Jim Yanik

"3rd & Long" <defense@sec.fb> wrote in
news:hcvm58$kbo$1@news.albasani.net:

> "Tegger" <invalid@invalid.inv> wrote in message
> news:Xns9CBA64AD49C93tegger@208.90.168.18...
>> Gene Wagenbreth <genewxxx@isi-OS4> wrote in
>> news:hcsheg$33m@venera.isi.edu:
>>
>>
>> Sure does sound like a sticking thermostat. I'll bet it's crappy
>> aftermarket, too.
>>
>> The heater feed is independent of the thermostat, so it will work
>> even when
>> the engine is cold and the thermostat is closed.
>>
>> Try a new OEM Honda thermostat. About $40 or so and worth every
>> penny.
>>
>
> I doubt Honda manufactures their own thermostats -- instead buying
> them from one of the high quality specialty manufacturers-- as they do
> for so many parts and subassemblies of the car.
>
> Why not just buy a high quality well designed/manufactured aftermarket
> part -- not just some Big Box POS-- and save the extra dough?
>
>
>

how do you KNOW the aftermarket part is "well-designed/manufactured"?
At least with a true Honda part,you know it meets all specs.

Now,if you could find out who is Honda's OEM manufacturer for that part...
then you could go buy it aftermarket.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

Tegger

Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in
news:Xns9CBB50C54A0BDjyaniklocalnetcom@216.168.3.4 4:


>>
>
> how do you KNOW the aftermarket part is "well-designed/manufactured"?
> At least with a true Honda part,you know it meets all specs.



And that makes ALL the difference in the world.

It's why a FRAM oil filter is of excellent quality when purchased with a
blue can and the "Honda" logo on it, but an aftermarket FRAM has a
questionable reputation.


>
> Now,if you could find out who is Honda's OEM manufacturer for that
> part... then you could go buy it aftermarket.
>



Honda thermostats are made by Nippon Thermostat (NTCL).

AFAIK, NTCL is like Showa, in that they do OEM-only. No aftermarket.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

dgk

On Thu, 05 Nov 2009 13:55:28 -0600, "Observer" <none@void.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 05 Nov 2009 13:26:41 -0600, "E. Meyer" <epmeyer50@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On 11/5/09 11:27 AM, in article hcv1ss$lop@venera.isi.edu, "Gene Wagenbreth"
>><genewxxx@isi-OS4> wrote:
>>
>>> Where is the burp screw ? How do you use it ?
>>>
>>> G
>>
>>Look in the vicinity of the top radiator hose connection on the engine for
>>either a small hex head bolt/screw. Set the heater to max, open it a couple
>>of turns until coolant comes out in a steady stream without bubbles. Close
>>the screw, top it off & idle the engine until the radiator fan comes on
>>twice (heater still at max) then open it again (VERY slowly) and let any
>>trapped air out.
>>
>>For the next several days, check & top off the radiator & overflow tank
>>before the first start in the morning & it should get rid of all the air.
>>
>
>
>Is this the same thing as using the drain screw at the bottom of the
>radiator? Not sure if this Honda has one but some cars had it.

No, air goes up. You can't drain air from a system at the bottom.

dgk

On Fri, 6 Nov 2009 03:20:58 +0000 (UTC), Tegger <invalid@invalid.inv>
wrote:

>"3rd & Long" <defense@sec.fb> wrote in
>news:hcvtu0$ukd$1@news.albasani.net:
>
>> "Tegger" <invalid@invalid.inv> wrote in message
>> news:Xns9CBAC85668B89tegger@208.90.168.18...
>>> "3rd & Long" <defense@sec.fb> wrote in
>>> news:hcvm58$kbo$1@news.albasani.net:
>
>>>>
>>>> Why not just buy a high quality well designed/manufactured
>>>> aftermarket part -- not just some Big Box POS-- and save the extra
>>>> dough?
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Because OEM is built to Honda's exacting and stringent specs.
>>> Aftermarket, even from the same manufacturer as the OEM stuff, is
>>> built to be cheap.
>>>
>>> Aftermarket is crap, and aftermarket thermostats are crappy. There is
>>> no acceptably "high quality" aftermarket thermostat available for
>>> Hondas. Anything other than OEM is a step down.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> OK, thanks. You convinced me...
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>You gave in quick.


