Re: Holy crap people are misinformed
Randolph,
After reading your post and thinking a little, I am inclined to agree with your logic. However, based on that logic, HOW would someone increase the actual compression ratio, since the volume of air/fuel inside the cylinder does not change the ratio? Enquiring minds would like to know! ;-) Jonathan P.S. for Jim Yanik: The reason why I am inclined to agree with Randolph is this: Say your compression ratio is 10:1, you put ten "units" of air/fuel mixture in the cylinder. It will be compressed to 1/10 of it's original "size" (volume) upon combustion. If you put in 20 "units", it will be compressed to a 20:2 ratio, which reduces back to 10:1. 30:3 reduces to 10:1, and so forth. More "units" just causes a more powerful combustion, creating more pressure to push the piston down more forcefully. "Randolph" <trash@junkmail.com> wrote in message news:4134EC5B.36FE2C33@junkmail.com... > > Jim Yanik wrote: >> >> Randolph <trash@junkmail.com> wrote in >> news:4134C5B2.3C9F8D72@junkmail.com: >> >> Sure it does.Compression ratio is the ratio of the volume of the cylinder >> at BDC(bottom dead center) to volume at TDC. When you FORCE more air/fuel >> mix into the cylinder,you effectively enlarge the volume at BDC(it acts >> like a more voluminous cylinder),compressing down to the unchanged >> original >> volume at TDC,thus increasing the compression ratio. >> >> That's why turbos and superchargers use higher octane gasoline,because of >> the effective higher compression ratio. > > Nope, the compression ratio is, as you said, the ratio of the volume of > the cylinder > at BDC(bottom dead center) to volume at TDC. Absolute pressure, mass of > air, etc. makes no difference. If I keep my foot off the throttle, I > draw a moderate vacuum in the cylinder on the intake stroke, and get a > relatively low pressure on the compression stroke, but the compression > ratio is the same no matter the position of the throttle. The > compression ratio is purely a function of the engine geometry. When > turbo charged engine typically require premium fuel, it is because the > *pressure* is high, not because the compression ratio is high. |
Re: Holy crap people are misinformed
"Randolph" <trash@junkmail.com> wrote in message news:4134EC5B.36FE2C33@junkmail.com... > > Jim Yanik wrote: >> >> Randolph <trash@junkmail.com> wrote in >> news:4134C5B2.3C9F8D72@junkmail.com: >> >> Sure it does.Compression ratio is the ratio of the volume of the cylinder >> at BDC(bottom dead center) to volume at TDC. When you FORCE more air/fuel >> mix into the cylinder,you effectively enlarge the volume at BDC(it acts >> like a more voluminous cylinder),compressing down to the unchanged >> original >> volume at TDC,thus increasing the compression ratio. >> >> That's why turbos and superchargers use higher octane gasoline,because of >> the effective higher compression ratio. > > Nope, the compression ratio is, as you said, the ratio of the volume of > the cylinder > at BDC(bottom dead center) to volume at TDC. Absolute pressure, mass of > air, etc. makes no difference. If I keep my foot off the throttle, I > draw a moderate vacuum in the cylinder on the intake stroke, and get a > relatively low pressure on the compression stroke, but the compression > ratio is the same no matter the position of the throttle. The > compression ratio is purely a function of the engine geometry. When > turbo charged engine typically require premium fuel, it is because the > *pressure* is high, not because the compression ratio is high. Or cams with lots of overlap....high BMEP. |
Re: Holy crap people are misinformed
"Randolph" <trash@junkmail.com> wrote in message news:4134EC5B.36FE2C33@junkmail.com... > > Jim Yanik wrote: >> >> Randolph <trash@junkmail.com> wrote in >> news:4134C5B2.3C9F8D72@junkmail.com: >> >> Sure it does.Compression ratio is the ratio of the volume of the cylinder >> at BDC(bottom dead center) to volume at TDC. When you FORCE more air/fuel >> mix into the cylinder,you effectively enlarge the volume at BDC(it acts >> like a more voluminous cylinder),compressing down to the unchanged >> original >> volume at TDC,thus increasing the compression ratio. >> >> That's why turbos and superchargers use higher octane gasoline,because of >> the effective higher compression ratio. > > Nope, the compression ratio is, as you said, the ratio of the volume of > the cylinder > at BDC(bottom dead center) to volume at TDC. Absolute pressure, mass of > air, etc. makes no difference. If I keep my foot off the throttle, I > draw a moderate vacuum in the cylinder on the intake stroke, and get a > relatively low pressure on the compression stroke, but the compression > ratio is the same no matter the position of the throttle. The > compression ratio is purely a function of the engine geometry. When > turbo charged engine typically require premium fuel, it is because the > *pressure* is high, not because the compression ratio is high. Or cams with lots of overlap....high BMEP. |
