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90 Accord main relay
My thanks to this news group and several websites that decribe the
main relay problem. I had an intermittent problem with flashing sports light and check engine light for 5 years. It was getting bad enough that I was going to donate the car. Dealer wanted to put in a new transmission. A mechanic said he replaced the main rely. I finally took out the main relay myself and found bad solder joints exactly as pictured on several web sites. Bought a new one for $40 (too timid to try fixing solder myself). Problem is solved. Thanks again. G |
Re: 90 Accord main relay
Gene Wagenbreth <genewxxx@isi-OS4> wrote in news:f8d8a2$q0l@venera.isi.edu:
> My thanks to this news group and several websites that decribe the > main relay problem. I had an intermittent problem with flashing > sports light and check engine light for 5 years. It was getting bad > enough that I was going to donate the car. Dealer wanted to > put in a new transmission. A mechanic said he replaced the main > rely. Did he charge you for it? > I finally took out the main relay myself and found bad solder > joints exactly as pictured on several web sites. Bought a new one > for $40 (too timid to try fixing solder myself). Problem is solved. Until the new relay gets the same problem. I believe that people who have resoldered their original relay have had no failures since,but a new relay may develop the same fractures. (makes me wonder if the relay maker used the right solder alloy for the job???) Now if you still have the old relay,you could find a friend who knows how to solder and has the tools to re-do the old relay and keep it as a spare. -- Jim Yanik jyanik at kua.net |
Re: 90 Accord main relay
Gene Wagenbreth <genewxxx@isi-OS4> wrote in news:f8d8a2$q0l@venera.isi.edu:
> My thanks to this news group and several websites that decribe the > main relay problem. I had an intermittent problem with flashing > sports light and check engine light for 5 years. It was getting bad > enough that I was going to donate the car. Dealer wanted to > put in a new transmission. A mechanic said he replaced the main > rely. Did he charge you for it? > I finally took out the main relay myself and found bad solder > joints exactly as pictured on several web sites. Bought a new one > for $40 (too timid to try fixing solder myself). Problem is solved. Until the new relay gets the same problem. I believe that people who have resoldered their original relay have had no failures since,but a new relay may develop the same fractures. (makes me wonder if the relay maker used the right solder alloy for the job???) Now if you still have the old relay,you could find a friend who knows how to solder and has the tools to re-do the old relay and keep it as a spare. -- Jim Yanik jyanik at kua.net |
Re: 90 Accord main relay
Gene Wagenbreth <genewxxx@isi-OS4> wrote in news:f8d8a2$q0l@venera.isi.edu:
> My thanks to this news group and several websites that decribe the > main relay problem. I had an intermittent problem with flashing > sports light and check engine light for 5 years. It was getting bad > enough that I was going to donate the car. Dealer wanted to > put in a new transmission. A mechanic said he replaced the main > rely. Did he charge you for it? > I finally took out the main relay myself and found bad solder > joints exactly as pictured on several web sites. Bought a new one > for $40 (too timid to try fixing solder myself). Problem is solved. Until the new relay gets the same problem. I believe that people who have resoldered their original relay have had no failures since,but a new relay may develop the same fractures. (makes me wonder if the relay maker used the right solder alloy for the job???) Now if you still have the old relay,you could find a friend who knows how to solder and has the tools to re-do the old relay and keep it as a spare. -- Jim Yanik jyanik at kua.net |
Re: 90 Accord main relay
Jim Yanik wrote:
> Gene Wagenbreth <genewxxx@isi-OS4> wrote in news:f8d8a2$q0l@venera.isi.edu: > >> My thanks to this news group and several websites that decribe the >> main relay problem. I had an intermittent problem with flashing >> sports light and check engine light for 5 years. It was getting bad >> enough that I was going to donate the car. Dealer wanted to >> put in a new transmission. A mechanic said he replaced the main >> rely. > > Did he charge you for it? > >> I finally took out the main relay myself and found bad solder >> joints exactly as pictured on several web sites. Bought a new one >> for $40 (too timid to try fixing solder myself). Problem is solved. > > Until the new relay gets the same problem. > > I believe that people who have resoldered their original relay have had no > failures since,but a new relay may develop the same fractures. i think that's just a matter of time. i doubt anyone that's re-soldered has had that relay in operation for an additional 10+ years. > > (makes me wonder if the relay maker used the right solder alloy for the > job???) no, parts are subject to physical stress. a big no-no for solder joints. bad design - depending on manufacturer objective! > > > Now if you still have the old relay,you could find a friend who knows how > to solder and has the tools to re-do the old relay and keep it as a spare. indeed - need a higher wattage iron for that relay - some big copper parts in there that will suck the heat out of a lesser iron and make crappy joints. |
Re: 90 Accord main relay
Jim Yanik wrote:
> Gene Wagenbreth <genewxxx@isi-OS4> wrote in news:f8d8a2$q0l@venera.isi.edu: > >> My thanks to this news group and several websites that decribe the >> main relay problem. I had an intermittent problem with flashing >> sports light and check engine light for 5 years. It was getting bad >> enough that I was going to donate the car. Dealer wanted to >> put in a new transmission. A mechanic said he replaced the main >> rely. > > Did he charge you for it? > >> I finally took out the main relay myself and found bad solder >> joints exactly as pictured on several web sites. Bought a new one >> for $40 (too timid to try fixing solder myself). Problem is solved. > > Until the new relay gets the same problem. > > I believe that people who have resoldered their original relay have had no > failures since,but a new relay may develop the same fractures. i think that's just a matter of time. i doubt anyone that's re-soldered has had that relay in operation for an additional 10+ years. > > (makes me wonder if the relay maker used the right solder alloy for the > job???) no, parts are subject to physical stress. a big no-no for solder joints. bad design - depending on manufacturer objective! > > > Now if you still have the old relay,you could find a friend who knows how > to solder and has the tools to re-do the old relay and keep it as a spare. indeed - need a higher wattage iron for that relay - some big copper parts in there that will suck the heat out of a lesser iron and make crappy joints. |
Re: 90 Accord main relay
Jim Yanik wrote:
> Gene Wagenbreth <genewxxx@isi-OS4> wrote in news:f8d8a2$q0l@venera.isi.edu: > >> My thanks to this news group and several websites that decribe the >> main relay problem. I had an intermittent problem with flashing >> sports light and check engine light for 5 years. It was getting bad >> enough that I was going to donate the car. Dealer wanted to >> put in a new transmission. A mechanic said he replaced the main >> rely. > > Did he charge you for it? > >> I finally took out the main relay myself and found bad solder >> joints exactly as pictured on several web sites. Bought a new one >> for $40 (too timid to try fixing solder myself). Problem is solved. > > Until the new relay gets the same problem. > > I believe that people who have resoldered their original relay have had no > failures since,but a new relay may develop the same fractures. i think that's just a matter of time. i doubt anyone that's re-soldered has had that relay in operation for an additional 10+ years. > > (makes me wonder if the relay maker used the right solder alloy for the > job???) no, parts are subject to physical stress. a big no-no for solder joints. bad design - depending on manufacturer objective! > > > Now if you still have the old relay,you could find a friend who knows how > to solder and has the tools to re-do the old relay and keep it as a spare. indeed - need a higher wattage iron for that relay - some big copper parts in there that will suck the heat out of a lesser iron and make crappy joints. |
Re: 90 Accord main relay
Gene Wagenbreth wrote:
> My thanks to this news group and several websites that decribe the > main relay problem. I had an intermittent problem with flashing > sports light and check engine light for 5 years. It was getting bad > enough that I was going to donate the car. Dealer wanted to > put in a new transmission. A mechanic said he replaced the main > rely. I finally took out the main relay myself and found bad solder > joints exactly as pictured on several web sites. Bought a new one > for $40 (too timid to try fixing solder myself). Problem is solved. > > Thanks again. > > G i second that. personally, i prefer to replace, but soldering /definitely/ revives a sick honda most admirably. |
Re: 90 Accord main relay
Gene Wagenbreth wrote:
> My thanks to this news group and several websites that decribe the > main relay problem. I had an intermittent problem with flashing > sports light and check engine light for 5 years. It was getting bad > enough that I was going to donate the car. Dealer wanted to > put in a new transmission. A mechanic said he replaced the main > rely. I finally took out the main relay myself and found bad solder > joints exactly as pictured on several web sites. Bought a new one > for $40 (too timid to try fixing solder myself). Problem is solved. > > Thanks again. > > G i second that. personally, i prefer to replace, but soldering /definitely/ revives a sick honda most admirably. |
Re: 90 Accord main relay
Gene Wagenbreth wrote:
> My thanks to this news group and several websites that decribe the > main relay problem. I had an intermittent problem with flashing > sports light and check engine light for 5 years. It was getting bad > enough that I was going to donate the car. Dealer wanted to > put in a new transmission. A mechanic said he replaced the main > rely. I finally took out the main relay myself and found bad solder > joints exactly as pictured on several web sites. Bought a new one > for $40 (too timid to try fixing solder myself). Problem is solved. > > Thanks again. > > G i second that. personally, i prefer to replace, but soldering /definitely/ revives a sick honda most admirably. |
Re: 90 Accord main relay
jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in
news:AIadnS5H0cTONjfbnZ2dnUVZ_q2hnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t: > Jim Yanik wrote: >> Gene Wagenbreth <genewxxx@isi-OS4> wrote in >> news:f8d8a2$q0l@venera.isi.edu: >> >>> My thanks to this news group and several websites that decribe the >>> main relay problem. I had an intermittent problem with flashing >>> sports light and check engine light for 5 years. It was getting bad >>> enough that I was going to donate the car. Dealer wanted to >>> put in a new transmission. A mechanic said he replaced the main >>> rely. >> >> Did he charge you for it? >> >>> I finally took out the main relay myself and found bad solder >>> joints exactly as pictured on several web sites. Bought a new one >>> for $40 (too timid to try fixing solder myself). Problem is solved. >> >> Until the new relay gets the same problem. >> >> I believe that people who have resoldered their original relay have >> had no failures since,but a new relay may develop the same fractures. > > i think that's just a matter of time. i doubt anyone that's > re-soldered has had that relay in operation for an additional 10+ > years. IIRC,some people here have had MR failures 6-7 yrs after purchase. The MR on my 94 Integra GSR lasted longer than before it was re-soldered. (and failed about at 7 yrs) Too bad that car got stolen,stripped and torched last month. :-( Now I have a 2003 Sentra SE-R Spec V. > >> >> (makes me wonder if the relay maker used the right solder alloy for >> the job???) > > no, parts are subject to physical stress. a big no-no for solder > joints. bad design - depending on manufacturer objective! > I've been reading over on sci.electronics.design about the many different solder alloys manufacturers use on wave-soldering lines;some will fracture more easily than others,some may crystalize sooner.(and then fracture) The new lead-free solders are even worse;lots of NEW consumer products with fractured solder joints. Some solder alloys are not as ductile as others. > >> >> >> Now if you still have the old relay,you could find a friend who knows >> how to solder and has the tools to re-do the old relay and keep it as >> a spare. > > indeed - need a higher wattage iron for that relay - some big copper > parts in there that will suck the heat out of a lesser iron and make > crappy joints. > Yeah,I used a 60 W iron on mine. -- Jim Yanik jyanik at kua.net |
