robb

hi,

haven't ben here in a while but now i'm back with perplexing
problem.

i was driving along highway 70 mph and the engines just ** cuts
out **
no warning, no sputter, no bucking, no shimmer, no funny noises
{clunks, thudss nothing}

engine truns over fine, power going to everything fuses look ok,
half-tank of gas

is the that RELAY problem can't remember what it was called ?

need help and ideas,
thanks,
rob

robb

hi,
haven't ben here in a while but now i'm back with
perplexingproblem.

i was driving along highway 70 mph and the engines just ** cuts
out **
no warning, no sputter, no bucking, no shimmer, no funny noises
{clunks, thuds nothing}

engine turns over fine, power going to everything fuses look ok,
half-tank of gas

is this that RELAY problem can't remember what it was called ?

need help and ideas,
thanks,
rob

Tegger

"robb" <some@where.on.net> wrote in news:13je0kh3pch9fb8
@corp.supernews.com:

> hi,
> haven't ben here in a while but now i'm back with
> perplexingproblem.
>
> i was driving along highway 70 mph and the engines just ** cuts
> out **
> no warning, no sputter, no bucking, no shimmer, no funny noises
> {clunks, thuds nothing}
>
> engine turns over fine, power going to everything fuses look ok,
> half-tank of gas
>
> is this that RELAY problem can't remember what it was called ?
>



Does it eventually restart?

Igniter or coil. Most likely igniter.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

robb

"Tegger" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in message
news:Xns99E55C961285tegger@207.14.116.130...
> "robb" <some@where.on.net> wrote in news:13je0kh3pch9fb8
> @corp.supernews.com:
>
> > i was driving along highway 70 mph and the engines just **
cuts
> > out **
> > no warning, no sputter, no bucking, no shimmer, no funny
noises
> > {clunks, thuds nothing}
> >
> > engine turns over fine, power going to everything fuses look
ok,
> > half-tank of gas
> >
> > is this that RELAY problem can't remember what it was called
?
> >
>
> Does it eventually restart?
> Igniter or coil. Most likely igniter.

Hi Tegger,
Thanks for the help and reply.

no, it did not and does not restart.

Is there a way to test the ignitor ? i have basic electronic
diagnostic tools eg. Multi-Meter ?

thanks again for your help,
rob

Tegger

"robb" <some@where.on.net> wrote in
news:13je4j6b51ijq37@corp.supernews.com:

>
> "Tegger" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in message
> news:Xns99E55C961285tegger@207.14.116.130...

>>
>> Does it eventually restart?
>> Igniter or coil. Most likely igniter.
>
> Hi Tegger,
> Thanks for the help and reply.
>
> no, it did not and does not restart.
>
> Is there a way to test the ignitor ? i have basic electronic
> diagnostic tools eg. Multi-Meter ?
>


http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/faq.html#startrun

http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/start...tml#badigniter



--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

motsco_

robb wrote:
> hi,
>
> haven't ben here in a while but now i'm back with perplexing
> problem.
>
> i was driving along highway 70 mph and the engines just ** cuts
> out **
> no warning, no sputter, no bucking, no shimmer, no funny noises
> {clunks, thudss nothing}
>
> engine truns over fine, power going to everything fuses look ok,
> half-tank of gas
>
> is the that RELAY problem can't remember what it was called ?
>
> need help and ideas,
> thanks,
> rob

--------------------------------

Look inside the valve cover (oil filler cap) while cranking. If nothing
is moving, it's the Timing Belt. Removing the distributor cap will
confirm the same, while cranking for a second.

'Curly'

robb

"Tegger" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in message
news:Xns99E5680BBA59Dtegger@207.14.116.130...
> "robb" <some@where.on.net> wrote in
> news:13je4j6b51ijq37@corp.supernews.com:
> > "Tegger" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in message
> > news:Xns99E55C961285tegger@207.14.116.130...
> >> Does it eventually restart?
> >> Igniter or coil. Most likely igniter.
> >
> > no, it did not and does not restart.
> >
> > Is there a way to test the ignitor ?
>
> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/faq.html#startrun
> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/start...tml#badigniter
>

You got it Tegger,
Ignitor had failed *off*. i connected it up with bulb trick and
it would not switch , then i compared to a new one which switches
just fine.