I replaced the thermostat in my 91 Accord. It still gave me no heat. I
replaced it again, no heat. I gave up and took it to Honda. They
replaced the thermostat. I got heat. I learned my lesson.

Clete

On Fri, 06 Nov 2009 08:31:22 -0500, dgk <dgk@somewhere.com> wrote:

>On Fri, 6 Nov 2009 03:20:58 +0000 (UTC), Tegger <invalid@invalid.inv>
>wrote:
>
>>"3rd & Long" <defense@sec.fb> wrote in
>>news:hcvtu0$ukd$1@news.albasani.net:
>>
>>> "Tegger" <invalid@invalid.inv> wrote in message
>>> news:Xns9CBAC85668B89tegger@208.90.168.18...
>>>> "3rd & Long" <defense@sec.fb> wrote in
>>>> news:hcvm58$kbo$1@news.albasani.net:
>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Why not just buy a high quality well designed/manufactured
>>>>> aftermarket part -- not just some Big Box POS-- and save the extra
>>>>> dough?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Because OEM is built to Honda's exacting and stringent specs.
>>>> Aftermarket, even from the same manufacturer as the OEM stuff, is
>>>> built to be cheap.
>>>>
>>>> Aftermarket is crap, and aftermarket thermostats are crappy. There is
>>>> no acceptably "high quality" aftermarket thermostat available for
>>>> Hondas. Anything other than OEM is a step down.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> OK, thanks. You convinced me...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>You gave in quick.
>
>
>I replaced the thermostat in my 91 Accord. It still gave me no heat. I
>replaced it again, no heat. I gave up and took it to Honda. They
>replaced the thermostat. I got heat. I learned my lesson.


You probably were putting it in upside down to begin with. OEM SchmoEM
, a thermostat is a thermostat. Company A bids on a contract to supply
Honda with them , Honda jacks price by 30% . You are buying the exact
same aftermarket product 9 out of 10 times in most parts.

3rd & Long

"Tegger" <invalid@invalid.inv> wrote in message
news:Xns9CBAE32D9BF8Ategger@208.90.168.18...
> "3rd & Long" <defense@sec.fb> wrote in
> news:hcvtu0$ukd$1@news.albasani.net:
>
>> "Tegger" <invalid@invalid.inv> wrote in message
>> news:Xns9CBAC85668B89tegger@208.90.168.18...
>>> "3rd & Long" <defense@sec.fb> wrote in
>>> news:hcvm58$kbo$1@news.albasani.net:
>
>>>>
>>>> Why not just buy a high quality well designed/manufactured
>>>> aftermarket part -- not just some Big Box POS-- and save the extra
>>>> dough?
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Because OEM is built to Honda's exacting and stringent specs.
>>> Aftermarket, even from the same manufacturer as the OEM stuff, is
>>> built to be cheap.
>>>
>>> Aftermarket is crap, and aftermarket thermostats are crappy. There is
>>> no acceptably "high quality" aftermarket thermostat available for
>>> Hondas. Anything other than OEM is a step down.
>>>
>>
>> OK, thanks. You convinced me...
>>
>>
>
> You gave in quick.
>
>

It may appear that way to you, Grasshopper-- but I live my life in harmony
with the teachings of the great Western poet/philosopher Kenny Rogers:

"You gotta know when to hold 'em and know when to fold 'em..."

E. Meyer

On 11/5/09 1:55 PM, in article csa6f59o71r44rgmk39ndjanmnrtgqm7pf@4ax.com,
"Observer" <none@void.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 05 Nov 2009 13:26:41 -0600, "E. Meyer" <epmeyer50@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 11/5/09 11:27 AM, in article hcv1ss$lop@venera.isi.edu, "Gene Wagenbreth"
>> <genewxxx@isi-OS4> wrote:
>>
>>> Where is the burp screw ? How do you use it ?
>>>
>>> G
>>
>> Look in the vicinity of the top radiator hose connection on the engine for
>> either a small hex head bolt/screw. Set the heater to max, open it a couple
>> of turns until coolant comes out in a steady stream without bubbles. Close
>> the screw, top it off & idle the engine until the radiator fan comes on
>> twice (heater still at max) then open it again (VERY slowly) and let any
>> trapped air out.
>>
>> For the next several days, check & top off the radiator & overflow tank
>> before the first start in the morning & it should get rid of all the air.
>>
>
>
> Is this the same thing as using the drain screw at the bottom of the
> radiator? Not sure if this Honda has one but some cars had it.

