RickBell

Not sure what is causing oil problem -- still passed last annual Mass
emmisions inspection. Would an oil leak caused by either valve seals or
pistons rings exhibit a sign like smoke from exhaust? Currently no
noticable smoke from exhaust, except a little puff when starting -- but
still passes emmisions test.

Car purchased on 6/25/02 with 119K miles from a young man who installed
a Direct Air Charger, Nology Hot Wires, and Denso Iridium Power
Performance Spark plugs (non-resistor) at 110K miles. No other
modifications (e.g. to cam, etc. not sure why he did it). It was
leaking oil at that point, but got a good deal on it ($2500) and he had
all previous service records -- timing belt and water pump replaced at
92K miles. Valve adjust was done also at this service. Good oil used --
Penzoil 5W-30 with 4K intervals, but previous owner had intervals
averaging 6K miles at Jiffy Lube.

If the valve lash was done correctly and a valve became burnt
afterwards, then would it measure tight due to the burnt area, which
may raise the valve? If so, then maybe hard to prove incorrect
adjustment?

I have good relationship with Honda Dealer -- have had no problems
before and bought 3 new Hondas from them (1992 Accord, 1997 Odyssey,
and 2001 Accord) and have had two other used Hondas (1995 Civic -- the
problem, and 1998 Civic) serviced with them. Maybe they will consider a
goodwill adjustment.

As I stated earlier, on the 146K mile service, the 30K service was
performed which includes on the invoice a valve adjustment. This last
valve adjustment was performed by technician certification of "Honda"
vs "Honda Master". Not sure if that makes a difference, but less
experience I assume?

Still pondering next step:
1. ask the Honda Dealer to share some of the cost -- the dealer would
be the one to judge themselves on correct valve lash adjustment
2. only have #2 valves replaced and live with oil issue -- hopefully
will not get worse
3. go with added expense of head rebuild -- Honda seems to like using
new parts (will they use rebuilt?) -- and resolve oil issue or am I
mistaken that this requires an complete engine rebuilt? Not sure of
cost of this.
4. Not sure what to ask the Honda Dealer to do since the cause of the
oil leak has not been determined -- would they have to disassemble
engine to determine if ring issue -- as well as the reason for no
compression in #2? My open up a can of worms/expenses!
5. I do not think that I can go to Small Claims since I do not have a
loss yet -- I will only after the repair
6. sell the car as-is (for parts -- since will probably not pass Mass
inspection currently) for best offer to someone who is mechanically
inclined -- any bids?

Rick

jim beam

RickBell wrote:
> Not sure what is causing oil problem -- still passed last annual Mass
> emmisions inspection. Would an oil leak caused by either valve seals or
> pistons rings exhibit a sign like smoke from exhaust? Currently no
> noticable smoke from exhaust, except a little puff when starting -- but
> still passes emmisions test.
>
> Car purchased on 6/25/02 with 119K miles from a young man who installed
> a Direct Air Charger, Nology Hot Wires, and Denso Iridium Power
> Performance Spark plugs (non-resistor) at 110K miles. No other
> modifications (e.g. to cam, etc. not sure why he did it). It was
> leaking oil at that point, but got a good deal on it ($2500) and he had
> all previous service records -- timing belt and water pump replaced at
> 92K miles. Valve adjust was done also at this service. Good oil used --
> Penzoil 5W-30 with 4K intervals, but previous owner had intervals
> averaging 6K miles at Jiffy Lube.

ok - those two points dramatically change the whole equation.

1. the puff of smoke on starting is definitely oil - at working
temperature, a catalyst burns what you'd otherwise see in an older car.

2. that air intake mod stuff is guaranteed to ruin rings. it sacrifices
filter efficiency for flow rate - the result is that fine dust gets
ingested and has an abrasive effect on the cylinder wall/ring interface.
suddenly a 300k motor is lucky to get 100k.

based on the above, i wouldn't bother repairing this motor. i'd get a
japanese replacement for $500 and have it swapped out. those motors are
typically 50k miles or less. it's a much better deal than spending $1k
on what we now know to be worn out.

>
> If the valve lash was done correctly and a valve became burnt
> afterwards, then would it measure tight due to the burnt area, which
> may raise the valve?

no - tightness means that at full working temperature, metal expansion
stops the valve closing completely. leakage of hot exhaust gas through
the resultant tiny opening causes the valve to get too hot, it softens,
then starts to erode. with correct operation, the valve head gets to
cool when it's in complete contact with the valve seat which is in turn
cooled by the head and liquid coolant circulation.

> If so, then maybe hard to prove incorrect
> adjustment?

no - if the valve is too tight, it's too tight. the wear rate is real
slow, so if it was adjusted 5k ago, any change due to normal wear & tear
should be so small as to be not measurable - assuming oil maintenance /
quality is decent, etc. therefore, if a valve measures tight, even when
it's burnt, it's due to the adjustment, /not/ the erosion.

