08 civic warm up issues
 

-35C here this morning.

My daily commute is about 35kms, mostly highway. I started the car
and allowed it to run for about 5 minutes. The block heater was
plugged in, so no excuses for being too cold. After the brief warmup,
its about 100ft to the highway, then highway speeds.

The temp gauge never moved the whole way to the city (20kms). I
finally got it to go to about 1/4 by running in a lower gear at higher
RPM, but it normally runs around 1/2. And when I came to red lights
in the city, the temp gauge would go down to 0 within a minute.

Called the dealer today, and just like every other problem I have
(touchy brakes, rattles), 'its normal operation' and he recommended I
don't run the heater fan at full blast. Problem is, at 1/2, the
heater barely warms up the interior of the car. However, with the
heater fan running slower, I was able to get the car to the normal
spot on the gauge after about 25 minutes.

We got this 2008 civic LX in January 2007. Never noticed any problems
last winter, but it really was never this cold either. The car has
32000kms on it, 2 oil changes.

I have checked the coolant level in the radiator and the resevoir, and
both are perfectly fine. Entertained damming the radiator with
cardboard, however, the outside surface of the rad is not accessible
without removing one of the plastic shrouds on the bumper. At these
temps, its not enjoyable to be outside working on this, and besides,
the plastic clips would just break due to the temperature (already
broke 1).

I have seen some Civic hybrid forums talk about using pipe insulation
from Home Depot to block the openings in the grill. I may try that
yet, but I just have this feeling that something is wrong. I have
owned many Hondas, and have never had a problem with the vehicle
reaching operating temperature.

Has anyone else experienced this problem? Anything I am missing here?

Thanks
Terry in Winnipeg

Re: 08 civic warm up issues
 

loewent <loewent@gmail.com> wrote in news:0fd0771f-d87b-448a-85aa-
2e472abaf35b@t11g2000yqg.googlegroups.com:

<snip>

>
> Has anyone else experienced this problem? Anything I am missing here?
>
> Thanks
> Terry in Winnipeg
>



-35C is -31F. That is awfully cold. Still, if you can't get decent heat
after 15 miles of driving, I think you have a defective thermostat.

Rather than fooling with this yourself, your dealer should replace the
thermostat under the warranty that you are still very much within.

You paid for that warranty as part of the purchase price of your car, so
use it.

If the dealer gives you the runaround, call Honda Canada directly. The
phone number is in your warranty manual. In case you can't locate that, the
number is 1-888-946-6329. Their hours are 8 to 7:30 eastern time.

My mama grew up in Winnipeg (West Kildonan), and she has told me horror
stories of the cold out there!
My wife's mother was born in Alberta. It's even COLDER there. She was an
elementary school teacher (retired last year). Yard duty at 40-below is no
fun at all. That's right, the kids were in the schoolyard through recess
even at 40-below.

--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: 08 civic warm up issues
 

If you car over heats in the summer, it's somtimes recommnded to turn
heater on and the fan on full to help cool the motor in an emergency.

I think the dealer was right about Not running the fan on full, at
least not until the car heats up first.
Keep the fan in the middle till then.
Bg

Re: 08 civic warm up issues
 

I've lived in this climate all my life. The first thing you do when
you start your car in the morning is turn the heat and fan to FULL
BLAST because its EFFEN COLD.

I don't drive a Kia, I drive a Honda. I expect they would design the
vehicle to function properly in cold weather, as they are selling cars
in this climate.

t

On Jan 15, 12:14 am, ottg...@hotmail.com wrote:
> If you car over heats in the summer, it's somtimes recommnded to turn
> heater on and the fan on full to help cool the motor in an emergency.
>
> I think the dealer was right about Not running the fan on full, at
> least not until the car heats up first.
> Keep the fan in the middle till then.
> Bg

Re: 08 civic warm up issues
 

loewent <loewent@gmail.com> wrote in news:6ff4fbbb-17b7-4d39-9a02-
1d140c7f540a@a12g2000pro.googlegroups.com:

> I've lived in this climate all my life. The first thing you do when
> you start your car in the morning is turn the heat and fan to FULL
> BLAST because its EFFEN COLD.
>
> I don't drive a Kia, I drive a Honda. I expect they would design the
> vehicle to function properly in cold weather, as they are selling cars
> in this climate.



They do, of course.

It is true, though, that turning the interior heater on cools the engine,
and may cool it excessively in very cold weather. However, the thermostat's
job is to keep shut until the engine has reached full operating temerature,
which WILL eventually happen in spite of anything the heater core is doing.

If your dealer is proving to be an idiot and you've made numerous attempts
to have the car looked at, you need to call Honda Canada.

You can also ask the dealer to look and see if there are any TSBs on this
issue. I find it absolutely astounding how often they fail to do this
simple check. I see nothing on my end, but my docs are not complete.




--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: 08 civic warm up issues
 

On Jan 14, 9:56 pm, loewent <loew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> -35C here this morning.
>
> My daily commute is about 35kms, mostly highway. I started the car
> and allowed it to run for about 5 minutes. The block heater was
> plugged in, so no excuses for being too cold. After the brief warmup,
> its about 100ft to the highway, then highway speeds.
>
> The temp gauge never moved the whole way to the city (20kms). I
> finally got it to go to about 1/4 by running in a lower gear at higher
> RPM, but it normally runs around 1/2. And when I came to red lights
> in the city, the temp gauge would go down to 0 within a minute.
>
> Called the dealer today, and just like every other problem I have
> (touchy brakes, rattles), 'its normal operation' and he recommended I
> don't run the heater fan at full blast. Problem is, at 1/2, the
> heater barely warms up the interior of the car. However, with the
> heater fan running slower, I was able to get the car to the normal
> spot on the gauge after about 25 minutes.
>
> We got this 2008 civic LX in January 2007. Never noticed any problems
> last winter, but it really was never this cold either. The car has
> 32000kms on it, 2 oil changes.
>
> I have checked the coolant level in the radiator and the resevoir, and
> both are perfectly fine. Entertained damming the radiator with
> cardboard, however, the outside surface of the rad is not accessible
> without removing one of the plastic shrouds on the bumper. At these
> temps, its not enjoyable to be outside working on this, and besides,
> the plastic clips would just break due to the temperature (already
> broke 1).
>
> I have seen some Civic hybrid forums talk about using pipe insulation
> from Home Depot to block the openings in the grill. I may try that
> yet, but I just have this feeling that something is wrong. I have
> owned many Hondas, and have never had a problem with the vehicle
> reaching operating temperature.
>
> Has anyone else experienced this problem? Anything I am missing here?
>
> Thanks
> Terry in Winnipeg

Hi live in Winnipeg too and my 2001 honda civic is doing exactly the
same thing. Please let me know if you find out what is causing this
to happen.

Re: 08 civic warm up issues
 

Tegger wrote:
> loewent <loewent@gmail.com> wrote in news:0fd0771f-d87b-448a-85aa-
> 2e472abaf35b@t11g2000yqg.googlegroups.com:
>
> <snip>
>
>> Has anyone else experienced this problem? Anything I am missing here?
>>
>> Thanks
>> Terry in Winnipeg
>>
>
>
>
> -35C is -31F. That is awfully cold. Still, if you can't get decent heat
> after 15 miles of driving, I think you have a defective thermostat.
>
> Rather than fooling with this yourself, your dealer should replace the
> thermostat under the warranty that you are still very much within.
>
> You paid for that warranty as part of the purchase price of your car, so
> use it.
>
> If the dealer gives you the runaround, call Honda Canada directly. The
> phone number is in your warranty manual. In case you can't locate that, the
> number is 1-888-946-6329. Their hours are 8 to 7:30 eastern time.
>
> My mama grew up in Winnipeg (West Kildonan), and she has told me horror
> stories of the cold out there!
> My wife's mother was born in Alberta. It's even COLDER there. She was an
> elementary school teacher (retired last year). Yard duty at 40-below is no
> fun at all. That's right, the kids were in the schoolyard through recess
> even at 40-below.
>
Hi,
Manitoba winter beats Alberta winter for sure. We have Chinook. Today it
is +5C and +10C tomorrow. I think that Civic has wrong or bad thermostat.
Speaking from Cagary Alberta.