Absolutely not! We're talking about a screw on the top of the engine to let
the air bubbles out.

Tegger

Clete <lecllaij@halifax.ca> wrote in
news:ne98f5pfe7kevk6i89h78vsa278f4lgmuu@4ax.com:


> OEM SchmoEM, a thermostat is a thermostat. Company A bids on a
> contract to supply Honda with them , Honda jacks price by 30% . You
> are buying the exact same aftermarket product 9 out of 10 times in
> most parts.
>


O, ye of little experience!



--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Clete

On Fri, 6 Nov 2009 18:25:33 +0000 (UTC), Tegger <invalid@invalid.inv>
wrote:

>Clete <lecllaij@halifax.ca> wrote in
>news:ne98f5pfe7kevk6i89h78vsa278f4lgmuu@4ax.com :
>
>
>> OEM SchmoEM, a thermostat is a thermostat. Company A bids on a
>> contract to supply Honda with them , Honda jacks price by 30% . You
>> are buying the exact same aftermarket product 9 out of 10 times in
>> most parts.
>>
>
>
>O, ye of little experience!


I am open for proof. I will humbly apologize if proven wrong.
Sometimes I feel a couple of people in this group either work for or
own a dealership. Hence the OEM rhetoric.

Seth

"Clete" <lecllaij@halifax.ca> wrote in message
news:d1s8f51g44cde9iansrcihiak2gijb30j0@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 6 Nov 2009 18:25:33 +0000 (UTC), Tegger <invalid@invalid.inv>
> wrote:
>
>>Clete <lecllaij@halifax.ca> wrote in
>>news:ne98f5pfe7kevk6i89h78vsa278f4lgmuu@4ax.co m:
>>
>>
>>> OEM SchmoEM, a thermostat is a thermostat. Company A bids on a
>>> contract to supply Honda with them , Honda jacks price by 30% . You
>>> are buying the exact same aftermarket product 9 out of 10 times in
>>> most parts.
>>>
>>
>>
>>O, ye of little experience!
>
>
> I am open for proof. I will humbly apologize if proven wrong.
> Sometimes I feel a couple of people in this group either work for or
> own a dealership. Hence the OEM rhetoric.


When OEM SchomoEM is making them for sale to the public, they can make them
as cheaply as they want to maximize profit. When making them for Honda,
they have to follow specific standards per their contract with Honda which
may (and usually is) better than the minimum to maximize profit. Honda
doesn't want to let a cheap part ruin the reputation of the car line.

Yup, often times that OEM part will be more expensive than the 3rd party
equivalent. But it's still a tiny fraction of the over all cost of the car
and most times not worth the hassle.

I bought my Hondas for reliability. I'm not going to jeopardize that with a
weak link.

Clete

On Fri, 6 Nov 2009 14:24:46 -0500, "Seth"
<seth_lermanNOSPAM@hotmail.com> wrote:

>"Clete" <lecllaij@halifax.ca> wrote in message
>news:d1s8f51g44cde9iansrcihiak2gijb30j0@4ax.com.. .
>> On Fri, 6 Nov 2009 18:25:33 +0000 (UTC), Tegger <invalid@invalid.inv>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Clete <lecllaij@halifax.ca> wrote in
>>>news:ne98f5pfe7kevk6i89h78vsa278f4lgmuu@4ax.com :
>>>
>>>
>>>> OEM SchmoEM, a thermostat is a thermostat. Company A bids on a
>>>> contract to supply Honda with them , Honda jacks price by 30% . You
>>>> are buying the exact same aftermarket product 9 out of 10 times in
>>>> most parts.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>O, ye of little experience!
>>
>>
>> I am open for proof. I will humbly apologize if proven wrong.
>> Sometimes I feel a couple of people in this group either work for or
>> own a dealership. Hence the OEM rhetoric.
>
>
>When OEM SchomoEM is making them for sale to the public, they can make them
>as cheaply as they want to maximize profit. When making them for Honda,
>they have to follow specific standards per their contract with Honda which
>may (and usually is) better than the minimum to maximize profit. Honda
>doesn't want to let a cheap part ruin the reputation of the car line.
>
>Yup, often times that OEM part will be more expensive than the 3rd party
>equivalent. But it's still a tiny fraction of the over all cost of the car
>and most times not worth the hassle.
>
>I bought my Hondas for reliability. I'm not going to jeopardize that with a
>weak link.