>
> I have good relationship with Honda Dealer -- have had no problems
> before and bought 3 new Hondas from them (1992 Accord, 1997 Odyssey,
> and 2001 Accord) and have had two other used Hondas (1995 Civic -- the
> problem, and 1998 Civic) serviced with them. Maybe they will consider a
> goodwill adjustment.

adjustment of the cost, not the valves! adjusting valves at this point
won't fix the problem - only pulling the head and replacing the valve
can do that.

>
> As I stated earlier, on the 146K mile service, the 30K service was
> performed which includes on the invoice a valve adjustment. This last
> valve adjustment was performed by technician certification of "Honda"
> vs "Honda Master". Not sure if that makes a difference, but less
> experience I assume?

presumably. i'm not honda certified.

>
> Still pondering next step:
> 1. ask the Honda Dealer to share some of the cost -- the dealer would
> be the one to judge themselves on correct valve lash adjustment
> 2. only have #2 valves replaced and live with oil issue -- hopefully
> will not get worse
> 3. go with added expense of head rebuild -- Honda seems to like using
> new parts (will they use rebuilt?) -- and resolve oil issue or am I
> mistaken that this requires an complete engine rebuilt? Not sure of
> cost of this.
> 4. Not sure what to ask the Honda Dealer to do since the cause of the
> oil leak has not been determined -- would they have to disassemble
> engine to determine if ring issue -- as well as the reason for no
> compression in #2? My open up a can of worms/expenses!
> 5. I do not think that I can go to Small Claims since I do not have a
> loss yet -- I will only after the repair
> 6. sell the car as-is (for parts -- since will probably not pass Mass
> inspection currently) for best offer to someone who is mechanically
> inclined -- any bids?
>
> Rick
>

in view of the mod history, i'd definitely reject any claim if i were
the dealer - you'd have to be spending a /lot/ more with me to get me to
pick up the tab on something that is already garbage and won't be coming
back to me much longer.

i say do the japanese motor swap and regard it as the price you paid for:
1. the "good deal" going in on a car that had been monkeyed with before
you got it.
2. the learning experience of why such a car /needs/ to be heavily
discounted.

there's a bunch of places online that ship these used japanese engines -
you just find the mechanic to do the swap. then you have a car that
will be good for another 200/300k miles or as long as the body lasts.

RickBell

jim beam wrote:

> i say do the japanese motor swap and regard it as the price you paid for:
> 1. the "good deal" going in on a car that had been monkeyed with before
> you got it.
> 2. the learning experience of why such a car /needs/ to be heavily
> discounted.
>
> there's a bunch of places online that ship these used japanese engines -
> you just find the mechanic to do the swap. then you have a car that
> will be good for another 200/300k miles or as long as the body lasts.

Appreciate all of your help. Questions on the japanese motor swap:
o Any dealer better than others -- testing, etc.(Rising Star, Japan
Direct, ATK, etc.)?
o Has your experience been that these engines are reliable (better
testing by some dealers)?
o Will the japanese engines work with American emisions equipment?
o Other parts recommended/needed to complete swap not included with
engine (e.g. new timing belt, water pump, other)?
o Cost to swap, including engine (approx $500 + $100 shipping to Mass +
additional parts + labor) = $????
o Should I look for direct replacement (1.5 liter 95 Civic) or upgrade
to 1.6 liter 95 Civic VTEC or will that complicate matters?

Rick

jim beam

RickBell wrote:
> jim beam wrote:
>
>
>>i say do the japanese motor swap and regard it as the price you paid for:
>>1. the "good deal" going in on a car that had been monkeyed with before
>>you got it.
>>2. the learning experience of why such a car /needs/ to be heavily
>>discounted.
>>
>>there's a bunch of places online that ship these used japanese engines -
>>you just find the mechanic to do the swap. then you have a car that
>>will be good for another 200/300k miles or as long as the body lasts.
>
>
> Appreciate all of your help. Questions on the japanese motor swap:
> o Any dealer better than others -- testing, etc.(Rising Star, Japan
> Direct, ATK, etc.)?

keep asking around - i offer no endorsements. get a 30 day warranty -
it's all you need. if it works at all, it's fine.

> o Has your experience been that these engines are reliable (better
> testing by some dealers)?
> o Will the japanese engines work with American emisions equipment?

yes - if you get the same series engine and use your existing bolt-ons.

> o Other parts recommended/needed to complete swap not included with
> engine (e.g. new timing belt, water pump, other)?

to /not/ do these when the motor is out is a badly missed opportunity.
parts are <$100 and labor with the motor out is trivial.

> o Cost to swap, including engine (approx $500 + $100 shipping to Mass +
> additional parts + labor) = $????

shouldn't cost a whole lot more than labor on a clutch change. call the
independents.

> o Should I look for direct replacement (1.5 liter 95 Civic) or upgrade
> to 1.6 liter 95 Civic VTEC or will that complicate matters?

it's a little more complicated. call your local "2ner" shops for
quotes. it'll add to the cost significantly because of different
wiring, ecu, and possibly transmission. fun though!

>
> Rick
>