Re: Holy crap people are misinformed
K-town wrote: > > Randolph, > > After reading your post and thinking a little, I am inclined to agree > with your logic. However, based on that logic, HOW would someone increase > the actual compression ratio, since the volume of air/fuel inside the > cylinder does not change the ratio? Enquiring minds would like to know! ;-) To put some numbers on it, let's say you have a 1.6 liter, 4 cylinder engine with a 9:1 compression ratio. Let's assume the bore to be about 80 mm and the stroke to be about 80 mm. That would give you a 0.4 l displacement pr. cylinder. At bottom dead center, the total volume above the piston would be 0.45 liter. At top dead center the volume above the piston would be 0.05 liter. Now, let's say you grind down the bottom side of the head 2 millimeters and stick it back on. This does not change the displacement. It does decrease the volume above the cylinder by about 0.01 liter, so at top dead center there would be 0.04 liter, and at bottom dead center you would get 0.44 liter. Now the compression ratio has increased to 0.44 / .0.4 = 11. If you somehow could move the crankshaft up or down with respect to the cylinders, you would also vary the compression ratio. This is just what Saab did a few years back. See http://www.edmunds.com/news/innovati...7/article.html |
Re: Holy crap people are misinformed
K-town wrote: > > Randolph, > > After reading your post and thinking a little, I am inclined to agree > with your logic. However, based on that logic, HOW would someone increase > the actual compression ratio, since the volume of air/fuel inside the > cylinder does not change the ratio? Enquiring minds would like to know! ;-) To put some numbers on it, let's say you have a 1.6 liter, 4 cylinder engine with a 9:1 compression ratio. Let's assume the bore to be about 80 mm and the stroke to be about 80 mm. That would give you a 0.4 l displacement pr. cylinder. At bottom dead center, the total volume above the piston would be 0.45 liter. At top dead center the volume above the piston would be 0.05 liter. Now, let's say you grind down the bottom side of the head 2 millimeters and stick it back on. This does not change the displacement. It does decrease the volume above the cylinder by about 0.01 liter, so at top dead center there would be 0.04 liter, and at bottom dead center you would get 0.44 liter. Now the compression ratio has increased to 0.44 / .0.4 = 11. If you somehow could move the crankshaft up or down with respect to the cylinders, you would also vary the compression ratio. This is just what Saab did a few years back. See http://www.edmunds.com/news/innovati...7/article.html |
Re: Holy crap people are misinformed
"K-town" <jdu52580@carolina.rr.com> wrote in
news:7n7Zc.3680$683.455808@twister.southeast.rr.co m: > Randolph, > > After reading your post and thinking a little, I am inclined to > agree > with your logic. However, based on that logic, HOW would someone > increase the actual compression ratio, since the volume of air/fuel > inside the cylinder does not change the ratio? Enquiring minds would > like to know! ;-) > > Jonathan > > P.S. for Jim Yanik: The reason why I am inclined to agree with > Randolph is this: Say your compression ratio is 10:1, you put ten > "units" of air/fuel mixture in the cylinder. It will be compressed to > 1/10 of it's original "size" (volume) upon combustion. If you put in > 20 "units", it will be compressed to a 20:2 ratio, which reduces back > to 10:1. 