Re: 90 Accord main relay
jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in
news:AIadnS5H0cTONjfbnZ2dnUVZ_q2hnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t: > Jim Yanik wrote: >> Gene Wagenbreth <genewxxx@isi-OS4> wrote in >> news:f8d8a2$q0l@venera.isi.edu: >> >>> My thanks to this news group and several websites that decribe the >>> main relay problem. I had an intermittent problem with flashing >>> sports light and check engine light for 5 years. It was getting bad >>> enough that I was going to donate the car. Dealer wanted to >>> put in a new transmission. A mechanic said he replaced the main >>> rely. >> >> Did he charge you for it? >> >>> I finally took out the main relay myself and found bad solder >>> joints exactly as pictured on several web sites. Bought a new one >>> for $40 (too timid to try fixing solder myself). Problem is solved. >> >> Until the new relay gets the same problem. >> >> I believe that people who have resoldered their original relay have >> had no failures since,but a new relay may develop the same fractures. > > i think that's just a matter of time. i doubt anyone that's > re-soldered has had that relay in operation for an additional 10+ > years. IIRC,some people here have had MR failures 6-7 yrs after purchase. The MR on my 94 Integra GSR lasted longer than before it was re-soldered. (and failed about at 7 yrs) Too bad that car got stolen,stripped and torched last month. :-( Now I have a 2003 Sentra SE-R Spec V. > >> >> (makes me wonder if the relay maker used the right solder alloy for >> the job???) > > no, parts are subject to physical stress. a big no-no for solder > joints. bad design - depending on manufacturer objective! > I've been reading over on sci.electronics.design about the many different solder alloys manufacturers use on wave-soldering lines;some will fracture more easily than others,some may crystalize sooner.(and then fracture) The new lead-free solders are even worse;lots of NEW consumer products with fractured solder joints. Some solder alloys are not as ductile as others. > >> >> >> Now if you still have the old relay,you could find a friend who knows >> how to solder and has the tools to re-do the old relay and keep it as >> a spare. > > indeed - need a higher wattage iron for that relay - some big copper > parts in there that will suck the heat out of a lesser iron and make > crappy joints. > Yeah,I used a 60 W iron on mine. -- Jim Yanik jyanik at kua.net |
Re: 90 Accord main relay
jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in
news:AIadnS5H0cTONjfbnZ2dnUVZ_q2hnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t: > Jim Yanik wrote: >> Gene Wagenbreth <genewxxx@isi-OS4> wrote in >> news:f8d8a2$q0l@venera.isi.edu: >> >>> My thanks to this news group and several websites that decribe the >>> main relay problem. I had an intermittent problem with flashing >>> sports light and check engine light for 5 years. It was getting bad >>> enough that I was going to donate the car. Dealer wanted to >>> put in a new transmission. A mechanic said he replaced the main >>> rely. >> >> Did he charge you for it? >> >>> I finally took out the main relay myself and found bad solder >>> joints exactly as pictured on several web sites. Bought a new one >>> for $40 (too timid to try fixing solder myself). Problem is solved. >> >> Until the new relay gets the same problem. >> >> I believe that people who have resoldered their original relay have >> had no failures since,but a new relay may develop the same fractures. > > i think that's just a matter of time. i doubt anyone that's > re-soldered has had that relay in operation for an additional 10+ > years. IIRC,some people here have had MR failures 6-7 yrs after purchase. The MR on my 94 Integra GSR lasted longer than before it was re-soldered. (and failed about at 7 yrs) Too bad that car got stolen,stripped and torched last month. :-( Now I have a 2003 Sentra SE-R Spec V. > >> >> (makes me wonder if the relay maker used the right solder alloy for >> the job???) > > no, parts are subject to physical stress. a big no-no for solder > joints. bad design - depending on manufacturer objective! > I've been reading over on sci.electronics.design about the many different solder alloys manufacturers use on wave-soldering lines;some will fracture more easily than others,some may crystalize sooner.(and then fracture) The new lead-free solders are even worse;lots of NEW consumer products with fractured solder joints. Some solder alloys are not as ductile as others. > >> >> >> Now if you still have the old relay,you could find a friend who knows >> how to solder and has the tools to re-do the old relay and keep it as >> a spare. > > indeed - need a higher wattage iron for that relay - some big copper > parts in there that will suck the heat out of a lesser iron and make > crappy joints. > Yeah,I used a 60 W iron on mine. -- Jim Yanik jyanik at kua.net |
Re: 90 Accord main relay
Jim Yanik wrote:
> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in > news:AIadnS5H0cTONjfbnZ2dnUVZ_q2hnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t: > >> Jim Yanik wrote: >>> Gene Wagenbreth <genewxxx@isi-OS4> wrote in >>> news:f8d8a2$q0l@venera.isi.edu: >>> >>>> My thanks to this news group and several websites that decribe the >>>> main relay problem. I had an intermittent problem with flashing >>>> sports light and check engine light for 5 years. It was getting bad >>>> enough that I was going to donate the car. Dealer wanted to >>>> put in a new transmission. A mechanic said he replaced the main >>>> rely. >>> Did he charge you for it? >>> >>>> I finally took out the main relay myself and found bad solder >>>> joints exactly as pictured on several web sites. Bought a new one >>>> for $40 (too timid to try fixing solder myself). Problem is solved. >>> Until the new relay gets the same problem. >>> >>> I believe that people who have resoldered their original relay have >>> had no failures since,but a new relay may develop the same fractures. >> i think that's just a matter of time. i doubt anyone that's >> re-soldered has had that relay in operation for an additional 10+ >> years. > > IIRC,some people here have had MR failures 6-7 yrs after purchase. > > The MR on my 94 Integra GSR lasted longer than before it was re-soldered. > (and failed about at 7 yrs) > > Too bad that car got stolen,stripped and torched last month. :-( sad news indeed. > > Now I have a 2003 Sentra SE-R Spec V. how does that compare? > >>> (makes me wonder if the relay maker used the right solder alloy for >>> the job???) >> no, parts are subject to physical stress. a big no-no for solder >> joints. bad design - depending on manufacturer objective! >> > > I've been reading over on sci.electronics.design about the many different > solder alloys manufacturers use on wave-soldering lines;some will fracture > more easily than others,some may crystalize sooner.(and then fracture) > The new lead-free solders are even worse;lots of NEW consumer products with > fractured solder joints. Some solder alloys are not as ductile as others. true enough. eutectic tin/lead for me. >>> >>> Now if you still have the old relay,you could find a friend who knows >>> how to solder and has the tools to re-do the old relay and keep it as >>> a spare. >> indeed - need a higher wattage iron for that relay - some big copper >> parts in there that will suck the heat out of a lesser iron and make >> crappy joints. >> > > Yeah,I used a 60 W iron on mine. > perfect! |
Re: 90 Accord main relay
Jim Yanik wrote:
> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in > news:AIadnS5H0cTONjfbnZ2dnUVZ_q2hnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t: > >> Jim Yanik wrote: >>> Gene Wagenbreth <genewxxx@isi-OS4> wrote in >>> news:f8d8a2$q0l@venera.isi.edu: >>> >>>> My thanks to this news group and several websites that decribe the >>>> main relay problem. I had an intermittent problem with flashing >>>> sports light and check engine light for 5 years. It was getting bad >>>> enough that I was going to donate the car. Dealer wanted to >>>> put in a new transmission. A mechanic said he replaced the main >>>> rely. >>> Did he charge you for it? >>> >>>> I finally took out the main relay myself and found bad solder >>>> joints exactly as pictured on several web sites. Bought a new one >>>> for $40 (too timid to try fixing solder myself). Problem is solved. >>> Until the new relay gets the same problem. >>> >>> I believe that people who have resoldered their original relay have >>> had no failures since,but a new relay may develop the same fractures. >> i think that's just a matter of time. i doubt anyone that's >> re-soldered has had that relay in operation for an additional 10+ >> years. > > IIRC,some people here have had MR failures 6-7 yrs after purchase. > > The MR on my 94 Integra GSR lasted longer than before it was re-soldered. > (and failed about at 7 yrs) > > Too bad that car got stolen,stripped and torched last month. :-( sad news indeed. > > Now I have a 2003 Sentra SE-R Spec V. how does that compare? > >>> (makes me wonder if the relay maker used the right solder alloy for >>> the job???) >> no, parts are subject to physical stress. a big no-no for solder >> joints. bad design - depending on manufacturer objective! >> > > I've been reading over on sci.electronics.design about the many different > solder alloys manufacturers use on wave-soldering lines;some will fracture > more easily than others,some may crystalize sooner.(and then fracture) > The new lead-free solders are even worse;lots of NEW consumer products with > fractured solder joints. Some solder alloys are not as ductile as others. true enough. eutectic tin/lead for me. >>> >>> Now if you still have the old relay,you could find a friend who knows >>> how to solder and has the tools to re-do the old relay and keep it as >>> a spare. >> indeed - need a higher wattage iron for that relay - some big copper >> parts in there that will suck the heat out of a lesser iron and make >> crappy joints. >> > > Yeah,I used a 60 W iron on mine. > perfect! |
Re: 90 Accord main relay
Jim Yanik wrote:
> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in > news:AIadnS5H0cTONjfbnZ2dnUVZ_q2hnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t: > >> Jim Yanik wrote: >>> Gene Wagenbreth <genewxxx@isi-OS4> wrote in >>> news:f8d8a2$q0l@venera.isi.edu: >>> >>>> My thanks to this news group and several websites that decribe the >>>> main relay problem. I had an intermittent problem with flashing >>>> sports light and check engine light for 5 years. It was getting bad >>>> enough that I was going to donate the car. Dealer wanted to >>>> put in a new transmission. A mechanic said he replaced the main >>>> rely. >>> Did he charge you for it? >>> >>>> I finally took out the main relay myself and found bad solder >>>> joints exactly as pictured on several web sites. Bought a new one >>>> for $40 (too timid to try fixing solder myself). Problem is solved. >>> Until the new relay gets the same problem. >>> >>> I believe that people who have resoldered their original relay have >>> had no failures since,but a new relay may develop the same fractures. >> i think that's just a matter of time. i doubt anyone that's >> re-soldered has had that relay in operation for an additional 10+ >> years. > > IIRC,some people here have had MR failures 6-7 yrs after purchase. > > The MR on my 94 Integra GSR lasted longer than before it was re-soldered. > (and failed about at 7 yrs) > > Too bad that car got stolen,stripped and torched last month. :-( sad news indeed. > > Now I have a 2003 Sentra SE-R Spec V. how does that compare? > >>> (makes me wonder if the relay maker used the right solder alloy for >>> the job???) >> no, parts are subject to physical stress. a big no-no for solder >> joints. bad design - depending on manufacturer objective! >> > > I've been reading over on sci.electronics.design about the many different > solder alloys manufacturers use on wave-soldering lines;some will fracture > more easily than others,some may crystalize sooner.(and then fracture) > The new lead-free solders are even worse;lots of NEW consumer products with > fractured solder joints. Some solder alloys are not as ductile as others. true enough. eutectic tin/lead for me. >>> >>> Now if you still have the old relay,you could find a friend who knows >>> how to solder and has the tools to re-do the old relay and keep it as >>> a spare. >> indeed - need a higher wattage iron for that relay - some big copper >> parts in there that will suck the heat out of a lesser iron and make >> crappy joints. >> > > Yeah,I used a 60 W iron on mine. > perfect! |
Re: 90 Accord main relay
jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in
news:GsudnQZZj8wLKzfbnZ2dnUVZ_gmdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t: > Jim Yanik wrote: >> >> Now I have a 2003 Sentra SE-R Spec V. > > how does that compare? It's got plenty of power(rated 175 HP -before mods),tho I miss the hatchback and fold down rear seats of the Integra.One of the [previous owners installed headers,cold air intake,short throw shifter,cat-back exhaust(a tad noisy for me)and slightly lower springs/shocks.So,it handles well,but rides a bit stiff.It has 17" rims and 215/45 WR17 tires.6 speed manny tranny,and limited-slip diff. I really haven't wrung it out yet. It's hard to keep it to the speed limit! I would have gotten another Integra GS-R *IF* I had a garage to keep it safe.... you can install all sorts of alarms and protections,but they still will break in and tear the car up trying to take it,and then steal important pieces like the ECU,seats,etc. Apt.complexes are just mini-shopping malls for Midnite Auto thieves. At least the Spec V has RFID chipped keys. -- Jim Yanik jyanik at kua.net |
Re: 90 Accord main relay
jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in
news:GsudnQZZj8wLKzfbnZ2dnUVZ_gmdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t: > Jim Yanik wrote: >> >> Now I have a 2003 Sentra SE-R Spec V. > > how does that compare? It's got plenty of power(rated 175 HP -before mods),tho I miss the hatchback and fold down rear seats of the Integra.One of the [previous owners installed headers,cold air intake,short throw shifter,cat-back exhaust(a tad noisy for me)and slightly lower springs/shocks.So,it handles well,but rides a bit stiff.It has 17" rims and 215/45 WR17 tires.6 speed manny tranny,and limited-slip diff. I really haven't wrung it out yet. It's hard to keep it to the speed limit! I would have gotten another Integra GS-R *IF* I had a garage to keep it safe.... you can install all sorts of alarms and protections,but they still will break in and tear the car up trying to take it,and then steal important pieces like the ECU,seats,etc. Apt.complexes are just mini-shopping malls for Midnite Auto thieves. At least the Spec V has RFID chipped keys. -- Jim Yanik jyanik at kua.net |
Re: 90 Accord main relay
jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in
news:GsudnQZZj8wLKzfbnZ2dnUVZ_gmdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t: > Jim Yanik wrote: >> >> Now I have a 2003 Sentra SE-R Spec V. > > how does that compare? It's got plenty of power(rated 175 HP -before mods),tho I miss the hatchback and fold down rear seats of the Integra.One of the [previous owners installed headers,cold air intake,short throw shifter,cat-back exhaust(a tad noisy for me)and slightly lower springs/shocks.So,it handles well,but rides a bit stiff.It has 17" rims and 215/45 WR17 tires.6 speed manny tranny,and limited-slip diff. I really haven't wrung it out yet. It's hard to keep it to the speed limit! I would have gotten another Integra GS-R *IF* I had a garage to keep it safe.... you can install all sorts of alarms and protections,but they still will break in and tear the car up trying to take it,and then steal important pieces like the ECU,seats,etc. Apt.complexes are just mini-shopping malls for Midnite Auto thieves. At least the Spec V has RFID chipped keys. -- Jim Yanik jyanik at kua.net |
Re: 90 Accord main relay
Jim Yanik wrote:
> At least the Spec V has RFID chipped keys. This article may be of interest. > How a keyless car gets stolen isn't exactly a state secret; much of the > required knowledge is Basic Encryption 101. The authors of the Johns > Hopkins/RSA study needed only to capture two challenge-and-response pairs > from their intended target before cracking the encryption. In an example > from the paper, they wanted to see if they could swipe the passive code > off the keyless ignition device itself. To do so, the authors simulated a > car's ignition system (the RFID reader) on a laptop. By sitting close to > someone with a keyless ignition device in their pocket, the authors were > able to perform several scans in less than one second without the victim > knowing. They then began decrypting the sampled challenge-response pairs. > Using brute-force attack techniques, the researchers had the laptop try > different combinations of symbols until they found combinations that > matched. Once they had the matching codes, they could then predict the > sequence and were soon able to gain entrance to the target car and start > it. http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-3513_7-...xt&tag=nl.e501 |
Re: 90 Accord main relay
Jim Yanik wrote:
> At least the Spec V has RFID chipped keys. This article may be of interest. > How a keyless car gets stolen isn't exactly a state secret; much of the > required knowledge is Basic Encryption 101. The authors of the Johns > Hopkins/RSA study needed only to capture two challenge-and-response pairs > from their intended target before cracking the encryption. In an example > from the paper, they wanted to see if they could swipe the passive code > off the keyless ignition device itself. To do so, the authors simulated a > car's ignition system (the RFID reader) on a laptop. By sitting close to > someone with a keyless ignition device in their pocket, the authors were > able to perform several scans in less than one second without the victim > knowing. They then began decrypting the sampled challenge-response pairs. > Using brute-force attack techniques, the researchers had the laptop try > different combinations of symbols until they found combinations that > matched. Once they had the matching codes, they could then predict the > sequence and were soon able to gain entrance to the target car and start > it. http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-3513_7-...xt&tag=nl.e501 |
Re: 90 Accord main relay
Jim Yanik wrote:
> At least the Spec V has RFID chipped keys. This article may be of interest. > How a keyless car gets stolen isn't exactly a state secret; much of the > required knowledge is Basic Encryption 101. The authors of the Johns > Hopkins/RSA study needed only to capture two challenge-and-response pairs > from their intended target before cracking the encryption. In an example > from the paper, they wanted to see if they could swipe the passive code > off the keyless ignition device itself. To do so, the authors simulated a > car's ignition system (the RFID reader) on a laptop. By sitting close to > someone with a keyless ignition device in their pocket, the authors were > able to perform several scans in less than one second without the victim > knowing. They then began decrypting the sampled challenge-response pairs. > Using brute-force attack techniques, the researchers had the laptop try > different combinations of symbols until they found combinations that > matched. Once they had the matching codes, they could then predict the > sequence and were soon able to gain entrance to the target car and start > it. http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-3513_7-...xt&tag=nl.e501 |
Re: 90 Accord main relay
Eric wrote:
> Jim Yanik wrote: > >> At least the Spec V has RFID chipped keys. > > This article may be of interest. > >> How a keyless car gets stolen isn't exactly a state secret; much of the >> required knowledge is Basic Encryption 101. The authors of the Johns >> Hopkins/RSA study needed only to capture two challenge-and-response pairs >> from their intended target before cracking the encryption. In an example >> from the paper, they wanted to see if they could swipe the passive code >> off the keyless ignition device itself. To do so, the authors simulated a >> car's ignition system (the RFID reader) on a laptop. By sitting close to >> someone with a keyless ignition device in their pocket, the authors were >> able to perform several scans in less than one second without the victim >> knowing. They then began decrypting the sampled challenge-response pairs. >> Using brute-force attack techniques, the researchers had the laptop try >> different combinations of symbols until they found combinations that >> matched. Once they had the matching codes, they could then predict the >> sequence and were soon able to gain entrance to the target car and start >> it. > > http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-3513_7-...xt&tag=nl.e501 post that to seth on the "Honda Pilot EXL 2007 - remote start" thread from july 14. |
Re: 90 Accord main relay
Eric wrote:
> Jim Yanik wrote: > >> At least the Spec V has RFID chipped keys. > > This article may be of interest. > >> How a keyless car gets stolen isn't exactly a state secret; much of the >> required knowledge is Basic Encryption 101. The authors of the Johns >> Hopkins/RSA study needed only to capture two challenge-and-response pairs >> from their intended target before cracking the encryption. In an example >> from the paper, they wanted to see if they could swipe the passive code >> off the keyless ignition device itself. To do so, the authors simulated a >> car's ignition system (the RFID reader) on a laptop. By sitting close to >> someone with a keyless ignition device in their pocket, the authors were >> able to perform several scans in less than one second without the victim >> knowing. They then began decrypting the sampled challenge-response pairs. >> Using brute-force attack techniques, the researchers had the laptop try >> different combinations of symbols until they found combinations that >> matched. Once they had the matching codes, they could then predict the >> sequence and were soon able to gain entrance to the target car and start >> it. > > http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-3513_7-...xt&tag=nl.e501 post that to seth on the "Honda Pilot EXL 2007 - remote start" thread from july 14. |
Re: 90 Accord main relay
Eric wrote:
