What is harder on your car? Drag or road course?
02-25-2005, 01:28 AM
#31
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Originally Posted by Zlatko
I still maintain that it GREATLY varies with the car.
a 6.XX second dragster breaks something every run, sometimes if they're lucky, every 2 runs, they have to swap blown components like hotcakes.
Roadracing can also be with stock cars, as long as you dont constantly keep the car's revs deep in the reds, your car will be fine, but it also depends on how long of a beating your car endures..
It always depends on the circumstances.
a 6.XX second dragster breaks something every run, sometimes if they're lucky, every 2 runs, they have to swap blown components like hotcakes.
Roadracing can also be with stock cars, as long as you dont constantly keep the car's revs deep in the reds, your car will be fine, but it also depends on how long of a beating your car endures..
It always depends on the circumstances.
Again given the same car, the road course will definitely cause much more excessive component wear and premature failure over drag racing. Ask anyone who tracks their car and they will concur. A road racer sees more chassis stress, suspension stress, breaks wear, more engine use for a much longer time that you ever see in the 1/4 etc. For example, who has ever heard of a manaul transmission or differential overheating in a drag race????
02-25-2005, 10:18 AM
#32
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Originally Posted by RacerRick
Anyways, you are rarely running at the redline while road racing. Most of time you are somewhere in the midrange. Most cars torque peaks are well below the redline, and that is where you want to be coming out of corner. Gives you maximum accelleration before having to shift just past the horsepower peak.
02-25-2005, 10:24 AM
#33
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Originally Posted by cL0wn_p3n0r
But no 6 second car could ever run on a road course nor could any curve carver run a 6. So that example really doesn't fit, and we are talking about the same car.
Again given the same car, the road course will definitely cause much more excessive component wear and premature failure over drag racing. Ask anyone who tracks their car and they will concur. A road racer sees more chassis stress, suspension stress, breaks wear, more engine use for a much longer time that you ever see in the 1/4 etc. For example, who has ever heard of a manaul transmission or differential overheating in a drag race????
Again given the same car, the road course will definitely cause much more excessive component wear and premature failure over drag racing. Ask anyone who tracks their car and they will concur. A road racer sees more chassis stress, suspension stress, breaks wear, more engine use for a much longer time that you ever see in the 1/4 etc. For example, who has ever heard of a manaul transmission or differential overheating in a drag race????
02-25-2005, 12:13 PM
#34
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What are you talking about?
Road racing does not have a drag style launch at the beginning. Lemans style starts are no longer done anywhere, and you start actually racing after a lap or two to warm up the tires from a flying start....
No form of road racing I know of starts from a dead stop, anywhere.
Also - if you are overheating a transmission, you have a serious cooling issue. Has nothing to do with whether or not road racing stress is worse for the car. It means that the car has a serious inadequetcy in cooling.
If you are running a turbo V6, you should not be reving it to the redline constantly. Your turbo gives you a ton of torque, and when you change gears, you want the RPM to drop to your torque peak and climb to your HP peak - that will give you the best accelleration. Just because you are reving it real high, doesn't mean that is the fastest way down the track.
My car redlines at 7000rpm, but through dyno testing, we found it make peak power at 5500rpm with a torque peak at 3800rpm and a very flat torque band.
I shift it at about 5800-6000rpm because I have a wide ratio trans and it drops the rpm to about the torque peak. Even though I could rev it to 7000rpm, there is no need to, and I would go slower. A transmission with closer ratios would allow me to shift right at the HP peak and drop less RPM so I am still near peak torque.
Road racing does not have a drag style launch at the beginning. Lemans style starts are no longer done anywhere, and you start actually racing after a lap or two to warm up the tires from a flying start....
No form of road racing I know of starts from a dead stop, anywhere.
Also - if you are overheating a transmission, you have a serious cooling issue. Has nothing to do with whether or not road racing stress is worse for the car. It means that the car has a serious inadequetcy in cooling.
If you are running a turbo V6, you should not be reving it to the redline constantly. Your turbo gives you a ton of torque, and when you change gears, you want the RPM to drop to your torque peak and climb to your HP peak - that will give you the best accelleration. Just because you are reving it real high, doesn't mean that is the fastest way down the track.
My car redlines at 7000rpm, but through dyno testing, we found it make peak power at 5500rpm with a torque peak at 3800rpm and a very flat torque band.
I shift it at about 5800-6000rpm because I have a wide ratio trans and it drops the rpm to about the torque peak. Even though I could rev it to 7000rpm, there is no need to, and I would go slower. A transmission with closer ratios would allow me to shift right at the HP peak and drop less RPM so I am still near peak torque.
