John

"Matt Ion" <soundy@moltenimage.com> wrote in message
news:Pm5ke.1447034$8l.54645@pd7tw1no...
>I used to have an '87 Accord seadn (2.0/2bbl/5spd) that developed a habit
>of burning oil REAL BAD when it was cold, but as soon as it warmed up, the
>oil burning cleared up completely - flew thru emissions test, no problems.
>It was suggested a worn valve seal was the culprit (would expand and close
>up once warm), so I had the head rebuilt, to no avail.
>
> Anyway, I lived with it (as did my neighbors) for a while until I wrote
> the car off...
>
> Now I've picked up an '87 Accord hatchback, with the same engine and the
> same problem, though not as bad (yet). The thing runs great, compression
> to spare; I suspect the engine was rebuilt not too long ago, because it
> goes like stink. There's gotta be something else.
>
> Two out of three near-identicals Accords now with this problem - is this a
> known thing? Is there a known fix?
>
> Only other possible thing I can think of is the PCV valve, which I
> couldn't replace on the first car because I could never get the %@#*$&
> thing out of the @^$#)# manifold... now I've managed to get it loose and
> replace it on this one, and just waiting to get the alternator working
> again to try it out. Unless someone has another suggestion?
>
>
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>
I had an '85 with the 1.8 engine that did the same thing. When the weather
was cold like 35 degrees F or less it would smoke bad til it warmed up. It
had good compression and ran great. I decide to put rings in it and when I
pulled the pistons I found that the oil control rings on every one of them
was stuck in the ring grooves. There was very little wear in the bores and
ring end gaps of the compression rings were all well within specs. I
cleaned the grooves, honed the cylinders and put in the new rings and the
problem was solved. I wondered if there would have been some way to free the
rings up with out pulling them. Anyway it's got about 6,000 miles on it
since then and doesn't smoke at all now.

John

John

"Matt Ion" <soundy@moltenimage.com> wrote in message
news:Pm5ke.1447034$8l.54645@pd7tw1no...
>I used to have an '87 Accord seadn (2.0/2bbl/5spd) that developed a habit
>of burning oil REAL BAD when it was cold, but as soon as it warmed up, the
>oil burning cleared up completely - flew thru emissions test, no problems.
>It was suggested a worn valve seal was the culprit (would expand and close
>up once warm), so I had the head rebuilt, to no avail.
>
> Anyway, I lived with it (as did my neighbors) for a while until I wrote
> the car off...
>
> Now I've picked up an '87 Accord hatchback, with the same engine and the
> same problem, though not as bad (yet). The thing runs great, compression
> to spare; I suspect the engine was rebuilt not too long ago, because it
> goes like stink. There's gotta be something else.
>
> Two out of three near-identicals Accords now with this problem - is this a
> known thing? Is there a known fix?
>
> Only other possible thing I can think of is the PCV valve, which I
> couldn't replace on the first car because I could never get the %@#*$&
> thing out of the @^$#)# manifold... now I've managed to get it loose and
> replace it on this one, and just waiting to get the alternator working
> again to try it out. Unless someone has another suggestion?
>
>
> ---
> avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
> Virus Database (VPS): 0520-4, 05/20/2005
> Tested on: 5/22/2005 12:48:41 PM
> avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2005 ALWIL Software.
> http://www.avast.com
>
>
>
I had an '85 with the 1.8 engine that did the same thing. When the weather
was cold like 35 degrees F or less it would smoke bad til it warmed up. It
had good compression and ran great. I decide to put rings in it and when I
pulled the pistons I found that the oil control rings on every one of them
was stuck in the ring grooves. There was very little wear in the bores and
ring end gaps of the compression rings were all well within specs. I
cleaned the grooves, honed the cylinders and put in the new rings and the
problem was solved. I wondered if there would have been some way to free the
rings up with out pulling them. Anyway it's got about 6,000 miles on it
since then and doesn't smoke at all now.