30:3 reduces to 10:1, and so forth. More "units" just > causes a more powerful combustion, creating more pressure to push the > piston down more forcefully. > > "Randolph" <trash@junkmail.com> wrote in message > news:4134EC5B.36FE2C33@junkmail.com... >> >> Jim Yanik wrote: >>> >>> Randolph <trash@junkmail.com> wrote in >>> news:4134C5B2.3C9F8D72@junkmail.com: >>> >>> Sure it does.Compression ratio is the ratio of the volume of the >>> cylinder at BDC(bottom dead center) to volume at TDC. When you FORCE >>> more air/fuel mix into the cylinder,you effectively enlarge the >>> volume at BDC(it acts like a more voluminous cylinder),compressing >>> down to the unchanged original >>> volume at TDC,thus increasing the compression ratio. >>> >>> That's why turbos and superchargers use higher octane >>> gasoline,because of the effective higher compression ratio. >> >> Nope, the compression ratio is, as you said, the ratio of the volume >> of the cylinder >> at BDC(bottom dead center) to volume at TDC. Absolute pressure, mass >> of air, etc. makes no difference. If I keep my foot off the throttle, >> I draw a moderate vacuum in the cylinder on the intake stroke, and >> get a relatively low pressure on the compression stroke, but the >> compression ratio is the same no matter the position of the throttle. >> The compression ratio is purely a function of the engine geometry. >> When turbo charged engine typically require premium fuel, it is >> because the *pressure* is high, not because the compression ratio is >> high. > > > > Intake compression by turbo or supercharger is just raising the comp ratio by external means,a variable compression ratio.(that's what I meant by "effective".) Just milling the head(s) of a natually aspirated motor of the same displacement gives more HP and torque.All that changes is the comp ratio. Otherwise,why mill heads? All it would do is require a more- expensive,higher octane fuel. -- Jim Yanik jyanik-at-kua.net |
Re: Holy crap people are misinformed
"K-town" <jdu52580@carolina.rr.com> wrote in
news:7n7Zc.3680$683.455808@twister.southeast.rr.co m: > Randolph, > > After reading your post and thinking a little, I am inclined to > agree > with your logic. However, based on that logic, HOW would someone > increase the actual compression ratio, since the volume of air/fuel > inside the cylinder does not change the ratio? Enquiring minds would > like to know! ;-) > > Jonathan > > P.S. for Jim Yanik: The reason why I am inclined to agree with > Randolph is this: Say your compression ratio is 10:1, you put ten > "units" of air/fuel mixture in the cylinder. It will be compressed to > 1/10 of it's original "size" (volume) upon combustion. If you put in > 20 "units", it will be compressed to a 20:2 ratio, which reduces back > to 10:1. 30:3 reduces to 10:1, and so forth. More "units" just > causes a more powerful combustion, creating more pressure to push the > piston down more forcefully. > > "Randolph" <trash@junkmail.com> wrote in message > news:4134EC5B.36FE2C33@junkmail.com... >> >> Jim Yanik wrote: >>> >>> Randolph <trash@junkmail.com> wrote in >>> news:4134C5B2.3C9F8D72@junkmail.com: >>> >>> Sure it does.Compression ratio is the ratio of the volume of the >>> cylinder at BDC(bottom dead center) to volume at TDC. When you FORCE >>> more air/fuel mix into the cylinder,you effectively enlarge the >>> volume at BDC(it acts like a more voluminous cylinder),compressing >>> down to the unchanged original >>> volume at TDC,thus increasing the compression ratio. >>> >>> That's why turbos and superchargers use higher octane >>> gasoline,because of the effective higher compression ratio. >> >> Nope, the compression ratio is, as you said, the ratio of the volume >> of the cylinder >> at BDC(bottom dead center) to volume at TDC. Absolute pressure, mass >> of air, etc. makes no difference. If I keep my foot off the throttle, >> I draw a moderate vacuum in the cylinder on the intake stroke, and >> get a relatively low pressure on the compression stroke, but the >> compression ratio is the same no matter the position of the throttle. >> The compression ratio is purely a function of the engine geometry. >> When turbo charged engine typically require premium fuel, it is >> because the *pressure* is high, not because the compression ratio is >> high. > > > > Intake compression by turbo or supercharger is just raising the comp ratio by external means,a variable compression ratio.(that's what I meant by "effective".) Just milling the head(s) of a natually aspirated motor of the same displacement gives more HP and torque.All that changes is the comp ratio. Otherwise,why mill heads? All it would do is require a more- expensive,higher octane fuel. -- Jim Yanik jyanik-at-kua.net |