Re: 08 civic warm up issues
 

Tegger wrote:
> loewent <loewent@gmail.com> wrote in news:0fd0771f-d87b-448a-85aa-
> 2e472abaf35b@t11g2000yqg.googlegroups.com:
>
> <snip>
>
>> Has anyone else experienced this problem? Anything I am missing here?
>>
>> Thanks
>> Terry in Winnipeg
>>

Wow, what a coincidence. I've had my 06 Civic into my dealership three
times in the past month for the same problem, and they've looked it over
twice, and concluded that everything is dandy. They even kept it
overnight so it would be thoroughly cold. They claim it passes every
test they can think of, but are reluctant to 'throw parts at the problem'.

The car is extremely slow to warm up, rarely reaches its normal temp
(according to the gauge) and, when I put it in park to let it idle for a
few minutes, will actually cool significantly (usually 2 'segments',
down to just a few segments on the gauge). It loses ground by idling in
Park. I fail to see how it passes their 'tests', since it consistently
fails in actual use.

We're now in the coldest weather in 13 years here in the Chicago
suburbs. On the way to work, the gauge never got beyond 4 segments, and
I barely get enough heat to keep the windows defrosted. In park for two
minutes, it cooled back down to two segments. (These show one segment
no matter what...). On the way home, the windshield never did fully
defrost. I get slight warmth from the dash vents when I arrive home
from a 20 minute drive with several minutes of warmup.

I've ordered an OEM thermostat and gasket online, and when it arrives,
I'll be pulling out the tools in an unheated garage to repair a fully
warrantied $20,000 Civic.

If anyone has the number for Honda US, I'd appreciate it. I'll get some
satisfaction eventually, but first I want heat and I sure as hell won't
get any results from my dealer, Honda of Joliet. 20K for a Civic with
for heat and for a warranty isn't exactly entertaining anymore.

Some day I might buy another Honda. I don't regret buying my current
one. But I sure as hell won't be buying another vehicle from this
dealer. A $20 part (retail) is too much to risk on an essential repair?

Re: 08 civic warm up issues
 

On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 19:56:22 -0800, loewent wrote:

> -35C here this morning.
>
> My daily commute is about 35kms, mostly highway. I started the car and
> allowed it to run for about 5 minutes. The block heater was plugged in,
> so no excuses for being too cold. After the brief warmup, its about
> 100ft to the highway, then highway speeds.
>
> The temp gauge never moved the whole way to the city (20kms). I finally
> got it to go to about 1/4 by running in a lower gear at higher RPM, but
> it normally runs around 1/2. And when I came to red lights in the city,
> the temp gauge would go down to 0 within a minute.
>
> Called the dealer today, and just like every other problem I have
> (touchy brakes, rattles), 'its normal operation' and he recommended I
> don't run the heater fan at full blast. Problem is, at 1/2, the heater
> barely warms up the interior of the car. However, with the heater fan
> running slower, I was able to get the car to the normal spot on the
> gauge after about 25 minutes.
>
> We got this 2008 civic LX in January 2007. Never noticed any problems
> last winter, but it really was never this cold either. The car has
> 32000kms on it, 2 oil changes.
>
> I have checked the coolant level in the radiator and the resevoir, and
> both are perfectly fine. Entertained damming the radiator with
> cardboard, however, the outside surface of the rad is not accessible
> without removing one of the plastic shrouds on the bumper. At these
> temps, its not enjoyable to be outside working on this, and besides, the
> plastic clips would just break due to the temperature (already broke 1).
>
> I have seen some Civic hybrid forums talk about using pipe insulation
> from Home Depot to block the openings in the grill. I may try that yet,
> but I just have this feeling that something is wrong. I have owned many
> Hondas, and have never had a problem with the vehicle reaching operating
> temperature.
>
> Has anyone else experienced this problem? Anything I am missing here?
>
> Thanks
> Terry in Winnipeg

iirc, there's a recall on certain civic thermostats. replace, and in your
case, under warranty.

Re: 08 civic warm up issues
 

In article <gvRbl.18527$ZP4.10891@nlpi067.nbdc.sbc.com>,
Robert Barr <not@for.harvest> wrote:

> I've ordered an OEM thermostat and gasket online, and when it arrives,
> I'll be pulling out the tools in an unheated garage to repair a fully
> warrantied $20,000 Civic.

You'd be better off to call Honda and open a case:

http://www.odyclub.com/customer.html

This isn't rocket science. Something is wrong with your car, and the
authorized warranty repair center says there isn't and that they won't
"throw parts at it"--i.e., they won't toss a thermostat at it to watch
what happens, even though that's the issue.

American Honda will happily help out.

Re: 08 civic warm up issues
 

"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in news:elmop-
8243F6.08225816012009@mara100-84.onlink.net:

> In article <gvRbl.18527$ZP4.10891@nlpi067.nbdc.sbc.com>,
> Robert Barr <not@for.harvest> wrote:
>
>> I've ordered an OEM thermostat and gasket online, and when it arrives,
>> I'll be pulling out the tools in an unheated garage to repair a fully
>> warrantied $20,000 Civic.
>
> You'd be better off to call Honda and open a case:
>
> http://www.odyclub.com/customer.html
>
> This isn't rocket science. Something is wrong with your car, and the
> authorized warranty repair center says there isn't and that they won't
> "throw parts at it"--i.e., they won't toss a thermostat at it to watch
> what happens, even though that's the issue.
>
> American Honda will happily help out.
>



He's in Canada. He needs to deal with Honda Canada, which is a separate
company from American Honda. I've already told him this, plus reminded him
that his car's under warranty.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: 08 civic warm up issues
 

>>
>
>
>
> He's in Canada. He needs to deal with Honda Canada, which is a separate
> company from American Honda. I've already told him this, plus reminded him
> that his car's under warranty.
>
>

Uhh, actually that was the original poster who's from Canada. I'm from
the Chicago area. Thanks though.

This morning, at -18 F when I left, I had no heat. I got two, then
three segments on the gauge. While waiting at a light I lost one and it
dropped to two. At -23 when I arrived at work about 20 minutes later,
the gauge had dropped back to a single element, which is what it shows
before the car is even started.

I had to keep a window partly down because my breath was fogging the
window and I had no defrost.

I called them today and they said they'd need to 'inspect the problem',
which they've done twice now. They said to bring it in. I asked what
they planned to do differently. No reply, but the guy mentioned that
'it might be weather related'.

Now, I'm sure I've heard a more obtuse comment in recent years, but from
my viewpoint here, that pretty much takes the cake. He wound up hanging
up on me.

If anyone has the # for American Honda, please post it.

Thanks.

Re: 08 civic warm up issues
 

Robert Barr <not@for.harvest> wrote in
news:Ld8cl.13361$yr3.9161@nlpi068.nbdc.sbc.com:

>
>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> He's in Canada. He needs to deal with Honda Canada, which is a
>> separate company from American Honda. I've already told him this,
>> plus reminded him that his car's under warranty.
>>
>>
>
> Uhh, actually that was the original poster who's from Canada. I'm
> from the Chicago area. Thanks though.



Sorry. Mistaken identity.


>
> This morning, at -18 F when I left, I had no heat. I got two, then
> three segments on the gauge. While waiting at a light I lost one and
> it dropped to two. At -23 when I arrived at work about 20 minutes
> later, the gauge had dropped back to a single element, which is what
> it shows before the car is even started.



Man, and I thought we had it bad with the thermometer hovering around
zero F.

