Adding an O2 sensor?
Hello,
My 95 Civic ESi (Philippine domestic version) is similar to the U.S. EX version, I think. It has a PH16 engine (PGM-FI, 16Valve, 1.6Li, SOHC non-vtec, ECU code P27) but has no oxygen sensor. This is common knowledge here, and there is a plug where the sensor should be. My question is, is this a great disadvantage in terms of mileage? Average mileage for civics here is 18 to 24 MPG (~8-10km/liter). Is the ECU always running in open loop mode? Can we somehow buy an O2 sensor and put it in, and if so, will this buy us much MPG-wise? Thanks so much in advance. |
Re: Adding an O2 sensor?
sharx333 wrote:
> Hello, > > My 95 Civic ESi (Philippine domestic version) is similar to the U.S. EX > version, I think. It has a PH16 engine (PGM-FI, 16Valve, 1.6Li, SOHC > non-vtec, ECU code P27) but has no oxygen sensor. This is common > knowledge here, and there is a plug where the sensor should be. really? can you post a pic? it's hard to imagine the point of running fuel injection absent the sensor because without it, the ecu doesn't know for sure how much gas to inject. > My > question is, is this a great disadvantage in terms of mileage? Average > mileage for civics here is 18 to 24 MPG (~8-10km/liter). > > Is the ECU always running in open loop mode? presumably. > Can we somehow buy an O2 > sensor and put it in, and if so, will this buy us much MPG-wise? presumably, but you may need to do extensive wiring mods. it could save you significantly in gas. > > Thanks so much in advance. > double check on this "common knowledge" thing - i've never seen any electronic fuel injection system that doesn't have a sensor - without it, the ecu is "blind". check both sides of the cat as well as in the manifold. it would be amazing if one wasn't there somewhere. |
Re: Adding an O2 sensor?
sharx333 wrote:
> Hello, > > My 95 Civic ESi (Philippine domestic version) is similar to the U.S. EX > version, I think. It has a PH16 engine (PGM-FI, 16Valve, 1.6Li, SOHC > non-vtec, ECU code P27) but has no oxygen sensor. This is common > knowledge here, and there is a plug where the sensor should be. really? can you post a pic? it's hard to imagine the point of running fuel injection absent the sensor because without it, the ecu doesn't know for sure how much gas to inject. > My > question is, is this a great disadvantage in terms of mileage? Average > mileage for civics here is 18 to 24 MPG (~8-10km/liter). > > Is the ECU always running in open loop mode? presumably. > Can we somehow buy an O2 > sensor and put it in, and if so, will this buy us much MPG-wise? presumably, but you may need to do extensive wiring mods. it could save you significantly in gas. > > Thanks so much in advance. > double check on this "common knowledge" thing - i've never seen any electronic fuel injection system that doesn't have a sensor - without it, the ecu is "blind". check both sides of the cat as well as in the manifold. it would be amazing if one wasn't there somewhere. |
Re: Adding an O2 sensor?
sharx333 wrote:
> Hello, > > My 95 Civic ESi (Philippine domestic version) is similar to the U.S. EX > version, I think. It has a PH16 engine (PGM-FI, 16Valve, 1.6Li, SOHC > non-vtec, ECU code P27) but has no oxygen sensor. This is common > knowledge here, and there is a plug where the sensor should be. really? can you post a pic? it's hard to imagine the point of running fuel injection absent the sensor because without it, the ecu doesn't know for sure how much gas to inject. > My > question is, is this a great disadvantage in terms of mileage? Average > mileage for civics here is 18 to 24 MPG (~8-10km/liter). > > Is the ECU always running in open loop mode? presumably. > Can we somehow buy an O2 > sensor and put it in, and if so, will this buy us much MPG-wise? presumably, but you may need to do extensive wiring mods. it could save you significantly in gas. > > Thanks so much in advance. > double check on this "common knowledge" thing - i've never seen any electronic fuel injection system that doesn't have a sensor - without it, the ecu is "blind". check both sides of the cat as well as in the manifold. it would be amazing if one wasn't there somewhere. |
Re: Adding an O2 sensor?
