Re: 33 mpg 2004 Civic
 

rick++ wrote:
> In the summer I get 40 mpg highway.
> I just did a long road trip last weekend at an average
> temperature of -17C (0F) and got 37 mpg. 15% ethanol.

How much ethanol in the summer? The ethanol should have dropped the
mileage down 4.5% or 2 mpg. Engines don't run as efficiently in the
winter, in part because they take longer to warm up. Of course, the air
conditioner usually isn't running nor is the sun roof down. And the gas
is denser in the winter, because liquids contract in the cold.

Jeff

Re: 33 mpg 2004 Civic
 

>From: kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com (Jeff)
>Gee, that's just stupid. You will eventually get a flat.
>They you are going to SOL.

I'll be del SOL ..hah ,anyways,You could be right,but since the spare
hasn't been used or needed since 1993 (that's 15 years btw),it's flat
and worthless right now so I said what the hell I'll remove it along
with the jack. When I get new rims/tires I'm gonna use the stock full
size as a spare, but for now if I get a flat,it'll be cell phone or fix
a flat for the remedy. Hey....why is that group of drivers laughing at
me?

The only time I ever got a flat was on both right side tires, the one
spare would've been useless. Cell phone to the rescue.

Re: 33 mpg 2004 Civic
 

Private Private wrote:
>> From: kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com (Jeff)
>> Gee, that's just stupid. You will eventually get a flat.
>> They you are going to SOL.
>
> I'll be del SOL ..hah ,anyways,You could be right,but since the spare
> hasn't been used or needed since 1993 (that's 15 years btw),it's flat
> and worthless right now so I said what the hell I'll remove it along
> with the jack. When I get new rims/tires I'm gonna use the stock full
> size as a spare, but for now if I get a flat,it'll be cell phone or fix
> a flat for the remedy.

If you have a flat spare, you can add air to it (tow trucks often have a
tank of air) or a compressor.

If you have a spare in your home, you can't use it.

A cell phone doesn't do much good. Sure, you could try to stick the
antenna in the hole, but it won't do much good. And if the tire has a
tear, the people who come to help you will have to put a new tire on the
rim before you can use the car.

Fix a flat may not work either.

> Hey....why is that group of drivers laughing at
> me?
>
> The only time I ever got a flat was on both right side tires, the one
> spare would've been useless. Cell phone to the rescue.

Do whatever you want.

Re: 33 mpg 2004 Civic
 

>From: kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com (Jeff)
>If you have a flat spare, you can add air
>to it (tow trucks often have a tank of air)
>or a compressor.
>If you have a spare in your home, you can't
>use it.

Air compressors are everywhere and easy to find that's not an issue.
What is an issue is my spare tire is (15) years old I'm not trusting a
15 yr old spare with my life @40-50+ mph. I'll get the spare replaced
with a new one first before I refill the old one. But since I've never
used or needed the spare in the last 15 years, yes I did say 15 years,
you got that memorized,15 years, thank you, anyways I'll just use my
full size alloy stock rim/tire when I get new replacement rim/tire set
this year as a spare.
And yes fix a flat is hit or miss , it didn't work when I got the double
flat tires on the right side. I was going to use fix a flat on one tire
and use the spare tire for the other but fix a flat didn't work . So I
called my friend ,he picked me up I got new tires and went about my
way.What saved me here in this instance? Cell phone, bingo.

Re: 33 mpg 2004 Civic
 

On Tue, 22 Jan 2008 17:03:01 GMT, Jeff <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>rick++ wrote:
>> In the summer I get 40 mpg highway.
>> I just did a long road trip last weekend at an average
>> temperature of -17C (0F) and got 37 mpg. 15% ethanol.
>
>How much ethanol in the summer? The ethanol should have dropped the
>mileage down 4.5% or 2 mpg. Engines don't run as efficiently in the
>winter, in part because they take longer to warm up. Of course, the air
>conditioner usually isn't running nor is the sun roof down. And the gas
>is denser in the winter, because liquids contract in the cold.
>
>Jeff


Gas is denser in winter and this contributes to fuel economy? I judge
you missed out on 'science 101'.