Re: Holy crap people are misinformed
Jim Yanik wrote: > Intake compression by turbo or supercharger is just raising the comp ratio > by external means,a variable compression ratio.(that's what I meant by > "effective".) NO! Turbos do not increase the *compression ratio*, turbos increase the pressure! Variable pressure, yes. Variable compression ratio, no. The term "compression ratio" is well defined, and reaaly is not open for interpretation. |
Re: Holy crap people are misinformed
Jim Yanik wrote: > Intake compression by turbo or supercharger is just raising the comp ratio > by external means,a variable compression ratio.(that's what I meant by > "effective".) NO! Turbos do not increase the *compression ratio*, turbos increase the pressure! Variable pressure, yes. Variable compression ratio, no. The term "compression ratio" is well defined, and reaaly is not open for interpretation. |
Re: Holy crap people are misinformed
On Wed, 1 Sep 2004 01:37:11 +0000 (UTC), Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov>
wrote: >"K-town" <jdu52580@carolina.rr.com> wrote in >news:7n7Zc.3680$683.455808@twister.southeast.rr.c om: > >> Randolph, >> >> After reading your post and thinking a little, I am inclined to >> agree >> with your logic. However, based on that logic, HOW would someone >> increase the actual compression ratio, since the volume of air/fuel >> inside the cylinder does not change the ratio? Enquiring minds would >> like to know! ;-) >> >> Jonathan >> >> P.S. for Jim Yanik: The reason why I am inclined to agree with >> Randolph is this: Say your compression ratio is 10:1, you put ten >> "units" of air/fuel mixture in the cylinder. It will be compressed to >> 1/10 of it's original "size" (volume) upon combustion. If you put in >> 20 "units", it will be compressed to a 20:2 ratio, which reduces back >> to 10:1. 30:3 reduces to 10:1, and so forth. More "units" just >> causes a more powerful combustion, creating more pressure to push the >> piston down more forcefully. No. >> "Randolph" <trash@junkmail.com> wrote in message >> news:4134EC5B.36FE2C33@junkmail.com... >>> >>> Jim Yanik wrote: >>>> >>>> Randolph <trash@junkmail.com> wrote in >>>> news:4134C5B2.3C9F8D72@junkmail.com: >>>> >>>> Sure it does.Compression ratio is the ratio of the volume of the >>>> cylinder at BDC(bottom dead center) to volume at TDC. When you FORCE >>>> more air/fuel mix into the cylinder,you effectively enlarge the >>>> volume at BDC(it acts like a more voluminous cylinder),compressing >>>> down to the unchanged original >>>> volume at TDC,thus increasing the compression ratio. >>>> >>>> That's why turbos and superchargers use higher octane >>>> gasoline,because of the effective higher compression ratio. >>> >>> Nope, the compression ratio is, as you said, the ratio of the volume >>> of the cylinder >>> at BDC(bottom dead center) to volume at TDC. Absolute pressure, mass >>> of air, etc. makes no difference. If I keep my foot off the throttle, >>> I draw a moderate vacuum in the cylinder on the intake stroke, and >>> get a relatively low pressure on the compression stroke, but the >>> compression ratio is the same no matter the position of the throttle. >>> The compression ratio is purely a function of the engine geometry. >>> When turbo charged engine typically require premium fuel, it is >>> because the *pressure* is high, not because the compression ratio is >>> high. > >Intake compression by turbo or supercharger is just raising the comp ratio >by external means,a variable compression ratio.(that's what I meant by >"effective".) No. >Just milling the head(s) of a natually aspirated motor of the same >displacement gives more HP and torque.All that changes is the comp ratio. >Otherwise,why mill heads? All it would do is require a more- >expensive,higher octane fuel. No... No, No, No. Assume the idealized hypothetical where the full volume of a cylinder full of fuel-air mixtures is at 1 atmosphere pressure as the valves close and the piston begins its compression stroke; the compression ratio is determined by dividing the volume of the cylinder at TDC (say 40cc) by the volume of the cylinder at BDC (say 400cc). Now assume a circumstance where a turbo charger or supercharger has filled the same cylinder, just as the valves close and the piston begins its compression stroke, with fuel-air mixture at 2 atmospheres pressure; the compression ratio is still determined