Even with all that, the engine ought to eventually reach normal
temperature in 15-20 minutes or so if the engine speed is kept
substantially above idle (as when you're driving), longer if you just
let it idle. But it WILL eventually warm up completely no matter what.
Provided the thermostat is working properly, that is.



>
> I had to keep a window partly down because my breath was fogging the
> window and I had no defrost.
>
> I called them today and they said they'd need to 'inspect the
> problem', which they've done twice now. They said to bring it in. I
> asked what they planned to do differently. No reply, but the guy
> mentioned that 'it might be weather related'.
>
> Now, I'm sure I've heard a more obtuse comment in recent years, but
> from my viewpoint here, that pretty much takes the cake. He wound up
> hanging up on me.



I don't see why this is so hard.

If proper combustion is occurring, it is frankly impossible
for the engine NOT to reach operating temperature if the thermostat
is working properly.

Combustion chamber temperatures hover around 2,000F. That heat has
to go /somewhere/. If the thermostat does not keep the heat
corralled inside the block until full op temp has been reached,
it will go out the rad.


>
> If anyone has the # for American Honda, please post
> it.



1-800-999-1009

http://automobiles.honda.com/informa...relations.aspx



--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: 08 civic warm up issues
 

>
>
> 1-800-999-1009
>
> http://automobiles.honda.com/informa...relations.aspx
>
>
>

Thanks. I took your & Elmo's advice & opened a complaint.

The diagnosis is obvious to everyone except the service managers;
there's only one possible cause that is 100% consistent with the symptoms.

I think the biggest problem is my choice of dealers; at least I have a
choice, though. I sympathize with folks in rural / distant areas where
there's only one dealer.

Re: 08 civic warm up issues
 

Robert Barr <not@for.harvest> wrote in
news:asacl.228$Lr6.86@flpi143.ffdc.sbc.com:

>
>
>>
>>
>> 1-800-999-1009
>>
>> http://automobiles.honda.com/informa...relations.aspx
>>
>>
>>
>
> Thanks. I took your & Elmo's advice & opened a complaint.
>
> The diagnosis is obvious to everyone except the service managers;
> there's only one possible cause that is 100% consistent with the
> symptoms.
>
> I think the biggest problem is my choice of dealers; at least I have a
> choice, though. I sympathize with folks in rural / distant areas
> where there's only one dealer.
>



Consider yourself lucky.

I correspond with a guy in Brunei (next to Malaysia). Apparently the Honda
franchisee there has only a single dealership for all of Brunei. Two
mechanics. Lots of waiting.



--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: 08 civic warm up issues
 

"Robert Barr" <not@for.harvest> wrote in message
news:asacl.228$Lr6.86@flpi143.ffdc.sbc.com...
>
>
>>
>>
>> 1-800-999-1009
>>
>> http://automobiles.honda.com/informa...relations.aspx
>>
>>
>>
>
> Thanks. I took your & Elmo's advice & opened a complaint.
>
> The diagnosis is obvious to everyone except the service managers; there's
> only one possible cause that is 100% consistent with the symptoms.
>
> I think the biggest problem is my choice of dealers; at least I have a
> choice, though. I sympathize with folks in rural / distant areas where
> there's only one dealer.

Yeah, you're in the Chicago area. The easiest thing to do first is try
another dealer. Doesn't excuse yours, but it might get you fixed faster.
You can continue to complain anyway.


>

Re: 08 civic warm up issues
 

On Jan 16, 6:13 pm, Tegger <inva...@invalid.inv> wrote:
> Robert Barr <n...@for.harvest> wrote innews:Ld8cl.13361$yr3.9161@nlpi068.nbdc.sbc.com:
>
>
>
> >> He's in Canada. He needs to deal with Honda Canada, which is a
> >> separate company from American Honda. I've already told him this,
> >> plus reminded him that his car's under warranty.
>
> > Uhh, actually that was the original poster who's from Canada. I'm
> > from the Chicago area. Thanks though.
>
> Sorry. Mistaken identity.
>
>
>
> > This morning, at -18 F when I left, I had no heat. I got two, then
> > three segments on the gauge. While waiting at a light I lost one and
> > it dropped to two. At -23 when I arrived at work about 20 minutes
> > later, the gauge had dropped back to a single element, which is what
> > it shows before the car is even started.
>
> Man, and I thought we had it bad with the thermometer hovering around
> zero F.
>
> Even with all that, the engine ought to eventually reach normal
> temperature in 15-20 minutes or so if the engine speed is kept
> substantially above idle (as when you're driving), longer if you just
> let it idle. But it WILL eventually warm up completely no matter what.
> Provided the thermostat is working properly, that is.
>
>
>
> > I had to keep a window partly down because my breath was fogging the
> > window and I had no defrost.
>
> > I called them today and they said they'd need to 'inspect the
> > problem', which they've done twice now. They said to bring it in. I
> > asked what they planned to do differently. No reply, but the guy
> > mentioned that 'it might be weather related'.
>
> > Now, I'm sure I've heard a more obtuse comment in recent years, but
> > from my viewpoint here, that pretty much takes the cake. He wound up
> > hanging up on me.
>
> I don't see why this is so hard.
>
> If proper combustion is occurring, it is frankly impossible
> for the engine NOT to reach operating temperature if the thermostat
> is working properly.
>
> Combustion chamber temperatures hover around 2,000F. That heat has
> to go /somewhere/. If the thermostat does not keep the heat
> corralled inside the block until full op temp has been reached,
> it will go out the rad.
>
>
>
> > If anyone has the # for American Honda, please post
> > it.
>
> 1-800-999-1009
>
> http://automobiles.honda.com/informa...relations.aspx
>
> --
> Tegger
>
> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQwww.tegger.com/hondafaq/

i've had similar problems with my 92 civic. i'm on my third or fourth
thermostat at this point, lost track. with two different engines.

ironic because the radiator that came with the car was in some way
defective, the car had a tendency to get overly warm from day 1; i
stupidly assumed it was normal because the radiator is so small, and
just took it easy on hot days. learned differently when the radiator
finally clogged and i replaced it. before the head gasket gave out
from all the overheating. which was the excuse i needed to get the
b16. which has "underheated" ever since, just like the original d16
did after the new radiator got put in.

anyway it reminds me of my childhood when you had to cover the car
radiator with cardboard in the winter. and here i thought those days
were gone.

Re: 08 civic warm up issues
 

I just change my thermostat and I didn't see much improvement when the
weather is close to -30C. Anything to look for ?
<manreal1@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:f18058c9-6a07-4443-9729-47f7b26c793e@z6g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 14, 9:56 pm, loewent <loew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> -35C here this morning.
>
> My daily commute is about 35kms, mostly highway. I started the car
> and allowed it to run for about 5 minutes. The block heater was
> plugged in, so no excuses for being too cold. After the brief warmup,
> its about 100ft to the highway, then highway speeds.
>
> The temp gauge never moved the whole way to the city (20kms). I
> finally got it to go to about 1/4 by running in a lower gear at higher
> RPM, but it normally runs around 1/2. And when I came to red lights
> in the city, the temp gauge would go down to 0 within a minute.
>
> Called the dealer today, and just like every other problem I have
> (touchy brakes, rattles), 'its normal operation' and he recommended I
> don't run the heater fan at full blast. Problem is, at 1/2, the
> heater barely warms up the interior of the car. However, with the
> heater fan running slower, I was able to get the car to the normal
> spot on the gauge after about 25 minutes.
>
> We got this 2008 civic LX in January 2007. Never noticed any problems
> last winter, but it really was never this cold either. The car has
> 32000kms on it, 2 oil changes.
>
> I have checked the coolant level in the radiator and the resevoir, and
> both are perfectly fine. Entertained damming the radiator with
> cardboard, however, the outside surface of the rad is not accessible
> without removing one of the plastic shrouds on the bumper. At these
> temps, its not enjoyable to be outside working on this, and besides,
> the plastic clips would just break due to the temperature (already
> broke 1).
>
> I have seen some Civic hybrid forums talk about using pipe insulation
> from Home Depot to block the openings in the grill. I may try that
> yet, but I just have this feeling that something is wrong. I have
> owned many Hondas, and have never had a problem with the vehicle
> reaching operating temperature.
>
> Has anyone else experienced this problem? Anything I am missing here?
>
> Thanks
> Terry in Winnipeg

Hi live in Winnipeg too and my 2001 honda civic is doing exactly the
same thing. Please let me know if you find out what is causing this
to happen.