John

Matt Ion

jim beam wrote:
> Matt Ion wrote:
>
>> jim beam wrote:
>>
>>> Matt Ion wrote:
>>>
>>>> I used to have an '87 Accord seadn (2.0/2bbl/5spd) that developed a
>>>> habit of burning oil REAL BAD when it was cold, but as soon as it
>>>> warmed up, the oil burning cleared up completely - flew thru
>>>> emissions test, no problems. It was suggested a worn valve seal was
>>>> the culprit (would expand and close up once warm), so I had the head
>>>> rebuilt, to no avail.
>>>>
>>>> Anyway, I lived with it (as did my neighbors) for a while until I
>>>> wrote the car off...
>>>>
>>>> Now I've picked up an '87 Accord hatchback, with the same engine and
>>>> the same problem, though not as bad (yet). The thing runs great,
>>>> compression to spare; I suspect the engine was rebuilt not too long
>>>> ago, because it goes like stink. There's gotta be something else.
>>>>
>>>> Two out of three near-identicals Accords now with this problem - is
>>>> this a known thing? Is there a known fix?
>>>>
>>>> Only other possible thing I can think of is the PCV valve, which I
>>>> couldn't replace on the first car because I could never get the
>>>> %@#*$& thing out of the @^$#)# manifold... now I've managed to get
>>>> it loose and replace it on this one, and just waiting to get the
>>>> alternator working again to try it out. Unless someone has another
>>>> suggestion?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---
>>>> avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
>>>> Virus Database (VPS): 0520-4, 05/20/2005
>>>> Tested on: 5/22/2005 12:48:41 PM
>>>> avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2005 ALWIL Software.
>>>> http://www.avast.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> what are the symptoms that indicate that it's buring oil only when
>>> cold? you need to be more specific so we can help.
>>
>>
>>
>> Ummm... it blows out huge amounts of burnt-oil-smelling blue smoke
>> when the engine is cold, and doesn't once it's warmed up. Can't get
>> much more specific than that.
>>
> you didn't state the symptoms, so relax guy.

I did say it was BURNING oil, not USING it, and pointing out that it
"cleared up" and "passed emissions" should indicate it was SMOKING
pretty badly before. At least for anyone who's paying attention.

> stating mileage would help too.

270,000-some kilometers.

> causes include valve stem seals, piston rings, pcv valve, even esoteric
> stuff like changing spark plugs & allowing oil to run into the cylinders.
>
> in your case, i'd say rings. do the compression test.



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Matt Ion

jim beam wrote:
> Matt Ion wrote:
>
>> jim beam wrote:
>>
>>> Matt Ion wrote:
>>>
>>>> I used to have an '87 Accord seadn (2.0/2bbl/5spd) that developed a
>>>> habit of burning oil REAL BAD when it was cold, but as soon as it
>>>> warmed up, the oil burning cleared up completely - flew thru
>>>> emissions test, no problems. It was suggested a worn valve seal was
>>>> the culprit (would expand and close up once warm), so I had the head
>>>> rebuilt, to no avail.
>>>>
>>>> Anyway, I lived with it (as did my neighbors) for a while until I
>>>> wrote the car off...
>>>>
>>>> Now I've picked up an '87 Accord hatchback, with the same engine and
>>>> the same problem, though not as bad (yet). The thing runs great,
>>>> compression to spare; I suspect the engine was rebuilt not too long
>>>> ago, because it goes like stink. There's gotta be something else.
>>>>
>>>> Two out of three near-identicals Accords now with this problem - is
>>>> this a known thing? Is there a known fix?
>>>>
>>>> Only other possible thing I can think of is the PCV valve, which I
>>>> couldn't replace on the first car because I could never get the
>>>> %@#*$& thing out of the @^$#)# manifold... now I've managed to get
>>>> it loose and replace it on this one, and just waiting to get the
>>>> alternator working again to try it out. Unless someone has another
>>>> suggestion?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---
>>>> avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
>>>> Virus Database (VPS): 0520-4, 05/20/2005
>>>> Tested on: 5/22/2005 12:48:41 PM
>>>> avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2005 ALWIL Software.
>>>> http://www.avast.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> what are the symptoms that indicate that it's buring oil only when
>>> cold? you need to be more specific so we can help.
>>
>>
>>
>> Ummm... it blows out huge amounts of burnt-oil-smelling blue smoke
>> when the engine is cold, and doesn't once it's warmed up. Can't get
>> much more specific than that.
>>
> you didn't state the symptoms, so relax guy.