by dividing the volume of the cylinder at TDC (still 40cc) by the volume of the cylinder at BDC (still 400cc). No change in compression ratio, no mysterious "units". - So why more power from turbo/super charging? Basic physical chemistry: At constant volume and temperature there will be twice as much fuel and air in the cylinder at twice the pressure. (The Ideal Gas Law: PV=nRT, where P,V,T, and n are Pressure, Volume, Temperature, and amount of the gas with R as the gas constant.) & Simple thermodynamics: Twice the fuel-air - "twice" the power. - Why does increased compression ratio yield increased power? Basic combustion science: The greater the density and temperature of the fuel-air charge, the more efficiently it burns. |
Re: Holy crap people are misinformed
On Wed, 1 Sep 2004 01:37:11 +0000 (UTC), Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov>
wrote: >"K-town" <jdu52580@carolina.rr.com> wrote in >news:7n7Zc.3680$683.455808@twister.southeast.rr.c om: > >> Randolph, >> >> After reading your post and thinking a little, I am inclined to >> agree >> with your logic. However, based on that logic, HOW would someone >> increase the actual compression ratio, since the volume of air/fuel >> inside the cylinder does not change the ratio? Enquiring minds would >> like to know! ;-) >> >> Jonathan >> >> P.S. for Jim Yanik: The reason why I am inclined to agree with >> Randolph is this: Say your compression ratio is 10:1, you put ten >> "units" of air/fuel mixture in the cylinder. It will be compressed to >> 1/10 of it's original "size" (volume) upon combustion. If you put in >> 20 "units", it will be compressed to a 20:2 ratio, which reduces back >> to 10:1. 30:3 reduces to 10:1, and so forth. More "units" just >> causes a more powerful combustion, creating more pressure to push the >> piston down more forcefully. No. >> "Randolph" <trash@junkmail.com> wrote in message >> news:4134EC5B.36FE2C33@junkmail.com... >>> >>> Jim Yanik wrote: >>>> >>>> Randolph <trash@junkmail.com> wrote in >>>> news:4134C5B2.3C9F8D72@junkmail.com: >>>> >>>> Sure it does.Compression ratio is the ratio of the volume of the >>>> cylinder at BDC(bottom dead center) to volume at TDC. When you FORCE >>>> more air/fuel mix into the cylinder,you effectively enlarge the >>>> volume at BDC(it acts like a more voluminous cylinder),compressing >>>> down to the unchanged original >>>> volume at TDC,thus increasing the compression ratio. >>>> >>>> That's why turbos and superchargers use higher octane >>>> gasoline,because of the effective higher compression ratio. >>> >>> Nope, the compression ratio is, as you said, the ratio of the volume >>> of the cylinder >>> at BDC(bottom dead center) to volume at TDC. Absolute pressure, mass >>> of air, etc. makes no difference. If I keep my foot off the throttle, >>> I draw a moderate vacuum in the cylinder on the intake stroke, and >>> get a relatively low pressure on the compression stroke, but the >>> compression ratio is the same no matter the position of the throttle. >>> The compression ratio is purely a function of the engine geometry. >>> When turbo charged engine typically require premium fuel, it is >>> because the *pressure* is high, not because the compression ratio is >>> high. > >Intake compression by turbo or supercharger is just raising the comp ratio >by external means,a variable compression ratio.(that's what I meant by >"effective".) No. >Just milling the head(s) of a natually aspirated motor of the same >displacement gives more HP and torque.All that changes is the comp ratio. >Otherwise,why mill heads? All it would do is require a more- >expensive,higher octane fuel. No... No, No, No. Assume the idealized hypothetical where the full volume of a cylinder full of fuel-air mixtures is at 1 atmosphere pressure as the valves close and the piston begins its compression stroke; the compression ratio is determined by dividing the volume of the cylinder at TDC (say 40cc) by the volume of the cylinder at BDC (say 400cc). Now assume a circumstance where a turbo charger or supercharger has filled the same cylinder, just as the valves close and the piston begins its compression stroke, with fuel-air mixture at 2 atmospheres pressure; the compression ratio is still determined by dividing the volume of the cylinder at TDC (still 40cc) by the volume of the cylinder at BDC (still 400cc). No change in compression ratio, no mysterious "units". - So why more power from turbo/super charging? Basic physical chemistry: At constant volume and temperature there will be twice as much fuel and air in the cylinder at twice the pressure. (The Ideal Gas Law: PV=nRT, where P,V,T, and n are Pressure, Volume, Temperature, and amount of the gas with R as the gas constant.) & Simple thermodynamics: Twice the fuel-air - "twice" the power. - Why does increased compression ratio yield increased power? Basic combustion science: The greater the density and temperature of the fuel-air charge, the more efficiently it burns. |