Re: 08 civic warm up issues
 

On 2009-01-30, Markov <markov@someone.com> wrote:
> I just change my thermostat and I didn't see much improvement when the
> weather is close to -30C. Anything to look for ?

Warmer climate?

--
Joe - Linux User #449481/Ubuntu User #19733
joe at hits - buffalo dot com
"Hate is baggage, life is too short to go around pissed off all the
time..." - Danny, American History X

Re: 08 civic warm up issues
 

Bwahahahahahhah!!! hhahahah!!!
Ok, sorry, that's all.


On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 23:13:29 +0000 (UTC), Tegger <invalid@invalid.inv>
wrote:

>Man, and I thought we had it bad with the thermometer hovering around
>zero F.

Re: 08 civic warm up issues
 

"Markov" <markov@someone.com> wrote in message
news:0pwgl.38571$1W7.7637@newsfe11.iad...
>I just change my thermostat and I didn't see much improvement when the
>weather is close to -30C. Anything to look for ?

What is the rating on your thermostat? That is - at what water temp will it
open? Common ratings are 185/195/205 degrees F (don't know what that would
be in Celsius). If you have the 185, the coolant will not provide enough
heat to warm the car at those temps. I have a 205 degree F in my 86 Civic
and it works well at temps ranging from 90F in the summer to -70F in the
winter....Just a thought>

DaveD

Re: 08 civic warm up issues
 

On Feb 1, 5:00 am, "Dave D" <dtdod...@acsalaska.net> wrote:
> "Markov" <mar...@someone.com> wrote in message
>
> news:0pwgl.38571$1W7.7637@newsfe11.iad...
>
> >I just change my thermostat and I didn't see much improvement when the
> >weather is close to -30C. Anything to look for ?
>
> What is the rating on your thermostat? That is - at what water temp will it
> open? Common ratings are 185/195/205 degrees F (don't know what that would
> be in Celsius). If you have the 185, the coolant will not provide enough
> heat to warm the car at those temps. I have a 205 degree F in my 86 Civic
> and it works well at temps ranging from 90F in the summer to -70F in the
> winter....Just a thought>
>
> DaveD

-70F? Where are you, Alaska?

Re: 08 civic warm up issues
 

"e.meyer" <epmeyer50@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:7f2013f9-fb16-484c-a7fa-6ba7bc052092@t26g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 1, 5:00 am, "Dave D" <dtdod...@acsalaska.net> wrote:
> "Markov" <mar...@someone.com> wrote in message
>
> news:0pwgl.38571$1W7.7637@newsfe11.iad...
>
> >I just change my thermostat and I didn't see much improvement when the
> >weather is close to -30C. Anything to look for ?
>
> What is the rating on your thermostat? That is - at what water temp will
> it
> open? Common ratings are 185/195/205 degrees F (don't know what that would
> be in Celsius). If you have the 185, the coolant will not provide enough
> heat to warm the car at those temps. I have a 205 degree F in my 86 Civic
> and it works well at temps ranging from 90F in the summer to -70F in the
> winter....Just a thought>
>
> DaveD

-70F? Where are you, Alaska?

On the nose. North Pole Alaska to be precise.

DaveD

Re: 08 civic warm up issues
 

On Jan 14, 7:56 pm, loewent <loew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> -35C here this morning.
>
> My daily commute is about 35kms, mostly highway. I started the car
> and allowed it to run for about 5 minutes. The block heater was
> plugged in, so no excuses for being too cold. After the brief warmup,
> its about 100ft to the highway, then highway speeds.
>
> The temp gauge never moved the whole way to the city (20kms). I
> finally got it to go to about 1/4 by running in a lower gear at higher
> RPM, but it normally runs around 1/2. And when I came to red lights
> in the city, the temp gauge would go down to 0 within a minute.
>
> Called the dealer today, and just like every other problem I have
> (touchy brakes, rattles), 'its normal operation' and he recommended I
> don't run the heater fan at full blast. Problem is, at 1/2, the
> heater barely warms up the interior of the car. However, with the
> heater fan running slower, I was able to get the car to the normal
> spot on the gauge after about 25 minutes.
>
> We got this 2008civicLX in January2007. Never noticed anyproblems
> last winter, but it really was never this cold either. The car has
> 32000kms on it, 2 oil changes.
>
> I have checked the coolant level in the radiator and the resevoir, and
> both are perfectly fine. Entertained damming the radiator with
> cardboard, however, the outside surface of the rad is not accessible
> without removing one of the plastic shrouds on the bumper. At these
> temps, its not enjoyable to be outside working on this, and besides,
> the plastic clips would just break due to the temperature (already
> broke 1).
>
> I have seen someCivichybrid forums talk about using pipe insulation
> from Home Depot to block the openings in the grill. I may try that
> yet, but I just have this feeling that something is wrong. I have
> owned many Hondas, and have never had a problem with the vehicle
> reaching operating temperature.
>
> Has anyone else experienced this problem? Anything I am missing here?
>
> Thanks
> Terry in Winnipeg

Yes,

I'm having the exact same problem. I've taken my car in four times
this fall and still have problems reaching temperature. I'm 95% sure
the problem is the thermostat. Every time I ask them to check the
thermostat, and they haven't removed the thermostat once (which is the
recommended method in the dealer service manual). My old Acura Integra
(also an aluminum 1.8L) had the same problem once, I replaced the
thermostat and she was fine.

My problem is with the dealer here in Whitehorse- they keep telling me
not to run the heater at full, or that 'these little engines don't
produce as much heat'. It doesn't make sense. If the engine is at
temperature, the thermostat should open and close to keep it at
temperature. I'm paying them to replace the thermostat at my cost,
and save the parts for me. (If I get an open thermostat back I'll be
getting unglued). The thermostat should be in this week, I'll let you
know how it goes.

I'm sure you've noticed your gas consumption increase as well- I'm
getting about 250km to a tank right now, just slightly better than my
friends Land Rover. You may have also noticed the temperature drop on
long downhill roads... I can usually drop the temp from 1/2 to 1/6 on
a good hill.

FYI: I've installed some cardboard in front of the bumper, at least
now it reaches temperature when I'm on the highway... I'll keep you
posted.