> Jim Yanik wrote: > >> At least the Spec V has RFID chipped keys. > > This article may be of interest. > >> How a keyless car gets stolen isn't exactly a state secret; much of the >> required knowledge is Basic Encryption 101. The authors of the Johns >> Hopkins/RSA study needed only to capture two challenge-and-response pairs >> from their intended target before cracking the encryption. In an example >> from the paper, they wanted to see if they could swipe the passive code >> off the keyless ignition device itself. To do so, the authors simulated a >> car's ignition system (the RFID reader) on a laptop. By sitting close to >> someone with a keyless ignition device in their pocket, the authors were >> able to perform several scans in less than one second without the victim >> knowing. They then began decrypting the sampled challenge-response pairs. >> Using brute-force attack techniques, the researchers had the laptop try >> different combinations of symbols until they found combinations that >> matched. Once they had the matching codes, they could then predict the >> sequence and were soon able to gain entrance to the target car and start >> it. > > http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-3513_7-...xt&tag=nl.e501 post that to seth on the "Honda Pilot EXL 2007 - remote start" thread from july 14. |
Re: 90 Accord main relay
"jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
news:ucudnfaJCZ0WDzHbnZ2dnUVZ_qLinZ2d@speakeasy.ne t... > Eric wrote: >> Jim Yanik wrote: >> >>> At least the Spec V has RFID chipped keys. >> >> This article may be of interest. >> >>> How a keyless car gets stolen isn't exactly a state secret; much of the >>> required knowledge is Basic Encryption 101. The authors of the Johns >>> Hopkins/RSA study needed only to capture two challenge-and-response >>> pairs >>> from their intended target before cracking the encryption. In an example >>> from the paper, they wanted to see if they could swipe the passive code >>> off the keyless ignition device itself. To do so, the authors simulated >>> a >>> car's ignition system (the RFID reader) on a laptop. By sitting close to >>> someone with a keyless ignition device in their pocket, the authors were >>> able to perform several scans in less than one second without the victim >>> knowing. They then began decrypting the sampled challenge-response >>> pairs. >>> Using brute-force attack techniques, the researchers had the laptop try >>> different combinations of symbols until they found combinations that >>> matched. Once they had the matching codes, they could then predict the >>> sequence and were soon able to gain entrance to the target car and start >>> it. >> >> http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-3513_7-...xt&tag=nl.e501 > > post that to seth on the "Honda Pilot EXL 2007 - remote start" thread from > july 14. Why post it to me? You do know that the exploit being discussed above has nothing to do with a remote starter as they don't use an RFID challenge/response signaling system, don't you? To clone a remote starter remote control signal you would have to be scanning/reading the code while the button is repeatedly pressed a number of times till the scanner could figure out the algorithm used for the code hopping. They don't transmit when the receive a challenge signal. If you want to be paranoid about the article mentioned above, then the way to protect oneself is to have their stock Honda (or any other brand) key stored in a lead lined key case when walking around with it in their pocket. The car alarm, remote starter, keyless entry unit, to be cloned would require first getting your hands on the actual FOB, in which case you don't need to clone it as you have the original. All that aside, I'm guessing the "post that to seth on the "Honda Pilot EXL 2007 - remote start" thread from july 14." was more an attempt at being obnoxious than anything else. I know I never said the system was invulnerable, just not a high-risk threat. Having one's head or house destroyed by a piece of falling debris is also possible, but again, not likely and therefore I'm not losing any sleep worrying about it. Coincidently, neither my home owners insurance, car insurance or life insurance has any clause excluding space debris or remote starters. If they thought it was a high risk possibility you better believe they would have a clause and an additional cost rider as a result to make more money off the customer. |
Re: 90 Accord main relay
"jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
news:ucudnfaJCZ0WDzHbnZ2dnUVZ_qLinZ2d@speakeasy.ne t... > Eric wrote: >> Jim Yanik wrote: >> >>> At least the Spec V has RFID chipped keys. >> >> This article may be of interest. >> >>> How a keyless car gets stolen isn't exactly a state secret; much of the >>> required knowledge is Basic Encryption 101. The authors of the Johns >>> Hopkins/RSA study needed only to capture two challenge-and-response >>> pairs >>> from their intended target before cracking the encryption. In an example >>> from the paper, they wanted to see if they could swipe the passive code >>> off the keyless ignition device itself. To do so, the authors simulated >>> a >>> car's ignition system (the RFID reader) on a laptop. By sitting close to >>> someone with a keyless ignition device in their pocket, the authors were >>> able to perform several scans in less than one second without the victim >>> knowing. They then began decrypting the sampled challenge-response >>> pairs. >>> Using brute-force attack techniques, the researchers had the laptop try >>> different combinations of symbols until they found combinations that >>> matched. Once they had the matching codes, they could then predict the >>> sequence and were soon able to gain entrance to the target car and start >>> it. >> >> http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-3513_7-...xt&tag=nl.e501 > > post that to seth on the "Honda Pilot EXL 2007 - remote start" thread from > july 14. Why post it to me? You do know that the exploit being discussed above has nothing to do with a remote starter as they don't use an RFID challenge/response signaling system, don't you? To clone a remote starter remote control signal you would have to be scanning/reading the code while the button is repeatedly pressed a number of times till the scanner could figure out the algorithm used for the code hopping. They don't transmit when the receive a challenge signal. If you want to be paranoid about the article mentioned above, then the way to protect oneself is to have their stock Honda (or any other brand) key stored in a lead lined key case when walking around with it in their pocket. The car alarm, remote starter, keyless entry unit, to be cloned would require first getting your hands on the actual FOB, in which case you don't need to clone it as you have the original. All that aside, I'm guessing the "post that to seth on the "Honda Pilot EXL 2007 - remote start" thread from july 14." was more an attempt at being obnoxious than anything else. I know I never said the system was invulnerable, just not a high-risk threat. Having one's head or house destroyed by a piece of falling debris is also possible, but again, not likely and therefore I'm not losing any sleep worrying about it. Coincidently, neither my home owners insurance, car insurance or life insurance has any clause excluding space debris or remote starters. If they thought it was a high risk possibility you better believe they would have a clause and an additional cost rider as a result to make more money off the customer. |
Re: 90 Accord main relay
"jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
news:ucudnfaJCZ0WDzHbnZ2dnUVZ_qLinZ2d@speakeasy.ne t... > Eric wrote: >> Jim Yanik wrote: >> >>> At least the Spec V has RFID chipped keys. >> >> This article may be of interest. >> >>> How a keyless car gets stolen isn't exactly a state secret; much of the >>> required knowledge is Basic Encryption 101. The authors of the Johns >>> Hopkins/RSA study needed only to capture two challenge-and-response >>> pairs >>> from their intended target before cracking the encryption. In an example >>> from the paper, they wanted to see if they could swipe the passive code >>> off the keyless ignition device itself. To do so, the authors simulated >>> a >>> car's ignition system (the RFID reader) on a laptop. By sitting close to >>> someone with a keyless ignition device in their pocket, the authors were >>> able to perform several scans in less than one second without the victim >>> knowing. They then began decrypting the sampled challenge-response >>> pairs. >>> Using brute-force attack techniques, the researchers had the laptop try >>> different combinations of symbols until they found combinations that >>> matched. Once they had the matching codes, they could then predict the >>> sequence and were soon able to gain entrance to the target car and start >>> it. >> >> http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-3513_7-...xt&tag=nl.e501 > > post that to seth on the "Honda Pilot EXL 2007 - remote start" thread from > july 14. Why post it to me? You do know that the exploit being discussed above has nothing to do with a remote starter as they don't use an RFID challenge/response signaling system, don't you? To clone a remote starter remote control signal you would have to be scanning/reading the code while the button is repeatedly pressed a number of times till the scanner could figure out the algorithm used for the code hopping. They don't transmit when the receive a challenge signal. If you want to be paranoid about the article mentioned above, then the way to protect oneself is to have their stock Honda (or any other brand) key stored in a lead lined key case when walking around with it in their pocket. The car alarm, remote starter, keyless entry unit, to be cloned would require first getting your hands on the actual FOB, in which case you don't need to clone it as you have the original. All that aside, I'm guessing the "post that to seth on the "Honda Pilot EXL 2007 - remote start" thread from july 14." was more an attempt at being obnoxious than anything else. I know I never said the system was invulnerable, just not a high-risk threat. Having one's head or house destroyed by a piece of falling debris is also possible, but again, not likely and therefore I'm not losing any sleep worrying about it. Coincidently, neither my home owners insurance, car insurance or life insurance has any clause excluding space debris or remote starters. If they thought it was a high risk possibility you better believe they would have a clause and an additional cost rider as a result to make more money off the customer. |
Re: 90 Accord main relay
Seth wrote:
> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message > news:ucudnfaJCZ0WDzHbnZ2dnUVZ_qLinZ2d@speakeasy.ne t... >> Eric wrote: >>> Jim Yanik wrote: >>> >>>> At least the Spec V has RFID chipped keys. >>> >>> This article may be of interest. >>> >>>> How a keyless car gets stolen isn't exactly a state secret; much of the >>>> required knowledge is Basic Encryption 101. The authors of the Johns >>>> Hopkins/RSA study needed only to capture two challenge-and-response >>>> pairs >>>> from their intended target before cracking the encryption. In an >>>> example >>>> from the paper, they wanted to see if they could swipe the passive code >>>> off the keyless ignition device itself. To do so, the authors >>>> simulated a >>>> car's ignition system (the RFID reader) on a laptop. By sitting >>>> close to >>>> someone with a keyless ignition device in their pocket, the authors >>>> were >>>> able to perform several scans in less than one second without the >>>> victim >>>> knowing. They then began decrypting the sampled challenge-response >>>> pairs. >>>> Using brute-force attack techniques, the researchers had the laptop try >>>> different combinations of symbols until they found combinations that >>>> matched. Once they had the matching codes, they could then predict the >>>> sequence and were soon able to gain entrance to the target car and >>>> start >>>> it. >>> >>> http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-3513_7-...xt&tag=nl.e501 >> >> post that to seth on the "Honda Pilot EXL 2007 - remote start" thread >> from july 14. > > > Why post it to me? You do know that the exploit being discussed above > has nothing to do with a remote starter as they don't use an RFID > challenge/response signaling system, don't you? > > To clone a remote starter remote control signal you would have to be > scanning/reading the code while the button is repeatedly pressed a > number of times till the scanner could figure out the algorithm used for > the code hopping. They don't transmit when the receive a challenge signal. > > If you want to be paranoid about the article mentioned above, then the > way to protect oneself is to have their stock Honda (or any other brand) > key stored in a lead lined key case when walking around with it in their > pocket. The car alarm, remote starter, keyless entry unit, to be cloned > would require first getting your hands on the actual FOB, in which case > you don't need to clone it as you have the original. > > All that aside, I'm guessing the "post that to seth on the "Honda Pilot > EXL 2007 - remote start" thread from july 14." was more an attempt at > being obnoxious than anything else. I know I never said the system was > invulnerable, just not a high-risk threat. Having one's head or house > destroyed by a piece of falling debris is also possible, but again, not > likely and therefore I'm not losing any sleep worrying about it. > Coincidently, neither my home owners insurance, car insurance or life > insurance has any clause excluding space debris or remote starters. If > they thought it was a high risk possibility you better believe they > would have a clause and an additional cost rider as a result to make > more money off the customer. > seth, with respect, you're welcome to justify the remote starters you sell any way you want. but in terms of how the key [and replication system] works, you don't understand and are therefore propagating misinformation. that's not to say you haven't read the marketing blurb and can repeat it, but in terms of mechanism, you're still unclear. it's a challenge/response mechanism - just like you have with computer network authentication. on startup, ecu signals for code with token, key hashes with it's own unique code that the ecu has been programmed to recognize, then transmits it back. if the token has been hashed correctly, the ecu will arm the ignition system. all an outsider has to do to break in is, well, follow the procedure spelled out in the article. the remote starter performs challenge/response just like the key. are you welcome to have on in your own vehicle? sure. but please don't say they're impossible to hack because they're not. just like the key is not. the remote starter makes vehicle theft easier because there's a "key" permanently attached to the vehicle. as i said at the start, some people do this stuff for the technical challenge. hence the article. which i didn't write. |
Re: 90 Accord main relay
Seth wrote:
> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message > news:ucudnfaJCZ0WDzHbnZ2dnUVZ_qLinZ2d@speakeasy.ne t... >> Eric wrote: >>> Jim Yanik wrote: >>> >>>> At least the Spec V has RFID chipped keys. >>> >>> This article may be of interest. >>> >>>> How a keyless car gets stolen isn't exactly a state secret; much of the >>>> required knowledge is Basic Encryption 101. The authors of the Johns >>>> Hopkins/RSA study needed only to capture two challenge-and-response >>>> pairs >>>> from their intended target before cracking the encryption. In an >>>> example >>>> from the paper, they wanted to see if they could swipe the passive code >>>> off the keyless ignition device itself. To do so, the authors >>>> simulated a >>>> car's ignition system (the RFID reader) on a laptop. By sitting >>>> close to >>>> someone with a keyless ignition device in their pocket, the authors >>>> were >>>> able to perform several scans in less than one second without the >>>> victim >>>> knowing. They then began decrypting the sampled challenge-response >>>> pairs. >>>> Using brute-force attack techniques, the researchers had the laptop try >>>> different combinations of symbols until they found combinations that >>>> matched. Once they had the matching codes, they could then predict the >>>> sequence and were soon able to gain entrance to the target car and >>>> start >>>> it. >>> >>> http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-3513_7-...xt&tag=nl.e501 >> >> post that to seth on the "Honda Pilot EXL 2007 - remote start" thread >> from july 14. > > > Why post it to me? You do know that the exploit being discussed above > has nothing to do with a remote starter as they don't use an RFID > challenge/response signaling system, don't you? > > To clone a remote starter remote control signal you would have to be > scanning/reading the code while the button is repeatedly pressed a > number of times till the scanner could figure out the algorithm used for > the code hopping. They don't transmit when the receive a challenge signal. > > If you want to be paranoid about the article mentioned above, then the > way to protect oneself is to have their stock Honda (or any other brand) > key stored in a lead lined key case when walking around with it in their > pocket. The car alarm, remote starter, keyless entry unit, to be cloned > would require first getting your hands on the actual FOB, in which case > you don't need to clone it as you have the original. > > All that aside, I'm guessing the "post that to seth on the "Honda Pilot > EXL 2007 - remote start" thread from july 14." was more an attempt at > being obnoxious than anything else. I know I never said the system was > invulnerable, just not a high-risk threat. Having one's head or house > destroyed by a piece of falling debris is also possible, but again, not > likely and therefore I'm not losing any sleep worrying about it. > Coincidently, neither my home owners insurance, car insurance or life > insurance has any clause excluding space debris or remote starters. If > they thought it was a high risk possibility you better believe they > would have a clause and an additional cost rider as a result to make > more money off the customer. > seth, with respect, you're welcome to justify the remote starters you sell any way you want. but in terms of how the key [and replication system] works, you don't understand and are therefore propagating misinformation. that's not to say you haven't read the marketing blurb and can repeat it, but in terms of mechanism, you're still unclear. it's a challenge/response mechanism - just like you have with computer network authentication. on startup, ecu signals for code with token, key hashes with it's own unique code that the ecu has been programmed to recognize, then transmits it back. if the token has been hashed correctly, the ecu will arm the ignition system. all an outsider has to do to break in is, well, follow the procedure spelled out in the article. the remote starter performs challenge/response just like the key. are you welcome to have on in your own vehicle? sure. but please don't say they're impossible to hack because they're not. just like the key is not. the remote starter makes vehicle theft easier because there's a "key" permanently attached to the vehicle. as i said at the start, some people do this stuff for the technical challenge. hence the article. which i didn't write. |
Re: 90 Accord main relay
Seth wrote:
> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message > news:ucudnfaJCZ0WDzHbnZ2dnUVZ_qLinZ2d@speakeasy.ne t... >> Eric wrote: >>> Jim Yanik wrote: >>> >>>> At least the Spec V has RFID chipped keys. >>> >>> This article may be of interest. >>> >>>> How a keyless car gets stolen isn't exactly a state secret; much of the >>>> required knowledge is Basic Encryption 101. The authors of the Johns >>>> Hopkins/RSA study needed only to capture two challenge-and-response >>>> pairs >>>> from their intended target before cracking the encryption. In an >>>> example >>>> from the paper, they wanted to see if they could swipe the passive code >>>> off the keyless ignition device itself. To do so, the authors >>>> simulated a >>>> car's ignition system (the RFID reader) on a laptop. By sitting >>>> close to >>>> someone with a keyless ignition device in their pocket, the authors >>>> were >>>> able to perform several scans in less than one second without the >>>> victim >>>> knowing. They then began decrypting the sampled challenge-response >>>> pairs. >>>> Using brute-force attack techniques, the researchers had the laptop try >>>> different combinations of symbols until they found combinations that >>>> matched. Once they had the matching codes, they could then predict the >>>> sequence and were soon able to gain entrance to the target car and >>>> start >>>> it. >>> >>> http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-3513_7-...xt&tag=nl.e501 >> >> post that to seth on the "Honda Pilot EXL 2007 - remote start" thread >> from july 14. > > > Why post it to me? You do know that the exploit being discussed above > has nothing to do with a remote starter as they don't use an RFID > challenge/response signaling system, don't you? > > To clone a remote starter remote control signal you would have to be > scanning/reading the code while the button is repeatedly pressed a > number of times till the scanner could figure out the algorithm used for > the code hopping. They don't transmit when the receive a challenge signal. > > If you want to be paranoid about the article mentioned above, then the > way to protect oneself is to have their stock Honda (or any other brand) > key stored in a lead lined key case when walking around with it in their > pocket. The car alarm, remote starter, keyless entry unit, to be cloned > would require first getting your hands on the actual FOB, in which case > you don't need to clone it as you have the original. > > All that aside, I'm guessing the "post that to seth on the "Honda Pilot > EXL 2007 - remote start" thread from july 14." was more an attempt at > being obnoxious than anything else. I know I never said the system was > invulnerable, just not a high-risk threat. Having one's head or house > destroyed by a piece of falling debris is also possible, but again, not > likely and therefore I'm not losing any sleep worrying about it. > Coincidently, neither my home owners insurance, car insurance or life > insurance has any clause excluding space debris or remote starters. If > they thought it was a high risk possibility you better believe they > would have a clause and an additional cost rider as a result to make > more money off the customer. > seth, with respect, you're welcome to justify the remote starters you sell any way you want. but in terms of how the key [and replication system] works, you don't understand and are therefore propagating misinformation. that's not to say you haven't read the marketing blurb and can repeat it, but in terms of mechanism, you're still unclear. it's a challenge/response mechanism - just like you have with computer network authentication. on startup, ecu signals for code with token, key hashes with it's own unique code that the ecu has been programmed to recognize, then transmits it back. if the token has been hashed correctly, the ecu will arm the ignition system. all an outsider has to do to break in is, well, follow the procedure spelled out in the article. the remote starter performs challenge/response just like the key. are you welcome to have on in your own vehicle? sure. but please don't say they're impossible to hack because they're not. just like the key is not. the remote starter makes vehicle theft easier because there's a "key" permanently attached to the vehicle. as i said at the start, some people do this stuff for the technical challenge. hence the article. which i didn't write. |
Re: 90 Accord main relay
"jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
