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'93 Civic CX - DIED in parking lot?!?
93 Civic CX hatch, Canadian model, 244 000 km (the "clown car" featured
on Tegger's site, FYI). I've had a broken ball joint and a ruptured Canadian Tire tire in the past month and a half (I blame a pothole) but the other two problems have me much more concerned. Six weeks ago, spontaneous failure to start. Cranked but did little else. After being towed to a CAA-approved garage, the ignition control module was found to be faulty and was replaced. Also, oil had leaked up high around all four plugs (which was blamed for the failure of the ICM). We had replaced the valve gaskets 2 years prior. A new gasket set was installed. Car ran sort of OK for the next four weeks. The subsequent two weeks, we started having start problems (had to crank it twice or three times) and the low idle seemed a little sputtery. It also seemed to be a little sluggish as well. We chocked it up to the car needing a tune-up having last been done around 2 years ago. After leaving the car in the lot for the weekend, spontaneous failure to start returned on Sunday. Something along the lines of crank-crank-crank-crank-crank - SPUTTER-SPUTTER crank-crank-crank etc. - different than last time. A gasoline smell came after cranking a few times. No oil was observed around the plugs. No check engine light. PGM-FI relay seemed to be clicking as it should, fuel was pumping, decent spark, etc. The oil was down a bit, but still above the 'fill' dot on the dipstick. I got the car towed to my regular mechanic who is now of the opinion that the engine needs to be replaced. I intend to go to the garage and have him better convince me of this before I shell out bucks for an engine replacement, but I have a few questions that are lingering... 1.) The mechanic warned us (2 1/2 years ago) that leaving the oil-leak-around-the-plugs problem could result in catastrophic engine failure. I've not found any Internet source that can verify this story. Any opinions? 2.) Any chance that the ECM could be screwy? I can't see it being that since there's spark and fuel pumping, but can't be sure. 3.) The whole concept of gently-used Japanese motors was new to me when the mechanic recommended a used Japanese motor as opposed to tearing my existing one apart. Is it true that they export engines and transmissions (as well as whole cars) because of their stringent vehicle inspection policies? Thanks, Adam (unhappy clown car owner) |
Re: '93 Civic CX - DIED in parking lot?!?
Adam Christopher Lawrence wrote:
> 93 Civic CX hatch, Canadian model, 244 000 km (the "clown car" featured > on Tegger's site, FYI). > > I've had a broken ball joint and a ruptured Canadian Tire tire in the > past month and a half (I blame a pothole) but the other two problems > have me much more concerned. > > Six weeks ago, spontaneous failure to start. Cranked but did little > else. After being towed to a CAA-approved garage, the ignition control > module was found to be faulty and was replaced. Also, oil had leaked up > high around all four plugs (which was blamed for the failure of the > ICM). We had replaced the valve gaskets 2 years prior. A new gasket set > was installed. > > Car ran sort of OK for the next four weeks. The subsequent two weeks, we > started having start problems (had to crank it twice or three times) and > the low idle seemed a little sputtery. It also seemed to be a little > sluggish as well. We chocked it up to the car needing a tune-up having > last been done around 2 years ago. > > After leaving the car in the lot for the weekend, spontaneous failure to > start returned on Sunday. Something along the lines of > crank-crank-crank-crank-crank - SPUTTER-SPUTTER crank-crank-crank etc. - > different than last time. A gasoline smell came after cranking a few > times. No oil was observed around the plugs. No check engine light. > PGM-FI relay seemed to be clicking as it should, fuel was pumping, > decent spark, etc. The oil was down a bit, but still above the 'fill' > dot on the dipstick. > > I got the car towed to my regular mechanic who is now of the opinion > that the engine needs to be replaced. I intend to go to the garage and > have him better convince me of this before I shell out bucks for an > engine replacement, but I have a few questions that are lingering... > > 1.) The mechanic warned us (2 1/2 years ago) that leaving the > oil-leak-around-the-plugs problem could result in catastrophic engine > failure. I've not found any Internet source that can verify this story. > Any opinions? IMO, it shouldn't. I suppose it is possible, but usually replacing the seals should solve the issue. > > 2.) Any chance that the ECM could be screwy? I can't see it being that > since there's spark and fuel pumping, but can't be sure. I doubt it. The ECM is pretty hardy. Unless it was covered in water (car in a flood), the ECM should last pretty damned near forever. > > 3.) The whole concept of gently-used Japanese motors was new to me when > the mechanic recommended a used Japanese motor as opposed to tearing my > existing one apart. Is it true that they export engines and > transmissions (as well as whole cars) because of their stringent vehicle > inspection policies? Yes. |
Re: '93 Civic CX - DIED in parking lot?!?
Adam Christopher Lawrence wrote:
> 93 Civic CX hatch, Canadian model, 244 000 km (the "clown car" featured > on Tegger's site, FYI). > > I've had a broken ball joint and a ruptured Canadian Tire tire in the > past month and a half (I blame a pothole) but the other two problems > have me much more concerned. > > Six weeks ago, spontaneous failure to start. Cranked but did little > else. After being towed to a CAA-approved garage, the ignition control > module was found to be faulty and was replaced. Also, oil had leaked up > high around all four plugs (which was blamed for the failure of the > ICM). We had replaced the valve gaskets 2 years prior. A new gasket set > was installed. > > Car ran sort of OK for the next four weeks. The subsequent two weeks, we > started having start problems (had to crank it twice or three times) and > the low idle seemed a little sputtery. It also seemed to be a little > sluggish as well. We chocked it up to the car needing a tune-up having > last been done around 2 years ago. > > After leaving the car in the lot for the weekend, spontaneous failure to > start returned on Sunday. Something along the lines of > crank-crank-crank-crank-crank - SPUTTER-SPUTTER crank-crank-crank etc. - > different than last time. A gasoline smell came after cranking a few > times. No oil was observed around the plugs. No check engine light. > PGM-FI relay seemed to be clicking as it should, fuel was pumping, > decent spark, etc. The oil was down a bit, but still above the 'fill' > dot on the dipstick. > > I got the car towed to my regular mechanic who is now of the opinion > that the engine needs to be replaced. I intend to go to the garage and > have him better convince me of this before I shell out bucks for an > engine replacement, but I have a few questions that are lingering... > > 1.) The mechanic warned us (2 1/2 years ago) that leaving the > oil-leak-around-the-plugs problem could result in catastrophic engine > failure. I've not found any Internet source that can verify this story. > Any opinions? IMO, it shouldn't. I suppose it is possible, but usually replacing the seals should solve the issue. > > 2.) Any chance that the ECM could be screwy? I can't see it being that > since there's spark and fuel pumping, but can't be sure. I doubt it. The ECM is pretty hardy. Unless it was covered in water (car in a flood), the ECM should last pretty damned near forever. > > 3.) The whole concept of gently-used Japanese motors was new to me when > the mechanic recommended a used Japanese motor as opposed to tearing my > existing one apart. Is it true that they export engines and > transmissions (as well as whole cars) because of their stringent vehicle > inspection policies? Yes. |
Re: '93 Civic CX - DIED in parking lot?!?
>> 1.) The mechanic warned us (2 1/2 years ago) that leaving the >> oil-leak-around-the-plugs problem could result in catastrophic engine >> failure. I've not found any Internet source that can verify this story. >> Any opinions? > > IMO, it shouldn't. I suppose it is possible, but usually replacing the > seals should solve the issue. Thanks for the advice. Here's another question: does the first mechanic's hypothesis about the oil leak frying the ICM make sense? I mean, if the sparl is arcing to the engine block instead of coming out of the plug, would the igniton system really see any difference? |
Re: '93 Civic CX - DIED in parking lot?!?