Corry

Re: 08 civic warm up issues
 

On Feb 3, 9:25 am, corrymar...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Jan 14, 7:56 pm, loewent <loew...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > -35C here this morning.
>
> > My daily commute is about 35kms, mostly highway. I started the car
> > and allowed it to run for about 5 minutes. The block heater was
> > plugged in, so no excuses for being too cold. After the brief warmup,
> > its about 100ft to the highway, then highway speeds.
>
> > The temp gauge never moved the whole way to the city (20kms). I
> > finally got it to go to about 1/4 by running in a lower gear at higher
> > RPM, but it normally runs around 1/2. And when I came to red lights
> > in the city, the temp gauge would go down to 0 within a minute.
>
> > Called the dealer today, and just like every other problem I have
> > (touchy brakes, rattles), 'its normal operation' and he recommended I
> > don't run the heater fan at full blast. Problem is, at 1/2, the
> > heater barely warms up the interior of the car. However, with the
> > heater fan running slower, I was able to get the car to the normal
> > spot on the gauge after about 25 minutes.
>
> > We got this 2008civicLX in January2007. Never noticed anyproblems
> > last winter, but it really was never this cold either. The car has
> > 32000kms on it, 2 oil changes.
>
> > I have checked the coolant level in the radiator and the resevoir, and
> > both are perfectly fine. Entertained damming the radiator with
> > cardboard, however, the outside surface of the rad is not accessible
> > without removing one of the plastic shrouds on the bumper. At these
> > temps, its not enjoyable to be outside working on this, and besides,
> > the plastic clips would just break due to the temperature (already
> > broke 1).
>
> > I have seen someCivichybrid forums talk about using pipe insulation
> > from Home Depot to block the openings in the grill. I may try that
> > yet, but I just have this feeling that something is wrong. I have
> > owned many Hondas, and have never had a problem with the vehicle
> > reaching operating temperature.
>
> > Has anyone else experienced this problem? Anything I am missing here?
>
> > Thanks
> > Terry in Winnipeg
>
> Yes,
>
> I'm having the exact same problem. I've taken my car in four times
> this fall and still haveproblemsreaching temperature. I'm 95% sure
> the problem is thethermostat. Every time I ask them to check thethermostat, and they haven't removed thethermostatonce (which is the
> recommended method in the dealer service manual). My old Acura Integra
> (also an aluminum 1.8L) had the same problem once, I replaced thethermostatand she was fine.
>
> My problem is with the dealer here in Whitehorse- they keep telling me
> not to run the heater at full, or that 'these little engines don't
> produce as much heat'. It doesn't make sense. If the engine is at
> temperature, thethermostatshould open and close to keep it at
> temperature. I'm paying them to replace thethermostatat my cost,
> and save the parts for me. (If I get an openthermostatback I'll be
> getting unglued). Thethermostatshould be in this week, I'll let you
> know how it goes.
>
> I'm sure you've noticed your gas consumption increase as well- I'm
> getting about 250km to a tank right now, just slightly better than my
> friends Land Rover. You may have also noticed the temperature drop on
> long downhill roads... I can usually drop the temp from 1/2 to 1/6 on
> a good hill.
>
> FYI: I've installed some cardboard in front of the bumper, at least
> now it reaches temperature when I'm on the highway... I'll keep you
> posted.
>
> Corry

Forgot to mention that I drive an 07 Civic. This is its first cold
winter, so I'm only noticing the problem now.

C

Re: 08 civic warm up issues
 

(corrymartin@gmail.com) writes:
> On Jan 14, 7:56=A0pm, loewent <loew...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> -35C here this morning.
>>
>> My daily commute is about 35kms, mostly highway. =A0I started the car
>> and allowed it to run for about 5 minutes. =A0The block heater was
>> plugged in, so no excuses for being too cold. =A0After the brief warmup,
>> its about 100ft to the highway, then highway speeds.
>>
>> The temp gauge never moved the whole way to the city (20kms). =A0I
>> finally got it to go to about 1/4 by running in a lower gear at higher
>> RPM, but it normally runs around 1/2. =A0And when I came to red lights
>> in the city, the temp gauge would go down to 0 within a minute.
>>
>> Called the dealer today, and just like every other problem I have
>> (touchy brakes, rattles), 'its normal operation' and he recommended I
>> don't run the heater fan at full blast. =A0Problem is, at 1/2, the
>> heater barely warms up the interior of the car. =A0However, with the
>> heater fan running slower, I was able to get the car to the normal
>> spot on the gauge after about 25 minutes.
>>
>> We got this 2008civicLX in January2007. =A0Never noticed anyproblems
>> last winter, but it really was never this cold either. =A0The car has
>> 32000kms on it, 2 oil changes.
>>
>> I have checked the coolant level in the radiator and the resevoir, and
>> both are perfectly fine. =A0Entertained damming the radiator with
>> cardboard, however, the outside surface of the rad is not accessible
>> without removing one of the plastic shrouds on the bumper. =A0At these
>> temps, its not enjoyable to be outside working on this, and besides,
>> the plastic clips would just break due to the temperature (already
>> broke 1).
>>
>> I have seen someCivichybrid forums talk about using pipe insulation
>> from Home Depot to block the openings in the grill. =A0I may try that
>> yet, but I just have this feeling that something is wrong. =A0I have
>> owned many Hondas, and have never had a problem with the vehicle
>> reaching operating temperature.
>>
>> Has anyone else experienced this problem? =A0Anything I am missing here?
>>
>> Thanks
>> Terry in Winnipeg
>
> Yes,
>
> I'm having the exact same problem. I've taken my car in four times
> this fall and still have problems reaching temperature. I'm 95% sure
> the problem is the thermostat. Every time I ask them to check the
> thermostat, and they haven't removed the thermostat once (which is the
> recommended method in the dealer service manual). My old Acura Integra
> (also an aluminum 1.8L) had the same problem once, I replaced the
> thermostat and she was fine.
>
> My problem is with the dealer here in Whitehorse- they keep telling me
> not to run the heater at full, or that 'these little engines don't
> produce as much heat'. It doesn't make sense. If the engine is at
> temperature, the thermostat should open and close to keep it at
> temperature. I'm paying them to replace the thermostat at my cost,
> and save the parts for me. (If I get an open thermostat back I'll be
> getting unglued). The thermostat should be in this week, I'll let you
> know how it goes.
>
> I'm sure you've noticed your gas consumption increase as well- I'm
> getting about 250km to a tank right now, just slightly better than my
> friends Land Rover. You may have also noticed the temperature drop on
> long downhill roads... I can usually drop the temp from 1/2 to 1/6 on
> a good hill.
>
> FYI: I've installed some cardboard in front of the bumper, at least
> now it reaches temperature when I'm on the highway... I'll keep you
> posted.
>
> Corry
>



Is your car under warranty? Specifically the emissions warranty.

If your engine is not warming up, it is polluting the air and Honda Canada
is breaking the Canadian Federal emissions laws. Honda Canada is required
to meet Canadian Federal specs for emissions. They are not allowed to sell
automobiles in Canada that exceed the specified emissions. An engine that
does not warm up to operating temperature, within a certain time frame, will
not meet the Fed specs. Raise a stink with the dealer, Honda Canada, and
Transport Canada. You paid lots of money to have Honda build a car that
is supposed to meet the Canadian emissions specs.

Look at you warranty booklet, read it carefully. Contact Transport Canada.
Do you live in a province that requires emission tests for licence renewal
(i.e. Ontario, British Columbia)? You may want to tell them Honda has
possibly allowed polluting automobiles to operate on their roads.

3Gee Canadian Hondas (1986 to 1989 Accords) list an optional (hotter)
thermostat (with operation specs [temps etc.]) in the Honda Canadian
workshop manual.

Re: 08 civic warm up issues
 

cf005@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (M.A. Stewart) wrote in
news:gmd9ap$ovn$1@theodyn.ncf.ca:

> (corrymartin@gmail.com) writes:

>>
>> FYI: I've installed some cardboard in front of the bumper, at least
>> now it reaches temperature when I'm on the highway... I'll keep you
>> posted.
>>
>> Corry
>>
>
>
>
> Is your car under warranty? Specifically the emissions warranty.
>
> If your engine is not warming up, it is polluting the air and Honda
> Canada is breaking the Canadian Federal emissions laws. Honda Canada
> is required to meet Canadian Federal specs for emissions. They are not
> allowed to sell automobiles in Canada that exceed the specified
> emissions. An engine that does not warm up to operating temperature,
> within a certain time frame, will not meet the Fed specs.



It will also turn on the Check Engine light if emissions exceed federal
limits by a significant amount.

You're forgetting that the primary components of the emissions system are
the oxygen sensors and the cat. If either is not working properly, the
Check Engine light will illuminate. If both ARE working properly, then
emissions are within specified limits regardless of coolant temperature.

