1986 Honda Accord LXI 2.0 FI
 

Awesome help so far. What I have found was that two of the more
common problems were at fault.

#1 The EFI Main Relay (RV0028 I believe) did have cracks around one of
the soldered posts. When I fixed this I gained all the proper clicks
at all the proper times, HOWEVER the fuel pump did not hum as it
should.

#2 When I inspected the fuel pump I found that it was receiving power
but not coming on. I replaced the fuel pump and the car started
immediately.

VOILA! you say? Well kind of. I am still ignorant as to proper
cylinder numbering as I am too tired to look it up this evening. BUT
the cylinder far opposite the distributor cap is missing for some
reason. I KNOW it is receiving spark and has a good plug because I
replaced the plug and got the snot shocked out of me when my
enthusiastic son turned the ignition on too soon. When I disconnect
the wire to that plug the engine runs the same as when connected (new
wires as of today btw). Also when I disconnect the harness from the
injector the engine idle remains the same (rough, miss, etc...) The
car seems to run up and down the road fine, but that last cylinder on
the right is just not firing, or not firing enough for it's absence to
make a difference. I used my stethoscope and all four injectors are
clicking right along.

What should I look for now? Timing? Valves? Could the injector click
and still be bad? I used a light to test the injector harness and I
know it is receiving signal. Please point me in the right direction.

Many thanks for your help so far.

Peace!
Jack

Re: 1986 Honda Accord LXI 2.0 FI
 

In article
<7ad6b2a9-673f-4bca-8732-f7c5c35690b4@v38g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
jack42038 <jacklarwa@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Awesome help so far. What I have found was that two of the more
> common problems were at fault.
>
> #1 The EFI Main Relay (RV0028 I believe) did have cracks around one of
> the soldered posts. When I fixed this I gained all the proper clicks
> at all the proper times, HOWEVER the fuel pump did not hum as it
> should.
>
> #2 When I inspected the fuel pump I found that it was receiving power
> but not coming on. I replaced the fuel pump and the car started
> immediately.
>
> VOILA! you say? Well kind of. I am still ignorant as to proper
> cylinder numbering as I am too tired to look it up this evening. BUT
> the cylinder far opposite the distributor cap is missing for some
> reason. I KNOW it is receiving spark and has a good plug because I
> replaced the plug and got the snot shocked out of me when my
> enthusiastic son turned the ignition on too soon. When I disconnect
> the wire to that plug the engine runs the same as when connected (new
> wires as of today btw). Also when I disconnect the harness from the
> injector the engine idle remains the same (rough, miss, etc...) The
> car seems to run up and down the road fine, but that last cylinder on
> the right is just not firing, or not firing enough for it's absence to
> make a difference. I used my stethoscope and all four injectors are
> clicking right along.
>
> What should I look for now? Timing? Valves? Could the injector click
> and still be bad? I used a light to test the injector harness and I
> know it is receiving signal. Please point me in the right direction.
>
> Many thanks for your help so far.
>
> Peace!
> Jack

Just for snorts and giggles, try swapping the bad cylinder spark plug
with one of the good ones, and see if the problem moves along with it.

Always check the simple stuff first...

Good Luck!

Erik

Re: 1986 Honda Accord LXI 2.0 FI
 

"jack42038" <jacklarwa@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7ad6b2a9-673f-4bca-8732-f7c5c35690b4@v38g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
> Awesome help so far. What I have found was that two of the more
> common problems were at fault.
>
> #1 The EFI Main Relay (RV0028 I believe) did have cracks around one of
> the soldered posts. When I fixed this I gained all the proper clicks
> at all the proper times, HOWEVER the fuel pump did not hum as it
> should.
>
> #2 When I inspected the fuel pump I found that it was receiving power
> but not coming on. I replaced the fuel pump and the car started
> immediately.
>
> VOILA! you say? Well kind of. I am still ignorant as to proper
> cylinder numbering as I am too tired to look it up this evening. BUT
> the cylinder far opposite the distributor cap is missing for some
> reason. I KNOW it is receiving spark and has a good plug because I
> replaced the plug and got the snot shocked out of me when my
> enthusiastic son turned the ignition on too soon. When I disconnect
> the wire to that plug the engine runs the same as when connected (new
> wires as of today btw). Also when I disconnect the harness from the
> injector the engine idle remains the same (rough, miss, etc...) The
> car seems to run up and down the road fine, but that last cylinder on
> the right is just not firing, or not firing enough for it's absence to
> make a difference. I used my stethoscope and all four injectors are
> clicking right along.
>
> What should I look for now? Timing? Valves? Could the injector click
> and still be bad? I used a light to test the injector harness and I
> know it is receiving signal. Please point me in the right direction.
>
> Many thanks for your help so far.
>
> Peace!
> Jack
>

My guess would be a fouled injector, since the car has been unused a little
while. It would still click but not deliver the right amount of fuel.

The valves and anything else that would affect the "compression" part of the
engine operation formula (compression, fuel, ignition) is best tested with a
compression check. There is always a chance one of the valves is stuck open
and needs to be freed up. The Honda engines are not usually known for that,
though. Anyway, it is the part of the formula that has a definitive test -
the rest have "by the way"s.

Mike

Re: 1986 Honda Accord LXI 2.0 FI
 

I would also remove the front driver's side wheel, put the
front driver's side on a jackstand, remove the valve cover,
manually rotate (COUNTERclockwise, or you will lose timing
belt tension) the crankshaft, and watch the springs on the
suspect cylinder's valves. If any one spring is not moving
or is moving oddly, then you have made progress on your
diagnosis. Figure stuck valve or bent valve.

A picture of a valve that stuck from gunk buildup and some
chatter on this:

http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=1806140

In the vein of keeping it simple, also try putting a bottle
of Chevron Techron (fuel system cleaner; available at
Autozone, WalMart, et al.) in the Accord's fuel tank next
time you fill it (per the bottle's directions). Run the
Accord to empty. Repeat. Not that this is going to clean up
crud on a stuck valve, but it might help.

Have you checked the timing?

I wonder whether an Italian tuneup would help here. It heats
the engine and has the RPM high. Put the Chevron Techron in
the tank. Drive the car up the steepest, longest hill you
can find at the highest speed allowed. Repeat a few times.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_tuneup .
http://www.mercedesshop.com/shopforu...p/t-32202.html

Ditto what Erik and Michael said.

Re: 1986 Honda Accord LXI 2.0 FI
 

On Dec 14, 3:15 am, Erik <e...@spam.this> wrote:
> In article
> <7ad6b2a9-673f-4bca-8732-f7c5c3569...@v38g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
>
>
>
> jack42038 <jackla...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Awesome help so far. What I have found was that two of the more
> > common problems were at fault.
>
> > #1 The EFI Main Relay (RV0028 I believe) did have cracks around one of
> > the soldered posts. When I fixed this I gained all the proper clicks
> > at all the proper times, HOWEVER the fuel pump did not hum as it
> > should.
>
> > #2 When I inspected the fuel pump I found that it was receiving power
> > but not coming on. I replaced the fuel pump and the car started
> > immediately.
>
> > VOILA! you say? Well kind of. I am still ignorant as to proper
> > cylinder numbering as I am too tired to look it up this evening. BUT
> > the cylinder far opposite the distributor cap is missing for some
> > reason. I KNOW it is receiving spark and has a good plug because I
> > replaced the plug and got the snot shocked out of me when my
> > enthusiastic son turned the ignition on too soon. When I disconnect
> > the wire to that plug the engine runs the same as when connected (new
> > wires as of today btw). Also when I disconnect the harness from the
> > injector the engine idle remains the same (rough, miss, etc...) The
> > car seems to run up and down the road fine, but that last cylinder on
> > the right is just not firing, or not firing enough for it's absence to
> > make a difference. I used my stethoscope and all four injectors are
> > clicking right along.
>
> > What should I look for now? Timing? Valves? Could the injector click
> > and still be bad? I used a light to test the injector harness and I
> > know it is receiving signal. Please point me in the right direction.
>
> > Many thanks for your help so far.
>
> > Peace!
> > Jack
>
> Just for snorts and giggles, try swapping the bad cylinder spark plug
> with one of the good ones, and see if the problem moves along with it.
>
> Always check the simple stuff first...
>
> Good Luck!
>
> Erik

I put a brand new plug into that cylinder right at the parts place and
it did not affect the problem at all. That was the first place I
thought to look because simple is usually the answer, usually. I'm
still hoping for simple some place else. That was also why I replaced
the wires right then and there too.