Re: 33 mpg 2004 Civic
 

Edward W. Thompson wrote:
> On Tue, 22 Jan 2008 17:03:01 GMT, Jeff <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> rick++ wrote:
>>> In the summer I get 40 mpg highway.
>>> I just did a long road trip last weekend at an average
>>> temperature of -17C (0F) and got 37 mpg. 15% ethanol.
>> How much ethanol in the summer? The ethanol should have dropped the
>> mileage down 4.5% or 2 mpg. Engines don't run as efficiently in the
>> winter, in part because they take longer to warm up. Of course, the air
>> conditioner usually isn't running nor is the sun roof down. And the gas
>> is denser in the winter, because liquids contract in the cold.
>>
>> Jeff
>
>
> Gas is denser in winter and this contributes to fuel economy? I judge
> you missed out on 'science 101'.

Actually, I taught science 101. If the gas is denser, that means that in
every gallon or liter that is colder, you get more energy. More energy
means you go farther.

If the gas is 20 degrees F colder, it contains about 1% more energy or
about a 0.4 mpg difference. If the gas is stored in an underground
container, the gas temperature should be pretty constant. However, the
gas can get colder or warming in transport and when going through the
pipes in the ground.

http://www.users.qwest.net/~taaaz/AZgas.html

Re: 33 mpg 2004 Civic
 

i have an 03 civic lx coupe. in the summer i can get 46mpg by adding a
bottle of stp to the oil, keep the tire pressure at 34lbs and drive
65mph.

Re: 33 mpg 2004 Civic
 

Timothy Stoughton wrote:
> i have an 03 civic lx coupe. in the summer i can get 46mpg by adding a
> bottle of stp to the oil, keep the tire pressure at 34lbs and drive
> 65mph.

And you would get 46 mpg if you kept the tire pressure at 34 lbs and
drove at 65 mpg and added a bottle of gas to the gasoline (i.e., the
same volume of the STP).

You'd save money if you didn't use STP.

Jeff

Re: 33 mpg 2004 Civic
 

On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:06:57 GMT, Jeff <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>Edward W. Thompson wrote:
>> On Tue, 22 Jan 2008 17:03:01 GMT, Jeff <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> rick++ wrote:
>>>> In the summer I get 40 mpg highway.
>>>> I just did a long road trip last weekend at an average
>>>> temperature of -17C (0F) and got 37 mpg. 15% ethanol.
>>> How much ethanol in the summer? The ethanol should have dropped the
>>> mileage down 4.5% or 2 mpg. Engines don't run as efficiently in the
>>> winter, in part because they take longer to warm up. Of course, the air
>>> conditioner usually isn't running nor is the sun roof down. And the gas
>>> is denser in the winter, because liquids contract in the cold.
>>>
>>> Jeff
>>
>>
>> Gas is denser in winter and this contributes to fuel economy? I judge
>> you missed out on 'science 101'.
>
>Actually, I taught science 101. If the gas is denser, that means that in
>every gallon or liter that is colder, you get more energy. More energy
>means you go farther.
>
>If the gas is 20 degrees F colder, it contains about 1% more energy or
>about a 0.4 mpg difference. If the gas is stored in an underground
>container, the gas temperature should be pretty constant. However, the
>gas can get colder or warming in transport and when going through the
>pipes in the ground.
>
>http://www.users.qwest.net/~taaaz/AZgas.html

Haven't you moved the goal posts? You now are saying that the
temperature of the gas from an underground storage tank will be
essentially constant. We can agree upon that, so a gallon of fuel in
the winter is essentially the same volume as that in the summer. Hence
in energy terms a gallon of 'summer' fuel is the same as that of
'winter' fuel. Please explain why winter driving is more fuel
efficient than summer driving. Winter driving is often more fuel
efficient as the driver generally will operate his vehicle more
conservatively due to road conditions.

Where 'benefit' may occur at low ambient temperature is the air is
more dense hence for a given volume, cylinder capacity, a greater
charge of air can be ingested per stroke which will allow more fuel to
be burned hence greater output. That is why intercoolers are used tp
cool the air in turbo charged engines, in case you didn't know. This
has nothing to do with increase in fuel efficiency, simply a potential
increase in power for a given size of engine.