What totally baffles me is that nobody seems to want to try the very simple
expedient of checking the coolant outlet at the head with an infrared
thermometer. All dealers have got to have one of those. *I* have one. It
was all of $75. You should see about 205F at the "sweet spot" when fully
warm. If it's lower than that with no accompanying Check Engine light, then
the thermostat is bad.

I'm convinced Honda has simply had a run of bum thermostats, hardly an
issue worth snitching to the cops for. Bet there's a TSB out on this by
spring.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: 08 civic warm up issues
 

> My problem is with the dealer here in Whitehorse- they keep telling me
> not to run the heater at full, or that 'these little engines don't
> produce as much heat'. It doesn't make sense. If the engine is at
> temperature, the thermostat should open and close to keep it at
> temperature. I'm paying them to replace the thermostat at my cost,
> and save the parts for me. (If I get an open thermostat back I'll be
> getting unglued). The thermostat should be in this week, I'll let you
> know how it goes.

Same BS I get from my dealer, they claim the heater core, which takes
water before the thermostat, is actually capable of cooling the engine
in this weather. Doesn't make any sense, sounds like a routing or
valving issue to me. No way should coolant flow be that high through
a heater core.


> FYI: I've installed some cardboard in front of the bumper, at least
> now it reaches temperature when I'm on the highway... I'll keep you
> posted.

I've used some 1/2" pipe insulation in the gaps of the grill. See
pics at URL below, mine is the same. Definitely helps it get up to
temperature on the hwy. From what I understand, this problem is even
worse on hybrid civics.

http://www.greenhybrid.com/discuss/f...n-grill-16922/

t

Re: 08 civic warm up issues
 

Tegger (invalid@invalid.inv) writes:
> cf005@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (M.A. Stewart) wrote in
> news:gmd9ap$ovn$1@theodyn.ncf.ca:
>
>> (corrymartin@gmail.com) writes:
>
>>>
>>> FYI: I've installed some cardboard in front of the bumper, at least
>>> now it reaches temperature when I'm on the highway... I'll keep you
>>> posted.
>>>
>>> Corry
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Is your car under warranty? Specifically the emissions warranty.
>>
>> If your engine is not warming up, it is polluting the air and Honda
>> Canada is breaking the Canadian Federal emissions laws. Honda Canada
>> is required to meet Canadian Federal specs for emissions. They are not
>> allowed to sell automobiles in Canada that exceed the specified
>> emissions. An engine that does not warm up to operating temperature,
>> within a certain time frame, will not meet the Fed specs.
>
>
>
> It will also turn on the Check Engine light if emissions exceed federal
> limits by a significant amount.
>
> You're forgetting that the primary components of the emissions system are
> the oxygen sensors and the cat. If either is not working properly, the
> Check Engine light will illuminate. If both ARE working properly, then
> emissions are within specified limits regardless of coolant temperature.

Ahh... the possible loophole for the manufacturers. My understanding
(and I'm not saying it is correct) is that there is a time limit for engine
warm up, because when the cars are tested by the 'Feds' (not the
provinces or possibly the states), they 'bag' everything that exits the
exhaust. If the engine does not warm up during the test 'program' (driving
test routine), the bag, when analysed for contents, will show high readings.


>
> What totally baffles me is that nobody seems to want to try the very simple
> expedient of checking the coolant outlet at the head with an infrared
> thermometer. All dealers have got to have one of those. *I* have one. It
> was all of $75. You should see about 205F at the "sweet spot" when fully
> warm. If it's lower than that with no accompanying Check Engine light, then
> the thermostat is bad.

And the test for stats is the same as it has always been... take the stat
out... hang it in a pot of water... hang in a good thermometer... turn the
heat on... make note of the temps and action of the stat... consult the
factory workshop manuals for the specific details of how the action and
temps are supposed to relate.


>
> I'm convinced Honda has simply had a run of bum thermostats, hardly an
> issue worth snitching to the cops for. Bet there's a TSB out on this by
> spring.
>

At 30 to 50 below in the Yukon, spring is a LONG time away! At 30 to 50
below ya want some fire under your ass. If a threat of snitching gets that
fire sooner, well then, what the hell! :-) :-)

>
> --
> Tegger
>
> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: 08 civic warm up issues
 

cf005@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (M.A. Stewart) wrote in
news:gmfr8l$fr8$1@theodyn.ncf.ca:

> Tegger (invalid@invalid.inv) writes:

>>
>>
>> It will also turn on the Check Engine light if emissions exceed
>> federal limits by a significant amount.
>>
>> You're forgetting that the primary components of the emissions system
>> are the oxygen sensors and the cat. If either is not working
>> properly, the Check Engine light will illuminate. If both ARE working
>> properly, then emissions are within specified limits regardless of
>> coolant temperature.
>
> Ahh... the possible loophole for the manufacturers. My understanding
> (and I'm not saying it is correct) is that there is a time limit for
> engine warm up, because when the cars are tested by the 'Feds' (not
> the provinces or possibly the states), they 'bag' everything that
> exits the exhaust. If the engine does not warm up during the test
> 'program' (driving test routine), the bag, when analysed for contents,
> will show high readings.



Oxygen sensors/AF sensors are active after about 30 seconds from a cold
start. Their internal heaters are the reason why. The 2008 cat is
functional after about the same length of time. Its cheek-to-jowl proximity
to the exhaust ports is why.

It is true that insufficiently warmed-up engines of /any/ year will exhibit
high HC readings (but stunningly low NO numbers!) compared to a fully
warmed-up one, but you MUST realize how stupidly low ALL the readings are
these days. CO, for one, is now non-existent to Ontario's DriveClean, since
its equipment "only" goes to two decimal places. You'll see "0.00%" in that
slot. An uncontrolled engine puts out roughly 4%-10% CO.

A cold engine of 2008 vintage puts out less HC/CO/NO than a fully-warm
engine did in 1991. After the first half-minute, anyway.

I've been told that, in terms of measured emissions, auto exhaust is
CLEANER than the ambient air in large cities, and has been so since 1986.

The US federal EPA says that ambient air is now 57% cleaner in ABSOLUTE
terms than it was in 1970, in spite of a 157% increase in vehicular traffic
from then to now.

If you want to get all huffy and go squealing to the feds that the Big Bad
Automaker is Destroying the Environment, you should have a few facts at
hand before you make a total fool of yourself.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: 08 civic warm up issues
 

Tegger (invalid@invalid.inv) writes:
> cf005@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (M.A. Stewart) wrote in
> news:gmfr8l$fr8$1@theodyn.ncf.ca:
>
>> Tegger (invalid@invalid.inv) writes:
>

[snipped... because I've been snipped]


>
> If you want to get all huffy and go squealing to the feds that the Big Bad
> Automaker is Destroying the Environment, you should have a few facts at
> hand before you make a total fool of yourself.
>
>

Huffy? I'm not getting huffy.

I implied to him to phone Transport Canada for the _FACTS_. He's
freezin' his in' arse off. Why doesn't the dealer fix his 2008 car?
Are they fools?

Here's a fact... if the engine doesn't warm up... he won't get enough
heat out of the heater, and therefore his defroster won't work properly.

This is illegal in Ontario... it's in the Highway Traffic Act (Ontario).

A 2008 car that won't pass an Ontario Safety Check, because of a bum
defroster, this is almost unheard of.

Possibly another lever for him to use on the 'fools'.

Keep up the good work on your web site.

Re: 08 civic warm up issues
 

cf005@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (M.A. Stewart) wrote in
news:gmif4h$8hk$1@theodyn.ncf.ca:

> Tegger (invalid@invalid.inv) writes:
>> cf005@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (M.A. Stewart) wrote in
>> news:gmfr8l$fr8$1@theodyn.ncf.ca:
>>
>>> Tegger (invalid@invalid.inv) writes:
>>
>
> [snipped... because I've been snipped]
>
>
>>
>> If you want to get all huffy and go squealing to the feds that the
>> Big Bad Automaker is Destroying the Environment, you should have a
>> few facts at hand before you make a total fool of yourself.
>>
>>
>
> Huffy? I'm not getting huffy.
>
> I implied to him to phone Transport Canada for the _FACTS_. He's
> freezin' his in' arse off. Why doesn't the dealer fix his 2008
> car? Are they fools?