Does anyone happen to have a firing diagram from distributor to
cylinder for this car? Thanks

Re: 1986 Honda Accord LXI 2.0 FI
 

"jack42038" <jacklarwa@yahoo.com> wrote
> Does anyone happen to have a firing diagram
> from distributor to cylinder for this car?

http://www.autozone.com/shopping/rep...00c1528005f3a5
(scroll down to see your Accord's diagram)

The shop manual linked at
http://ww1.honda.co.uk/car/owner/workshop.html may also be
helpful.

Using Yahoo to search the site honda-tech.com turns up a lot
of discussion on stuck valves in older engines.

Re: 1986 Honda Accord LXI 2.0 FI
 

In article
<4ed85800-4137-4033-ada3-740f07f48e16@f11g2000vbf.googlegroups.com>,
jack42038 <jacklarwa@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On Dec 14, 3:15 am, Erik <e...@spam.this> wrote:
> > In article
> > <7ad6b2a9-673f-4bca-8732-f7c5c3569...@v38g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
> >
> >
> >
> > jack42038 <jackla...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > Awesome help so far. What I have found was that two of the more
> > > common problems were at fault.
> >
> > > #1 The EFI Main Relay (RV0028 I believe) did have cracks around one of
> > > the soldered posts. When I fixed this I gained all the proper clicks
> > > at all the proper times, HOWEVER the fuel pump did not hum as it
> > > should.
> >
> > > #2 When I inspected the fuel pump I found that it was receiving power
> > > but not coming on. I replaced the fuel pump and the car started
> > > immediately.
> >
> > > VOILA! you say? Well kind of. I am still ignorant as to proper
> > > cylinder numbering as I am too tired to look it up this evening. BUT
> > > the cylinder far opposite the distributor cap is missing for some
> > > reason. I KNOW it is receiving spark and has a good plug because I
> > > replaced the plug and got the snot shocked out of me when my
> > > enthusiastic son turned the ignition on too soon. When I disconnect
> > > the wire to that plug the engine runs the same as when connected (new
> > > wires as of today btw). Also when I disconnect the harness from the
> > > injector the engine idle remains the same (rough, miss, etc...) The
> > > car seems to run up and down the road fine, but that last cylinder on
> > > the right is just not firing, or not firing enough for it's absence to
> > > make a difference. I used my stethoscope and all four injectors are
> > > clicking right along.
> >
> > > What should I look for now? Timing? Valves? Could the injector click
> > > and still be bad? I used a light to test the injector harness and I
> > > know it is receiving signal. Please point me in the right direction.
> >
> > > Many thanks for your help so far.
> >
> > > Peace!
> > > Jack
> >
> > Just for snorts and giggles, try swapping the bad cylinder spark plug
> > with one of the good ones, and see if the problem moves along with it.
> >
> > Always check the simple stuff first...
> >
> > Good Luck!
> >
> > Erik
>
> I put a brand new plug into that cylinder right at the parts place and
> it did not affect the problem at all. That was the first place I
> thought to look because simple is usually the answer, usually. I'm
> still hoping for simple some place else. That was also why I replaced
> the wires right then and there too.
>
> Does anyone happen to have a firing diagram from distributor to
> cylinder for this car? Thanks

I think I'd run a quick compression test next... if it comes out ok,
the injector will need some scrutiny. (The bad cylinder's distributor
cap electrode isn't tracked to ground is it? Look close, both inside and
out.)

If I recall correctly, the distributor can only go in one way on that
engine. Number one cylinder is the the one closest to the crank
pulley... again if I recall correctly, the drivers side.

The firing order is conventional for an inline 4 cylinder: 1 3 4 2. If
your not sure which direction the distributor turns, just eyeball
distributor shaft/rotor with the cap off while an assistant bumps the
starter for you. Don't get shocked...

I suspect you don't have a firing order issue... if you did, I think
you'd probably have two dead cylinders, that is if it ran all.

Erik

Re: 1986 Honda Accord LXI 2.0 FI
 

"Erik" <erik@spam.this> wrote in message
news:erik-A17AB9.07352714122008@news.dslextreme.com...
>
> I suspect you don't have a firing order issue... if you did, I think
> you'd probably have two dead cylinders, that is if it ran all.
>
> Erik
>

I inadvertently swapped a couple wires on a Volvo 4-cyl recently. It didn't
actually start but complained *a lot* when I tried.

Mike

Re: 1986 Honda Accord LXI 2.0 FI
 

"Elle" <honda.lioness@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:j391l.18748$R43.9512@newsfe08.iad...
>I would also remove the front driver's side wheel, put the front driver's
>side on a jackstand, remove the valve cover, manually rotate
>(COUNTERclockwise, or you will lose timing belt tension) the crankshaft,
>and watch the springs on the suspect cylinder's valves. If any one spring
>is not moving or is moving oddly, then you have made progress on your
>diagnosis. Figure stuck valve or bent valve.
>
> A picture of a valve that stuck from gunk buildup and some chatter on
> this:
>
> http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=1806140
>
> In the vein of keeping it simple, also try putting a bottle of Chevron
> Techron (fuel system cleaner; available at Autozone, WalMart, et al.) in
> the Accord's fuel tank next time you fill it (per the bottle's
> directions). Run the Accord to empty. Repeat. Not that this is going to
> clean up crud on a stuck valve, but it might help.
>
> Have you checked the timing?
>
> I wonder whether an Italian tuneup would help here. It heats the engine
> and has the RPM high. Put the Chevron Techron in the tank. Drive the car
> up the steepest, longest hill you can find at the highest speed allowed.
> Repeat a few times. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_tuneup .
> http://www.mercedesshop.com/shopforu...p/t-32202.html
>

In spite of the low tech approach, it is effective - at least according to
the Volvo gurus. The early 850 models were prone to valve sticking because
of excessively tight tolerances. Often the engines would refuse to start.
The solution was to be persistent in order to get it to start, then to warm
up the engine thoroughly and do the "Italian tuneup," spending about five
minutes at 50 mph in second gear. I never heard of it not working.

I have recently changed to using primarily top tier gasoline brands. Some of
the brands (like Conoco here in the Southwest) are as cheap as the
discounters and the advantages in reducing deposits in injectors, valves and
combustion chambers make a small premium worth it to me.

My son has also used Seafoam engine treatment
(http://www.seafoamsales.com/motorTuneUp.htm) and has been happy with the
results in terms of drivability. It is available at NAPA. A word of warning,
though - running this stuff through the intake produces enormous amounts of
white smoke for several minutes, even after you stop adding it.

Mike

Re: 1986 Honda Accord LXI 2.0 FI
 

"Michael Pardee" <null@null.org> wrote
Re Italian tuneups--
> In spite of the low tech approach, it is effective - at
> least according to the Volvo gurus.

The only doubt I have is that Tom and Ray of "Car Talk"
recently said carbon buildups just do not occur the way they
used to, because of fuel injection replacing carburetors.

ISTM an Italian Tuneup could not hurt anything, though. I
did one a few months ago on my 91 fuel injected Civic after
it failed NOX emissions. I did several other things,
including a new aftermarket catalytic converter too. One way
or another, it passed the next emissions test easily.

> I have recently changed to using primarily top tier
> gasoline brands. Some of the brands (like Conoco here in
> the Southwest) are as cheap as the discounters and the
> advantages in reducing deposits in injectors, valves and
> combustion chambers make a small premium worth it to me.

I am still on the fence as to whether the premium brands
today make dollars sense. It is said that all the new
gasoline requirements now ensure even the low priced brands
are very clean gas.

> My son has also used Seafoam engine treatment
> (http://www.seafoamsales.com/motorTuneUp.htm) and has been
> happy with the results in terms of drivability.

I thought of Sea Foam, too, having seen the (mostly very
young and kind of uh experiment inclined, boy style) people
at honda-tech.com mention it much. But I checked further
today and see many say using Sea Foam is risky. Speaking
only as someone not as experienced as Erik (I think this is
the old Erik with the great posts often) nor Michael, and
based strictly on reading and the word on the streets about
the dubiousness of engine cleaners like Sea Foam, I would
not try the Sea Foam just yet. There is lots that is easier
to eliminate, first, like a stuck or bent valve.

Re: 1986 Honda Accord LXI 2.0 FI
 

In article <NEb1l.9943$297.2467@newsfe23.iad>,
"Elle" <honda.lioness@gmail.com> wrote:

> (I think this is
> the old Erik with the great posts often)

I've been lurking here for years, and may have posted a time or two, but
for the most part I'm a new poster here.

Erik

Re: 1986 Honda Accord LXI 2.0 FI
 

"Erik" <erik@spam.this> wrote
> In article <NEb1l.9943$297.2467@newsfe23.iad>,
> "Elle" <honda.lioness@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> (I think this is
>> the old Erik with the great posts often)
>
> I've been lurking here for years, and may have posted a
> time or two, but
> for the most part I'm a new poster here.