Do you really think a company retools their production line to
produce 2 different quality parts ? Give your head a shake.

Tegger

Clete <lecllaij@halifax.ca> wrote in
news:bau8f5h7jsb47pfut25asu7929u1qmt8cq@4ax.com:


>
>
> Do you really think a company retools their production line to
> produce 2 different quality parts?



Yes! All the time!

They usually cannot use the same line to produce parts for the aftermarket.
They are usually not allowed by the terms of the contract.

All the gauges and jigs that are used to confirm fit are the property of
the automaker (it even says so right on them). Plus they are also
ordinarily not allowed to use the automaker's CAD files or working drawings
for their aftermarket part.

This means that companies that do aftermarket parts as well as OEM may need
to use employees with no exposure to the OEM data. Those employees need to
reverse-engineer an actual OEM part to arrive at the necessary information
to be able to produce their aftermarket part, making a lot of guesses in
the process.

There are some exceptions, of course. Sometimes the automaker will allow
the supplier to sell their own version of the part which is just about
identical to OEM, but without the automaker's name on it. The supplier in
those cases will often cheapen the part a bit in order to help make a
margin on the part (which won't sell for the same as OEM!). Less expensive
polymers, smaller bearings, looser tolerances, that sort of thing.

The primary problem for aftermarket is that OEM development and tooling is
created with minimum 3-year warranties and high-volume production in mind.
The aftermarket operates on far lower volumes, and usually competes on
price and not quality. This leaves much less in the way of resources to,
for instance, send molds and stamping dies back over and over again until
they are "just so". For OEM, getting a tool "just so" can literally take
months of expensive revisions. Aftermarket just hasn't got the money for
that.

And there are many companies that Honda buys parts from which do not sell
to the aftermarket at all. I believe NTCL is one of those.



--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Seth

"Clete" <lecllaij@halifax.ca> wrote in message
news:bau8f5h7jsb47pfut25asu7929u1qmt8cq@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 6 Nov 2009 14:24:46 -0500, "Seth"
> <seth_lermanNOSPAM@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>"Clete" <lecllaij@halifax.ca> wrote in message
>>news:d1s8f51g44cde9iansrcihiak2gijb30j0@4ax.com. ..
>>> On Fri, 6 Nov 2009 18:25:33 +0000 (UTC), Tegger <invalid@invalid.inv>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Clete <lecllaij@halifax.ca> wrote in
>>>>news:ne98f5pfe7kevk6i89h78vsa278f4lgmuu@4ax.co m:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> OEM SchmoEM, a thermostat is a thermostat. Company A bids on a
>>>>> contract to supply Honda with them , Honda jacks price by 30% . You
>>>>> are buying the exact same aftermarket product 9 out of 10 times in
>>>>> most parts.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>O, ye of little experience!
>>>
>>>
>>> I am open for proof. I will humbly apologize if proven wrong.
>>> Sometimes I feel a couple of people in this group either work for or
>>> own a dealership. Hence the OEM rhetoric.
>>
>>
>>When OEM SchomoEM is making them for sale to the public, they can make
>>them
>>as cheaply as they want to maximize profit. When making them for Honda,
>>they have to follow specific standards per their contract with Honda which
>>may (and usually is) better than the minimum to maximize profit. Honda
>>doesn't want to let a cheap part ruin the reputation of the car line.
>>
>>Yup, often times that OEM part will be more expensive than the 3rd party
>>equivalent. But it's still a tiny fraction of the over all cost of the
>>car
>>and most times not worth the hassle.
>>
>>I bought my Hondas for reliability. I'm not going to jeopardize that with
>>a
>>weak link.
>
> Do you really think a company retools their production line to
> produce 2 different quality parts ? Give your head a shake.