Re: 33 mpg 2004 Civic
 

Jeff wrote:
> Edward W. Thompson wrote:
>> On Tue, 22 Jan 2008 17:03:01 GMT, Jeff <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> rick++ wrote:
>>>> In the summer I get 40 mpg highway.
>>>> I just did a long road trip last weekend at an average
>>>> temperature of -17C (0F) and got 37 mpg. 15% ethanol.
>>> How much ethanol in the summer? The ethanol should have dropped the
>>> mileage down 4.5% or 2 mpg. Engines don't run as efficiently in the
>>> winter, in part because they take longer to warm up. Of course, the
>>> air conditioner usually isn't running nor is the sun roof down. And
>>> the gas is denser in the winter, because liquids contract in the cold.
>>>
>>> Jeff
>>
>>
>> Gas is denser in winter and this contributes to fuel economy? I judge
>> you missed out on 'science 101'.
>
> Actually, I taught science 101. If the gas is denser, that means that in
> every gallon or liter that is colder, you get more energy. More energy
> means you go farther.
>
> If the gas is 20 degrees F colder, it contains about 1% more energy or
> about a 0.4 mpg difference. If the gas is stored in an underground
> container, the gas temperature should be pretty constant. However, the
> gas can get colder or warming in transport and when going through the
> pipes in the ground.
>
> http://www.users.qwest.net/~taaaz/AZgas.html


yes, colder is denser, but formulation changes seasonally. winter gas
has more ethanol, and ethanol has a lower calorie content, hence lower mpg.

Re: 33 mpg 2004 Civic
 

jim beam wrote:
> Jeff wrote:
>> Edward W. Thompson wrote:
>>> On Tue, 22 Jan 2008 17:03:01 GMT, Jeff <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> rick++ wrote:
>>>>> In the summer I get 40 mpg highway.
>>>>> I just did a long road trip last weekend at an average
>>>>> temperature of -17C (0F) and got 37 mpg. 15% ethanol.
>>>> How much ethanol in the summer? The ethanol should have dropped the
>>>> mileage down 4.5% or 2 mpg. Engines don't run as efficiently in the
>>>> winter, in part because they take longer to warm up. Of course, the
>>>> air conditioner usually isn't running nor is the sun roof down. And
>>>> the gas is denser in the winter, because liquids contract in the cold.
>>>>
>>>> Jeff
>>>
>>>
>>> Gas is denser in winter and this contributes to fuel economy? I judge
>>> you missed out on 'science 101'.
>>
>> Actually, I taught science 101. If the gas is denser, that means that
>> in every gallon or liter that is colder, you get more energy. More
>> energy means you go farther.
>>
>> If the gas is 20 degrees F colder, it contains about 1% more energy or
>> about a 0.4 mpg difference. If the gas is stored in an underground
>> container, the gas temperature should be pretty constant. However, the
>> gas can get colder or warming in transport and when going through the
>> pipes in the ground.
>>
>> http://www.users.qwest.net/~taaaz/AZgas.html
>
>
> yes, colder is denser, but formulation changes seasonally. winter gas
> has more ethanol, and ethanol has a lower calorie content, hence lower mpg.

yes, I already pointed out that E15 has about 4.5% less energy that E0 gas.

I don't know how much difference the cold temperature makes, because
most tanks are underground. In theory, none, because the underground
temperature is fairly constant usually about 10 to 15 C, but, the
gasoline may be significantly colder when it is dumped from the trucks
into the ground. And gasoline is not immediately heated or cooled in
those huge underground tanks. It might take a couple of days until it
reaches a steady temperature of about 15 C. But the gasoline might not
last that long in the tank. In addition, the gasoline might be cooled as
it is passing through the pipes in the ground. If the gas is around 0 C,
when it warms up to 15 C (about 59 F), it will expand by about 1.5%.