>> 1.) The mechanic warned us (2 1/2 years ago) that leaving the >> oil-leak-around-the-plugs problem could result in catastrophic engine >> failure. I've not found any Internet source that can verify this story. >> Any opinions? > > IMO, it shouldn't. I suppose it is possible, but usually replacing the > seals should solve the issue. Thanks for the advice. Here's another question: does the first mechanic's hypothesis about the oil leak frying the ICM make sense? I mean, if the sparl is arcing to the engine block instead of coming out of the plug, would the igniton system really see any difference? |
Re: '93 Civic CX - DIED in parking lot?!?
Adam Christopher Lawrence <madmanguruman@gmail.com> wrote in news:13325
$465cb9d6$cf707bea$30311@PRIMUS.CA: > > >>> 1.) The mechanic warned us (2 1/2 years ago) that leaving the >>> oil-leak-around-the-plugs problem could result in catastrophic engine >>> failure. I've not found any Internet source that can verify this story. >>> Any opinions? >> >> IMO, it shouldn't. I suppose it is possible, but usually replacing the >> seals should solve the issue. > > Thanks for the advice. Here's another question: does the first > mechanic's hypothesis about the oil leak frying the ICM make sense? I > mean, if the sparl is arcing to the engine block instead of coming out > of the plug, would the igniton system really see any difference? No it wouldn't. But *you* might notice. The engine could misfire badly enough to cause driveability problems. -- Tegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ |
Re: '93 Civic CX - DIED in parking lot?!?
Adam Christopher Lawrence <madmanguruman@gmail.com> wrote in news:13325
$465cb9d6$cf707bea$30311@PRIMUS.CA: > > >>> 1.) The mechanic warned us (2 1/2 years ago) that leaving the >>> oil-leak-around-the-plugs problem could result in catastrophic engine >>> failure. I've not found any Internet source that can verify this story. >>> Any opinions? >> >> IMO, it shouldn't. I suppose it is possible, but usually replacing the >> seals should solve the issue. > > Thanks for the advice. Here's another question: does the first > mechanic's hypothesis about the oil leak frying the ICM make sense? I > mean, if the sparl is arcing to the engine block instead of coming out > of the plug, would the igniton system really see any difference? No it wouldn't. But *you* might notice. The engine could misfire badly enough to cause driveability problems. -- Tegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ |
Re: '93 Civic CX - DIED in parking lot?!?
Adam Christopher Lawrence <madmanguruman@gmail.com> wrote in
news:9c075$465cb299$cf707bea$17378@PRIMUS.CA: > 93 Civic CX hatch, Canadian model, 244 000 km (the "clown car" > featured on Tegger's site, FYI). > > I've had a broken ball joint and a ruptured Canadian Tire tire in the > past month and a half (I blame a pothole) but the other two problems > have me much more concerned. > > Six weeks ago, spontaneous failure to start. Cranked but did little > else. After being towed to a CAA-approved garage, the ignition control > module was found to be faulty and was replaced. I'd *love* to know how they determined that. Did they backprobe the blue wire and check for dropped signals? That's the only real way to tell, on-the-car. You don't have a tach, do you? The stock tach is a handy diag tool, since it gets its power from the igniter's blue wire. > Also, oil had leaked > up high around all four plugs (which was blamed for the failure of the > ICM). We had replaced the valve gaskets 2 years prior. A new gasket > set was installed. > > Car ran sort of OK for the next four weeks. The subsequent two weeks, > we started having start problems (had to crank it twice or three > times) and the low idle seemed a little sputtery. It also seemed to be > a little sluggish as well. We chocked it up to the car needing a > tune-up having last been done around 2 years ago. > > After leaving the car in the lot for the weekend, spontaneous failure > to start returned on Sunday. Something along the lines of > crank-crank-crank-crank-crank - SPUTTER-SPUTTER crank-crank-crank etc. > - different than last time. A gasoline smell came after cranking a few > times. No oil was observed around the plugs. No check engine light. > PGM-FI relay seemed to be clicking as it should, fuel was pumping, > decent spark, etc. The oil was down a bit, but still above the 'fill' > dot on the dipstick. > > I got the car towed to my regular mechanic who is now of the opinion > that the engine needs to be replaced. I intend to go to the garage and > have him better convince me of this before I shell out bucks for an > engine replacement, but I have a few questions that are lingering... > > 1.) The mechanic warned us (2 1/2 years ago) that leaving the > oil-leak-around-the-plugs problem could result in catastrophic engine > failure. I've not found any Internet source that can verify this > story. Any opinions? > > 2.) Any chance that the ECM could be screwy? I can't see it being > that since there's spark and fuel pumping, but can't be sure. > > 3.) The whole concept of gently-used Japanese motors was new to me > when the mechanic recommended a used Japanese motor as opposed to > tearing my existing one apart. Is it true that they export engines and > transmissions (as well as whole cars) because of their stringent > vehicle inspection policies? > > Thanks, > Adam (unhappy clown car owner) Before you spend lots of dough getting the engine replaced, find a better mechanic. This is not rocket science and he's no rocket scientist. If the Check Engine light comes on for two seconds when the key is first turned to "II", then goes off, and if the fuel pump runs while the CEL is on, then your ECM is FINE. Do NOT replace it. Your symptoms right now point to a possible weak spark, weak enough to cause a misfire. Your mechanic needs to ascertain that the spark AT THE PLUGS IN THE ENGINE is a fat and purply-blue. A "spark plug tester" will not tell anybody if the spark is grounding before the plug gap. If the cap/wires/rotor/plugs are over 5 years old, or show ANY sign of arcing, then the spark is probably not making it to the plugs in the engine, but may be arcing out in the plug tubes. Check for discolored, burned or sooty spots at the plug wire ends, and on the plug tube walls. Your symptoms also point to a possible weak coil. The blue-spark check is a good test for that as well. A weak coil will put out a (yellow or darker) spark. If the spark is purply-blue when viewed at a standard plug gap in a dark area, then the ignition is likely just fine. A final strong possibility is a flooded engine due to a leaky injector. If the car sits for long periods, gum can build up in the injector, sticking it open slightly. The cure is to floor the gas, then hold it there while you crank. This causes the ECM to shut off the injectors in order to clear a flooded condition. If the car eventually starts when you do this, you've got a fuel condition. If the car starts fine when it's used frequently, then the leaky injector theory becomes more probable. If the problem turns out to be leaky injectors. Canadian Tire sells the Motorvac injector service, which I highly recommend. It's $100 and is worth doing on any older car. Just make sure you have a high-volume shop do the work, and make 100% certian that they will plumb in at the fuel filter, NOT the fuel pump connections. Good luck. -- Tegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ |
Re: '93 Civic CX - DIED in parking lot?!?