news:YJydnc8tq8nb0TDbnZ2dnUVZ_vumnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t... > Seth wrote: >> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message >> news:ucudnfaJCZ0WDzHbnZ2dnUVZ_qLinZ2d@speakeasy.ne t... >>> Eric wrote: >>>> Jim Yanik wrote: >>>> >>>>> At least the Spec V has RFID chipped keys. >>>> >>>> This article may be of interest. >>>> >>>>> How a keyless car gets stolen isn't exactly a state secret; much of >>>>> the >>>>> required knowledge is Basic Encryption 101. The authors of the Johns >>>>> Hopkins/RSA study needed only to capture two challenge-and-response >>>>> pairs >>>>> from their intended target before cracking the encryption. In an >>>>> example >>>>> from the paper, they wanted to see if they could swipe the passive >>>>> code >>>>> off the keyless ignition device itself. To do so, the authors >>>>> simulated a >>>>> car's ignition system (the RFID reader) on a laptop. By sitting close >>>>> to >>>>> someone with a keyless ignition device in their pocket, the authors >>>>> were >>>>> able to perform several scans in less than one second without the >>>>> victim >>>>> knowing. They then began decrypting the sampled challenge-response >>>>> pairs. >>>>> Using brute-force attack techniques, the researchers had the laptop >>>>> try >>>>> different combinations of symbols until they found combinations that >>>>> matched. Once they had the matching codes, they could then predict the >>>>> sequence and were soon able to gain entrance to the target car and >>>>> start >>>>> it. >>>> >>>> http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-3513_7-...xt&tag=nl.e501 >>> >>> post that to seth on the "Honda Pilot EXL 2007 - remote start" thread >>> from july 14. >> >> >> Why post it to me? You do know that the exploit being discussed above >> has nothing to do with a remote starter as they don't use an RFID >> challenge/response signaling system, don't you? >> >> To clone a remote starter remote control signal you would have to be >> scanning/reading the code while the button is repeatedly pressed a number >> of times till the scanner could figure out the algorithm used for the >> code hopping. They don't transmit when the receive a challenge signal. >> >> If you want to be paranoid about the article mentioned above, then the >> way to protect oneself is to have their stock Honda (or any other brand) >> key stored in a lead lined key case when walking around with it in their >> pocket. The car alarm, remote starter, keyless entry unit, to be cloned >> would require first getting your hands on the actual FOB, in which case >> you don't need to clone it as you have the original. >> >> All that aside, I'm guessing the "post that to seth on the "Honda Pilot >> EXL 2007 - remote start" thread from july 14." was more an attempt at >> being obnoxious than anything else. I know I never said the system was >> invulnerable, just not a high-risk threat. Having one's head or house >> destroyed by a piece of falling debris is also possible, but again, not >> likely and therefore I'm not losing any sleep worrying about it. >> Coincidently, neither my home owners insurance, car insurance or life >> insurance has any clause excluding space debris or remote starters. If >> they thought it was a high risk possibility you better believe they would >> have a clause and an additional cost rider as a result to make more money >> off the customer. >> > > seth, with respect, you're welcome to justify the remote starters you sell > any way you want. Haven't sold them in years. > but in terms of how the key [and replication system] works, you don't > understand and are therefore propagating misinformation. that's not to > say you haven't read the marketing blurb and can repeat it, but in terms > of mechanism, you're still unclear. The key (Honda key from factory) is challenge/response. I didn't say otherwise. The FOB that controls the remote starter is not. It is purely 1-way, rolling code (also called code hopping). > it's a challenge/response mechanism - just like you have with computer > network authentication. on startup, ecu signals for code with token, key > hashes with it's own unique code that the ecu has been programmed to > recognize, then transmits it back. if the token has been hashed > correctly, the ecu will arm the ignition system. all an outsider has to > do to break in is, well, follow the procedure spelled out in the article. > the remote starter performs challenge/response just like the key. Actually not the same. It (the remote starter RFID over-ride module) is wired direct into the lines that the RFID receiver uses to feed the vehicle ECU. > are you welcome to have on in your own vehicle? sure. but please don't > say they're impossible to hack because they're not. You need to work on your reading comprehension. Please show me where I said they were impossible to hack. I said it is a small risk due to the complexity of doing it vs. otehr easier methods of stealing ones car. Big difference. Re-read what I wrote and you will see that. just like the key > is not. the remote starter makes vehicle theft easier because there's a > "key" permanently attached to the vehicle. > as i said at the start, some people do this stuff for the technical > challenge. hence the article. which i didn't write. |
Re: 90 Accord main relay
"jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
news:YJydnc8tq8nb0TDbnZ2dnUVZ_vumnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t... > Seth wrote: >> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message >> news:ucudnfaJCZ0WDzHbnZ2dnUVZ_qLinZ2d@speakeasy.ne t... >>> Eric wrote: >>>> Jim Yanik wrote: >>>> >>>>> At least the Spec V has RFID chipped keys. >>>> >>>> This article may be of interest. >>>> >>>>> How a keyless car gets stolen isn't exactly a state secret; much of >>>>> the >>>>> required knowledge is Basic Encryption 101. The authors of the Johns >>>>> Hopkins/RSA study needed only to capture two challenge-and-response >>>>> pairs >>>>> from their intended target before cracking the encryption. In an >>>>> example >>>>> from the paper, they wanted to see if they could swipe the passive >>>>> code >>>>> off the keyless ignition device itself. To do so, the authors >>>>> simulated a >>>>> car's ignition system (the RFID reader) on a laptop. By sitting close >>>>> to >>>>> someone with a keyless ignition device in their pocket, the authors >>>>> were >>>>> able to perform several scans in less than one second without the >>>>> victim >>>>> knowing. They then began decrypting the sampled challenge-response >>>>> pairs. >>>>> Using brute-force attack techniques, the researchers had the laptop >>>>> try >>>>> different combinations of symbols until they found combinations that >>>>> matched. Once they had the matching codes, they could then predict the >>>>> sequence and were soon able to gain entrance to the target car and >>>>> start >>>>> it. >>>> >>>> http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-3513_7-...xt&tag=nl.e501 >>> >>> post that to seth on the "Honda Pilot EXL 2007 - remote start" thread >>> from july 14. >> >> >> Why post it to me? You do know that the exploit being discussed above >> has nothing to do with a remote starter as they don't use an RFID >> challenge/response signaling system, don't you? >> >> To clone a remote starter remote control signal you would have to be >> scanning/reading the code while the button is repeatedly pressed a number >> of times till the scanner could figure out the algorithm used for the >> code hopping. They don't transmit when the receive a challenge signal. >> >> If you want to be paranoid about the article mentioned above, then the >> way to protect oneself is to have their stock Honda (or any other brand) >> key stored in a lead lined key case when walking around with it in their >> pocket. The car alarm, remote starter, keyless entry unit, to be cloned >> would require first getting your hands on the actual FOB, in which case >> you don't need to clone it as you have the original. >> >> All that aside, I'm guessing the "post that to seth on the "Honda Pilot >> EXL 2007 - remote start" thread from july 14." was more an attempt at >> being obnoxious than anything else. I know I never said the system was >> invulnerable, just not a high-risk threat. Having one's head or house >> destroyed by a piece of falling debris is also possible, but again, not >> likely and therefore I'm not losing any sleep worrying about it. >> Coincidently, neither my home owners insurance, car insurance or life >> insurance has any clause excluding space debris or remote starters. If >> they thought it was a high risk possibility you better believe they would >> have a clause and an additional cost rider as a result to make more money >> off the customer. >> > > seth, with respect, you're welcome to justify the remote starters you sell > any way you want. Haven't sold them in years. > but in terms of how the key [and replication system] works, you don't > understand and are therefore propagating misinformation. that's not to > say you haven't read the marketing blurb and can repeat it, but in terms > of mechanism, you're still unclear. The key (Honda key from factory) is challenge/response. I didn't say otherwise. The FOB that controls the remote starter is not. It is purely 1-way, rolling code (also called code hopping). > it's a challenge/response mechanism - just like you have with computer > network authentication. on startup, ecu signals for code with token, key > hashes with it's own unique code that the ecu has been programmed to > recognize, then transmits it back. if the token has been hashed > correctly, the ecu will arm the ignition system. all an outsider has to > do to break in is, well, follow the procedure spelled out in the article. > the remote starter performs challenge/response just like the key. Actually not the same. It (the remote starter RFID over-ride module) is wired direct into the lines that the RFID receiver uses to feed the vehicle ECU. > are you welcome to have on in your own vehicle? sure. but please don't > say they're impossible to hack because they're not. You need to work on your reading comprehension. Please show me where I said they were impossible to hack. I said it is a small risk due to the complexity of doing it vs. otehr easier methods of stealing ones car. Big difference. Re-read what I wrote and you will see that. just like the key > is not. the remote starter makes vehicle theft easier because there's a > "key" permanently attached to the vehicle. > as i said at the start, some people do this stuff for the technical > challenge. hence the article. which i didn't write. |
Re: 90 Accord main relay
"jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