If it's literally only a time or two, then I beg your
pardon. It's a different Erik. Not to subtract from your
expertise.

Re: 1986 Honda Accord LXI 2.0 FI
 

In article <Srd1l.8802$5P1.4318@newsfe13.iad>,
"Elle" <honda.lioness@gmail.com> wrote:

> "Erik" <erik@spam.this> wrote
> > In article <NEb1l.9943$297.2467@newsfe23.iad>,
> > "Elle" <honda.lioness@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> (I think this is
> >> the old Erik with the great posts often)
> >
> > I've been lurking here for years, and may have posted a
> > time or two, but
> > for the most part I'm a new poster here.
>
> If it's literally only a time or two, then I beg your
> pardon. It's a different Erik. Not to subtract from your
> expertise.

Yes, literally only a time or two, sounds like there is/was another
poster named Erik.

Erik

Re: 1986 Honda Accord LXI 2.0 FI
 

jack42038 <jacklarwa@yahoo.com> wrote in news:4ed85800-4137-4033-ada3-
740f07f48e16@f11g2000vbf.googlegroups.com:


>
> I put a brand new plug into that cylinder right at the parts place and
> it did not affect the problem at all. That was the first place I
> thought to look because simple is usually the answer, usually. I'm
> still hoping for simple some place else. That was also why I replaced
> the wires right then and there too.
>
> Does anyone happen to have a firing diagram from distributor to
> cylinder for this car? Thanks



See my reply in your original thread. Why you started a new one is beyond
me.

--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: 1986 Honda Accord LXI 2.0 FI
 

Just an update on about 1000 miles worth of practice driving in the
last week.

The good: The compression is now up over 100psi and staying there
(that's a simple dry test).
The car is driving and handling well. It still has
it's clutch and my son is getting better at shifting gears.
The coolant level has not dropped an iota and there is
no more sign of any kind of coolant coming from the tailpipe.
The oil has not dropped either and has stayed a nice
honey color.
I found a new gas tank level sending unit from a parts
yard and will be installing that as soon as it gets here.
I replaced the power steering fluid with Honda fluid.
Fortunately there does not seem to be any damage from the ATF. Is the
Honda fluid simply Mineral Oil?

The not good: Still when I unplug the wire from plug #1, there is no
change in the idle of the engine, but if I try and run it down the
road with that injector unplugged, it will barely pull a hill.
It's like the cylinder is only dead at idle, but at speed it appears
to work.
The PGMFI light keeps coming on as always.


The ask for help.
So, what do you think? I have put every known home
remedy into Cylinder #1 and have achieved about 30 extra psi, but it
should be a total of 150psi.
I said that I would report back, and so this is it.
Thanks again guys for your help and information. It has been very
instructive.

Peace!
Jack

Re: 1986 Honda Accord LXI 2.0 FI
 

I think you have taken it about as far as you can without heroic measures
and it is working well enough. As far as the compression goes, I think you
have entered the "don't touch it - you'll break it" zone. I think you are
right; the compression is inadequate at idle but adequate when called on. At
that point my only concern would be for the catalytic temp (and cold idle HC
emissions) at idle, since it is being fed unburned fuel/air mixture.

Short exposure to the non-Honda PS fluid should be okay. I presume Honda
uses natural rubber seals and that is why standard fluids ruin them. In my
younger days I put standard DOT3 brake fluid in the Girling brake system of
my Lotus. About a month later I stepped on the brake to find it useless -
the bad fluid had attacked the master cylinder secondary seal first (it was
bathed on both sides by bad fluid) and then the primary seal. Probably about
the same story with Honda PS.

Mike

"jack42038" <jacklarwa@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ffe790fe-6c9b-405b-b0b8-c895e1095aea@f3g2000vbf.googlegroups.com...
> Just an update on about 1000 miles worth of practice driving in the
> last week.
>
> The good: The compression is now up over 100psi and staying there
> (that's a simple dry test).
> The car is driving and handling well. It still has
> it's clutch and my son is getting better at shifting gears.
> The coolant level has not dropped an iota and there is
> no more sign of any kind of coolant coming from the tailpipe.
> The oil has not dropped either and has stayed a nice
> honey color.
> I found a new gas tank level sending unit from a parts
> yard and will be installing that as soon as it gets here.
> I replaced the power steering fluid with Honda fluid.
> Fortunately there does not seem to be any damage from the ATF. Is the
> Honda fluid simply Mineral Oil?
>
> The not good: Still when I unplug the wire from plug #1, there is no
> change in the idle of the engine, but if I try and run it down the
> road with that injector unplugged, it will barely pull a hill.
> It's like the cylinder is only dead at idle, but at speed it appears
> to work.
> The PGMFI light keeps coming on as always.
>
>
> The ask for help.
> So, what do you think? I have put every known home
> remedy into Cylinder #1 and have achieved about 30 extra psi, but it
> should be a total of 150psi.
> I said that I would report back, and so this is it.
> Thanks again guys for your help and information. It has been very
> instructive.
>
> Peace!
> Jack
>
>
>

Re: 1986 Honda Accord LXI 2.0 FI
 

jack42038 <jacklarwa@yahoo.com> wrote in news:ffe790fe-6c9b-405b-b0b8-
c895e1095aea@f3g2000vbf.googlegroups.com:

> Just an update on about 1000 miles worth of practice driving in the
> last week.
>
> The good: The compression is now up over 100psi and staying there
> (that's a simple dry test).




That's absolutely awful. /Minimum/ dry should be about 150.




> The car is driving and handling well. It still has
> it's clutch and my son is getting better at shifting gears.
> The coolant level has not dropped an iota and there is
> no more sign of any kind of coolant coming from the tailpipe.
> The oil has not dropped either and has stayed a nice
> honey color.
> I found a new gas tank level sending unit from a parts
> yard and will be installing that as soon as it gets here.
> I replaced the power steering fluid with Honda fluid.
> Fortunately there does not seem to be any damage from the ATF. Is the
> Honda fluid simply Mineral Oil?




It might be, but the additive package is the most important thing. Honda
says that use of non-Honda fluids will damage the PS system.

Note they say WILL, mot MAY.

The damage shows up over time as leaking seals; it does not happen
overnight.




>
> The not good: Still when I unplug the wire from plug #1, there is no
> change in the idle of the engine, but if I try and run it down the
> road with that injector unplugged, it will barely pull a hill.
> It's like the cylinder is only dead at idle, but at speed it appears
> to work.



At speed you've got the throttle partly open at high revs, so your
actual compression is higher.

Are you certain you're doing the compression test correctly?
1) engine fully-warmed up
2) remove ignition fuse
3) hold throttle wide open
4) make sure compression gauge is tight in spark plug hole
5) crank and read


What happens when you swap the suspect injector to a different cylinder?




> The PGMFI light keeps coming on as always.




What is/are the code/s stored? Might give a clue as to what's happenng
here.



>
>
> The ask for help.
> So, what do you think? I have put every known home
> remedy into Cylinder #1 and have achieved about 30 extra psi, but it
> should be a total of 150psi.




I still think you've simply got an old, tired, worn-out engine.

Read the Check Engine light codes, and try swapping the injector to
another cylinder.



--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: 1986 Honda Accord LXI 2.0 FI
 

jack42038 wrote:
> Just an update on about 1000 miles worth of practice driving in the
> last week.
>
> The good: The compression is now up over 100psi and staying there
> (that's a simple dry test).
> The car is driving and handling well. It still has
> it's clutch and my son is getting better at shifting gears.
> The coolant level has not dropped an iota and there is
> no more sign of any kind of coolant coming from the tailpipe.
> The oil has not dropped either and has stayed a nice
> honey color.
> I found a new gas tank level sending unit from a parts
> yard and will be installing that as soon as it gets here.

check the tank for dents first. if it has any, it could be an internal
baffle problem, not a float/sender problem.




> I replaced the power steering fluid with Honda fluid.
> Fortunately there does not seem to be any damage from the ATF. Is the
> Honda fluid simply Mineral Oil?

believe it's silicone.


>
> The not good: Still when I unplug the wire from plug #1, there is no
> change in the idle of the engine, but if I try and run it down the
> road with that injector unplugged, it will barely pull a hill.

so it's working then. don't monkey about with it any more. engine
replacement is cheaper than repair in this kind of situation.



> It's like the cylinder is only dead at idle, but at speed it appears
> to work.
> The PGMFI light keeps coming on as always.

what is the code????



>
>
> The ask for help.
> So, what do you think? I have put every known home
> remedy into Cylinder #1 and have achieved about 30 extra psi, but it
> should be a total of 150psi.

i say stop fixating on it and just keep driving. yes, it's low per the
book, but it still works. and if you'd never measured it, you'd never know.

bottom line: unless you want to spend a heap of time and money, simply
run it until it fails. then buy a cheapo jdm import engine for a few
hundred bucks and you can have it swapped in 1/5th the time it'll
otherwise take you to repair the original motor.