One more question : when i lifted the distributor cap i found the
*spring* that sits between the coil and the distributor cap ...
well the top part was bent way over and appears that it was not
making the connection it should with the cap. *BUT* rather it was
just a spark gap. There is a nice burned spot on the small metal
contact post that is up in the distributor cap

Ques: Could that condition where the contatct spring between
the *Coil* and the *Cap* is not connected cause stress on the
ignitor or thew coil and maybe cause pre-mature failure ?

my reasoning being that a spark gap was causing some parts of the
ignition system to work harder maybe due to less performance from
the double sparking that had to occur ?

thanks so much for the help ,
rob

jim beam

robb wrote:
> "Tegger" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in message
> news:Xns99E5680BBA59Dtegger@207.14.116.130...
>> "robb" <some@where.on.net> wrote in
>> news:13je4j6b51ijq37@corp.supernews.com:
>>> "Tegger" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in message
>>> news:Xns99E55C961285tegger@207.14.116.130...
>>>> Does it eventually restart?
>>>> Igniter or coil. Most likely igniter.
>>> no, it did not and does not restart.
>>>
>>> Is there a way to test the ignitor ?
>> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/faq.html#startrun
>> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/start...tml#badigniter
>>
>
> You got it Tegger,
> Ignitor had failed *off*. i connected it up with bulb trick and
> it would not switch , then i compared to a new one which switches
> just fine.
>
>
> One more question : when i lifted the distributor cap i found the
> *spring* that sits between the coil and the distributor cap ...
> well the top part was bent way over and appears that it was not
> making the connection it should with the cap. *BUT* rather it was
> just a spark gap. There is a nice burned spot on the small metal
> contact post that is up in the distributor cap
>
> Ques: Could that condition where the contatct spring between
> the *Coil* and the *Cap* is not connected cause stress on the
> ignitor or thew coil and maybe cause pre-mature failure ?
>
> my reasoning being that a spark gap was causing some parts of the
> ignition system to work harder maybe due to less performance from
> the double sparking that had to occur ?
>
> thanks so much for the help ,
> rob
>

quite possibly, although the igniter should be able to cope with full
open circuit discharge. it's academic at this stage - you need a new
distributor cap and rotor, and you already have a new igniter. now
you'll be set for the next several years.

Tegger

"robb" <some@where.on.net> wrote in news:13jfmorq64mhe69
@corp.supernews.com:

>
> "Tegger" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in message
> news:Xns99E5680BBA59Dtegger@207.14.116.130...
>> "robb" <some@where.on.net> wrote in
>> news:13je4j6b51ijq37@corp.supernews.com:
>> > "Tegger" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in message
>> > news:Xns99E55C961285tegger@207.14.116.130...
>> >> Does it eventually restart?
>> >> Igniter or coil. Most likely igniter.
>> >
>> > no, it did not and does not restart.
>> >
>> > Is there a way to test the ignitor ?
>>
>> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/faq.html#startrun
>> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/start...tml#badigniter
>>
>
> You got it Tegger,
> Ignitor had failed *off*. i connected it up with bulb trick and
> it would not switch , then i compared to a new one which switches
> just fine.
>
>
> One more question : when i lifted the distributor cap i found the
> *spring* that sits between the coil and the distributor cap ...
> well the top part was bent way over and appears that it was not
> making the connection it should with the cap. *BUT* rather it was
> just a spark gap. There is a nice burned spot on the small metal
> contact post that is up in the distributor cap



Oooh, bad. Aftermarket cap?


>
> Ques: Could that condition where the contatct spring between
> the *Coil* and the *Cap* is not connected cause stress on the
> ignitor or thew coil and maybe cause pre-mature failure ?



Like jim says, it's possible. Apparently the igniter controls its own
dwell by sensing back EMF as the coil charges up. I guess if the coil
ends up oversaturated, the excessive backwash HT voltage thus generated
may serve to damage the igniter.