news:YJydnc8tq8nb0TDbnZ2dnUVZ_vumnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t... > Seth wrote: >> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message >> news:ucudnfaJCZ0WDzHbnZ2dnUVZ_qLinZ2d@speakeasy.ne t... >>> Eric wrote: >>>> Jim Yanik wrote: >>>> >>>>> At least the Spec V has RFID chipped keys. >>>> >>>> This article may be of interest. >>>> >>>>> How a keyless car gets stolen isn't exactly a state secret; much of >>>>> the >>>>> required knowledge is Basic Encryption 101. The authors of the Johns >>>>> Hopkins/RSA study needed only to capture two challenge-and-response >>>>> pairs >>>>> from their intended target before cracking the encryption. In an >>>>> example >>>>> from the paper, they wanted to see if they could swipe the passive >>>>> code >>>>> off the keyless ignition device itself. To do so, the authors >>>>> simulated a >>>>> car's ignition system (the RFID reader) on a laptop. By sitting close >>>>> to >>>>> someone with a keyless ignition device in their pocket, the authors >>>>> were >>>>> able to perform several scans in less than one second without the >>>>> victim >>>>> knowing. They then began decrypting the sampled challenge-response >>>>> pairs. >>>>> Using brute-force attack techniques, the researchers had the laptop >>>>> try >>>>> different combinations of symbols until they found combinations that >>>>> matched. Once they had the matching codes, they could then predict the >>>>> sequence and were soon able to gain entrance to the target car and >>>>> start >>>>> it. >>>> >>>> http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-3513_7-...xt&tag=nl.e501 >>> >>> post that to seth on the "Honda Pilot EXL 2007 - remote start" thread >>> from july 14. >> >> >> Why post it to me? You do know that the exploit being discussed above >> has nothing to do with a remote starter as they don't use an RFID >> challenge/response signaling system, don't you? >> >> To clone a remote starter remote control signal you would have to be >> scanning/reading the code while the button is repeatedly pressed a number >> of times till the scanner could figure out the algorithm used for the >> code hopping. They don't transmit when the receive a challenge signal. >> >> If you want to be paranoid about the article mentioned above, then the >> way to protect oneself is to have their stock Honda (or any other brand) >> key stored in a lead lined key case when walking around with it in their >> pocket. The car alarm, remote starter, keyless entry unit, to be cloned >> would require first getting your hands on the actual FOB, in which case >> you don't need to clone it as you have the original. >> >> All that aside, I'm guessing the "post that to seth on the "Honda Pilot >> EXL 2007 - remote start" thread from july 14." was more an attempt at >> being obnoxious than anything else. I know I never said the system was >> invulnerable, just not a high-risk threat. Having one's head or house >> destroyed by a piece of falling debris is also possible, but again, not >> likely and therefore I'm not losing any sleep worrying about it. >> Coincidently, neither my home owners insurance, car insurance or life >> insurance has any clause excluding space debris or remote starters. If >> they thought it was a high risk possibility you better believe they would >> have a clause and an additional cost rider as a result to make more money >> off the customer. >> > > seth, with respect, you're welcome to justify the remote starters you sell > any way you want. Haven't sold them in years. > but in terms of how the key [and replication system] works, you don't > understand and are therefore propagating misinformation. that's not to > say you haven't read the marketing blurb and can repeat it, but in terms > of mechanism, you're still unclear. The key (Honda key from factory) is challenge/response. I didn't say otherwise. The FOB that controls the remote starter is not. It is purely 1-way, rolling code (also called code hopping). > it's a challenge/response mechanism - just like you have with computer > network authentication. on startup, ecu signals for code with token, key > hashes with it's own unique code that the ecu has been programmed to > recognize, then transmits it back. if the token has been hashed > correctly, the ecu will arm the ignition system. all an outsider has to > do to break in is, well, follow the procedure spelled out in the article. > the remote starter performs challenge/response just like the key. Actually not the same. It (the remote starter RFID over-ride module) is wired direct into the lines that the RFID receiver uses to feed the vehicle ECU. > are you welcome to have on in your own vehicle? sure. but please don't > say they're impossible to hack because they're not. You need to work on your reading comprehension. Please show me where I said they were impossible to hack. I said it is a small risk due to the complexity of doing it vs. otehr easier methods of stealing ones car. Big difference. Re-read what I wrote and you will see that. just like the key > is not. the remote starter makes vehicle theft easier because there's a > "key" permanently attached to the vehicle. > as i said at the start, some people do this stuff for the technical > challenge. hence the article. which i didn't write. |
Re: 90 Accord main relay
Seth wrote:
> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message > news:YJydnc8tq8nb0TDbnZ2dnUVZ_vumnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t... >> Seth wrote: >>> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message >>> news:ucudnfaJCZ0WDzHbnZ2dnUVZ_qLinZ2d@speakeasy.ne t... >>>> Eric wrote: >>>>> Jim Yanik wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> At least the Spec V has RFID chipped keys. >>>>> >>>>> This article may be of interest. >>>>> >>>>>> How a keyless car gets stolen isn't exactly a state secret; much >>>>>> of the >>>>>> required knowledge is Basic Encryption 101. The authors of the Johns >>>>>> Hopkins/RSA study needed only to capture two >>>>>> challenge-and-response pairs >>>>>> from their intended target before cracking the encryption. In an >>>>>> example >>>>>> from the paper, they wanted to see if they could swipe the passive >>>>>> code >>>>>> off the keyless ignition device itself. To do so, the authors >>>>>> simulated a >>>>>> car's ignition system (the RFID reader) on a laptop. By sitting >>>>>> close to >>>>>> someone with a keyless ignition device in their pocket, the >>>>>> authors were >>>>>> able to perform several scans in less than one second without the >>>>>> victim >>>>>> knowing. They then began decrypting the sampled challenge-response >>>>>> pairs. >>>>>> Using brute-force attack techniques, the researchers had the >>>>>> laptop try >>>>>> different combinations of symbols until they found combinations that >>>>>> matched. Once they had the matching codes, they could then predict >>>>>> the >>>>>> sequence and were soon able to gain entrance to the target car and >>>>>> start >>>>>> it. >>>>> >>>>> http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-3513_7-...xt&tag=nl.e501 >>>> >>>> post that to seth on the "Honda Pilot EXL 2007 - remote start" >>>> thread from july 14. >>> >>> >>> Why post it to me? You do know that the exploit being discussed >>> above has nothing to do with a remote starter as they don't use an >>> RFID challenge/response signaling system, don't you? >>> >>> To clone a remote starter remote control signal you would have to be >>> scanning/reading the code while the button is repeatedly pressed a >>> number of times till the scanner could figure out the algorithm used >>> for the code hopping. They don't transmit when the receive a >>> challenge signal. >>> >>> If you want to be paranoid about the article mentioned above, then >>> the way to protect oneself is to have their stock Honda (or any other >>> brand) key stored in a lead lined key case when walking around with >>> it in their pocket. The car alarm, remote starter, keyless entry >>> unit, to be cloned would require first getting your hands on the >>> actual FOB, in which case you don't need to clone it as you have the >>> original. >>> >>> All that aside, I'm guessing the "post that to seth on the "Honda >>> Pilot EXL 2007 - remote start" thread from july 14." was more an >>> attempt at being obnoxious than anything else. I know I never said >>> the system was invulnerable, just not a high-risk threat. Having >>> one's head or house destroyed by a piece of falling debris is also >>> possible, but again, not likely and therefore I'm not losing any >>> sleep worrying about it. Coincidently, neither my home owners >>> insurance, car insurance or life insurance has any clause excluding >>> space debris or remote starters. If they thought it was a high risk >>> possibility you better believe they would have a clause and an >>> additional cost rider as a result to make more money off the customer. >>> >> >> seth, with respect, you're welcome to justify the remote starters you >> sell any way you want. > > Haven't sold them in years. > >> but in terms of how the key [and replication system] works, you don't >> understand and are therefore propagating misinformation. that's not >> to say you haven't read the marketing blurb and can repeat it, but in >> terms of mechanism, you're still unclear. > > The key (Honda key from factory) is challenge/response. I didn't say > otherwise. The FOB that controls the remote starter is not. It is > purely 1-way, rolling code (also called code hopping). so is the honda key - never sends the same code twice. the point is, you can /predict/ what the next code will be if you have a few samples from which to establish the pattern. > >> it's a challenge/response mechanism - just like you have with computer >> network authentication. on startup, ecu signals for code with token, >> key hashes with it's own unique code that the ecu has been programmed >> to recognize, then transmits it back. if the token has been hashed >> correctly, the ecu will arm the ignition system. all an outsider has >> to do to break in is, well, follow the procedure spelled out in the >> article. the remote starter performs challenge/response just like the >> key. > > Actually not the same. It (the remote starter RFID over-ride module) is > wired direct into the lines that the RFID receiver uses to feed the > vehicle ECU. it /is/ the same - the ecu still has to challenge and then compare the hash on the response. > >> are you welcome to have on in your own vehicle? sure. but please >> don't say they're impossible to hack because they're not. > > You need to work on your reading comprehension. Please show me where I > said they were impossible to hack. I said it is a small risk due to the > complexity of doing it vs. otehr easier methods of stealing ones car. > Big difference. Re-read what I wrote and you will see that. apart from problems with engine wear caused by habitual use of remote starters, i mentioned security, a point on which you've taken great offense for reasons i still don't understand. and you continued arguing against that point regardless of the facts, finally resorting to what amounts to "well, if it /does/ get stolen, it's not excluded from your insurance, so hopefully you're ok". fact: if you have the gear and the knowledge, and a laptop is not exactly an uncommon item, electronic theft is a good deal easier than mechanical. and remote starters mean the driver doesn't need to be present or challenged. end of story. > > just like the key >> is not. the remote starter makes vehicle theft easier because there's >> a "key" permanently attached to the vehicle. >> as i said at the start, some people do this stuff for the technical >> challenge. hence the article. which i didn't write. > > |
Re: 90 Accord main relay
Seth wrote:
> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message > news:YJydnc8tq8nb0TDbnZ2dnUVZ_vumnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t... >> Seth wrote: >>> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message >>> news:ucudnfaJCZ0WDzHbnZ2dnUVZ_qLinZ2d@speakeasy.ne t... >>>> Eric wrote: >>>>> Jim Yanik wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> At least the Spec V has RFID chipped keys. >>>>> >>>>> This article may be of interest. >>>>> >>>>>> How a keyless car gets stolen isn't exactly a state secret; much >>>>>> of the >>>>>> required knowledge is Basic Encryption 101. The authors of the Johns >>>>>> Hopkins/RSA study needed only to capture two >>>>>> challenge-and-response pairs >>>>>> from their intended target before cracking the encryption. In an >>>>>> example >>>>>> from the paper, they wanted to see if they could swipe the passive >>>>>> code >>>>>> off the keyless ignition device itself. To do so, the authors >>>>>> simulated a >>>>>> car's ignition system (the RFID reader) on a laptop. By sitting >>>>>> close to >>>>>> someone with a keyless ignition device in their pocket, the >>>>>> authors were >>>>>> able to perform several scans in less than one second without the >>>>>> victim >>>>>> knowing. They then began decrypting the sampled challenge-response >>>>>> pairs. >>>>>> Using brute-force attack techniques, the researchers had the >>>>>> laptop try >>>>>> different combinations of symbols until they found combinations that >>>>>> matched. Once they had the matching codes, they could then predict >>>>>> the >>>>>> sequence and were soon able to gain entrance to the target car and >>>>>> start >>>>>> it. >>>>> >>>>> http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-3513_7-...xt&tag=nl.e501 >>>> >>>> post that to seth on the "Honda Pilot EXL 2007 - remote start" >>>> thread from july 14. >>> >>> >>> Why post it to me? You do know that the exploit being discussed >>> above has nothing to do with a remote starter as they don't use an >>> RFID challenge/response signaling system, don't you? >>> >>> To clone a remote starter remote control signal you would have to be >>> scanning/reading the code while the button is repeatedly pressed a >>> number of times till the scanner could figure out the algorithm used >>> for the code hopping. They don't transmit when the receive a >>> challenge signal. >>> >>> If you want to be paranoid about the article mentioned above, then >>> the way to protect oneself is to have their stock Honda (or any other >>> brand) key stored in a lead lined key case when walking around with >>> it in their pocket. The car alarm, remote starter, keyless entry >>> unit, to be cloned would require first getting your hands on the >>> actual FOB, in which case you don't need to clone it as you have the >>> original. >>> >>> All that aside, I'm guessing the "post that to seth on the "Honda >>> Pilot EXL 2007 - remote start" thread from july 14." was more an >>> attempt at being obnoxious than anything else. I know I never said >>> the system was invulnerable, just not a high-risk threat. Having >>> one's head or house destroyed by a piece of falling debris is also >>> possible, but again, not likely and therefore I'm not losing any >>> sleep worrying about it. Coincidently, neither my home owners >>> insurance, car insurance or life insurance has any clause excluding >>> space debris or remote starters. If they thought it was a high risk >>> possibility you better believe they would have a clause and an >>> additional cost rider as a result to make more money off the customer. >>> >> >> seth, with respect, you're welcome to justify the remote starters you >> sell any way you want. > > Haven't sold them in years. > >> but in terms of how the key [and replication system] works, you don't >> understand and are therefore propagating misinformation. that's not >> to say you haven't read the marketing blurb and can repeat it, but in >> terms of mechanism, you're still unclear. > > The key (Honda key from factory) is challenge/response. I didn't say > otherwise. The FOB that controls the remote starter is not. It is > purely 1-way, rolling code (also called code hopping). so is the honda key - never sends the same code twice. the point is, you can /predict/ what the next code will be if you have a few samples from which to establish the pattern. > >> it's a challenge/response mechanism - just like you have with computer >> network authentication. on startup, ecu signals for code with token, >> key hashes with it's own unique code that the ecu has been programmed >> to recognize, then transmits it back. if the token has been hashed >> correctly, the ecu will arm the ignition system. all an outsider has >> to do to break in is, well, follow the procedure spelled out in the >> article. the remote starter performs challenge/response just like the >> key. > > Actually not the same. It (the remote starter RFID over-ride module) is > wired direct into the lines that the RFID receiver uses to feed the > vehicle ECU. it /is/ the same - the ecu still has to challenge and then compare the hash on the response. > >> are you welcome to have on in your own vehicle? sure. but please >> don't say they're impossible to hack because they're not. > > You need to work on your reading comprehension. Please show me where I > said they were impossible to hack. I said it is a small risk due to the > complexity of doing it vs. otehr easier methods of stealing ones car. > Big difference. Re-read what I wrote and you will see that. apart from problems with engine wear caused by habitual use of remote starters, i mentioned security, a point on which you've taken great offense for reasons i still don't understand. and you continued arguing against that point regardless of the facts, finally resorting to what amounts to "well, if it /does/ get stolen, it's not excluded from your insurance, so hopefully you're ok". fact: if you have the gear and the knowledge, and a laptop is not exactly an uncommon item, electronic theft is a good deal easier than mechanical. and remote starters mean the driver doesn't need to be present or challenged. end of story. > > just like the key >> is not. the remote starter makes vehicle theft easier because there's >> a "key" permanently attached to the vehicle. >> as i said at the start, some people do this stuff for the technical >> challenge. hence the article. which i didn't write. > > |
Re: 90 Accord main relay
Seth wrote:
> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message > news:YJydnc8tq8nb0TDbnZ2dnUVZ_vumnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t... >> Seth wrote: >>> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message >>> news:ucudnfaJCZ0WDzHbnZ2dnUVZ_qLinZ2d@speakeasy.ne t... >>>> Eric wrote: >>>>> Jim Yanik wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> At least the Spec V has RFID chipped keys. >>>>> >>>>> This article may be of interest. >>>>> >>>>>> How a keyless car gets stolen isn't exactly a state secret; much >>>>>> of the >>>>>> required knowledge is Basic Encryption 101. The authors of the Johns >>>>>> Hopkins/RSA study needed only to capture two >>>>>> challenge-and-response pairs >>>>>> from their intended target before cracking the encryption. In an >>>>>> example >>>>>> from the paper, they wanted to see if they could swipe the passive >>>>>> code >>>>>> off the keyless ignition device itself. To do so, the authors >>>>>> simulated a >>>>>> car's ignition system (the RFID reader) on a laptop. By sitting >>>>>> close to >>>>>> someone with a keyless ignition device in their pocket, the >>>>>> authors were >>>>>> able to perform several scans in less than one second without the >>>>>> victim >>>>>> knowing. They then began decrypting the sampled challenge-response >>>>>> pairs. >>>>>> Using brute-force attack techniques, the researchers had the >>>>>> laptop try >>>>>> different combinations of symbols until they found combinations that >>>>>> matched. Once they had the matching codes, they could then predict >>>>>> the >>>>>> sequence and were soon able to gain entrance to the target car and >>>>>> start >>>>>> it. >>>>> >>>>> http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-3513_7-...xt&tag=nl.e501 >>>> >>>> post that to seth on the "Honda Pilot EXL 2007 - remote start" >>>> thread from july 14. >>> >>> >>> Why post it to me? You do know that the exploit being discussed >>> above has nothing to do with a remote starter as they don't use an >>> RFID challenge/response signaling system, don't you? >>> >>> To clone a remote starter remote control signal you would have to be >>> scanning/reading the code while the button is repeatedly pressed a >>> number of times till the scanner could figure out the algorithm used >>> for the code hopping. They don't transmit when the receive a >>> challenge signal. >>> >>> If you want to be paranoid about the article mentioned above, then >>> the way to protect oneself is to have their stock Honda (or any other >>> brand) key stored in a lead lined key case when walking around with >>> it in their pocket. The car alarm, remote starter, keyless entry >>> unit, to be cloned would require first getting your hands on the >>> actual FOB, in which case you don't need to clone it as you have the >>> original. >>> >>> All that aside, I'm guessing the "post that to seth on the "Honda >>> Pilot EXL 2007 - remote start" thread from july 14." was more an >>> attempt at being obnoxious than anything else. I know I never said >>> the system was invulnerable, just not a high-risk threat. Having >>> one's head or house destroyed by a piece of falling debris is also >>> possible, but again, not likely and therefore I'm not losing any >>> sleep worrying about it. Coincidently, neither my home owners >>> insurance, car insurance or life insurance has any clause excluding >>> space debris or remote starters. If they thought it was a high risk >>> possibility you better believe they would have a clause and an >>> additional cost rider as a result to make more money off the customer. >>> >> >> seth, with respect, you're welcome to justify the remote starters you >> sell any way you want. > > Haven't sold them in years. > >> but in terms of how the key [and replication system] works, you don't >> understand and are therefore propagating misinformation. that's not >> to say you haven't read the marketing blurb and can repeat it, but in >> terms of mechanism, you're still unclear. > > The key (Honda key from factory) is challenge/response. I didn't say > otherwise. The FOB that controls the remote starter is not. It is > purely 1-way, rolling code (also called code hopping). so is the honda key - never sends the same code twice. the point is, you can /predict/ what the next code will be if you have a few samples from which to establish the pattern. > >> it's a challenge/response mechanism - just like you have with computer >> network authentication. on startup, ecu signals for code with token, >> key hashes with it's own unique code that the ecu has been programmed >> to recognize, then transmits it back. if the token has been hashed >> correctly, the ecu will arm the ignition system. all an outsider has >> to do to break in is, well, follow the procedure spelled out in the >> article. the remote starter performs challenge/response just like the >> key. > > Actually not the same. It (the remote starter RFID over-ride module) is > wired direct into the lines that the RFID receiver uses to feed the > vehicle ECU. it /is/ the same - the ecu still has to challenge and then compare the hash on the response. > >> are you welcome to have on in your own vehicle? sure. but please >> don't say they're impossible to hack because they're not. > > You need to work on your reading comprehension. Please show me where I > said they were impossible to hack. I said it is a small risk due to the > complexity of doing it vs. otehr easier methods of stealing ones car. > Big difference. Re-read what I wrote and you will see that. apart from problems with engine wear caused by habitual use of remote starters, i mentioned security, a point on which you've taken great offense for reasons i still don't understand. and you continued arguing against that point regardless of the facts, finally resorting to what amounts to "well, if it /does/ get stolen, it's not excluded from your insurance, so hopefully you're ok". fact: if you have the gear and the knowledge, and a laptop is not exactly an uncommon item, electronic theft is a good deal easier than mechanical. and remote starters mean the driver doesn't need to be present or challenged. end of story. > > just like the key >> is not. the remote starter makes vehicle theft easier because there's >> a "key" permanently attached to the vehicle. >> as i said at the start, some people do this stuff for the technical >> challenge. hence the article. which i didn't write. > > |
Re: 90 Accord main relay
| found bad solder
| joints exactly as pictured on several web sites. My '90 accord 's main relay ( made by Mitsuba ) has always been fine, now 85k+ km. | Bought a new one for $40 Sold in msia @ M$85 ~= US$24.28 |
Re: 90 Accord main relay
| found bad solder
| joints exactly as pictured on several web sites. My '90 accord 's main relay ( made by Mitsuba ) has always been fine, now 85k+ km. | Bought a new one for $40 Sold in msia @ M$85 ~= US$24.28 |
Re: 90 Accord main relay
| found bad solder
| joints exactly as pictured on several web sites. My '90 accord 's main relay ( made by Mitsuba ) has always been fine, now 85k+ km. | Bought a new one for $40 Sold in msia @ M$85 ~= US$24.28 |
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