Adam Christopher Lawrence <madmanguruman@gmail.com> wrote in
news:9c075$465cb299$cf707bea$17378@PRIMUS.CA: > 93 Civic CX hatch, Canadian model, 244 000 km (the "clown car" > featured on Tegger's site, FYI). > > I've had a broken ball joint and a ruptured Canadian Tire tire in the > past month and a half (I blame a pothole) but the other two problems > have me much more concerned. > > Six weeks ago, spontaneous failure to start. Cranked but did little > else. After being towed to a CAA-approved garage, the ignition control > module was found to be faulty and was replaced. I'd *love* to know how they determined that. Did they backprobe the blue wire and check for dropped signals? That's the only real way to tell, on-the-car. You don't have a tach, do you? The stock tach is a handy diag tool, since it gets its power from the igniter's blue wire. > Also, oil had leaked > up high around all four plugs (which was blamed for the failure of the > ICM). We had replaced the valve gaskets 2 years prior. A new gasket > set was installed. > > Car ran sort of OK for the next four weeks. The subsequent two weeks, > we started having start problems (had to crank it twice or three > times) and the low idle seemed a little sputtery. It also seemed to be > a little sluggish as well. We chocked it up to the car needing a > tune-up having last been done around 2 years ago. > > After leaving the car in the lot for the weekend, spontaneous failure > to start returned on Sunday. Something along the lines of > crank-crank-crank-crank-crank - SPUTTER-SPUTTER crank-crank-crank etc. > - different than last time. A gasoline smell came after cranking a few > times. No oil was observed around the plugs. No check engine light. > PGM-FI relay seemed to be clicking as it should, fuel was pumping, > decent spark, etc. The oil was down a bit, but still above the 'fill' > dot on the dipstick. > > I got the car towed to my regular mechanic who is now of the opinion > that the engine needs to be replaced. I intend to go to the garage and > have him better convince me of this before I shell out bucks for an > engine replacement, but I have a few questions that are lingering... > > 1.) The mechanic warned us (2 1/2 years ago) that leaving the > oil-leak-around-the-plugs problem could result in catastrophic engine > failure. I've not found any Internet source that can verify this > story. Any opinions? > > 2.) Any chance that the ECM could be screwy? I can't see it being > that since there's spark and fuel pumping, but can't be sure. > > 3.) The whole concept of gently-used Japanese motors was new to me > when the mechanic recommended a used Japanese motor as opposed to > tearing my existing one apart. Is it true that they export engines and > transmissions (as well as whole cars) because of their stringent > vehicle inspection policies? > > Thanks, > Adam (unhappy clown car owner) Before you spend lots of dough getting the engine replaced, find a better mechanic. This is not rocket science and he's no rocket scientist. If the Check Engine light comes on for two seconds when the key is first turned to "II", then goes off, and if the fuel pump runs while the CEL is on, then your ECM is FINE. Do NOT replace it. Your symptoms right now point to a possible weak spark, weak enough to cause a misfire. Your mechanic needs to ascertain that the spark AT THE PLUGS IN THE ENGINE is a fat and purply-blue. A "spark plug tester" will not tell anybody if the spark is grounding before the plug gap. If the cap/wires/rotor/plugs are over 5 years old, or show ANY sign of arcing, then the spark is probably not making it to the plugs in the engine, but may be arcing out in the plug tubes. Check for discolored, burned or sooty spots at the plug wire ends, and on the plug tube walls. Your symptoms also point to a possible weak coil. The blue-spark check is a good test for that as well. A weak coil will put out a (yellow or darker) spark. If the spark is purply-blue when viewed at a standard plug gap in a dark area, then the ignition is likely just fine. A final strong possibility is a flooded engine due to a leaky injector. If the car sits for long periods, gum can build up in the injector, sticking it open slightly. The cure is to floor the gas, then hold it there while you crank. This causes the ECM to shut off the injectors in order to clear a flooded condition. If the car eventually starts when you do this, you've got a fuel condition. If the car starts fine when it's used frequently, then the leaky injector theory becomes more probable. If the problem turns out to be leaky injectors. Canadian Tire sells the Motorvac injector service, which I highly recommend. It's $100 and is worth doing on any older car. Just make sure you have a high-volume shop do the work, and make 100% certian that they will plumb in at the fuel filter, NOT the fuel pump connections. Good luck. -- Tegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ |
Re: '93 Civic CX - DIED in parking lot?!?
> I'd *love* to know how they determined that. Did they backprobe the blue > wire and check for dropped signals? That's the only real way to tell, > on-the-car. > > You don't have a tach, do you? The stock tach is a handy diag tool, > since it gets its power from the igniter's blue wire. No, it's an automatic unfortunately. I rode along with the car and was watching over the shoulder of the mechanic while they tinkered. There was *zero* spark when the initial check was done. They checked the cap and rotor, then swapped the whole distributor with another (weak spark) then put the ICM from the other distributor back into my old assembly (problem "solved"). > Before you spend lots of dough getting the engine replaced, find a > better mechanic. This is not rocket science and he's no rocket > scientist. He's been good to me in the past, but I intend to pay him a visit before agreeing to something as drastic as an engine swap. I want to be thoroughly convinced that nothing else will work. > If the Check Engine light comes on for two seconds when the key is first > turned to "II", then goes off, and if the fuel pump runs while the CEL > is on, then your ECM is FINE. Do NOT replace it. This is what's happening. I can hear the fuel pump run until the CEL goes off. Agreed that the ECM is most likely not involved. > If the cap/wires/rotor/plugs are over 5 years old, or show ANY sign of > arcing, then the spark is probably not making it to the plugs in the > engine, but may be arcing out in the plug tubes. Check for discolored, > burned or sooty spots at the plug wire ends, and on the plug tube walls. The cap, rotor and wires were replaced two years ago by the same mechanic. Probably after-market (which is its own can of worms, I know) > Your symptoms also point to a possible weak coil. The blue-spark check > is a good test for that as well. A weak coil will put out a (yellow or > darker) spark. I'll keep this in mind for tomorrow's chat. > A final strong possibility is a flooded engine due to a leaky injector. > If the car sits for long periods, gum can build up in the injector, > sticking it open slightly. The cure is to floor the gas, then hold it > there while you crank. This causes the ECM to shut off the injectors in > order to clear a flooded condition. If it's conceivable that 30 hours of inactivity can leak enough fuel to flood the engine, then this could be the problem. I normally use the car daily. I did try cranking the car with the gas down as per the FAQ, but still couldn't get it to change its condition. Prior to Sunday, it was having trouble starting every day but would get going eventually (would sometimes take two or three sets of cranks to get going). > If the car eventually starts when you do this, you've got a fuel > condition. If the car starts fine when it's used frequently, then the > leaky injector theory becomes more probable. > If the problem turns out to be leaky injectors. Canadian Tire sells the > Motorvac injector service, which I highly recommend. It's $100 and is > worth doing on any older car. Just make sure you have a high-volume shop > do the work, and make 100% certian that they will plumb in at the fuel > filter, NOT the fuel pump connections. If I get a good resolution tomorrow, I'll absolutely consider this. Thanks for the advice! |
Re: '93 Civic CX - DIED in parking lot?!?
> I'd *love* to know how they determined that. Did they backprobe the blue > wire and check for dropped signals? That's the only real way to tell, > on-the-car. > > You don't have a tach, do you? The stock tach is a handy diag tool, > since it gets its power from the igniter's blue wire. No, it's an automatic unfortunately. I rode along with the car and was watching over the shoulder of the mechanic while they tinkered. There was *zero* spark when the initial check was done. They checked the cap and rotor, then swapped the whole distributor with another (weak spark) then put the ICM from the other distributor back into my old assembly (problem "solved"). > Before you spend lots of dough getting the engine replaced, find a > better mechanic. This is not rocket science and he's no rocket > scientist. He's been good to me in the past, but I intend to pay him a visit before agreeing to something as drastic as an engine swap. I want to be thoroughly convinced that nothing else will work. > If the Check Engine light comes on for two seconds when the key is first > turned to "II", then goes off, and if the fuel pump runs while the CEL > is on, then your ECM is FINE. Do NOT replace it. This is what's happening. I can hear the fuel pump run until the CEL goes off. Agreed that the ECM is most likely not involved. > If the cap/wires/rotor/plugs are over 5 years old, or show ANY sign of > arcing, then the spark is probably not making it to the plugs in the > engine, but may be arcing out in the plug tubes. Check for discolored, > burned or sooty spots at the plug wire ends, and on the plug tube walls. The cap, rotor and wires were replaced two years ago by the same mechanic. Probably after-market (which is its own can of worms, I know) > Your symptoms also point to a possible weak coil. The blue-spark check > is a good test for that as well. A weak coil will put out a (yellow or > darker) spark. I'll keep this in mind for tomorrow's chat. > A final strong possibility is a flooded engine due to a leaky injector. > If the car sits for long periods, gum can build up in the injector, > sticking it open slightly. The cure is to floor the gas, then hold it > there while you crank. This causes the ECM to shut off the injectors in > order to clear a flooded condition. If it's conceivable that 30 hours of inactivity can leak enough fuel to flood the engine, then this could be the problem. I normally use the car daily. I did try cranking the car with the gas down as per the FAQ, but still couldn't get it to change its condition. Prior to Sunday, it was having trouble starting every day but would get going eventually (would sometimes take two or three sets of cranks to get going). > If the car eventually starts when you do this, you've got a fuel > condition. If the car starts fine when it's used frequently, then the > leaky injector theory becomes more probable. > If the problem turns out to be leaky injectors. Canadian Tire sells the > Motorvac injector service, which I highly recommend. It's $100 and is > worth doing on any older car. Just make sure you have a high-volume shop > do the work, and make 100% certian that they will plumb in at the fuel > filter, NOT the fuel pump connections. If I get a good resolution tomorrow, I'll absolutely consider this. Thanks for the advice! |
Re: '93 Civic CX - DIED in parking lot?!?