So the question is, what is the temperature at the point where the
gasoline volume is measured as it is pumped?

http://www.users.qwest.net/~taaaz/AZgas.html
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...hot-fuel_N.htm

Jeff

Re: 33 mpg 2004 Civic
 

Jeff wrote:
> jim beam wrote:
>> Jeff wrote:
>>> Edward W. Thompson wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 22 Jan 2008 17:03:01 GMT, Jeff <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> rick++ wrote:
>>>>>> In the summer I get 40 mpg highway.
>>>>>> I just did a long road trip last weekend at an average
>>>>>> temperature of -17C (0F) and got 37 mpg. 15% ethanol.
>>>>> How much ethanol in the summer? The ethanol should have dropped the
>>>>> mileage down 4.5% or 2 mpg. Engines don't run as efficiently in the
>>>>> winter, in part because they take longer to warm up. Of course, the
>>>>> air conditioner usually isn't running nor is the sun roof down. And
>>>>> the gas is denser in the winter, because liquids contract in the cold.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jeff
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Gas is denser in winter and this contributes to fuel economy? I judge
>>>> you missed out on 'science 101'.
>>>
>>> Actually, I taught science 101. If the gas is denser, that means that
>>> in every gallon or liter that is colder, you get more energy. More
>>> energy means you go farther.
>>>
>>> If the gas is 20 degrees F colder, it contains about 1% more energy
>>> or about a 0.4 mpg difference. If the gas is stored in an underground
>>> container, the gas temperature should be pretty constant. However,
>>> the gas can get colder or warming in transport and when going through
>>> the pipes in the ground.
>>>
>>> http://www.users.qwest.net/~taaaz/AZgas.html
>>
>>
>> yes, colder is denser, but formulation changes seasonally. winter gas
>> has more ethanol, and ethanol has a lower calorie content, hence lower
>> mpg.
>
> yes, I already pointed out that E15 has about 4.5% less energy that E0 gas.
>
> I don't know how much difference the cold temperature makes, because
> most tanks are underground. In theory, none, because the underground
> temperature is fairly constant usually about 10 to 15 C, but, the
> gasoline may be significantly colder when it is dumped from the trucks
> into the ground. And gasoline is not immediately heated or cooled in
> those huge underground tanks. It might take a couple of days until it
> reaches a steady temperature of about 15 C. But the gasoline might not
> last that long in the tank. In addition, the gasoline might be cooled as
> it is passing through the pipes in the ground. If the gas is around 0 C,
> when it warms up to 15 C (about 59 F), it will expand by about 1.5%.
>
> So the question is, what is the temperature at the point where the
> gasoline volume is measured as it is pumped?
>
> http://www.users.qwest.net/~taaaz/AZgas.html
> http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...hot-fuel_N.htm
>
> Jeff
>
>

gasoline shouldn't be sold by volume, it should be sold by the therm,
like natural gas. that way, there's no gaming of the energy content, no
class action lawsuits over gas being sold short in the summer because
it's warm, etc...

Re: 33 mpg 2004 Civic
 

jim beam wrote:

<...>

> gasoline shouldn't be sold by volume, it should be sold by the therm,
> like natural gas. that way, there's no gaming of the energy content, no
> class action lawsuits over gas being sold short in the summer because
> it's warm, etc...

That's an excellent idea. Plus, why should we pay the same tax on E10 as
E0 when it has 3% less energy per gallon? Or E85, which has 35% less energy?

It shouldn't be hard to determine the energy content of different
gasolines and adjust them for the temperature and any additives, like
the oxygenates (usually ethanol) that are added to keep the exhaust clean.

Jeff

Re: 33 mpg 2004 Civic
 

Jeff wrote:
> jim beam wrote:
>
> <...>
>
>> gasoline shouldn't be sold by volume, it should be sold by the therm,
>> like natural gas. that way, there's no gaming of the energy content,
>> no class action lawsuits over gas being sold short in the summer
>> because it's warm, etc...
>
> That's an excellent idea. Plus, why should we pay the same tax on E10 as
> E0 when it has 3% less energy per gallon? Or E85, which has 35% less
> energy?

better yet, why should we subsidize farmers to produce the stuff and
give tax credits to the oilcos to use it? we're getting the hose
/three/ ways, not just with lower gas mileage.