Last edited by RacerRick; 02-25-2005 at 12:32 PM.
02-25-2005, 02:00 PM
#35
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Well to start off I have done about 25 lapping days in the last four years with my 97 Z24, wether it be on street tires or R compounds. As for damage to the car because of lapping I would have to say there was no damage but damage caused by my own little mistake a missed shift caused a bent valve. I have also been autocrossing the car in those four years maybe at the most 15 to 20 times a season and while doing that not one mechanical failure, but due to my own mistake I had one problem a nice spun bearing.
So taking your car to a track(road course) really isn't that bad for the car the motor can take it because most of you guys would get tired after about 15 minutes on track anyways. If your car has not been well maintained then you could have troubles but it's the same as flying down the 401 hitting a pothole etc.
As far as brakes go I have done a whole season on GM brakepads and still had more then enough to drive home at the end of the season, and that is by going slow on the first lap and letting everything warm up like the pads and then gradually building up the speed. Tires are going to wear out weather your on track or the drag strip, you may get more shoulder wear from lapping or you might get an even lose of tread across the tire from spinning off the line about the same after a while.
So taking your car to a track(road course) really isn't that bad for the car the motor can take it because most of you guys would get tired after about 15 minutes on track anyways. If your car has not been well maintained then you could have troubles but it's the same as flying down the 401 hitting a pothole etc.
As far as brakes go I have done a whole season on GM brakepads and still had more then enough to drive home at the end of the season, and that is by going slow on the first lap and letting everything warm up like the pads and then gradually building up the speed. Tires are going to wear out weather your on track or the drag strip, you may get more shoulder wear from lapping or you might get an even lose of tread across the tire from spinning off the line about the same after a while.
02-25-2005, 02:05 PM
#36
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Originally Posted by RacerRick
What are you talking about?
No form of road racing I know of starts from a dead stop, anywhere.
.
No form of road racing I know of starts from a dead stop, anywhere.
.
umm Formula one? Honda Miciehlin series?, some types of karting(125 shifter karts sometimes) Speed GT and Touring classes. But they generally only do it once and then they are motoring after that, they don't do it fifteen times in a day or more.
02-26-2005, 08:11 PM
#37
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Originally Posted by RacerRick
What are you talking about?
Road racing does not have a drag style launch at the beginning. Lemans style starts are no longer done anywhere, and you start actually racing after a lap or two to warm up the tires from a flying start....
No form of road racing I know of starts from a dead stop, anywhere.
Road racing does not have a drag style launch at the beginning. Lemans style starts are no longer done anywhere, and you start actually racing after a lap or two to warm up the tires from a flying start....
No form of road racing I know of starts from a dead stop, anywhere.
Originally Posted by RacerRick
Also - if you are overheating a transmission, you have a serious cooling issue. Has nothing to do with whether or not road racing stress is worse for the car. It means that the car has a serious inadequetcy in cooling.
Overheating a transmission does not signify that you have a serious cooling issue. Even the T56 in a ZO6 and F-body will overheat after some serious track racing.
Last edited by cL0wn_p3n0r; 02-26-2005 at 08:16 PM.
02-27-2005, 09:47 AM
#38
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Road racing requires you to do everything you do in a drag race minus the launch for more than 13 seconds. and mostly close to 30 min or however long you are ripping it. you say that you dont need to ever put your car close to its maximum acceleration limits in road racing? so i guess schumacher only goes 75% throttle down the straights and shifts at 14000 rpm instead of 18000....definatly not.
just because YOUR car dosent make power at the top end does not mean that everybody elses car makes no power at redline.
when you beat your car on the road track you break stuff that was fine before and find out where all the weaknesses are in your car. and ontop of that you put wear on all of the stuff you do in a drag car + the suspension brakes ect.
i think you need to get out more RacerRick
just because YOUR car dosent make power at the top end does not mean that everybody elses car makes no power at redline.
when you beat your car on the road track you break stuff that was fine before and find out where all the weaknesses are in your car. and ontop of that you put wear on all of the stuff you do in a drag car + the suspension brakes ect.
i think you need to get out more RacerRick
Last edited by DTS; 02-27-2005 at 09:52 AM.