Adam Christopher Lawrence wrote:
> > >>> 1.) The mechanic warned us (2 1/2 years ago) that leaving the >>> oil-leak-around-the-plugs problem could result in catastrophic engine >>> failure. I've not found any Internet source that can verify this story. >>> Any opinions? >> >> IMO, it shouldn't. I suppose it is possible, but usually replacing the >> seals should solve the issue. > > Thanks for the advice. Here's another question: does the first > mechanic's hypothesis about the oil leak frying the ICM make sense? I > mean, if the sparl is arcing to the engine block instead of coming out > of the plug, would the igniton system really see any difference? I doubt it. The car would run like hell, but it shouldn't bother the ignition system. |
Re: '93 Civic CX - DIED in parking lot?!?
Adam Christopher Lawrence wrote:
> > >>> 1.) The mechanic warned us (2 1/2 years ago) that leaving the >>> oil-leak-around-the-plugs problem could result in catastrophic engine >>> failure. I've not found any Internet source that can verify this story. >>> Any opinions? >> >> IMO, it shouldn't. I suppose it is possible, but usually replacing the >> seals should solve the issue. > > Thanks for the advice. Here's another question: does the first > mechanic's hypothesis about the oil leak frying the ICM make sense? I > mean, if the sparl is arcing to the engine block instead of coming out > of the plug, would the igniton system really see any difference? I doubt it. The car would run like hell, but it shouldn't bother the ignition system. |
Re: '93 Civic CX - DIED in parking lot?!?
Adam Christopher Lawrence <madmanguruman@gmail.com> wrote in
news:7cb44$465ceae3$cf7041c7$1858@PRIMUS.CA: > >> I'd *love* to know how they determined that. Did they backprobe the >> blue wire and check for dropped signals? That's the only real way to >> tell, on-the-car. >> >> You don't have a tach, do you? The stock tach is a handy diag tool, >> since it gets its power from the igniter's blue wire. > > No, it's an automatic unfortunately. > > I rode along with the car and was watching over the shoulder of the > mechanic while they tinkered. There was *zero* spark when the initial > check was done. They checked the cap and rotor, then swapped the whole > distributor with another (weak spark) then put the ICM from the other > distributor back into my old assembly (problem "solved"). I see their reasoning, but with a Honda you're much more likely to have NO spark than a weak spark, from a failing igniter. An igniter usually works fine all along, then quits outright, usually while driving. I'm really thinking a weak coil at this point. I might be wrong, not having actually been there when they did their work... Ask them if they checked for shorting into the spark plug tubes. <snip> > >> Your symptoms also point to a possible weak coil. The blue-spark >> check is a good test for that as well. A weak coil will put out a >> (yellow or darker) spark. > > I'll keep this in mind for tomorrow's chat. > >> A final strong possibility is a flooded engine due to a leaky >> injector. If the car sits for long periods, gum can build up in the >> injector, sticking it open slightly. The cure is to floor the gas, >> then hold it there while you crank. This causes the ECM to shut off >> the injectors in order to clear a flooded condition. > > If it's conceivable that 30 hours of inactivity can leak enough fuel > to flood the engine, then this could be the problem. I normally use > the car daily. > > I did try cranking the car with the gas down as per the FAQ, but still > couldn't get it to change its condition. Prior to Sunday, it was > having trouble starting every day but would get going eventually > (would sometimes take two or three sets of cranks to get going). Make 100% certain the spark is actually good before getting the Motorvac done. If your car is used daily, chances are the injectors are fine. Modern fuels have loads of detergents and do a very good job of keeping injectors clean. -- Tegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ |
Re: '93 Civic CX - DIED in parking lot?!?
Adam Christopher Lawrence <madmanguruman@gmail.com> wrote in
news:7cb44$465ceae3$cf7041c7$1858@PRIMUS.CA: > >> I'd *love* to know how they determined that. Did they backprobe the >> blue wire and check for dropped signals? That's the only real way to >> tell, on-the-car. >> >> You don't have a tach, do you? The stock tach is a handy diag tool, >> since it gets its power from the igniter's blue wire. > > No, it's an automatic unfortunately. > > I rode along with the car and was watching over the shoulder of the > mechanic while they tinkered. There was *zero* spark when the initial > check was done. They checked the cap and rotor, then swapped the whole > distributor with another (weak spark) then put the ICM from the other > distributor back into my old assembly (problem "solved"). I see their reasoning, but with a Honda you're much more likely to have NO spark than a weak spark, from a failing igniter. An igniter usually works fine all along, then quits outright, usually while driving. I'm really thinking a weak coil at this point. I might be wrong, not having actually been there when they did their work... Ask them if they checked for shorting into the spark plug tubes. <snip> > >> Your symptoms also point to a possible weak coil. The blue-spark >> check is a good test for that as well. A weak coil will put out a >> (yellow or darker) spark. > > I'll keep this in mind for tomorrow's chat. > >> A final strong possibility is a flooded engine due to a leaky >> injector. If the car sits for long periods, gum can build up in the >> injector, sticking it open slightly. The cure is to floor the gas, >> then hold it there while you crank. This causes the ECM to shut off >> the injectors in order to clear a flooded condition. > > If it's conceivable that 30 hours of inactivity can leak enough fuel > to flood the engine, then this could be the problem. I normally use > the car daily. > > I did try cranking the car with the gas down as per the FAQ, but still > couldn't get it to change its condition. Prior to Sunday, it was > having trouble starting every day but would get going eventually > (would sometimes take two or three sets of cranks to get going). Make 100% certain the spark is actually good before getting the Motorvac done. If your car is used daily, chances are the injectors are fine. Modern fuels have loads of detergents and do a very good job of keeping injectors clean. -- Tegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ |
Re: '93 Civic CX - DIED in parking lot?!?
When I pulled the plug wires to check for oil, the tubes looked clean.
The first mechanic did a quite thorough job cleaning out the oil. I interrogated my mechanic today (in person) and was able to see a very good reason for my engine woes. Compression test: 105 / 80 / 60 / 60 which improved on the low cylinders when a little oil was squirted in. Looks like a ring problem - explains the sluggishness and hesitation too. He expects ~110 psi across the board for an engine of my vintage. The ignition circuitry does seem to be giving a good spark. He agreed that just replacing the ICM (which the first mechanic did) was something sort of odd. He would have opted to replace the whole assembly for a remanufactured one. Sigh ... |
Re: '93 Civic CX - DIED in parking lot?!?
When I pulled the plug wires to check for oil, the tubes looked clean.