I did say it was BURNING oil, not USING it, and pointing out that it
"cleared up" and "passed emissions" should indicate it was SMOKING
pretty badly before. At least for anyone who's paying attention.

> stating mileage would help too.

270,000-some kilometers.

> causes include valve stem seals, piston rings, pcv valve, even esoteric
> stuff like changing spark plugs & allowing oil to run into the cylinders.
>
> in your case, i'd say rings. do the compression test.



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Matt Ion

John wrote:

> "Matt Ion" <soundy@moltenimage.com> wrote in message
> news:Pm5ke.1447034$8l.54645@pd7tw1no...
>
>>I used to have an '87 Accord seadn (2.0/2bbl/5spd) that developed a habit
>>of burning oil REAL BAD when it was cold, but as soon as it warmed up, the
>>oil burning cleared up completely - flew thru emissions test, no problems.
>>It was suggested a worn valve seal was the culprit (would expand and close
>>up once warm), so I had the head rebuilt, to no avail.
>>
>>Anyway, I lived with it (as did my neighbors) for a while until I wrote
>>the car off...
>>
>>Now I've picked up an '87 Accord hatchback, with the same engine and the
>>same problem, though not as bad (yet). The thing runs great, compression
>>to spare; I suspect the engine was rebuilt not too long ago, because it
>>goes like stink. There's gotta be something else.
>>
>>Two out of three near-identicals Accords now with this problem - is this a
>>known thing? Is there a known fix?
>>
>>Only other possible thing I can think of is the PCV valve, which I
>>couldn't replace on the first car because I could never get the %@#*$&
>>thing out of the @^$#)# manifold... now I've managed to get it loose and
>>replace it on this one, and just waiting to get the alternator working
>>again to try it out. Unless someone has another suggestion?
>>
>>
>>---
>>avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
>>Virus Database (VPS): 0520-4, 05/20/2005
>>Tested on: 5/22/2005 12:48:41 PM
>>avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2005 ALWIL Software.
>>http://www.avast.com
>>
>>
>>
>
> I had an '85 with the 1.8 engine that did the same thing. When the weather
> was cold like 35 degrees F or less it would smoke bad til it warmed up. It
> had good compression and ran great. I decide to put rings in it and when I
> pulled the pistons I found that the oil control rings on every one of them
> was stuck in the ring grooves. There was very little wear in the bores and
> ring end gaps of the compression rings were all well within specs. I
> cleaned the grooves, honed the cylinders and put in the new rings and the
> problem was solved. I wondered if there would have been some way to free the
> rings up with out pulling them. Anyway it's got about 6,000 miles on it
> since then and doesn't smoke at all now.

Hmmmm, that's interesting... I haven't checked the compression yet, but
like I said elsewhere, the way the thing performs, I don't expect
there's a significant compression problem, and besides, every instance
I've ever seen, from other cars to motorcycles to lawnmowers, worn
compression rings result in minimal but consistant smoking regardless of
engine temperature. Oil rings though... wonder if there's a
relatively easy way to check that without pulling off the head and its
5,342 vacuum hoses. Too bad I didn't know to check that when I had the
oilpan off, it woulda been easy to pull of a rod end cap and slip a
piston out...