> I said that I would report back, and so this is it.
> Thanks again guys for your help and information. It has been very
> instructive.
>
> Peace!
> Jack
>
>

Re: 1986 Honda Accord LXI 2.0 FI
 

On Jan 5, 8:38 pm, Tegger <inva...@invalid.inv> wrote:
> jack42038 <jackla...@yahoo.com> wrote in news:ffe790fe-6c9b-405b-b0b8-
> c895e1095...@f3g2000vbf.googlegroups.com:
>
> > Just an update on about 1000 miles worth of practice driving in the
> > last week.
>
> > The good: The compression is now up over 100psi and staying there
> > (that's a simple dry test).
>
> That's absolutely awful. /Minimum/ dry should be about 150.
>
> > The car is driving and handling well. It still has
> > it's clutch and my son is getting better at shifting gears.
> > The coolant level has not dropped an iota and there is
> > no more sign of any kind of coolant coming from the tailpipe.
> > The oil has not dropped either and has stayed a nice
> > honey color.
> > I found a new gas tank level sending unit from a parts
> > yard and will be installing that as soon as it gets here.
> > I replaced the power steering fluid with Honda fluid.
> > Fortunately there does not seem to be any damage from the ATF. Is the
> > Honda fluid simply Mineral Oil?
>
> It might be, but the additive package is the most important thing. Honda
> says that use of non-Honda fluids will damage the PS system.
>
> Note they say WILL, mot MAY.
>
> The damage shows up over time as leaking seals; it does not happen
> overnight.
>
>
>
> > The not good: Still when I unplug the wire from plug #1, there is no
> > change in the idle of the engine, but if I try and run it down the
> > road with that injector unplugged, it will barely pull a hill.
> > It's like the cylinder is only dead at idle, but at speed it appears
> > to work.
>
> At speed you've got the throttle partly open at high revs, so your
> actual compression is higher.
>
> Are you certain you're doing the compression test correctly?
> 1) engine fully-warmed up
> 2) remove ignition fuse
> 3) hold throttle wide open
> 4) make sure compression gauge is tight in spark plug hole
> 5) crank and read
>
> What happens when you swap the suspect injector to a different cylinder?
>
> > The PGMFI light keeps coming on as always.
>
> What is/are the code/s stored? Might give a clue as to what's happenng
> here.
>
>
>
> > The ask for help.
> > So, what do you think? I have putevery known home
> > remedy into Cylinder #1 and have achieved about 30 extra psi, but it
> > should be a total of 150psi.
>
> I still think you've simply got an old, tired, worn-out engine.
>
> Read the Check Engine light codes, and try swapping the injector to
> another cylinder.
>
> --
> Tegger
>
> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQwww.tegger.com/hondafaq/



The codes manifest themselves in this vehicle as a series of tones
when you turn the car on. I get 6 tones. I was told that this may
have something to do with the EGR and that it may need cleaning. What
think ye?

Just to note, I can keep the PGMFI light from coming on if I run the
engine at high revs right from the driveway. I can take it about 15
miles before I encounter roads and places where I have to slow down
and it is when I begin driving in "in town" type situations that I get
the light. When I drive it sanely from the driveway, I get the PGMFI
light before I get to the first stop sign at the end of my block.

You have described the exact procedure I am using for checking the
compression. I understand that the compression is still woefully
low. I do wonder what caused it to jump the 30lbs though. Perhaps
one ring was stuck and another was damaged? When I swapped the
injector it had no effect, swapping the plug was the same. The plug
wires are new, OE. The plugs are new Champion\ for the moment until I
can get the proper NGK for the car. (If this is necessary)

I am not sure how else to check for stored codes, I have an OBDII
reader, but this car is pre OBD.

The reason I asked about it being mineral oil was because I know there
are a couple cars on the market that use pure mineral oil for their
hydraulic systems, ps, brakes, leveling, etc... Rolls Royce has gone
back and forth on this a couple times during their production years.

As soon as I saw what was posted about the PS fluid I went and flushed
the system and refilled it with the only thing that I could find that
said it was for Honda, Champion PS fluid. It was the shop that
aligned the front end that put the ATF in there, even when I remarked
to them that I thought Honda fluid was different. They assured me
that this was a myth and that it was all just transmission fluid. I
will remember not to let them interfere with the fluids in my Jaguar.

I guess what we will do is to continue basic regular maintenance until
such time as the engine is unusable. To tell the truth, I am glad my
son learned how to shift on a car that we wouldn't cry over. We
still haven't put enough money into it to amount to a couple months
car payments yet.

Is there a link for JDM engines?

Thanks again for the help and advice!
Peace!
Jack

Re: 1986 Honda Accord LXI 2.0 FI
 

jack42038 wrote:

> The codes manifest themselves in this vehicle as a series of tones
> when you turn the car on. I get 6 tones.

Those 6 tones are the seat belt reminder.

On that version of Accord, I believe the ECU is located under the driver's
seat. If you can access it, it will flash a series a lighted codes with
short and long blinks.

Re: 1986 Honda Accord LXI 2.0 FI
 

On Jan 6, 1:16 pm, Eternal Searcher <eternalsearc...@yahoo.ca.invalid>
wrote:
> jack42038 wrote:
> > The codes manifest themselves in this vehicle as a series of tones
> > when you turn the car on. I get 6 tones.
>
> Those 6 tones are the seat belt reminder.
>
> On that version of Accord, I believe the ECU is located under the driver's
> seat. If you can access it, it will flash a series a lighted codes with
> short and long blinks.

I was told by the previous owner that the beeps were this car's
version of the flashing lights. Should the tones continue to sound
even when the seatbelt is already on? If not, they do.

I did look under the seat, per the manual, but try as I might I could
not find any flashing lights. I looked from behind and in front of
the driver's seat. I will look again in a few because I have to fix
some speaker wires in the door. It seems that so long as he has
something to listen to as he drives back and forth to school that the
engine problem is no biggie for my son.

Thank You
Jack

Re: 1986 Honda Accord LXI 2.0 FI
 

jack42038 wrote:

>>> The codes manifest themselves in this vehicle as a series of tones
>>> when you turn the car on. I get 6 tones.
>>
>> Those 6 tones are the seat belt reminder.
>>
>> On that version of Accord, I believe the ECU is located under the driver's
>> seat. If you can access it, it will flash a series a lighted codes with
>> short and long blinks.
>
> I was told by the previous owner that the beeps were this car's
> version of the flashing lights. Should the tones continue to sound
> even when the seatbelt is already on? If not, they do.

Here's an idea. Buckle the seat belt before starting the car, and then
listen for the beeps when starting. I bet you won't hear them. :-)

Re: 1986 Honda Accord LXI 2.0 FI
 

Eternal Searcher wrote:

> jack42038 wrote:
>
>>>> The codes manifest themselves in this vehicle as a series of tones
>>>> when you turn the car on. I get 6 tones.
>>>
>>> Those 6 tones are the seat belt reminder.
>>>
>>> On that version of Accord, I believe the ECU is located under the driver's
>>> seat. If you can access it, it will flash a series a lighted codes with
>>> short and long blinks.
>>
>> I was told by the previous owner that the beeps were this car's
>> version of the flashing lights. Should the tones continue to sound
>> even when the seatbelt is already on? If not, they do.
>
> Here's an idea. Buckle the seat belt before starting the car, and then
> listen for the beeps when starting. I bet you won't hear them. :-)

Oops, sorry. Didn't see where you said it still sounds with the belt on.
Never mind.

Re: 1986 Honda Accord LXI 2.0 FI
 

jack42038 <jacklarwa@yahoo.com> wrote in news:798e3c1b-9e84-40b6-b9bb-
41015e60b47d@e18g2000vbe.googlegroups.com:


>
>
>
> The codes manifest themselves in this vehicle as a series of tones
> when you turn the car on. I get 6 tones.




Whoever told you that was not too knowledgeable about Hondas.

See this PDF:
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/..._E_14JAN03.pdf
starting on page 13.




> I was told that this may
> have something to do with the EGR and that it may need cleaning. What
> think ye?



I think nothing without the proper code.




>
> Just to note, I can keep the PGMFI light from coming on if I run the
> engine at high revs right from the driveway. I can take it about 15
> miles before I encounter roads and places where I have to slow down
> and it is when I begin driving in "in town" type situations that I get
> the light. When I drive it sanely from the driveway, I get the PGMFI
> light before I get to the first stop sign at the end of my block.
>
> You have described the exact procedure I am using for checking the
> compression. I understand that the compression is still woefully
> low. I do wonder what caused it to jump the 30lbs though. Perhaps
> one ring was stuck and another was damaged? When I swapped the
> injector it had no effect, swapping the plug was the same. The plug
> wires are new, OE. The plugs are new Champion\ for the moment until I
> can get the proper NGK for the car. (If this is necessary)
>
> I am not sure how else to check for stored codes, I have an OBDII
> reader, but this car is pre OBD.




