications up to 2,000 HP.

Ours are 1/2" I.D.
They "only" support up to 1,500 H.P.

Do the Aeromtive rails hit the dizzy?

2TONE_93GT

iTrader: (3)

I didn't take the pictures.
You emailed Nick for the measurements. You asked Nick for the pictures. You had direct contact with everyone, you called them. Only person you never called was me, and i am up from 9 am till 1 am everyday. But whatever, i was able to get a hold of you. You were able to get a hold of the shops, so i don't know where or why the communication failed there.

I never accused MPW of doing the job wrong, but i did repeat exactly what they said; that the BBK SSI intake will leak fuel because it had happened to a customer before, you will lost boost, there was a car fire before and bbk sent out replacement pieces.

After BBK posted all that information that i provided in an email and called MPW, only then did MPW deny any car fire. I didn't post any of that online for your sake and theirs, you guys brought it out in the open.

I will personally goto Nicks today and see if i can get the pics off his camera, but sounds to me you're just determined to not look after your customer. (as i wrote this i took my own pics)

As for how i based my decisions, it went like this:

1) bought intake from summit racing.

2) brought intake to MPW, MPW slammed the product and called it junk. Convinced i liked it i wanted it installed, not to send it back. Vibe was he 'may want to sell me his own products'. He did mention care fire, fuel leak, losing boost product is garbage.

3) car sent to Nicks for blower install. Nick notices fuel leak. Nick pulls intake a part and i send an email to you guys.

4) intake continues to leak on Nick, new o-rings are 'shipped' fedex but BBK claims they came back. Possible, not a concern.

5) o-rings arrive, intake still leaks, nick uses double the o-rings to stop leaking. Nick himself says he would not trust this setup, its not safe.

6) contact BBK for help. bbk provides documentation to goto a braided line setup. $300 later my BBK SSI intake stops leaking fuel.

I made every decision about this intake initially because i liked the product and believed in it. Then i made the decision to call you guys to have it fixed because i was told by shops and witnessed first hand the fuel leaked


As you said, $50 in parts, all this could have been avoidable.
Anyhow, I've never had a problem like this before. Shops and company's make mistakes, it happens, but the way you guys worked me over was not cool.
Here are the pictures i took, i hope these help you do the right thing. Then maybe all these threads can go away. If you require MORE pictures, i can provide them.

Bryan Rrogers

As stated in the last paragraph of the BBK Warranty Guidelines. (taken from our website)

If a defect is determined, the item will be immediately fixed or replaced at no cost to the consumer. However, BBK will not reimburse any person(s) for cost of labor or any other costs incurred by the item in question.



That pic that you posted with the ruler is useable.

But now that the car is up and running and looking custom with a braided hose crossover running around the back of the intake, and your money has been spent.....

What good would it do?

Say I did measure a tube out based on your pic and it happened to be too short, then what? I send you new tube? It's useless now.

Like the W.G.'s say, my only options are to fix or replace the parts at no cost to you.

So what is the "right thing"? Send you a part that no longer applies to your application?

I'm sure it's day time in Mississauga . Maybe you should go get in your car and take it on a long drive and enjoy it.