02-27-2005, 10:55 PM
#39
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Originally Posted by DTS
Road racing requires you to do everything you do in a drag race minus the launch for more than 13 seconds. and mostly close to 30 min or however long you are ripping it. you say that you dont need to ever put your car close to its maximum acceleration limits in road racing? so i guess schumacher only goes 75% throttle down the straights and shifts at 14000 rpm instead of 18000....definatly not.
just because YOUR car dosent make power at the top end does not mean that everybody elses car makes no power at redline.
when you beat your car on the road track you break stuff that was fine before and find out where all the weaknesses are in your car. and ontop of that you put wear on all of the stuff you do in a drag car + the suspension brakes ect.
i think you need to get out more RacerRick
just because YOUR car dosent make power at the top end does not mean that everybody elses car makes no power at redline.
when you beat your car on the road track you break stuff that was fine before and find out where all the weaknesses are in your car. and ontop of that you put wear on all of the stuff you do in a drag car + the suspension brakes ect.
i think you need to get out more RacerRick
Ok I think a Formula one car is a little different from a passenger car and besides that Shoemaker hardly has to do anything especially after he get that 30 second lead. Alot of cars make there power below the redline most start to fall on there face before the redline.
And again if you busting your car at a lapping day you are seriously doing something wrong, the only times I have ever seen stuff brake is when it is with a bunch of young guy that are all out to impress there friend and they make the mistakes that cause the brakage. I a smooth road course that is smoother then a down town street or a country road will do less damage, Driving on a track is not about throwing your car around. You have to learn how your car handles and then drive with in it's limit. if your going into a turn you don't just crank on the steering wheel or jump on the brakes, you have to preload everything or slowly start the turnin so the weight of the car begins to transfer across to the oppisite side of the turn and the brakes are the same slowly build heat on your first lap so you are less likly to get any fade.
Oh well the both of them can be hazardous to your car and health and should be done carfully. Wear a seatbelt and a helmit(moreso if at a road circut) and hold your steering wheel properly not like some moron with his arm stretched out and holding the top of the wheel
this is my 25 cents worth and I beleave taking your car to the track is harmless.
02-28-2005, 10:41 AM
#40
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When I was watching formula 1 they had flying starts with a pace vehicle.
But it has been so boring I haven't watched it in a while. When I was at watkins glenn, everything was flying starts also. So I admit I might be wrong there.
If you have a car that makes maximum power at its redline, you are a moron. Even Shumachers engine makes its power peak below its redline. If his power peak is 14,000rpm - he will shift it around there. There is no need to go higher and all it does is stress his engine more and SLOW HIM DOWN. If his power peak is at 18,000rpm, which is the same as his redline and he misses one shift - he gets to be towed into the pits.
Why would you want to make peak power at your engines breaking point? That is just stupid. It leaves zero margin for error. Even a good drag engine makes power a signifigant rpm below its redline.
Also - where did I say you only go at 75% throttle? All I said is where you want to shift. Come out to the track and shift at your redline - all you are doing is beating up on your motor if its power peak is lower. If your power peak is at or above your redline...see above.
Since everyone is talking about they don't know about, why not come to a lapping day this year at any one of the local race tracks? Within a couple hours there is Dunnville, TMP, Shannonville, and Mosport. SoloZ has a lot more experience than me in his stock Cavilier and he is pretty damn fast around a track.
Come out and prove me wrong.
But it has been so boring I haven't watched it in a while. When I was at watkins glenn, everything was flying starts also. So I admit I might be wrong there.
If you have a car that makes maximum power at its redline, you are a moron. Even Shumachers engine makes its power peak below its redline. If his power peak is 14,000rpm - he will shift it around there. There is no need to go higher and all it does is stress his engine more and SLOW HIM DOWN. If his power peak is at 18,000rpm, which is the same as his redline and he misses one shift - he gets to be towed into the pits.
Why would you want to make peak power at your engines breaking point? That is just stupid. It leaves zero margin for error. Even a good drag engine makes power a signifigant rpm below its redline.
Also - where did I say you only go at 75% throttle? All I said is where you want to shift. Come out to the track and shift at your redline - all you are doing is beating up on your motor if its power peak is lower. If your power peak is at or above your redline...see above.
Since everyone is talking about they don't know about, why not come to a lapping day this year at any one of the local race tracks? Within a couple hours there is Dunnville, TMP, Shannonville, and Mosport. SoloZ has a lot more experience than me in his stock Cavilier and he is pretty damn fast around a track.
Come out and prove me wrong.
02-28-2005, 02:03 PM
#41
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Originally Posted by RacerRick
When I was watching formula 1 they had flying starts with a pace vehicle.
Originally Posted by RacerRick
If you have a car that makes maximum power at its redline, you are a moron. Even Shumachers engine makes its power peak below its redline. If his power peak is 14,000rpm - he will shift it around there. There is no need to go higher and all it does is stress his engine more and SLOW HIM DOWN. If his power peak is at 18,000rpm, which is the same as his redline and he misses one shift - he gets to be towed into the pits.