Is HE a fool? You're supposed to be responsible for yourself in this
life. You need to do your OWN ass-kicking. If the dealer won't help (the
infrared thermometer is the FIRST step), you call Honda Canada and get a
zone rep involved. You (politely but insistently) kick ass and don't
take "no" for an answer. Honda Canada WILL help if the rep can be
convinced that there's a problem. Honda is HIGHLY protective of its
reputation. Intelligent and reasoned arguments ARE listened to, believe
it or not, even by Big Bad Environment-Destroying Automakers.

What is NOT listened to is trivial whining from unwashed proles who
refuse to back up their gripes with solid evidence that there is in fact
a problem that is not being dealt with with by the franchised dealer.
Retail establishments of all kinds get a LOT of disaffected weirdos with
imagined problems, so it's not surprising that dealers seem to be
treating these poor-heat reports skeptically. If there IS in fact
something wrong, there will eventually be issued a TSB (one of at least
a hundred issued each year) detailing the problem and its fix.

What is it with people today? Nobody wants to do some legwork and just
get stuff fixed. Mistakes and screwups happen. Bad customer service
happens too, just because people are human and are highly defective.
Instead of dealing with reality the real way, everybody now wants to
immediately run to Big Brother Government and get them to whack some
rich guy real hard.

You want to know what's wrong with society today? Look in the mirror.
You're your _own_ last line of defense, and should be, regardless of
what the government-lovers want to see happen.



>
> Here's a fact... if the engine doesn't warm up... he won't get enough
> heat out of the heater, and therefore his defroster won't work
> properly.



No kidding. Having been the victim of defective thermostats once or
twice over several decades, I know exactly what you mean.



>
> This is illegal in Ontario... it's in the Highway Traffic Act
> (Ontario).
>
> A 2008 car that won't pass an Ontario Safety Check, because of a bum
> defroster, this is almost unheard of.



Have /you, personally/ ever seen any 2008 car fail in such a manner?



>
> Possibly another lever for him to use on the 'fools'.



The very best "lever" to use on the "fools" is for informed consumers to
do this:
1) have the dealer or some other garage, or the car owner himself, warm
the car up all the way (at least a half-hour of actual driving), then
aim a $75 infrared thermometer at the upper rad hose's outlet at the
head. If the max reading is much less than 205F, then there is a
problem;
2) if there IS a problem and the dealer refuses to fix it, call Honda
Canada at 1-888-946-6329.

When I say I have NEVER seen an engine with proper combustion and a good
thermostat fail to heat up so as to exhibit 205 at the outlet, I
exaggerate not at all.



>
> Keep up the good work on your web site.
>
>



Way behind on updates due to lack of time. We've hired a couple of new
guys, so I hopefully will have more time in the future.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: 08 civic warm up issues
 

Robert Barr wrote:
>
>
>>
>>
>> 1-800-999-1009
>>
>> http://automobiles.honda.com/informa...relations.aspx
>>
>>
>>
>
> Thanks. I took your & Elmo's advice & opened a complaint.
>
> The diagnosis is obvious to everyone except the service managers;
> there's only one possible cause that is 100% consistent with the symptoms.
>

OK, well, American Honda was utterly useless. After 3 days they call
back with a message on my answering machine stating that they agree with
the dealership -- that there's no problem with my heater.

I ordered a thermostat and bought a gallon of Honda coolant. Before I
installed it myself (unheated garage), I tried one more Honda dealer in
the Chicago area and -- shockingly enough! -- they replaced the thermostat.

For the first time this winter, the vehicle reaches operating
temperatures before I get to work on 6 degree F mornings. No surprises
here. I'm not convinced it heats as well as it did new, but there was a
definite improvement.

Re: 08 civic warm up issues
 

Robert Barr <not@for.harvest> wrote in
news:gw7jl.16253$yr3.6706@nlpi068.nbdc.sbc.com:

>
> Robert Barr wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 1-800-999-1009
>>>
>>> http://automobiles.honda.com/informa...relations.aspx
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Thanks. I took your & Elmo's advice & opened a complaint.
>>
>> The diagnosis is obvious to everyone except the service managers;
>> there's only one possible cause that is 100% consistent with the
>> symptoms.
>>
>
> OK, well, American Honda was utterly useless. After 3 days they call
> back with a message on my answering machine stating that they agree
> with the dealership -- that there's no problem with my heater.
>
> I ordered a thermostat and bought a gallon of Honda coolant. Before I
> installed it myself (unheated garage), I tried one more Honda dealer
> in the Chicago area and -- shockingly enough! -- they replaced the
> thermostat.
>
> For the first time this winter, the vehicle reaches operating
> temperatures before I get to work on 6 degree F mornings. No
> surprises here. I'm not convinced it heats as well as it did new, but
> there was a definite improvement.
>



So I'm not just whistling in the wind?


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: 08 civic warm up issues
 

Tegger wrote:
(...)
>
> I've been told that, in terms of measured emissions, auto exhaust is
> CLEANER than the ambient air in large cities, and has been so since 1986.
>
(...)


A bit of perspective: I was in Advanced Auto mechanics in high
school, and was told the same thing by the shop teacher - that cars were
essentially cleaning urban air. The year?

1975.

Re: 08 civic warm up issues
 

On Sat, 07 Feb 2009 04:34:33 +0000, Tegger wrote:

> Robert Barr <not@for.harvest> wrote in
> news:gw7jl.16253$yr3.6706@nlpi068.nbdc.sbc.com:
>
>
>> Robert Barr wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> 1-800-999-1009
>>>>
>>>> http://automobiles.honda.com/informa...relations.aspx
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Thanks. I took your & Elmo's advice & opened a complaint.
>>>
>>> The diagnosis is obvious to everyone except the service managers;
>>> there's only one possible cause that is 100% consistent with the
>>> symptoms.
>>>
>>>
>> OK, well, American Honda was utterly useless. After 3 days they call
>> back with a message on my answering machine stating that they agree
>> with the dealership -- that there's no problem with my heater.
>>
>> I ordered a thermostat and bought a gallon of Honda coolant. Before I
>> installed it myself (unheated garage), I tried one more Honda dealer in
>> the Chicago area and -- shockingly enough! -- they replaced the
>> thermostat.
>>
>> For the first time this winter, the vehicle reaches operating
>> temperatures before I get to work on 6 degree F mornings. No surprises
>> here. I'm not convinced it heats as well as it did new, but there was
>> a definite improvement.
>>
>>
>
>
> So I'm not just whistling in the wind?

nope. i'll add one thing though - while the thermostat can indeed, and
typically will, be the problem, a below-spec coolant temp sensor can
exacerbate it. as i found recently, even with an in-spec thermostat, if
the computer is getting erroneous data indicating cold engine, it'll
inject rich mixture, and that doesn't burn as hot as stoichiometric
mixture, thus the engine takes even longer to warm than normal.

your i.r. thermometer suggestion is excellent. i would also suggest with
an obdcII and higher vehicle, matching that against the temperature the
computer thinks the coolant is. if it's below the temp measured
externally at the radiator feed, the sensor is /definitely/ out of spec.