jim beam wrote:
> > double check on this "common knowledge" thing - i've never seen any > electronic fuel injection system that doesn't have a sensor - without > it, the ecu is "blind". check both sides of the cat as well as in the > manifold. it would be amazing if one wasn't there somewhere. Interesting. Early fuel injection systems sold in the US were indeed open loop designs, such as the Bosch D-Jetronic which was installed on many late 1960s and early 1970s era Volkswagens and Volvos. Closed loop came into general use about the same time as three way catalytic converters did. Late 1970s and onward. I suppose that it is possible that car makers built open loop versions for countries without emissions regulations much later than the 1980s, but I have no idea how it was done or if it is possible to easily convert such systems to closed loop operations. John |
Re: Adding an O2 sensor?
jim beam wrote:
> > double check on this "common knowledge" thing - i've never seen any > electronic fuel injection system that doesn't have a sensor - without > it, the ecu is "blind". check both sides of the cat as well as in the > manifold. it would be amazing if one wasn't there somewhere. Interesting. Early fuel injection systems sold in the US were indeed open loop designs, such as the Bosch D-Jetronic which was installed on many late 1960s and early 1970s era Volkswagens and Volvos. Closed loop came into general use about the same time as three way catalytic converters did. Late 1970s and onward. I suppose that it is possible that car makers built open loop versions for countries without emissions regulations much later than the 1980s, but I have no idea how it was done or if it is possible to easily convert such systems to closed loop operations. John |
Re: Adding an O2 sensor?
jim beam wrote:
> > double check on this "common knowledge" thing - i've never seen any > electronic fuel injection system that doesn't have a sensor - without > it, the ecu is "blind". check both sides of the cat as well as in the > manifold. it would be amazing if one wasn't there somewhere. Interesting. Early fuel injection systems sold in the US were indeed open loop designs, such as the Bosch D-Jetronic which was installed on many late 1960s and early 1970s era Volkswagens and Volvos. Closed loop came into general use about the same time as three way catalytic converters did. Late 1970s and onward. I suppose that it is possible that car makers built open loop versions for countries without emissions regulations much later than the 1980s, but I have no idea how it was done or if it is possible to easily convert such systems to closed loop operations. John |
Re: Adding an O2 sensor?
Hello again and thanks for the replies. I've posted photos at this
link, if you're interested: http://hondaswap.com/ecus-electronic...24/#post698583 I think this version (ESi, Philippines) is a "stripped-down" version, if you will, of the EG 4-door coupe (92-95) with a D16Z6 engine, minus the VTEC. I've been using the service manual for some time now, and all other parts match. The manual doesn't say anything about other O2 sensors though. This may have been done to make it more affordable, even though at the time this was the top-of-the-line model here. Also, the emission laws here aren't as strict as in the U.S., and back in the early '90's they were even less so. Am I missing something here?? Are our civics "crippled"? John Horner wrote: > jim beam wrote: > > > > > double check on this "common knowledge" thing - i've never seen any > > electronic fuel injection system that doesn't have a sensor - without > > it, the ecu is "blind". check both sides of the cat as well as in the > > manifold. it would be amazing if one wasn't there somewhere. > > > Interesting. Early fuel injection systems sold in the US were indeed > open loop designs, such as the Bosch D-Jetronic which was installed on > many late 1960s and early 1970s era Volkswagens and Volvos. Closed loop > came into general use about the same time as three way catalytic > converters did. Late 1970s and onward. > > I suppose that it is possible that car makers built open loop versions > for countries without emissions regulations much later than the 1980s, > but I have no idea how it was done or if it is possible to easily > convert such systems to closed loop operations. > > John |
Re: Adding an O2 sensor?