See the above PDF. Read the entire Honda section.



>
> The reason I asked about it being mineral oil was because I know there
> are a couple cars on the market that use pure mineral oil for their
> hydraulic systems, ps, brakes, leveling, etc... Rolls Royce has gone
> back and forth on this a couple times during their production years.
>
> As soon as I saw what was posted about the PS fluid I went and flushed
> the system and refilled it with the only thing that I could find that
> said it was for Honda, Champion PS fluid.




That's not Honda fluid. Do not use aftermarket fluids even though they
may claim to be Honda-compatible.

Then again, your ride is probably so far gone by now that it won't
matter what you put in it.




It was the shop that
> aligned the front end that put the ATF in there, even when I remarked
> to them that I thought Honda fluid was different. They assured me
> that this was a myth and that it was all just transmission fluid.




What a bunch of dummies. Probably just wanted to get you out of their
shop.




--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: 1986 Honda Accord LXI 2.0 FI
 

On Jan 6, 5:26 pm, Tegger <inva...@invalid.inv> wrote:
> jack42038 <jackla...@yahoo.com> wrote in news:798e3c1b-9e84-40b6-b9bb-
> 41015e60b...@e18g2000vbe.googlegroups.com:
>
>
>
> > The codes manifest themselves in this vehicle as a series of tones
> > when you turn the car on. I get 6 tones.
>
> Whoever told you that was not too knowledgeable about Hondas.
>
> See this PDF:http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/..._E_14JAN03.pdf
> starting on page 13.
>
> > I was told that this may
> > have something to do with the EGR and that it may need cleaning. What
> > think ye?
>
> I think nothing without the proper code.
>
>
>
>
>
> > Just to note, I can keep the PGMFI light from coming on if I run the
> > engine at high revs right from the driveway. I can take it about 15
> > miles before I encounter roads and places where I have to slow down
> > and it is when I begin driving in "in town" type situations that I get
> > the light. When I drive it sanely from the driveway, I get the PGMFI
> > light before I get to the first stop sign at the end of my block.
>
> > You have described the exact procedure I am using for checking the
> > compression. I understand that the compression is still woefully
> > low. I do wonder what caused it to jump the 30lbs though. Perhaps
> > one ring was stuck and another was damaged? When I swapped the
> > injector it had no effect, swapping the plug was the same. The plug
> > wires are new, OE. The plugs are new Champion\ for the moment until I
> > can get the proper NGK for the car. (If this is necessary)
>
> > I am not sure how else to check for stored codes, I have an OBDII
> > reader, but this car is pre OBD.
>
> See the above PDF. Read the entire Honda section.
>
>
>
> > The reason I asked about it being mineral oil was because I know there
> > are a couple cars on the market that use pure mineral oil for their
> > hydraulic systems, ps, brakes, leveling, etc... Rolls Royce has gone
> > back and forth on this a couple times during their production years.
>
> > As soon as I saw what was posted about the PS fluid I went and flushed
> > the system and refilled it with the only thing that I could find that
> > said it was for Honda, Champion PS fluid.
>
> That's not Honda fluid. Do not use aftermarket fluids even though they
> may claim to be Honda-compatible.
>
> Then again, your ride is probably so far gone by now that it won't
> matter what you put in it.
>
> It was the shop that
>
> > aligned the front end that put the ATF in there, even when I remarked
> > to them that I thought Honda fluid was different. They assured me
> > that this was a myth and that it was all just transmission fluid.
>
> What a bunch of dummies. Probably just wanted to get you out of their
> shop.
>
> --
> Tegger
>
> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQwww.tegger.com/hondafaq/

You know, with the internet being such a wealth of information and a
multitude of personalities. I can't imagine why I would ever have the
need to ask a question where Tegger might possibly answer me again.

You sir are an ass. You seem to take delight in lording your
knowledge over others and I believe it is unconscionable. Not only my
posts, but others as well. I saw one recently where you berated a man
for not using OEM parts and when he said he would try to replace them,
you made a mockery of his statements. I only came here for
information and certainly didn't bring this type of attitude with
me.

Blessings on you and here is the dust from my feet.

Peace!
Jack

Re: 1986 Honda Accord LXI 2.0 FI
 

jack42038 wrote:
> On Jan 6, 5:26�pm, Tegger <inva...@invalid.inv> wrote:
>> jack42038 <jackla...@yahoo.com> wrote in news:798e3c1b-9e84-40b6-b9bb-
>> 41015e60b...@e18g2000vbe.googlegroups.com:
>>
>>
>>
>>> The codes manifest themselves in this vehicle as a series of tones
>>> when you turn the car on. �I get 6 tones.
>> Whoever told you that was not too knowledgeable about Hondas.
>>
>> See this PDF:http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/misc/..._E_14JAN03.pdf
>> starting on page 13.
>>
>>> �I was told that this may
>>> have something to do with the EGR and that it may need cleaning. �What
>>> think ye?
>> I think nothing without the proper code.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Just to note, I can keep the PGMFI light from coming on if I run the
>>> engine at high revs right from the driveway. �I can take it about 15
>>> miles before I encounter roads and places where I have to slow down
>>> and it is when I begin driving in "in town" type situations that I get
>>> the light. �When I drive it sanely from the driveway, I get the PGMFI
>>> light before I get to the first stop sign at the end of my block.
>>> You have described the exact procedure I am using for checking the
>>> compression. �I understand that the compression is still woefully
>>> low. �I do wonder what caused it to jump the 30lbs though. �Perhaps
>>> one ring was stuck and another was damaged? � When I swapped the
>>> injector it had no effect, swapping the plug was the same. �The plug
>>> wires are new, OE. �The plugs are new Champion\ for the moment until I
>>> can get the proper NGK for the car. (If this is necessary)
>>> I am not sure how else to check for stored codes, I have an OBDII
>>> reader, but this car is pre OBD.
>> See the above PDF. Read the entire Honda section.
>>
>>
>>
>>> The reason I asked about it being mineral oil was because I know there
>>> are a couple cars on the market that use pure mineral oil for their
>>> hydraulic systems, ps, brakes, leveling, etc... �Rolls Royce has gone
>>> back and forth on this a couple times during their production years.
>>> As soon as I saw what was posted about the PS fluid I went and flushed
>>> the system and refilled it with the only thing that I could find that
>>> said it was for Honda, Champion PS fluid.
>> That's not Honda fluid. Do not use aftermarket fluids even though they
>> may claim to be Honda-compatible.
>>
>> Then again, your ride is probably so far gone by now that it won't
>> matter what you put in it.
>>
>> � It was the shop that
>>
>>> aligned the front end that put the ATF in there, even when I remarked
>>> to them that I thought Honda fluid was different. �They assured me
>>> that this was a myth and that it was all just transmission fluid.
>> What a bunch of dummies. Probably just wanted to get you out of their
>> shop.
>>
>> --
>> Tegger
>>
>> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQwww.tegger.com/hondafaq/
>
> You know, with the internet being such a wealth of information and a
> multitude of personalities. I can't imagine why I would ever have the
> need to ask a question where Tegger might possibly answer me again.
>
> You sir are an ass. You seem to take delight in lording your
> knowledge over others and I believe it is unconscionable. Not only my
> posts, but others as well. I saw one recently where you berated a man
> for not using OEM parts and when he said he would try to replace them,
> you made a mockery of his statements. I only came here for
> information and certainly didn't bring this type of attitude with
> me.
>
> Blessings on you and here is the dust from my feet.
>
> Peace!
> Jack

it's amazing how, "with the internet being such a wealth of
information", that you can want to remain so ignorant. you got good
advice. if you don't want it, wtf did you bother wasting electrons
asking for it? goddamned idiot.

Re: 1986 Honda Accord LXI 2.0 FI
 

Hi Jack, say I think there has been either a miscommunication or else
tone has been lost due to the limitations of internet forum
communications. Please allow me to tag onto Tegger's post and voice
what I know and understand.

On Jan 6, 4:26 pm, Tegger <inva...@invalid.inv> wrote:
> jack42038 <jackla...@yahoo.com> wrote
> > The codes manifest themselves in this vehicle as a series of tones
> > when you turn the car on. I get 6 tones.
>
> Whoever told you that was not too knowledgeable about Hondas.

Jack, it is true that there are no audible sounds to tell a person
what the codes are. Unless the person who told you this meant
something other than audible sounds, then Tegger is correct that he
does not know much about Hondas.