The first mechanic did a quite thorough job cleaning out the oil. I interrogated my mechanic today (in person) and was able to see a very good reason for my engine woes. Compression test: 105 / 80 / 60 / 60 which improved on the low cylinders when a little oil was squirted in. Looks like a ring problem - explains the sluggishness and hesitation too. He expects ~110 psi across the board for an engine of my vintage. The ignition circuitry does seem to be giving a good spark. He agreed that just replacing the ICM (which the first mechanic did) was something sort of odd. He would have opted to replace the whole assembly for a remanufactured one. Sigh ... |
Re: '93 Civic CX - DIED in parking lot?!?
madmanguruman@gmail.com wrote in news:1180536400.115161.192510
@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com: > When I pulled the plug wires to check for oil, the tubes looked clean. > The first mechanic did a quite thorough job cleaning out the oil. > > I interrogated my mechanic today (in person) and was able to see a > very good reason for my engine woes. > > Compression test: 105 / 80 / 60 / 60 Oh. My. Gosh. You are, not to put too fine a point on it, WAY, WAY LOW. > which improved on the low > cylinders when a little oil was squirted in. Looks like a ring problem > - explains the sluggishness and hesitation too. He expects ~110 psi > across the board for an engine of my vintage. Wow. And you've only got 244,000km, which is a skimpy 151,000 miles. While I considered the possibility of low compression as being the cause of your woes, I did not expect that your compression could be that low at this mileage. You bought the car with 106K miles on it, and got a pretty good price. I'm afraid the previous owner did not take care of the car quite the way you might have hoped. At this point you should consider either selling the car or replacing the engine. A rebuild will likely not be economic. An engine with compression this low has suffered severe neglect, and it is a guarantee the crankshaft is scored. What were your numbers when you passed DriveClean when you transferred ownership? Do you still have the printout? Did the car start and run OK when you bought it? > > The ignition circuitry does seem to be giving a good spark. > > He agreed that just replacing the ICM (which the first mechanic did) > was something sort of odd. He would have opted to replace the whole > assembly for a remanufactured one. > > Sigh ... > Sorry, Adam. Wish the news was better. -- Tegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ |
Re: '93 Civic CX - DIED in parking lot?!?
madmanguruman@gmail.com wrote in news:1180536400.115161.192510
@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com: > When I pulled the plug wires to check for oil, the tubes looked clean. > The first mechanic did a quite thorough job cleaning out the oil. > > I interrogated my mechanic today (in person) and was able to see a > very good reason for my engine woes. > > Compression test: 105 / 80 / 60 / 60 Oh. My. Gosh. You are, not to put too fine a point on it, WAY, WAY LOW. > which improved on the low > cylinders when a little oil was squirted in. Looks like a ring problem > - explains the sluggishness and hesitation too. He expects ~110 psi > across the board for an engine of my vintage. Wow. And you've only got 244,000km, which is a skimpy 151,000 miles. While I considered the possibility of low compression as being the cause of your woes, I did not expect that your compression could be that low at this mileage. You bought the car with 106K miles on it, and got a pretty good price. I'm afraid the previous owner did not take care of the car quite the way you might have hoped. At this point you should consider either selling the car or replacing the engine. A rebuild will likely not be economic. An engine with compression this low has suffered severe neglect, and it is a guarantee the crankshaft is scored. What were your numbers when you passed DriveClean when you transferred ownership? Do you still have the printout? Did the car start and run OK when you bought it? > > The ignition circuitry does seem to be giving a good spark. > > He agreed that just replacing the ICM (which the first mechanic did) > was something sort of odd. He would have opted to replace the whole > assembly for a remanufactured one. > > Sigh ... > Sorry, Adam. Wish the news was better. -- Tegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ |
Re: '93 Civic CX - DIED in parking lot?!?
<madmanguruman@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1180536400.115161.192510@q69g2000hsb.googlegr oups.com... > I interrogated my mechanic today (in person) and was able to see a > very good reason for my engine woes. > > Compression test: 105 / 80 / 60 / 60 which improved on the low > cylinders when a little oil was squirted in. Looks like a ring problem > - explains the sluggishness and hesitation too. He expects ~110 psi > across the board for an engine of my vintage. > OTOH, you have a heck of a doorstop there. Mike |
Re: '93 Civic CX - DIED in parking lot?!?
<madmanguruman@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1180536400.115161.192510@q69g2000hsb.googlegr oups.com... > I interrogated my mechanic today (in person) and was able to see a > very good reason for my engine woes. > > Compression test: 105 / 80 / 60 / 60 which improved on the low > cylinders when a little oil was squirted in. Looks like a ring problem > - explains the sluggishness and hesitation too. He expects ~110 psi > across the board for an engine of my vintage. > OTOH, you have a heck of a doorstop there. Mike |
Re: '93 Civic CX - DIED in parking lot?!?
> While I considered the possibility of low compression as being the cause
> of your woes, I did not expect that your compression could be that low > at this mileage. Of course. No one expects a reasonably-well-working D-series engine to just fall apart like that. We certainly didn't! We've been religious with our 5000 km oil and filter changes, usually erring on the side of caution (and never going more than 100 km over). We never bothered with premium gas since the owner's manual specifies 87 octane. The previous owner indicated that the car did have an overheat problem for a time, during which it was not used for long trips. The owner's brother-in-law "fixed it" at which point they resumed using it both short haul and good highway drives (i.e. Toronto to Montreal and back), but I'd say that 75% of the car's use prior to my takeover of it was strictly city. > What were your numbers when you passed DriveClean when you transferred > ownership? Do you still have the printout? Did the car start and run OK > when you bought it? March 2006 / August 2004 (when purchased) 40 km/h HC PPM: 23 / 0 CO%: 0.02 / 0.03 NO PPM: 104 / 128 RPM: 1809 / 2122 Dilution: 14.62 / 14.73 Curb idle: HC PPM: 15 / 0 CO %: 0 / 0 RPM: 751 / 751 Dilution 13.50 / 14.10 The shop that did both of these certifications (not our regular mechanic, BTW) is currently under a 4-month DriveClean inspection suspension, as per the MTO website. The car ran OK even after purchase, but was sluggish getting up to speed. The big tune-up done in early 2005 remedied that nicely (plugs, wires, cap, rotor, PCV valve, rocker gaskets). The only "problem" that was found during the one-and-only tune-up was that one of the vacuum hoses had collapsed, which was MacGyvered by cutting out the stressed portion and clamping the two pieces around a metal stent (since the mechanic indicated that a new hose would have to come from the dealership) Ever since that tune-up, the oil consumption has slowly been creeping upwards, to the point where we needed to top up over a quart between changes. I don't blame the workmanship. > I'm afraid the previous owner did not take care of the car quite the way > you might have hoped. At this point you should consider either selling > the car or replacing the engine. > > A rebuild will likely not be economic. An engine with compression this > low has suffered severe neglect, and it is a guarantee the crankshaft is > scored. Considering the money we've put into the drive train and body, our mechanic is going to install a used JDM for us, most likely a D16Y. $1200 plus taxes (plus $150 to replace the rotting radiator at the same time - might as well with the engine out). Is my understanding correct in that the D16 series doesn't suffer from the oil-leak-around-the-plug problem? If you want to update the gory details to the site, feel free ... Six weeks ago: ICM and rocker gaskets (no spark) Four weeks ago: Front passenger side tire sidewall failure (covered by Cdn Tire warranty) Three weeks ago: Passenger side balljoint separation while driving (fortunately while driving out of a parking lot) This week: Catastrophic compression failure - engine and radiator replacement Plus our cat needed surgery! Seven thousand big ones in seven weeks... |
Re: '93 Civic CX - DIED in parking lot?!?