>
> It shouldn't be hard to determine the energy content of different
> gasolines and adjust them for the temperature and any additives,

just like natural gas.


> like
> the oxygenates (usually ethanol) that are added to keep the exhaust clean.

that smells bogus. it adds to the "oxygen content" going in, but fwiu,
since that oxygen atom is already bound in the molecule, it yields
nothing to the reaction. adding a compound with nitrates would add to
the reaction since they yield free oxygen, but that would add calorific
value too, and that ain't gonna be allowed!

Re: 33 mpg 2004 Civic
 

On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 19:09:58 -0800, jim beam
<spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote:

>Jeff wrote:
>> jim beam wrote:
>>> Jeff wrote:
>>>> Edward W. Thompson wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 22 Jan 2008 17:03:01 GMT, Jeff <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> rick++ wrote:
>>>>>>> In the summer I get 40 mpg highway.
>>>>>>> I just did a long road trip last weekend at an average
>>>>>>> temperature of -17C (0F) and got 37 mpg. 15% ethanol.
>>>>>> How much ethanol in the summer? The ethanol should have dropped the
>>>>>> mileage down 4.5% or 2 mpg. Engines don't run as efficiently in the
>>>>>> winter, in part because they take longer to warm up. Of course, the
>>>>>> air conditioner usually isn't running nor is the sun roof down. And
>>>>>> the gas is denser in the winter, because liquids contract in the cold.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jeff
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Gas is denser in winter and this contributes to fuel economy? I judge
>>>>> you missed out on 'science 101'.
>>>>
>>>> Actually, I taught science 101. If the gas is denser, that means that
>>>> in every gallon or liter that is colder, you get more energy. More
>>>> energy means you go farther.
>>>>
>>>> If the gas is 20 degrees F colder, it contains about 1% more energy
>>>> or about a 0.4 mpg difference. If the gas is stored in an underground
>>>> container, the gas temperature should be pretty constant. However,
>>>> the gas can get colder or warming in transport and when going through
>>>> the pipes in the ground.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.users.qwest.net/~taaaz/AZgas.html
>>>
>>>
>>> yes, colder is denser, but formulation changes seasonally. winter gas
>>> has more ethanol, and ethanol has a lower calorie content, hence lower
>>> mpg.
>>
>> yes, I already pointed out that E15 has about 4.5% less energy that E0 gas.
>>
>> I don't know how much difference the cold temperature makes, because
>> most tanks are underground. In theory, none, because the underground
>> temperature is fairly constant usually about 10 to 15 C, but, the
>> gasoline may be significantly colder when it is dumped from the trucks
>> into the ground. And gasoline is not immediately heated or cooled in
>> those huge underground tanks. It might take a couple of days until it
>> reaches a steady temperature of about 15 C. But the gasoline might not
>> last that long in the tank. In addition, the gasoline might be cooled as
>> it is passing through the pipes in the ground. If the gas is around 0 C,
>> when it warms up to 15 C (about 59 F), it will expand by about 1.5%.
>>
>> So the question is, what is the temperature at the point where the
>> gasoline volume is measured as it is pumped?
>>
>> http://www.users.qwest.net/~taaaz/AZgas.html
>> http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...hot-fuel_N.htm
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>>
>
>gasoline shouldn't be sold by volume, it should be sold by the therm,
>like natural gas. that way, there's no gaming of the energy content, no
>class action lawsuits over gas being sold short in the summer because
>it's warm, etc...

It would still likely be metered by volume so you still have to either
compensate for temperature or... not. The density of gas might vary
by +/- 2% over any reasonable temperature range compared to it's
density at 60F which is where it is theoretically sold. You get
cheated a little in the summer and you cheat them a little in the
winter, unless someone is intentionally heating it up.

Energy content by mass varies +/- 4% around the nominal 44.4 Mj/kg.
10% ethanol knocks it down another 3.3%. Economists would argue that
the market is already compensating for this variability (in
temperature and energy content), but economists never compensate for
the fact that the butcher has his finger on the scale.