For reading the codes (which consists of counting blinks of a light at
the engine computer), see
http://www.autozone.com/addVehicleId...00c1528005f5a6
or Tegger's web site.


> > I was told that this may
> > have something to do with the EGR and that it may need cleaning. What
> > think ye?
>
> I think nothing without the proper code.

Jack, IMO the point he is trying to make is that, when an engine code
is thrown, speculating on a diagnosis does not make sense and is
pretty much a waste of forum space. IOW, first things first. Get the
code read.

> > The reason I asked about it being mineral oil was because I know there
> > are a couple cars on the market that use pure mineral oil for their
> > hydraulic systems, ps, brakes, leveling, etc... Rolls Royce has gone
> > back and forth on this a couple times during their production years.
>
> > As soon as I saw what was posted about the PS fluid I went and flushed
> > the system and refilled it with the only thing that I could find that
> > said it was for Honda, Champion PS fluid.
>
> That's not Honda fluid. Do not use aftermarket fluids even though they
> may claim to be Honda-compatible.

I do not find Tegger's response rude. There really is a consensus on
certain fluids having to be OEM and only OEM. But I admit here Tegger
and I differ. I have been using an aftermarket PS fluid that very
specifically says it is for Hondas for over six years in my 91 Civic.
The aftermarket fluid is the one I used for a pretty much a complete
PS system flush. My 91 Civic is doing superbly.

The brand name of my PS fluid is "Coastal Honda Power Steering Fluid"
made by "Warren Unilube." It also says on the label that it is
"formulated to meet the power steering requirements of Honda and Acura
vehicles." It lists no other makes of cars on it. I buy this at Pep
Boys or Autozone.

If the Champion PS fluid says it was okay for Hondas, I am betting all
will be well, assuming the other fluid was not in there long.

> Then again, your ride is probably so far gone by now that it won't
> matter what you put in it.

He has a point. Your son's ride is somewhat crippled from the one
cylinder's compression problems. I would expect more problems down the
line.

> > aligned the front end that put the ATF in there, even when I remarked
> > to them that I thought Honda fluid was different. They assured me
> > that this was a myth and that it was all just transmission fluid.
>
> What a bunch of dummies. Probably just wanted to get you out of their
> shop.

No mincing words here: It's true they are dummies. Using Honda
designated PS fluid is very important. PS system seals failing because
of not using Honda PS fluid is a well-known problem about which you
can find discussion on the internet.

FWIW, Tegger and I have our disagreements but overwhelmingly he
(including his communications style) is pretty darn good about helping
folks get their rides back together. He works his rear off to maintain
a very good DIY site. I would say nearly all of us could maybe stand a
beer (all right, a shot of vodka) once in awhile before posting. But I
did not find this particular post insulting.

1.5 cents.

It has been an interesting thread and I look forward to seeing how
this engine of yours holds out.

Re: 1986 Honda Accord LXI 2.0 FI
 

jack42038 <jacklarwa@yahoo.com> wrote in news:36902d42-6392-4066-b0e1-
81594bc55f06@x38g2000yqj.googlegroups.com:


>
> You know, with the internet being such a wealth of information and a
> multitude of personalities. I can't imagine why I would ever have the
> need to ask a question where Tegger might possibly answer me again.



This is Usenet; a thick skin is a Useful thing on Usenet

You are free to ask inane questions, and I am free to blather on in
answer to them. You can always killfile me, you know. My handle never
changes, so I should be easy to filter out.



>
> You sir are an ass. You seem to take delight in lording your
> knowledge over others



I do?

You came here looking for answers and I gave answers as best I could.
What more do you want?




> and I believe it is unconscionable. Not only my
> posts, but others as well. I saw one recently where you berated a man
> for not using OEM parts and when he said he would try to replace them,
> you made a mockery of his statements.



Because so many people /do/ make such promises and never follow through,
to their detriment.

I see an awful lot of problems that were caused by the use of
aftermarket parts and nothing else. My opinion of most aftermarket is
very low.

Just the other day there was this guy with sticky brakes. Turned out his
aftermarket front brake rotors had the wrong "hat" height, so the rotors
were binding against the pad mount bracket.




> I only came here for
> information and certainly didn't bring this type of attitude with
> me.



I think you've got your nose out of joint because I insulted your wheels
(and possibly also you're mistakenly thinking the "dummies" comment was
directed at you).

As far as I'm concerned, an engine that has two-thirds of the minimum
acceptable compression IS "far gone". And when that engine is in a 22
year-old car with no value beyond basic transportation, well...



>
> Blessings on you and here is the dust from my feet.



I'll take the blessings, thanks. You can keep the dust.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: 1986 Honda Accord LXI 2.0 FI
 

Well fwiw I have really appreciated everything Tegger has had to say,
even the bad news. If an answer is the right answer it doesn't matter
whether it is what I wanted to hear.

Tegger was right of course about the blinking codes "no pun intended"
there are 12 blinks and according to the specs that does mean EGR
valve which I will tackle next. I had to remove a cover that blended
in with the computer box. I didn't see little portal there and just
went looking for the blinking light. Since I work during the day I
have done most of this work at night with a flashlight. It was the
previous owner that told me that it was the 6 beeps that indicated
something was wrong with the EGR. He sold me the car for a very
little bit. It was his mother in laws and it was in his way.

The thing that aggravated me (hurt would be a good word too) was the
insinuation that someone would "want me out of their shop". That
stung. I don't know what I said or did to Tegger or anyone else on
this group or in this thread to make someone think that someone would
want me gone. I have always said thanks when anyone has offered
advice and I do appreciate people taking the time, but I don't know
why someone would want to come off sounding mean when all I am doing
is trying to ask questions. I am ignorant about Hondas. I am trying
to fix that. Does it make me a bad person because I don't know this
stuff already? I don't think so. If you came to me to ask how to
build a violin, I would not treat you like a moron for not knowing the
importance of medullary rays.

I am all for a shot of vodka. Actually the stuff my uncle makes would
be better, that or Grappa.

I have not doubted a word of Tegger's technical expertise. It was his
FAQ page that got this blinking Honda going to begin with and I gave
him props for that in my first post. Had it not been for that, it
wouldn't be going at all.

Perhaps I should have just addressed Tegger privately, but I didn't
and that was my mistake. I am not disagreeing with his diagnosis.
There are two threads going on in the back of my mind. One is trying
to see if this thing is at all fixable the other is pricing engines
and reading up to see how to do that. I know that may well be the
fallback position, but in the mean time I intend to learn all I
possibly can.

If I took Tegger's words wrong, then I apologize. If he did not
intend to sound the way I read it, then it is my mistake and I am big
enough to own up to it. If he really meant to say that someone would
tear up my son's car just to get me out of their shop, then I still
stand confused and hurt by the statement.

Thoughtfully yours
Jack

Re: 1986 Honda Accord LXI 2.0 FI
 

jack42038 <jacklarwa@yahoo.com> wrote in news:ffbf764c-8cff-4414-968b-
ec41f5770b80@g3g2000pre.googlegroups.com:


>
> The thing that aggravated me (hurt would be a good word too) was the
> insinuation that someone would "want me out of their shop". That
> stung.



Ah, I get it now. But you're taking this wrongly. I was sneering at the
shop, not at you.

What I meant was that this garage is one of those ignorant and sloppy
outfits: they just want to take your money then shoo you out the door quick
before you make them spend time that they can't charge for.

If they're putting ATF into a Honda steering system, they very obviously
have no clue what they're doing and must have lots of comebacks. When you
questioned them about the ATF, they became afraid you might tell them to
take it out and put the right stuff in, which would cost them time and
money, so they just gave you a soothing BS story and pushed you out the
door. Don't go back there again.



--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: 1986 Honda Accord LXI 2.0 FI
 

On Jan 7, 10:05 pm, Tegger <inva...@invalid.inv> wrote:
> jack42038 <jackla...@yahoo.com> wrote in news:ffbf764c-8cff-4414-968b-
> ec41f5770...@g3g2000pre.googlegroups.com:
>
>
>
> > The thing that aggravated me (hurt would be a good word too) was the
> > insinuation that someone would "want me out of their shop". That
> > stung.
>
> Ah, I get it now. But you're taking this wrongly. I was sneering at the
> shop, not at you.
>
> What I meant was that this garage is one of those ignorant and sloppy
> outfits: they just want to take your money then shoo you out the door quick
> before you make them spend time that they can't charge for.
>
> If they're putting ATF into a Honda steering system, they very obviously
> have no clue what they're doing and must have lots of comebacks. When you
> questioned them about the ATF, they became afraid you might tell them to
> take it out and put the right stuff in, which would cost them time and
> money, so they just gave you a soothing BS story and pushed you out the
> door. Don't go back there again.
>
> --
> Tegger
>
> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQwww.tegger.com/hondafaq/

I'm sorry. I took it wrong then. That was on me. Blessings on you
and I will keep the dust. ;)

I haven't taken it personally that the little Honda is not in the best
of shape. That doesn't hurt my feelings a bit. It has been simply a
matter of tuition. My son has learned how to change spark plug wires
and plugs. He has learned how to shift a manual transmission. He has
learned how to set the valve lash and how to replace a valve cover
gasket and what the timing belt is and a good many things that before
he had his own car, he didn't give a darn about. So all in all, I
still think I am ahead. The car does drive fairly well, even with one
weak cylinder. He can use it for a little while until I can find an
engine to replace it. The body is in pretty good condition, the power
steering has recently been flushed and renewed. For a 22yo car, it
wasn't bad for the total of $400 I now have in it.