>
> my reasoning being that a spark gap was causing some parts of the
> ignition system to work harder maybe due to less performance from
> the double sparking that had to occur ?
>


That's very possible. The entire system exists for the sole purpose of
making a spark jump at the plugs. If anything at all interferes with
that goal, the rest of the system will be subject to abnormal load,
possibly to the point of inducing failure.

By the way, I know OEM parts are expensive, but I strongly advise you to
replace your igntion components with OEM only. Anything else is asking
for trouble.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Jim Yanik

Tegger <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in
news:Xns99E654BA948D6tegger@207.14.116.130:


>
> Like jim says, it's possible. Apparently the igniter controls its own
> dwell by sensing back EMF as the coil charges up.

From the pictures of an igniter you posted awhile back,the igniter has a
control IC that measures the emitter current while the coil is charging
up.I believe there's a resistor printed on the ceramic substrate that is
the current sensing resistor.

> I guess if the coil
> ends up oversaturated, the excessive backwash HT voltage thus generated
> may serve to damage the igniter.
>

There should be a catch or snubber diode to prevent back EMF from damaging
the igniter,it may be integral with the switching transistor;they do the
same for TV flyback HV supplies.(they also use current sensing to control
coil current,lots of switching power supplies also use it.)

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Tegger

Tegger <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in
news:Xns99E654BA948D6tegger@207.14.116.130:


>
> By the way, I know OEM parts are expensive, but I strongly advise you
> to replace your igntion components with OEM only. Anything else is
> asking for trouble.
>
>



An exception would be the most expensive part, the igniter. You should be
able to retrieve a decent used OEM igniter from a local wreckers for about
five or ten bucks.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Tegger

Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in
news:Xns99E6730552E23jyanikkuanet@64.209.0.84:

> Tegger <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in
> news:Xns99E654BA948D6tegger@207.14.116.130:
>
>
>>
>> Like jim says, it's possible. Apparently the igniter controls its own
>> dwell by sensing back EMF as the coil charges up.
>
> From the pictures of an igniter you posted awhile back,the igniter has
> a control IC that measures the emitter current



"Emitter current"... What's the difference between that and "back EMF"?



> while the coil is
> charging up.I believe there's a resistor printed on the ceramic
> substrate that is the current sensing resistor.



I remember this being mentioned way back while we were discussing the
igniter pages before I made those pages up. Thanks for the reminder.



>
>> I guess if the coil
>> ends up oversaturated, the excessive backwash HT voltage thus
>> generated may serve to damage the igniter.
>>
>
> There should be a catch or snubber diode to prevent back EMF from
> damaging the igniter,it may be integral with the switching
> transistor;they do the same for TV flyback HV supplies.(they also use
> current sensing to control coil current,lots of switching power
> supplies also use it.)
>



So then maybe the OP's igniter simply suffered a random failure.

I've got 295,300 miles and seventeen years on my original igniter.
Borrowed time?


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Jim Yanik

Tegger <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in
news:Xns99E69B75C2AEFtegger@207.14.116.130:

> Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in
> news:Xns99E6730552E23jyanikkuanet@64.209.0.84:
>
>> Tegger <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in
>> news:Xns99E654BA948D6tegger@207.14.116.130:
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Like jim says, it's possible. Apparently the igniter controls its own
>>> dwell by sensing back EMF as the coil charges up.
>>
>> From the pictures of an igniter you posted awhile back,the igniter has
>> a control IC that measures the emitter current
>
>
>
> "Emitter current"... What's the difference between that and "back EMF"?

"back EMF" is the current generated when the coil is -disconnected- from
the charging current,or as commonly called,the "flyback current". The IC
measures the CHARGING current,thru a resistor from emitter to ground(while
the transistor is ON).
The "back EMF" is the high voltage discharge generated for the spark
plugs when the coil's magnetic field collapses when the charge current is
switched off.Part of it's path is thru the snub diode/condenser,around the
switching transistor,to ground.