Re: Holy crap people are misinformed
<snip>
> > No change in compression ratio, no mysterious "units". > <snip> The reason why I said "units" is because you could use any method of measurement you like; English or Metric. Most use metric, so you would use milliliters (or cubic centimeters; 1mL = 1cc) of fuel & air. But if someone wanted to use cubic inches, the same mathematical formula would be used to calculate the ratio and/or pressure. |
Re: Holy crap people are misinformed
<snip>
> > No change in compression ratio, no mysterious "units". > <snip> The reason why I said "units" is because you could use any method of measurement you like; English or Metric. Most use metric, so you would use milliliters (or cubic centimeters; 1mL = 1cc) of fuel & air. But if someone wanted to use cubic inches, the same mathematical formula would be used to calculate the ratio and/or pressure. |
Re: Holy crap people are misinformed
On Wed, 01 Sep 2004 13:06:06 GMT, "K-town" <jdu52580@carolina.rr.com>
wrote: ><snip> >> >> No change in compression ratio, no mysterious "units". >> ><snip> > >The reason why I said "units" is because you could use any method of >measurement you like; English or Metric. Most use metric, so you would use >milliliters (or cubic centimeters; 1mL = 1cc) of fuel & air. But if someone >wanted to use cubic inches, the same mathematical formula would be used to >calculate the ratio and/or pressure. Yeah... I'm not buying it. You claimed a turbocharger will double the number of "units" of volume in a cylinder: That is patently false and incorrect. Whether measured in cc, ci, cubic fish eyes or ping pong balls; the swept volume of a cylinder, the volume of the combustion chamber, and thereby the compression ratio, all are rigidly fixed in any production automobile and cannot be varied without major mechanical modification. A turbo/supercharger only increases the pressure of the fuel-air mixture in the quite fixed maximum volume of a cylinder. By increasing the pressure of the air-fuel mixture the density is increased, resulting in an increase in the amount of fuel and air available for combustion. PV=nRT. It's perhaps the primary physical law. The swept volume stays quite constant, the combustion chamber volume stays quite constant, the compression ratio stays quite constant: It is NOT rocket surgery. |
Re: Holy crap people are misinformed
On Wed, 01 Sep 2004 13:06:06 GMT, "K-town" <jdu52580@carolina.rr.com>
wrote: ><snip> >> >> No change in compression ratio, no mysterious "units". >> ><snip> > >The reason why I said "units" is because you could use any method of >measurement you like; English or Metric. Most use metric, so you would use >milliliters (or cubic centimeters; 1mL = 1cc) of fuel & air. But if someone >wanted to use cubic inches, the same mathematical formula would be used to >calculate the ratio and/or pressure. Yeah... I'm not buying it. You claimed a turbocharger will double the number of "units" of volume in a cylinder: That is patently false and incorrect. Whether measured in cc, ci, cubic fish eyes or ping pong balls; the swept volume of a cylinder, the volume of the combustion chamber, and thereby the compression ratio, all are rigidly fixed in any production automobile and cannot be varied without major mechanical modification. A turbo/supercharger only increases the pressure of the fuel-air mixture in the quite fixed maximum volume of a cylinder. By increasing the pressure of the air-fuel mixture the density is increased, resulting in an increase in the amount of fuel and air available for combustion. PV=nRT. It's perhaps the primary physical law. The swept volume stays quite constant, the combustion chamber volume stays quite constant, the compression ratio stays quite constant: It is NOT rocket surgery. |
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