I won't go back there again.

What do you think I could get an engine for this car for?

Thank You and My Sincerest Apologies for being an Ass
Jack

Re: 1986 Honda Accord LXI 2.0 FI
 

Let me run this one past you all.

Has anyone heard that in 1986 the camshafts were improperly ground and
the actual valve lash specs are .20mm IN and .32mm EX?

That is approximately .03mm above the published max specs from the
manual. This comes to me from another web personality who says he
knows this for sure.

My question would be this. If the cam was ground wrong, would that
change the aperture of lash?

As it is, my son and I set the valve lash on a very very cold engine
today and it did indeed cause the whole thing to run smoother,
however, it did not fix the compression problem. I didn't really
expect it to, but the lash was way off and needed setting anyways. I
set it to the top end .17mm and .30mm just in case there was some
truth to the claim.

In testing the compression again after all of this I do note that the
plug is not fouled in any way, it looks to be "cooking" nicely just
like the others. It was shiny around the edge of the point and the
arm was clean.

Thanks
Jack

Re: 1986 Honda Accord LXI 2.0 FI
 

"jack42038" <jacklarwa@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ffbf764c-8cff-4414-968b-ec41f5770b80@g3g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
> The thing that aggravated me (hurt would be a good word too) was the
> insinuation that someone would "want me out of their shop". That
> stung.

Please don't take that personally. That sentiment - the hope a customer will
just go away - is common throughout the service industry. It is especially
prevalent when a diagnosis is difficult. You will see it very often among
doctors (because they typically get paid by insurance only when they can
fill in a diagnosis on the form) and often enough among mechanics.

When I was a service manager in an avionics shop there were several
customers I hated to see. Some of them were just pains in the butt, but many
others were good people with really sticky problems. In the back, we would
groan when we heard their voices because we knew what was coming... and what
wasn't. We knew there was no more money coming from the customer - he had
paid for what should have been a repair but the problem was being stubborn -
so we were usually doing the work under shop warranty. Besides the financial
side of it was that familiar feeling of hopelessness, the feeling that the
problem was going to keep coming back no matter what we do. Nice guy - bad
radio.

Mike

Re: 1986 Honda Accord LXI 2.0 FI
 

Michael Pardee wrote:
> "jack42038" <jacklarwa@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:ffbf764c-8cff-4414-968b-ec41f5770b80@g3g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
>> The thing that aggravated me (hurt would be a good word too) was the
>> insinuation that someone would "want me out of their shop". That
>> stung.
>
> Please don't take that personally. That sentiment - the hope a customer will
> just go away - is common throughout the service industry. It is especially
> prevalent when a diagnosis is difficult. You will see it very often among
> doctors (because they typically get paid by insurance only when they can
> fill in a diagnosis on the form) and often enough among mechanics.
>
> When I was a service manager in an avionics shop there were several
> customers I hated to see. Some of them were just pains in the butt, but many
> others were good people with really sticky problems. In the back, we would
> groan when we heard their voices because we knew what was coming... and what
> wasn't. We knew there was no more money coming from the customer - he had
> paid for what should have been a repair but the problem was being stubborn -
> so we were usually doing the work under shop warranty. Besides the financial
> side of it was that familiar feeling of hopelessness, the feeling that the
> problem was going to keep coming back no matter what we do. Nice guy - bad
> radio.
>
> Mike
>
>

been there, done that, and there are some real assholes out there [like
me]. but bad diagnosis is not the customer's fault and letting customer
relations get in the way of resolution is a self-fulfilling nightmare.

unless there is a [genuine, not excuse] design issue, there's always a
way. bad components are the manufacturer's problem. bad diagnosis is
the shop's problem. and as the guy that used to get "the hard ones"
that nobody else could solve, i can say that from experience. and more
to the point, there's almost always someone else that's solved the
problem before who's happy to share the info. male ego means most of us
don't ask enough. and that's dumb. and as this forum shows repeatedly,
5 minutes asking the right person can save countless thousands of
dollars and endless time going right to the solution rather than dicking
about and falling into the "replace stuff and hope" trap.

Re: 1986 Honda Accord LXI 2.0 FI
 

Thus spake Tegger <invalid@invalid.inv> :

>jack42038 <jacklarwa@yahoo.com> wrote in news:36902d42-6392-4066-b0e1-
>81594bc55f06@x38g2000yqj.googlegroups.com:
>
>
>>
>> You know, with the internet being such a wealth of information and a
>> multitude of personalities. I can't imagine why I would ever have the
>> need to ask a question where Tegger might possibly answer me again.
>
>
>
>This is Usenet; a thick skin is a Useful thing on Usenet
>
>You are free to ask inane questions, and I am free to blather on in
>answer to them. You can always killfile me, you know. My handle never
>changes, so I should be easy to filter out.
>
>
>
>>
>> You sir are an ass. You seem to take delight in lording your
>> knowledge over others
>
>
>
>I do?

In fact, you are the least of the many asses I have encountered on
Usenet (I sometimes count myself in the other group). As far as
"loreding your knowledge over others", I have never seen that.

>
>You came here looking for answers and I gave answers as best I could.
>What more do you want?
>
>
>
>
>> and I believe it is unconscionable. Not only my
>> posts, but others as well. I saw one recently where you berated a man
>> for not using OEM parts and when he said he would try to replace them,
>> you made a mockery of his statements.
>
>
>
>Because so many people /do/ make such promises and never follow through,
>to their detriment.
>
>I see an awful lot of problems that were caused by the use of
>aftermarket parts and nothing else. My opinion of most aftermarket is
>very low.
>
>Just the other day there was this guy with sticky brakes. Turned out his
>aftermarket front brake rotors had the wrong "hat" height, so the rotors
>were binding against the pad mount bracket.
>
>
>
>
>> I only came here for
>> information and certainly didn't bring this type of attitude with
>> me.
>
>
>
>I think you've got your nose out of joint because I insulted your wheels
>(and possibly also you're mistakenly thinking the "dummies" comment was
>directed at you).
>
>As far as I'm concerned, an engine that has two-thirds of the minimum
>acceptable compression IS "far gone". And when that engine is in a 22
>year-old car with no value beyond basic transportation, well...

A 22 year old car does have some value. As long as you rebuild the
engine, the suspensiion, the brakes and put a cage in it. The it
becomes a nice SCCA IT car. :-)

>
>
>
>>
>> Blessings on you and here is the dust from my feet.
>
>
>
>I'll take the blessings, thanks. You can keep the dust.
--
- dillon I am not invalid

When you wish upon a falling star, your dreams come true.
Unless it's really a meteorite hurtling to the Earth which
will destroy all life. Then you're pretty much hosed no
matter what you wish for. Unless it's death by meteor.

Re: 1986 Honda Accord LXI 2.0 FI
 

Dillon Pyron <invaliddmpyron@austin.rr.com> wrote in
news:605cm4pjga3eifm72k6ard8fvcfq3ncivq@4ax.com:

> Thus spake Tegger <invalid@invalid.inv> :
>
>>jack42038 <jacklarwa@yahoo.com> wrote in news:36902d42-6392-4066-b0e1-
>>81594bc55f06@x38g2000yqj.googlegroups.com:
..
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> You sir are an ass. You seem to take delight in lording your
>>> knowledge over others
>>
>>
>>
>>I do?
>
> In fact, you are the least of the many asses I have encountered on
> Usenet (I sometimes count myself in the other group). As far as
> "loreding your knowledge over others", I have never seen that.




Why, thank you for your kind comments. And thanks also to Elle for the
same.



>>
>>As far as I'm concerned, an engine that has two-thirds of the minimum
>>acceptable compression IS "far gone". And when that engine is in a 22
>>year-old car with no value beyond basic transportation, well...
>
> A 22 year old car does have some value. As long as you rebuild the
> engine, the suspensiion, the brakes and put a cage in it. The it
> becomes a nice SCCA IT car. :-)
>



A very sensible suggestion indeed. At least a fun one, anyway...