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Matt Ion

John wrote:

> "Matt Ion" <soundy@moltenimage.com> wrote in message
> news:Pm5ke.1447034$8l.54645@pd7tw1no...
>
>>I used to have an '87 Accord seadn (2.0/2bbl/5spd) that developed a habit
>>of burning oil REAL BAD when it was cold, but as soon as it warmed up, the
>>oil burning cleared up completely - flew thru emissions test, no problems.
>>It was suggested a worn valve seal was the culprit (would expand and close
>>up once warm), so I had the head rebuilt, to no avail.
>>
>>Anyway, I lived with it (as did my neighbors) for a while until I wrote
>>the car off...
>>
>>Now I've picked up an '87 Accord hatchback, with the same engine and the
>>same problem, though not as bad (yet). The thing runs great, compression
>>to spare; I suspect the engine was rebuilt not too long ago, because it
>>goes like stink. There's gotta be something else.
>>
>>Two out of three near-identicals Accords now with this problem - is this a
>>known thing? Is there a known fix?
>>
>>Only other possible thing I can think of is the PCV valve, which I
>>couldn't replace on the first car because I could never get the %@#*$&
>>thing out of the @^$#)# manifold... now I've managed to get it loose and
>>replace it on this one, and just waiting to get the alternator working
>>again to try it out. Unless someone has another suggestion?
>>
>>
>>---
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>>Virus Database (VPS): 0520-4, 05/20/2005
>>Tested on: 5/22/2005 12:48:41 PM
>>avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2005 ALWIL Software.
>>http://www.avast.com
>>
>>
>>
>
> I had an '85 with the 1.8 engine that did the same thing. When the weather
> was cold like 35 degrees F or less it would smoke bad til it warmed up. It
> had good compression and ran great. I decide to put rings in it and when I
> pulled the pistons I found that the oil control rings on every one of them
> was stuck in the ring grooves. There was very little wear in the bores and
> ring end gaps of the compression rings were all well within specs. I
> cleaned the grooves, honed the cylinders and put in the new rings and the
> problem was solved. I wondered if there would have been some way to free the
> rings up with out pulling them. Anyway it's got about 6,000 miles on it
> since then and doesn't smoke at all now.

Hmmmm, that's interesting... I haven't checked the compression yet, but
like I said elsewhere, the way the thing performs, I don't expect
there's a significant compression problem, and besides, every instance
I've ever seen, from other cars to motorcycles to lawnmowers, worn
compression rings result in minimal but consistant smoking regardless of
engine temperature. Oil rings though... wonder if there's a
relatively easy way to check that without pulling off the head and its
5,342 vacuum hoses. Too bad I didn't know to check that when I had the
oilpan off, it woulda been easy to pull of a rod end cap and slip a
piston out...


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Steve Bigelow

"Matt Ion" <soundy@moltenimage.com> wrote in message
news:sabke.1450690$8l.49708@pd7tw1no...

>Too bad I didn't know to check that when I had the oilpan off, it woulda
>been easy to pull of a rod end cap and slip a piston out...

Only if you had the crank out of the way.

Steve Bigelow

"Matt Ion" <soundy@moltenimage.com> wrote in message
news:sabke.1450690$8l.49708@pd7tw1no...

>Too bad I didn't know to check that when I had the oilpan off, it woulda
>been easy to pull of a rod end cap and slip a piston out...

Only if you had the crank out of the way.

Matt Ion

disallow wrote:
> never had this prob on a honda, just wondering if
> it could be the valve guides? My 85 Nissan did this....

Well, that's what two or three mechanics (and this newsgroup, for that
matter) suggested when my previous 87 Accord had the same problem
several years ago. Had the head fully rebuilt, but it didn't help,
which is why I'm searching for another course of action before going the
expensive route on this one.


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Matt Ion

disallow wrote:
> never had this prob on a honda, just wondering if
> it could be the valve guides? My 85 Nissan did this....

Well, that's what two or three mechanics (and this newsgroup, for that
matter) suggested when my previous 87 Accord had the same problem
several years ago. Had the head fully rebuilt, but it didn't help,
which is why I'm searching for another course of action before going the
expensive route on this one.