> While I considered the possibility of low compression as being the cause
> of your woes, I did not expect that your compression could be that low > at this mileage. Of course. No one expects a reasonably-well-working D-series engine to just fall apart like that. We certainly didn't! We've been religious with our 5000 km oil and filter changes, usually erring on the side of caution (and never going more than 100 km over). We never bothered with premium gas since the owner's manual specifies 87 octane. The previous owner indicated that the car did have an overheat problem for a time, during which it was not used for long trips. The owner's brother-in-law "fixed it" at which point they resumed using it both short haul and good highway drives (i.e. Toronto to Montreal and back), but I'd say that 75% of the car's use prior to my takeover of it was strictly city. > What were your numbers when you passed DriveClean when you transferred > ownership? Do you still have the printout? Did the car start and run OK > when you bought it? March 2006 / August 2004 (when purchased) 40 km/h HC PPM: 23 / 0 CO%: 0.02 / 0.03 NO PPM: 104 / 128 RPM: 1809 / 2122 Dilution: 14.62 / 14.73 Curb idle: HC PPM: 15 / 0 CO %: 0 / 0 RPM: 751 / 751 Dilution 13.50 / 14.10 The shop that did both of these certifications (not our regular mechanic, BTW) is currently under a 4-month DriveClean inspection suspension, as per the MTO website. The car ran OK even after purchase, but was sluggish getting up to speed. The big tune-up done in early 2005 remedied that nicely (plugs, wires, cap, rotor, PCV valve, rocker gaskets). The only "problem" that was found during the one-and-only tune-up was that one of the vacuum hoses had collapsed, which was MacGyvered by cutting out the stressed portion and clamping the two pieces around a metal stent (since the mechanic indicated that a new hose would have to come from the dealership) Ever since that tune-up, the oil consumption has slowly been creeping upwards, to the point where we needed to top up over a quart between changes. I don't blame the workmanship. > I'm afraid the previous owner did not take care of the car quite the way > you might have hoped. At this point you should consider either selling > the car or replacing the engine. > > A rebuild will likely not be economic. An engine with compression this > low has suffered severe neglect, and it is a guarantee the crankshaft is > scored. Considering the money we've put into the drive train and body, our mechanic is going to install a used JDM for us, most likely a D16Y. $1200 plus taxes (plus $150 to replace the rotting radiator at the same time - might as well with the engine out). Is my understanding correct in that the D16 series doesn't suffer from the oil-leak-around-the-plug problem? If you want to update the gory details to the site, feel free ... Six weeks ago: ICM and rocker gaskets (no spark) Four weeks ago: Front passenger side tire sidewall failure (covered by Cdn Tire warranty) Three weeks ago: Passenger side balljoint separation while driving (fortunately while driving out of a parking lot) This week: Catastrophic compression failure - engine and radiator replacement Plus our cat needed surgery! Seven thousand big ones in seven weeks... |
Re: '93 Civic CX - DIED in parking lot?!?
Michael Pardee wrote: > <madmanguruman@gmail.com> wrote in message > news:1180536400.115161.192510@q69g2000hsb.googlegr oups.com... > >>I interrogated my mechanic today (in person) and was able to see a >>very good reason for my engine woes. >> >>Compression test: 105 / 80 / 60 / 60 which improved on the low >>cylinders when a little oil was squirted in. Looks like a ring problem >>- explains the sluggishness and hesitation too. He expects ~110 psi >>across the board for an engine of my vintage. >> > > > OTOH, you have a heck of a doorstop there. > > Mike > > Yep... Anything under 100psi will probably not fire. JT |
Re: '93 Civic CX - DIED in parking lot?!?
Michael Pardee wrote: > <madmanguruman@gmail.com> wrote in message > news:1180536400.115161.192510@q69g2000hsb.googlegr oups.com... > >>I interrogated my mechanic today (in person) and was able to see a >>very good reason for my engine woes. >> >>Compression test: 105 / 80 / 60 / 60 which improved on the low >>cylinders when a little oil was squirted in. Looks like a ring problem >>- explains the sluggishness and hesitation too. He expects ~110 psi >>across the board for an engine of my vintage. >> > > > OTOH, you have a heck of a doorstop there. > > Mike > > Yep... Anything under 100psi will probably not fire. JT |
Re: '93 Civic CX - DIED in parking lot?!?
Adam Christopher Lawrence <madmanguruman@gmail.com> wrote in
news:6d34b$465e2e4f$cf705650$9863@PRIMUS.CA: >> While I considered the possibility of low compression as being the >> cause of your woes, I did not expect that your compression could be >> that low at this mileage. > > Of course. No one expects a reasonably-well-working D-series engine to > just fall apart like that. We certainly didn't! They don't. Only if neglected or abused! > > We've been religious with our 5000 km oil and filter changes, usually > erring on the side of caution (and never going more than 100 km over). > > We never bothered with premium gas since the owner's manual specifies > 87 octane. > > The previous owner indicated that the car did have an overheat problem > for a time, during which it was not used for long trips. The owner's > brother-in-law "fixed it" at which point they resumed using it both > short haul and good highway drives (i.e. Toronto to Montreal and > back), but I'd say that 75% of the car's use prior to my takeover of > it was strictly city. Overheating? Uh-oh. I wonder if it came to replacing the head gasket. If the brother-in-law used sandpaper to clean the block face when replacing the head gasket, you engine's days are numbered. Grit falls into the bores and chews up the rings extremely hastily. There is one more possibility for the low compression: A warped head, or a burned valve. If the valve seats are not dead square to the valves, they won't seal completely. If the clearances have not been maintained, the exhaust valve can burn, also leading to leakage. The test for this involves rotating the engine by hand until the valves are closed, then blowing shop air into the cylinder through the spark plug hole. If there is hissing through the throttle body or the exhaust, a valve is not seating properly. There is a (remote) chance that soft carbon buildup is propping one of the valves open, something that can happen to cars that spend much of their time doing short-hop, low-speed city driving. In that case, an "Italian tuneup" will usually cure that. > >> What were your numbers when you passed DriveClean when you >> transferred ownership? Do you still have the printout? Did the car >> start and run OK when you bought it? > > March 2006 / August 2004 (when purchased) > 40 km/h > HC PPM: 23 / 0 > CO%: 0.02 / 0.03 > NO PPM: 104 / 128 > RPM: 1809 / 2122 > Dilution: 14.62 / 14.73 > > Curb idle: > HC PPM: 15 / 0 > CO %: 0 / 0 > RPM: 751 / 751 > Dilution 13.50 / 14.10 Amazing what a good cat will eat up. Those numbers are very good. > > The shop that did both of these certifications (not our regular > mechanic, BTW) is currently under a 4-month DriveClean inspection > suspension, as per the MTO website. > > The car ran OK even after purchase, but was sluggish getting up to > speed. The big tune-up done in early 2005 remedied that nicely (plugs, > wires, cap, rotor, PCV valve, rocker gaskets). The only "problem" that > was found during the one-and-only tune-up was that one of the vacuum > hoses had collapsed, which was MacGyvered by cutting out the stressed > portion and clamping the two pieces around a metal stent (since the > mechanic indicated that a new hose would have to come from the > dealership) > > Ever since that tune-up, the oil consumption has slowly been creeping > upwards, to the point where we needed to top up over a quart between > changes. I don't blame the workmanship. You also just might be paying more attention to oil consumption than you were before. What you describe is about 3,000 miles per quart of oil. That's somewhat high, but acceptable for an engine that's not had the best of care. Disastrous would be if you wewre having to dump in a quart with every gas fillup. > >> I'm afraid the previous owner did not take care of the car quite the >> way you might have hoped. At this point you should consider either >> selling the car or replacing the engine. >> >> A rebuild will likely not be economic. An engine with compression >> this low has suffered severe neglect, and it is a guarantee the >> crankshaft is scored. > > Considering the money we've put into the drive train and body, our > mechanic is going to install a used JDM for us, most likely a D16Y. > $1200 plus taxes (plus $150 to replace the rotting radiator at the > same time - might as well with the engine out). JDM is a good idea. However, be prepared for possible glitches, such as having to drill new holes or fabricate brackets. Non-North American engines have some stuff in different places. > > Is my understanding correct in that the D16 series doesn't suffer from > the oil-leak-around-the-plug problem? All the D and B-series are prone to oil leakage if the gaskets are not changed occasionally. Oil leakage is exacerbated if oil changes are neglected, which I suspect was the case before you bought the car. > > If you want to update the gory details to the site, feel free ... > > Six weeks ago: ICM and rocker gaskets (no spark) > Four weeks ago: Front passenger side tire sidewall failure (covered by > Cdn Tire warranty) > Three weeks ago: Passenger side balljoint separation while driving > (fortunately while driving out of a parking lot) > This week: Catastrophic compression failure - engine and radiator > replacement > > Plus our cat needed surgery! Seven thousand big ones in seven weeks... You're nothing if not persistent. I'll put this up soon. -- Tegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ |
Re: '93 Civic CX - DIED in parking lot?!?