Sure do. Could be to produce the 3rd party product at a lower manufacturing
cost to increase profit or to satisfy a contractual obligation on behalf of
the OEM (like Honda) they produce the OEM product for.

It's called business.

Tegger

Clete <lecllaij@halifax.ca> wrote in
news:d1s8f51g44cde9iansrcihiak2gijb30j0@4ax.com:

> On Fri, 6 Nov 2009 18:25:33 +0000 (UTC), Tegger <invalid@invalid.inv>
> wrote:
>
>>Clete <lecllaij@halifax.ca> wrote in
>>news:ne98f5pfe7kevk6i89h78vsa278f4lgmuu@4ax.co m:
>>
>>
>>> OEM SchmoEM, a thermostat is a thermostat. Company A bids on a
>>> contract to supply Honda with them , Honda jacks price by 30% . You
>>> are buying the exact same aftermarket product 9 out of 10 times in
>>> most parts.
>>>
>>
>>
>>O, ye of little experience!
>
>
> I am open for proof. I will humbly apologize if proven wrong.
> Sometimes I feel a couple of people in this group either work for or
> own a dealership. Hence the OEM rhetoric.
>


I have no connection with Honda, any of its regional subsidiaries, or with
any dealership.

My strong preference for OEM parts is due simply to my very many poor
experiences with aftermarket parts, and the exact opposite with OEM.

The aftermarket's "Worst of" list consists primarily of these areas:
Ignition
Fuel
Filtration
Exhaust
Cooling system
Brakes
Body parts
Lighting


There are a few aftermarket parts I don't have a problem with. Radiators,
for one example. Aftermarket tends to be just about as good quality as OEM,
and for a third the price. Windshield glass is another example. Again,
similar quality to OEM at a third the price. But pretty much everything
else is a poor second to OEM.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

JRE

Tegger wrote:
<snip>
> The primary problem for aftermarket is that OEM development and tooling is
> created with minimum 3-year warranties and high-volume production in mind.
> The aftermarket operates on far lower volumes, and usually competes on
> price and not quality. This leaves much less in the way of resources to,
> for instance, send molds and stamping dies back over and over again until
> they are "just so". For OEM, getting a tool "just so" can literally take
> months of expensive revisions. Aftermarket just hasn't got the money for
> that.
<snip>

IMO, the question becomes where one chooses to draw the line. For many
parts I will not settle for less than OEM. For others, I will go
aftermarket without a second thought. I have yet to have a problem with
a decent aftermarket thermostat that I haven't had with an OEM
thermostat, and the both seem to last about the same length of time. In
fact, I seem to recall that the thermostat in my 1991 Accord is a
decade-or-so-old aftermarket one, and it works just fine. Cheap ones
are pretty obviously cheap ones, and I don't use them unless there is no
choice (and then I plan to replace them quickly).

Maybe I've been lucky, but I have been working on cars for a long time
(and did so professionally for a few years when I was in my 20's, which
was a Long Time ago), and this is not a one-off experience.

Honda's OEM quality is not always impeccable, either. I'm not sure how
many exhaust pipes I've replaced over the years on my '91 but the dealer
did the first one under warranty (!) and decent aftermarket (e.g.,
Bosal) pipes last easily as long as the Honda ones at a lower price.
There is likewise no reason I can discern to buy Honda brake pads or
rotors or axles. Honda electrical parts of this vintage are prone to
cold solder joints over time, and I don't know whether they ever
re-spec'ed the solder or procedures to fix that, but I do know that
things like aftermarket alternators and starters (and I have seen a cold
solder joint in an original OEM Honda starter that I repaired by
reflowing it) have proved quite reliable.

The local dealer is very cooperative in being competitive for most parts
with aftermarket prices, so as it happens I usually buy OEM for the
Accord (and did likewise for the '90 Civic) but I am not wedded to the
notion that all OEM parts are substantially superior to all aftermarket
parts, as it's simply not the case in my experience.

--
JRE