Re: 08 civic warm up issues
 

jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in
news:YTijl.86977$y71.7494@fe07.news.easynews.com:

> On Sat, 07 Feb 2009 04:34:33 +0000, Tegger wrote:
>
>> Robert Barr <not@for.harvest> wrote in
>> news:gw7jl.16253$yr3.6706@nlpi068.nbdc.sbc.com:
>>
>>
>>> Robert Barr wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 1-800-999-1009
>>>>>
>>>>> http://automobiles.honda.com/informa...relations.aspx
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Thanks. I took your & Elmo's advice & opened a complaint.
>>>>
>>>> The diagnosis is obvious to everyone except the service managers;
>>>> there's only one possible cause that is 100% consistent with the
>>>> symptoms.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> OK, well, American Honda was utterly useless. After 3 days they
>>> call back with a message on my answering machine stating that they
>>> agree with the dealership -- that there's no problem with my heater.
>>>
>>> I ordered a thermostat and bought a gallon of Honda coolant. Before
>>> I installed it myself (unheated garage), I tried one more Honda
>>> dealer in the Chicago area and -- shockingly enough! -- they
>>> replaced the thermostat.
>>>
>>> For the first time this winter, the vehicle reaches operating
>>> temperatures before I get to work on 6 degree F mornings. No
>>> surprises here. I'm not convinced it heats as well as it did new,
>>> but there was a definite improvement.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> So I'm not just whistling in the wind?
>
> nope. i'll add one thing though - while the thermostat can indeed,
> and typically will, be the problem, a below-spec coolant temp sensor
> can exacerbate it. as i found recently, even with an in-spec
> thermostat, if the computer is getting erroneous data indicating cold
> engine, it'll inject rich mixture, and that doesn't burn as hot as
> stoichiometric mixture, thus the engine takes even longer to warm than
> normal.
>
> your i.r. thermometer suggestion is excellent. i would also suggest
> with an obdcII and higher vehicle, matching that against the
> temperature the computer thinks the coolant is. if it's below the
> temp measured externally at the radiator feed, the sensor is
> /definitely/ out of spec.
>
>

on OBD-II cars,can't you read out what the CTS is reading for temperature
thru the diagnostic port?(with the proper scan tool?)

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re: 08 civic warm up issues
 

Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in
news:Xns9BAB7F61B721Cjyanikkuanet@74.209.136.85:

> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in
> news:YTijl.86977$y71.7494@fe07.news.easynews.com:
>

>>
>> nope. i'll add one thing though - while the thermostat can indeed,
>> and typically will, be the problem, a below-spec coolant temp sensor
>> can exacerbate it. as i found recently, even with an in-spec
>> thermostat, if the computer is getting erroneous data indicating cold
>> engine, it'll inject rich mixture, and that doesn't burn as hot as
>> stoichiometric mixture, thus the engine takes even longer to warm
>> than normal.
>>
>> your i.r. thermometer suggestion is excellent. i would also suggest
>> with an obdcII and higher vehicle, matching that against the
>> temperature the computer thinks the coolant is. if it's below the
>> temp measured externally at the radiator feed, the sensor is
>> /definitely/ out of spec.
>>
>>
>
> on OBD-II cars,can't you read out what the CTS is reading for
> temperature thru the diagnostic port?(with the proper scan tool?)
>



That's what jim means. You'd then compare that to what you get from the IR
thermometer aimed at the thermostat housing, where you'd expect 194F with
the engine at full-warm.

I'm baffled why this very simple problem is being treated like one of the
world's Great Unsolved Mysteries.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: 08 civic warm up issues
 

> That's what jim means. You'd then compare that to what you get from the IR
> thermometer aimed at the thermostat housing, where you'd expect 194F with
> the engine at full-warm.
>
> I'm baffled why this very simple problem is being treated like one of the
> world's Great Unsolved Mysteries.
>
>

From my perspective, even this is tangential; I'm concerned with a
dealership's repeated inability (or refusal) to manage a simple warranty
repair, and American Honda's casual disregard of its warranty
obligations, let alone the moral and liability aspects of sending a
customer out the door with a documented safety issue unaddressed. This
should have been simple.

I'll never buy another Honda.

Re: 08 civic warm up issues
 

loewent <loewent@gmail.com> wrote in news:f1d574cc-f317-4c99-9229-
02e8e4c082de@z27g2000prd.googlegroups.com:

>
>> My problem is with the dealer here in Whitehorse- they keep telling me
>> not to run the heater at full, or that 'these little engines don't
>> produce as much heat'. It doesn't make sense. If the engine is at
>> temperature, the thermostat should open and close to keep it at
>> temperature. I'm paying them to replace the thermostat at my cost,
>> and save the parts for me. (If I get an open thermostat back I'll be
>> getting unglued). The thermostat should be in this week, I'll let you
>> know how it goes.
>
> Same BS I get from my dealer, they claim the heater core, which takes
> water before the thermostat, is actually capable of cooling the engine
> in this weather. Doesn't make any sense, sounds like a routing or
> valving issue to me. No way should coolant flow be that high through
> a heater core.
>
>
>> FYI: I've installed some cardboard in front of the bumper, at least
>> now it reaches temperature when I'm on the highway... I'll keep you
>> posted.
>
> I've used some 1/2" pipe insulation in the gaps of the grill. See
> pics at URL below, mine is the same. Definitely helps it get up to
> temperature on the hwy. From what I understand, this problem is even
> worse on hybrid civics.
>
> http://www.greenhybrid.com/discuss/f...n-grill-16922/
>
> t
>

Hi Robert
I have been following this thread and have something for you to consider.

Honda makes very efficient engines, they are also as a rule small. The
combination means that there is a LIMITED amount of waste heat availible.

Consider that especially if the heater is at the max setting, there will
be a maximum amount of heat available for a given engine load (dependent
mainly on vehicle speed).

Given the fixed amount of waste heat available and the cooling effect of
the heater core, there will be a minimum outside air temperature that the
waste heat availible from the engine can support.

Colder than that temperature outside, the engine temperature will drop,
warmer than that temperature, the engine temperature will increase until
the thermostat opens. This is the "balance point" of your system.

If you read most good shop manuals they have a performance chart for air
conditioners that is analogous to this situation. At a certain outside
temperature, the capacity of the air conditioner becomes inadequate to cool
the car to a comfortable temperature.

I have only run into this situation once, living in north Texas. A college
roommate had a 74 Mercury capri with a 2.0 L engine and had the same
problem you had.(almost no heater below 20 degrees F). This engine had the
added problem of a water heated intake manifold. After a thorough
inspection I found that the engine air intake preheat tube (a baffle on the
exhaust manifold feeds hot air through a tube to the air cleaner) had been
disconnected. Simply reconnecting this tube lowered the coolant heat loss
to the intake manifold enough to tip the balance and make the heater work
correctly.

The only easy test I can come up with to see if your engine is
overcooling because of excess heat loss to the heater core is this:
Clamp off either one of the radiator hoses and drive the car. A defective
thermostat will not allow the engine to overcool because the radiator is
disabled. If it still overcools, then the only place that the heat is going
is out of the heater core and there is not a bad thermostat. No disassembly
required and you can buy clamps for this at a lot of tool stores, they are
used to do repairs without draining coolant.

A lot of the responders to your posts think that the heater core cannot
overcool the engine. This may be correct with large heavy vehicles with
large engines, but a small engine CAN be overcooled with a low enough
outside air temperature.
I realise you may think your problem is solved by the new thermostat, but
consider that you have not driven again at -36 degrees C. The balance point
for your heater and driving conditions may not have been met and may not
until next year when colder temperatures return.

The bad news is that there is no way to modify your engine to solve the
heater problem without a lot of engineering that would have to be done by
Honda, as an optional "arctic kit" or some such. That means a lot of r+d
for 1/10 of 1% of the cars they make. I doubt that it will happen. If I
was you I would try to fabricate a cover for your oil pan made of cardboard
or some such material to insulate and prevent heat loss from cold air
blowing across the oil pan and cooling the oil, but this would be a pain in
the butt to install and take off as outside temperatures increase to the
point where the oil would overheat.

Good luck
Scott