02-28-2005, 04:16 PM
#42
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^^^ Probably because thats where they make there maximum horse power, there engines are extremly hightech they can change how the car runs and a tonn more but during that qualifying period it doesn't seem to matter if the engine blows up but for race day I think they change it so it is a little more reliable and will last the race. I am not sure what size the engines are right now but 2.4 seems to be stuck in my head if that is the case and they are using V10's then the pistons are tiny and the throw of the crank shaft isn't going to be very big either. I think this year or is it next that they will be running 2.4 litre V8s. So with such a small displacement they are kinda forced to run such high RPM's and they wont have much of any torque.
02-28-2005, 05:48 PM
#43
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Originally Posted by RacerRick
When I was watching formula 1 they had flying starts with a pace vehicle.
But it has been so boring I haven't watched it in a while. When I was at watkins glenn, everything was flying starts also. So I admit I might be wrong there.
If you have a car that makes maximum power at its redline, you are a moron. Even Shumachers engine makes its power peak below its redline. If his power peak is 14,000rpm - he will shift it around there. There is no need to go higher and all it does is stress his engine more and SLOW HIM DOWN. If his power peak is at 18,000rpm, which is the same as his redline and he misses one shift - he gets to be towed into the pits.
Why would you want to make peak power at your engines breaking point? That is just stupid. It leaves zero margin for error. Even a good drag engine makes power a signifigant rpm below its redline.
Also - where did I say you only go at 75% throttle? All I said is where you want to shift. Come out to the track and shift at your redline - all you are doing is beating up on your motor if its power peak is lower. If your power peak is at or above your redline...see above.
Since everyone is talking about they don't know about, why not come to a lapping day this year at any one of the local race tracks? Within a couple hours there is Dunnville, TMP, Shannonville, and Mosport. SoloZ has a lot more experience than me in his stock Cavilier and he is pretty damn fast around a track.
Come out and prove me wrong.
But it has been so boring I haven't watched it in a while. When I was at watkins glenn, everything was flying starts also. So I admit I might be wrong there.
If you have a car that makes maximum power at its redline, you are a moron. Even Shumachers engine makes its power peak below its redline. If his power peak is 14,000rpm - he will shift it around there. There is no need to go higher and all it does is stress his engine more and SLOW HIM DOWN. If his power peak is at 18,000rpm, which is the same as his redline and he misses one shift - he gets to be towed into the pits.
Why would you want to make peak power at your engines breaking point? That is just stupid. It leaves zero margin for error. Even a good drag engine makes power a signifigant rpm below its redline.
Also - where did I say you only go at 75% throttle? All I said is where you want to shift. Come out to the track and shift at your redline - all you are doing is beating up on your motor if its power peak is lower. If your power peak is at or above your redline...see above.
Since everyone is talking about they don't know about, why not come to a lapping day this year at any one of the local race tracks? Within a couple hours there is Dunnville, TMP, Shannonville, and Mosport. SoloZ has a lot more experience than me in his stock Cavilier and he is pretty damn fast around a track.
Come out and prove me wrong.
02-28-2005, 05:58 PM
#44
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The Road course is harder on your car period there is no argument! In drag you might snap drive shafts,smoke clutches, blow up motors. On the road course you can do all of that + blow shock seals, tear up bushings, use up your ball joints, tear off body work(its going to happen sooner or later), kill tires, kill brake parts - pads/rotors/master cylinder, wear out bearings.
If someone tells you that your car is better off going to the road course then the drag strip well they must drive pretty slow at the road course. They must be one of those people who are happy when their car
"handles like its on rails".
If someone tells you that your car is better off going to the road course then the drag strip well they must drive pretty slow at the road course. They must be one of those people who are happy when their car
"handles like its on rails".
02-28-2005, 10:44 PM
#45
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Originally Posted by soloz
^^^ Probably because thats where they make there maximum horse power, there engines are extremly hightech they can change how the car runs and a tonn more but during that qualifying period it doesn't seem to matter if the engine blows up but for race day I think they change it so it is a little more reliable and will last the race.
Originally Posted by soloz
I am not sure what size the engines are right now but 2.4 seems to be stuck in my head if that is the case and they are using V10's then the pistons are tiny and the throw of the crank shaft isn't going to be very big either. I think this year or is it next that they will be running 2.4 litre V8s. So with such a small displacement they are kinda forced to run such high RPM's and they wont have much of any torque.