Adam Christopher Lawrence <madmanguruman@gmail.com> wrote in
news:6d34b$465e2e4f$cf705650$9863@PRIMUS.CA: >> While I considered the possibility of low compression as being the >> cause of your woes, I did not expect that your compression could be >> that low at this mileage. > > Of course. No one expects a reasonably-well-working D-series engine to > just fall apart like that. We certainly didn't! They don't. Only if neglected or abused! > > We've been religious with our 5000 km oil and filter changes, usually > erring on the side of caution (and never going more than 100 km over). > > We never bothered with premium gas since the owner's manual specifies > 87 octane. > > The previous owner indicated that the car did have an overheat problem > for a time, during which it was not used for long trips. The owner's > brother-in-law "fixed it" at which point they resumed using it both > short haul and good highway drives (i.e. Toronto to Montreal and > back), but I'd say that 75% of the car's use prior to my takeover of > it was strictly city. Overheating? Uh-oh. I wonder if it came to replacing the head gasket. If the brother-in-law used sandpaper to clean the block face when replacing the head gasket, you engine's days are numbered. Grit falls into the bores and chews up the rings extremely hastily. There is one more possibility for the low compression: A warped head, or a burned valve. If the valve seats are not dead square to the valves, they won't seal completely. If the clearances have not been maintained, the exhaust valve can burn, also leading to leakage. The test for this involves rotating the engine by hand until the valves are closed, then blowing shop air into the cylinder through the spark plug hole. If there is hissing through the throttle body or the exhaust, a valve is not seating properly. There is a (remote) chance that soft carbon buildup is propping one of the valves open, something that can happen to cars that spend much of their time doing short-hop, low-speed city driving. In that case, an "Italian tuneup" will usually cure that. > >> What were your numbers when you passed DriveClean when you >> transferred ownership? Do you still have the printout? Did the car >> start and run OK when you bought it? > > March 2006 / August 2004 (when purchased) > 40 km/h > HC PPM: 23 / 0 > CO%: 0.02 / 0.03 > NO PPM: 104 / 128 > RPM: 1809 / 2122 > Dilution: 14.62 / 14.73 > > Curb idle: > HC PPM: 15 / 0 > CO %: 0 / 0 > RPM: 751 / 751 > Dilution 13.50 / 14.10 Amazing what a good cat will eat up. Those numbers are very good. > > The shop that did both of these certifications (not our regular > mechanic, BTW) is currently under a 4-month DriveClean inspection > suspension, as per the MTO website. > > The car ran OK even after purchase, but was sluggish getting up to > speed. The big tune-up done in early 2005 remedied that nicely (plugs, > wires, cap, rotor, PCV valve, rocker gaskets). The only "problem" that > was found during the one-and-only tune-up was that one of the vacuum > hoses had collapsed, which was MacGyvered by cutting out the stressed > portion and clamping the two pieces around a metal stent (since the > mechanic indicated that a new hose would have to come from the > dealership) > > Ever since that tune-up, the oil consumption has slowly been creeping > upwards, to the point where we needed to top up over a quart between > changes. I don't blame the workmanship. You also just might be paying more attention to oil consumption than you were before. What you describe is about 3,000 miles per quart of oil. That's somewhat high, but acceptable for an engine that's not had the best of care. Disastrous would be if you wewre having to dump in a quart with every gas fillup. > >> I'm afraid the previous owner did not take care of the car quite the >> way you might have hoped. At this point you should consider either >> selling the car or replacing the engine. >> >> A rebuild will likely not be economic. An engine with compression >> this low has suffered severe neglect, and it is a guarantee the >> crankshaft is scored. > > Considering the money we've put into the drive train and body, our > mechanic is going to install a used JDM for us, most likely a D16Y. > $1200 plus taxes (plus $150 to replace the rotting radiator at the > same time - might as well with the engine out). JDM is a good idea. However, be prepared for possible glitches, such as having to drill new holes or fabricate brackets. Non-North American engines have some stuff in different places. > > Is my understanding correct in that the D16 series doesn't suffer from > the oil-leak-around-the-plug problem? All the D and B-series are prone to oil leakage if the gaskets are not changed occasionally. Oil leakage is exacerbated if oil changes are neglected, which I suspect was the case before you bought the car. > > If you want to update the gory details to the site, feel free ... > > Six weeks ago: ICM and rocker gaskets (no spark) > Four weeks ago: Front passenger side tire sidewall failure (covered by > Cdn Tire warranty) > Three weeks ago: Passenger side balljoint separation while driving > (fortunately while driving out of a parking lot) > This week: Catastrophic compression failure - engine and radiator > replacement > > Plus our cat needed surgery! Seven thousand big ones in seven weeks... You're nothing if not persistent. I'll put this up soon. -- Tegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ |
Re: '93 Civic CX - DIED in parking lot?!?
Tegger <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in
news:Xns99416C31ABA1Ategger@207.14.116.130: > > The test for this involves rotating the engine by hand until the > valves are closed, then blowing shop air into the cylinder through the > spark plug hole. If there is hissing through the throttle body or the > exhaust, a valve is not seating properly. Disconnect the PCV system before doing this! -- Tegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ |
Re: '93 Civic CX - DIED in parking lot?!?
Tegger <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in
news:Xns99416C31ABA1Ategger@207.14.116.130: > > The test for this involves rotating the engine by hand until the > valves are closed, then blowing shop air into the cylinder through the > spark plug hole. If there is hissing through the throttle body or the > exhaust, a valve is not seating properly. Disconnect the PCV system before doing this! -- Tegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ |
Re: '93 Civic CX - DIED in parking lot?!?
> If the brother-in-law used sandpaper to clean the block face when
> replacing the head gasket, you engine's days are numbered. Grit falls > into the bores and chews up the rings extremely hastily. I would estimate this repair at somewhere around 2 years prior to my purchase of the car, so we're talking 4-5 years. My mechanic doesn't think that the head gasket is to blame. > There is one more possibility for the low compression: A warped head, or > a burned valve. If the valve seats are not dead square to the valves, > they won't seal completely. If the clearances have not been maintained, > the exhaust valve can burn, also leading to leakage. > There is a (remote) chance that soft carbon buildup is propping one of > the valves open, something that can happen to cars that spend much of > their time doing short-hop, low-speed city driving. In that case, an > "Italian tuneup" will usually cure that. We consistently bring (brought, I suppose, is the correct term now) the car up to 120-130 km/h during highway driving, which for us is at least once per week (minimum). Good 300-400 km round trips would happen at least monthly. > JDM is a good idea. However, be prepared for possible glitches, such as > having to drill new holes or fabricate brackets. Non-North American > engines have some stuff in different places. Good to know; I'll be sure to ask the mechanic once the car is ready. Fortunately, I haven't yet done my annual rustproofing, so any new holes/brackets/etc will get hit when I get the work done. (I use Krown - no one that I know has had a bad experience with them.) > All the D and B-series are prone to oil leakage if the gaskets are not > changed occasionally. Oil leakage is exacerbated if oil changes are > neglected, which I suspect was the case before you bought the car. That's also good to know. My car should be roadworthy again by Saturday - update to follow! |
Re: '93 Civic CX - DIED in parking lot?!?