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SoCalMike

John wrote:
> problem was solved. I wondered if there would have been some way to free the
> rings up with out pulling them.

some people have claimed drizzling water in the intake will loosen
carbon and possibly free stuck rings. not too much though- just enough
to make a cloud of steam in the exhaust.

SoCalMike

John wrote:
> problem was solved. I wondered if there would have been some way to free the
> rings up with out pulling them.

some people have claimed drizzling water in the intake will loosen
carbon and possibly free stuck rings. not too much though- just enough
to make a cloud of steam in the exhaust.

Matt Ion

SoCalMike wrote:

> John wrote:
>
>> problem was solved. I wondered if there would have been some way to
>> free the rings up with out pulling them.
>
>
> some people have claimed drizzling water in the intake will loosen
> carbon and possibly free stuck rings. not too much though- just enough
> to make a cloud of steam in the exhaust.

How about misting some in with a spray bottle?

Hmmm, worth a try...


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Matt Ion

SoCalMike wrote:

> John wrote:
>
>> problem was solved. I wondered if there would have been some way to
>> free the rings up with out pulling them.
>
>
> some people have claimed drizzling water in the intake will loosen
> carbon and possibly free stuck rings. not too much though- just enough
> to make a cloud of steam in the exhaust.

How about misting some in with a spray bottle?

Hmmm, worth a try...


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Jason

In article <GX9ke.2718$NL1.2650@fe02.lga>, "John" <jlove2b@charter.net> wrote:

> "Matt Ion" <soundy@moltenimage.com> wrote in message
> news:Pm5ke.1447034$8l.54645@pd7tw1no...
> >I used to have an '87 Accord seadn (2.0/2bbl/5spd) that developed a habit
> >of burning oil REAL BAD when it was cold, but as soon as it warmed up, the
> >oil burning cleared up completely - flew thru emissions test, no problems.
> >It was suggested a worn valve seal was the culprit (would expand and close
> >up once warm), so I had the head rebuilt, to no avail.
> >
> > Anyway, I lived with it (as did my neighbors) for a while until I wrote
> > the car off...
> >
> > Now I've picked up an '87 Accord hatchback, with the same engine and the
> > same problem, though not as bad (yet). The thing runs great, compression
> > to spare; I suspect the engine was rebuilt not too long ago, because it
> > goes like stink. There's gotta be something else.
> >
> > Two out of three near-identicals Accords now with this problem - is this a
> > known thing? Is there a known fix?
> >
> > Only other possible thing I can think of is the PCV valve, which I
> > couldn't replace on the first car because I could never get the %@#*$&
> > thing out of the @^$#)# manifold... now I've managed to get it loose and
> > replace it on this one, and just waiting to get the alternator working
> > again to try it out. Unless someone has another suggestion?
> >
> >
> > ---
> > avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
> > Virus Database (VPS): 0520-4, 05/20/2005
> > Tested on: 5/22/2005 12:48:41 PM
> > avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2005 ALWIL Software.
> > http://www.avast.com
> >
> >
> >
> I had an '85 with the 1.8 engine that did the same thing. When the weather
> was cold like 35 degrees F or less it would smoke bad til it warmed up. It
> had good compression and ran great. I decide to put rings in it and when I
> pulled the pistons I found that the oil control rings on every one of them
> was stuck in the ring grooves. There was very little wear in the bores and
> ring end gaps of the compression rings were all well within specs. I
> cleaned the grooves, honed the cylinders and put in the new rings and the
> problem was solved. I wondered if there would have been some way to free the
> rings up with out pulling them. Anyway it's got about 6,000 miles on it
> since then and doesn't smoke at all now.
>
> John

John,
Excellent post. I believe that you are correct as to the cause of the
problem. It makes perfect sense to anyone that has ever worked on lots of
engines. I have never seen this problem while working on engines. It would
be a problem that would be hard to find unless you were looking for it. I
learned a lot from your post.
Jason

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