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: 1986 Honda Accord LXI 2.0 FI
 

On Jan 8, 8:09 am, jim beam <retard-t...@bad.example.net> wrote:
> Michael Pardee wrote:
> > "jack42038" <jackla...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >news:ffbf764c-8cff-4414-968b-ec41f5770b80@g3g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
> >> The thing that aggravated me (hurt would be a good word too) was the
> >> insinuation that someone would "want me out of their shop". That
> >> stung.
>
> > Please don't take that personally. That sentiment - the hope a customerwill
> > just go away - is common throughout the service industry. It is especially
> > prevalent when a diagnosis is difficult. You will see it very often among
> > doctors (because they typically get paid by insurance only when they can
> > fill in a diagnosis on the form) and often enough among mechanics.
>
> > When I was a service manager in an avionics shop there were several
> > customers I hated to see. Some of them were just pains in the butt, butmany
> > others were good people with really sticky problems. In the back, we would
> > groan when we heard their voices because we knew what was coming... andwhat
> > wasn't. We knew there was no more money coming from the customer - he had
> > paid for what should have been a repair but the problem was being stubborn -
> > so we were usually doing the work under shop warranty. Besides the financial
> > side of it was that familiar feeling of hopelessness, the feeling that the
> > problem was going to keep coming back no matter what we do. Nice guy - bad
> > radio.
>
> > Mike
>
> been there, done that, and there are some real assholes out there [like
> me]. but bad diagnosis is not the customer's fault and letting customer
> relations get in the way of resolution is a self-fulfilling nightmare.
>
> unless there is a [genuine, not excuse] design issue, there's always a
> way. bad components are the manufacturer's problem. bad diagnosis is
> the shop's problem. and as the guy that used to get "the hard ones"
> that nobody else could solve, i can say that from experience. and more
> to the point, there's almost always someone else that's solved the
> problem before who's happy to share the info. male ego means most of us
> don't ask enough. and that's dumb. and as this forum shows repeatedly,
> 5 minutes asking the right person can save countless thousands of
> dollars and endless time going right to the solution rather than dicking
> about and falling into the "replace stuff and hope" trap.

Well, there is certainly plenty of ego to go around. I believe the
very nature of a man who would fix his own vehicle must include some
strong egotistical sentiment. Not that it is bad. I've personally
never done well being told that something cannot be done.

Let us look at this logically again. Yes it is a 22yo vehicle. But
the body and suspension are not rusted away, quite the contrary. The
headlights still flip up with the greatest of ease and the electric
windows work on both sides and both from the driver's side. The
interior is clean, the dash is not heat damaged. There is some
oxidization of the paint on the hood, BUT I live 5 minutes from the
Castle on the Lake (Eddyville State Penitentiary) and for 25$ and the
price of paint I can get the entire body redone. Do those things
contribute to the value of this vehicle and the worth of dropping
another BT or A20A3 in it? If I understand correctly those are the
two definite direct fits that are (more easily) available in the US
market. My son thinks the little Honda is cool. Go figure. He is 19
and has this fixation with things that he considers to be from the
distant past, LOL.

Again, I really mean the apology. I could go into all the other crap
that goes on in my life, and it could well be that I vented in the
wrong direction when I took what Tegger said the wrong way. It was my
fault for taking it so. I usually don't have a hair trigger. I guess
there is a combination of not wanting let my son down and also not
give in and be beaten by a machine. Surely someone understands that?
Should we go into the girlfriend issues as well????

I don't want to replace and hope. I think I am pretty sure that it
would be cheaper to drop a new little engine in there. My mechanic
will either do it for next to nothing or let me use his spare bay and
do it myself for nothing. I will buy him copious quantities of Liquor
and he will be pleased. He's a good guy and I have not wanted to
bother him to death with this thing because I wanted to learn for
myself. His initial diagnosis was, "Um, Junior, I'd just put a new
engine in it before I'd go messing with rings and sh%$, either that or
sell it and see if you can get a little more out of it since you got
it running."

Yes indeed, I am thickheaded, stubborn even. I can detect the same
quality in others as well. Those are not necessarily bad qualities if
tempered with the ability to know when to stop. I haven't spent
1/100th as much on this little Honda as I spent on the Ford Windstar
that was tied around my neck via a car loan for almost 8 years. I
don't have a car loan now, and all of that money is free to go into
either fixing up something or not. My personal car is a 1997 Vanden
Plas with the AJ16. From 95-97 Jag made a model that was not a
mechanic magnet, and then they changed to all V engines and everything
went south again. I bought it outright for one heck of a good deal
and have learned the ins and outs of it. It gets 24mpg on the highway
and 18 in town. I decided a while back that putting money into a new
car was crazy. I doubt I will ever do it again.

I'll stop blathering on. I ask again though, where can I get the BT
or A20A3 for this?

Thanks and Peace!
Jack

Re: 1986 Honda Accord LXI 2.0 FI
 

jack42038 <jacklarwa@yahoo.com> wrote in news:01d78346-d550-4689-95c7-
fc8d7481c952@17g2000vbf.googlegroups.com:

> Let me run this one past you all.
>
> Has anyone heard that in 1986 the camshafts were improperly ground and
> the actual valve lash specs are .20mm IN and .32mm EX?



Valve clearances have nothing to do with the cam's profile, if that's
what you mean.

And even if the cam profile was wrong, this would affect engine
performance (and emissions), not valve clearances. I find it HIGHLY
doubtful Honda would commit such a monumental error as installing
improperly ground cams.

If you actually mean the cam was improperly heat-treated, that's a
different issue entirely. There was such a problem with a short run of
1st-gen CR-Vs and this issue, but there was a TSB out on that one.



>
> That is approximately .03mm above the published max specs from the
> manual. This comes to me from another web personality who says he
> knows this for sure.




What's his proof? A terrible mistake like that would result in a TSB. I
can't find any such TSB.



>
> My question would be this. If the cam was ground wrong, would that
> change the aperture of lash?



No. Valve clearances are set with the cams on their heels, where the
lobe is perfectly round and where there is no contact with the follower.



>
> As it is, my son and I set the valve lash on a very very cold engine
> today and it did indeed cause the whole thing to run smoother,
> however, it did not fix the compression problem. I didn't really
> expect it to, but the lash was way off and needed setting anyways.



That's why adjustment helped, not the extra 0.03mm.



> I
> set it to the top end .17mm and .30mm just in case there was some
> truth to the claim.



Typo? That's the manual's specified max.


>
> In testing the compression again after all of this I do note that the
> plug is not fouled in any way, it looks to be "cooking" nicely just
> like the others. It was shiny around the edge of the point and the
> arm was clean.



Then you've got a good strong spark at the plugs. Has nothing to do with
the compression.



--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: 1986 Honda Accord LXI 2.0 FI
 

jack42038 <jacklarwa@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:c453e7dd-cba8-48b6-8c05-bb88d31eca5f@s20g2000yqh.googlegroups.com:


> I don't want to replace and hope. I think I am pretty sure that it
> would be cheaper to drop a new little engine in there. My mechanic
> will either do it for next to nothing or let me use his spare bay and
> do it myself for nothing.



If the body is unrusted (a HUGE point in favor of the car), and you are
perfectly aware that any money you spend on this ride will not come back
from insurance or from a sale, then go for it! Put in a replacement engine.
If your kid wants to help, that's excellent. He will be FAR less likely to
abuse something he's skinned his knuckes and sweated over.

And if your kid thinks the car's cool, you're up another notch. Let him
think that. I have a daughter. For her, cars come in different colors and
are things you go places in. No interest in them whatever.

I get lots of interest and stare-bys for my Integra, but only from the 20-
somethings, who think my ride is cool. People my own age wonder why I
continue to saddle myself with a car this old.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Re: 1986 Honda Accord LXI 2.0 FI
 

On Jan 9, 5:07 pm, Tegger <inva...@invalid.inv> wrote:

> > set it to the top end .17mm and .30mm just in case there was some
> > truth to the claim.
>
> Typo? That's the manual's specified max.

No, I set at the manual's max which was just within .03mm of the
supposed corrected figures. I figured I would split the difference
and set it to the max spec. That way if there was any truth to this
guy's claim

My son, by the way, will be 20 in February so he's probably one of the
ones that would have turned his head at your car. When I saw this one
on craigslist I knew he would like it.

The money I plan on coming back to me is the money I don't spend in
monthly payments on a new car and monthly payments on full coverage
for a new car and any resultant repairs on a modern vehicle with an
incomprehensible computer system. Money not spent is money not spent.

So, which should I go for, a BT or an A20A3? Where can I get one?
Is there a better option to drop in there?

Thanks
Jack