> If the brother-in-law used sandpaper to clean the block face when
> replacing the head gasket, you engine's days are numbered. Grit falls > into the bores and chews up the rings extremely hastily. I would estimate this repair at somewhere around 2 years prior to my purchase of the car, so we're talking 4-5 years. My mechanic doesn't think that the head gasket is to blame. > There is one more possibility for the low compression: A warped head, or > a burned valve. If the valve seats are not dead square to the valves, > they won't seal completely. If the clearances have not been maintained, > the exhaust valve can burn, also leading to leakage. > There is a (remote) chance that soft carbon buildup is propping one of > the valves open, something that can happen to cars that spend much of > their time doing short-hop, low-speed city driving. In that case, an > "Italian tuneup" will usually cure that. We consistently bring (brought, I suppose, is the correct term now) the car up to 120-130 km/h during highway driving, which for us is at least once per week (minimum). Good 300-400 km round trips would happen at least monthly. > JDM is a good idea. However, be prepared for possible glitches, such as > having to drill new holes or fabricate brackets. Non-North American > engines have some stuff in different places. Good to know; I'll be sure to ask the mechanic once the car is ready. Fortunately, I haven't yet done my annual rustproofing, so any new holes/brackets/etc will get hit when I get the work done. (I use Krown - no one that I know has had a bad experience with them.) > All the D and B-series are prone to oil leakage if the gaskets are not > changed occasionally. Oil leakage is exacerbated if oil changes are > neglected, which I suspect was the case before you bought the car. That's also good to know. My car should be roadworthy again by Saturday - update to follow! |
Re: '93 Civic CX - DIED in parking lot?!?
madmanguruman@gmail.com wrote in news:1180649039.430754.72360
@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com: > > We consistently bring (brought, I suppose, is the correct term now) > the car up to 120-130 km/h during highway driving, which for us is at > least once per week (minimum). Good 300-400 km round trips would > happen at least monthly. That's good. My thinking about the valves being burned or not seating correctly has to do with the oil consumption. If your rings were that badly worn as to cause severely low compression, I'd also expect you to have to add a quart of oil every gas fillup, and be laying down a smokescreen as you drive. But since you're reporting 3K/qt, I think there is a possibility your rings aren't really that bad, and that it's actually the valves that may be the problem. If they are, it would be a sight cheaper to have the head remanned rather than replacing the whole engine. Hence my recommendation to perform the air-hiss test. -- Tegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ |
Re: '93 Civic CX - DIED in parking lot?!?
madmanguruman@gmail.com wrote in news:1180649039.430754.72360
@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com: > > We consistently bring (brought, I suppose, is the correct term now) > the car up to 120-130 km/h during highway driving, which for us is at > least once per week (minimum). Good 300-400 km round trips would > happen at least monthly. That's good. My thinking about the valves being burned or not seating correctly has to do with the oil consumption. If your rings were that badly worn as to cause severely low compression, I'd also expect you to have to add a quart of oil every gas fillup, and be laying down a smokescreen as you drive. But since you're reporting 3K/qt, I think there is a possibility your rings aren't really that bad, and that it's actually the valves that may be the problem. If they are, it would be a sight cheaper to have the head remanned rather than replacing the whole engine. Hence my recommendation to perform the air-hiss test. -- Tegger The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ |
Re: '93 Civic CX - DIED in parking lot?!?
Tegger wrote:
> madmanguruman@gmail.com wrote in news:1180649039.430754.72360 > @w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com: > > >> We consistently bring (brought, I suppose, is the correct term now) >> the car up to 120-130 km/h during highway driving, which for us is at >> least once per week (minimum). Good 300-400 km round trips would >> happen at least monthly. > > > That's good. > > My thinking about the valves being burned or not seating correctly has to > do with the oil consumption. If your rings were that badly worn as to cause > severely low compression, I'd also expect you to have to add a quart of oil > every gas fillup, and be laying down a smokescreen as you drive. > > But since you're reporting 3K/qt, I think there is a possibility your rings > aren't really that bad, and that it's actually the valves that may be the > problem. yes, but most unlikely it's all of them. more likely the timing belt's slipped. valve timing affects compression numbers. > > If they are, it would be a sight cheaper to have the head remanned rather > than replacing the whole engine. Hence my recommendation to perform the > air-hiss test. nah, can't even get the head off for the price of a jdm motor, let alone doing any work on the head once it's off. if there's any mechanical problem, unless you're doing the work yourself, replacement is just too cheap to be not done. |
Re: '93 Civic CX - DIED in parking lot?!?
Tegger wrote:
> madmanguruman@gmail.com wrote in news:1180649039.430754.72360 > @w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com: > > >> We consistently bring (brought, I suppose, is the correct term now) >> the car up to 120-130 km/h during highway driving, which for us is at >> least once per week (minimum). Good 300-400 km round trips would >> happen at least monthly. > > > That's good. > > My thinking about the valves being burned or not seating correctly has to > do with the oil consumption. If your rings were that badly worn as to cause > severely low compression, I'd also expect you to have to add a quart of oil > every gas fillup, and be laying down a smokescreen as you drive. > > But since you're reporting 3K/qt, I think there is a possibility your rings > aren't really that bad, and that it's actually the valves that may be the > problem. yes, but most unlikely it's all of them. more likely the timing belt's slipped. valve timing affects compression numbers. > > If they are, it would be a sight cheaper to have the head remanned rather > than replacing the whole engine. Hence my recommendation to perform the > air-hiss test. nah, can't even get the head off for the price of a jdm motor, let alone doing any work on the head once it's off. if there's any mechanical problem, unless you're doing the work yourself, replacement is just too cheap to be not done. |
Re: '93 Civic CX - DIED in parking lot?!?
Now that I think about it (hindsight being 20/20) there were a few
other signs that I should probably have looked into... 1) On cold days, after a cold start the idle RPM would surge up and down a few times before settling down. I thought that my Canadian Tire remote starter was acting up until normal keyed starts would do the same thing. 2) I would perceive a change in the idle RPM when idling at a light and the turn signal was blinking. It sounded like the idle was just a bit faster when the light was off, and a little slower when it was on. |
Re: '93 Civic CX - DIED in parking lot?!?
Now that I think about it (hindsight being 20/20) there were a few
other signs that I should probably have looked into... 1) On cold days, after a cold start the idle RPM would surge up and down a few times before settling down. I thought that my Canadian Tire remote starter was acting up until normal keyed starts would do the same thing. 2) I would perceive a change in the idle RPM when idling at a light and the turn signal was blinking. It sounded like the idle was just a bit faster when the light was off, and a little slower when it was on. |
Re: '93 Civic CX - DIED in parking lot?!?
Delay getting the JDM engine ... sigh ... so much for the "local" supplier. The clown car is still at the garage. Fingers crossed for tomorrow. If I didn't trust my mechanic I'd have towed the carcass somewhere else by now (perhaps the scrapyard) - blasphemous words, I know ... I'm letting cooler heads deal with things (the wife) :) |
Re: '93 Civic CX - DIED in parking lot?!?
Delay getting the JDM engine ... sigh ... so much for the "local" supplier. The clown car is still at the garage. Fingers crossed for tomorrow. If I didn't trust my mechanic I'd have towed the carcass somewhere else by now (perhaps the scrapyard) - blasphemous words, I know ... I'm letting cooler heads deal with things (the wife) :) |
Re: '93 Civic CX - DIED in parking lot?!?
sell it and get a monkey!
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