What is called "dwell" is the time the coil is being charged,when the
points or transistor is "ON" and 12V is charging the coil.The longer the
dwell,the greater the magnetic field built up,and the higher the back EMF
generated when the charge current is disconnected(points open or transistor
switches OFF).

>
>
>
>> while the coil is
>> charging up.I believe there's a resistor printed on the ceramic
>> substrate that is the current sensing resistor.
>
>
>
> I remember this being mentioned way back while we were discussing the
> igniter pages before I made those pages up. Thanks for the reminder.
>
>
>
>>
>>> I guess if the coil
>>> ends up oversaturated, the excessive backwash HT voltage thus
>>> generated may serve to damage the igniter.
>>>
>>
>> There should be a catch or snubber diode to prevent back EMF from
>> damaging the igniter,it may be integral with the switching
>> transistor;they do the same for TV flyback HV supplies.(they also use
>> current sensing to control coil current,lots of switching power
>> supplies also use it.)
>>
>
>
>
> So then maybe the OP's igniter simply suffered a random failure.
>
> I've got 295,300 miles and seventeen years on my original igniter.
> Borrowed time?
>
>

I see no reason for an igniter to fail simply from age or mileage.
I suspect poor heatsinking(that white compound between the ceramic
substrate and the aluminum of the distributor) or coil/wire arcing
transients.Grime buildup can also interfere with heat transfer or allow for
leakage currents to flow across the circuit improperly.Moisture would not
be good,either.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Tegger

Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in
news:Xns99E6BFE30BAC5jyanikkuanet@64.209.0.86:

> Tegger <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in
> news:Xns99E69B75C2AEFtegger@207.14.116.130:
>
>> Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in
>> news:Xns99E6730552E23jyanikkuanet@64.209.0.84:
>>
>>> Tegger <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in
>>> news:Xns99E654BA948D6tegger@207.14.116.130:
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Like jim says, it's possible. Apparently the igniter controls its
>>>> own dwell by sensing back EMF as the coil charges up.
>>>
>>> From the pictures of an igniter you posted awhile back,the igniter
>>> has a control IC that measures the emitter current
>>
>>
>>
>> "Emitter current"... What's the difference between that and "back
>> EMF"?
>
> "back EMF" is the current generated when the coil is -disconnected-
> from the charging current,or as commonly called,the "flyback current".
> The IC measures the CHARGING current,thru a resistor from emitter to
> ground(while the transistor is ON).
> The "back EMF" is the high voltage discharge generated for the spark
> plugs when the coil's magnetic field collapses when the charge current
> is switched off.Part of it's path is thru the snub
> diode/condenser,around the switching transistor,to ground.
>
> What is called "dwell" is the time the coil is being charged,when the
> points or transistor is "ON" and 12V is charging the coil.The longer
> the dwell,the greater the magnetic field built up,and the higher the
> back EMF generated when the charge current is disconnected(points open
> or transistor switches OFF).



OK....

Then it seems like I need to change my reference to "back EMF" to read
"emitter current" on the relevant igniter page.

You have not yet defined "emitter current". Can you?



--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Elle

"Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote
Tegger wrote
>> So then maybe the OP's igniter simply suffered a random
>> failure.
>>
>> I've got 295,300 miles and seventeen years on my original
>> igniter.
>> Borrowed time?
>>
>>
>
> I see no reason for an igniter to fail simply from age or
> mileage.
> I suspect poor heatsinking(that white compound between the
> ceramic
> substrate and the aluminum of the distributor) or
> coil/wire arcing
> transients.Grime buildup can also interfere with heat
> transfer or allow for
> leakage currents to flow across the circuit
> improperly.Moisture would not
> be good,either.

Old wires or old spark plugs, or non-OEM of same, seem to me
to candidates for contributing to failure of the igniter
too. I base this on my experience with my 91 Civic's igniter
(in the years when I was likely using non-OEM wires and/or
plugs, or just not caring carefully for the OEM ones) vs.
Tegger's set routine of replacing rotor, cap, and wires
every five years.