Hello again and thanks for the replies. I've posted photos at this
link, if you're interested: http://hondaswap.com/ecus-electronic...24/#post698583 I think this version (ESi, Philippines) is a "stripped-down" version, if you will, of the EG 4-door coupe (92-95) with a D16Z6 engine, minus the VTEC. I've been using the service manual for some time now, and all other parts match. The manual doesn't say anything about other O2 sensors though. This may have been done to make it more affordable, even though at the time this was the top-of-the-line model here. Also, the emission laws here aren't as strict as in the U.S., and back in the early '90's they were even less so. Am I missing something here?? Are our civics "crippled"? John Horner wrote: > jim beam wrote: > > > > > double check on this "common knowledge" thing - i've never seen any > > electronic fuel injection system that doesn't have a sensor - without > > it, the ecu is "blind". check both sides of the cat as well as in the > > manifold. it would be amazing if one wasn't there somewhere. > > > Interesting. Early fuel injection systems sold in the US were indeed > open loop designs, such as the Bosch D-Jetronic which was installed on > many late 1960s and early 1970s era Volkswagens and Volvos. Closed loop > came into general use about the same time as three way catalytic > converters did. Late 1970s and onward. > > I suppose that it is possible that car makers built open loop versions > for countries without emissions regulations much later than the 1980s, > but I have no idea how it was done or if it is possible to easily > convert such systems to closed loop operations. > > John |
Re: Adding an O2 sensor?
Hello again and thanks for the replies. I've posted photos at this
link, if you're interested: http://hondaswap.com/ecus-electronic...24/#post698583 I think this version (ESi, Philippines) is a "stripped-down" version, if you will, of the EG 4-door coupe (92-95) with a D16Z6 engine, minus the VTEC. I've been using the service manual for some time now, and all other parts match. The manual doesn't say anything about other O2 sensors though. This may have been done to make it more affordable, even though at the time this was the top-of-the-line model here. Also, the emission laws here aren't as strict as in the U.S., and back in the early '90's they were even less so. Am I missing something here?? Are our civics "crippled"? John Horner wrote: > jim beam wrote: > > > > > double check on this "common knowledge" thing - i've never seen any > > electronic fuel injection system that doesn't have a sensor - without > > it, the ecu is "blind". check both sides of the cat as well as in the > > manifold. it would be amazing if one wasn't there somewhere. > > > Interesting. Early fuel injection systems sold in the US were indeed > open loop designs, such as the Bosch D-Jetronic which was installed on > many late 1960s and early 1970s era Volkswagens and Volvos. Closed loop > came into general use about the same time as three way catalytic > converters did. Late 1970s and onward. > > I suppose that it is possible that car makers built open loop versions > for countries without emissions regulations much later than the 1980s, > but I have no idea how it was done or if it is possible to easily > convert such systems to closed loop operations. > > John |
Re: Adding an O2 sensor?
sharx333 wrote:
> Hello again and thanks for the replies. I've posted photos at this > link, if you're interested: > > http://hondaswap.com/ecus-electronic...24/#post698583 > > I think this version (ESi, Philippines) is a "stripped-down" version, > if you will, of the EG 4-door coupe (92-95) with a D16Z6 engine, minus > the VTEC. I've been using the service manual for some time now, and all > other parts match. The manual doesn't say anything about other O2 > sensors though. > > This may have been done to make it more affordable, even though at the > time this was the top-of-the-line model here. Also, the emission laws > here aren't as strict as in the U.S., and back in the early '90's they > were even less so. > > Am I missing something here?? Are our civics "crippled"? it certainly looks that way! john raises the good point about pre-catalyst injection systems not having sensors [i'd forgotten that - it's /so/ long since i've seen one!] and you've posted the pics. but it still amazes me. the cost of a sensor, in bulk, to a manufacturer has got to be less than $50. it's astonishing that honda would elect not to use one - maybe there was a legal reason. getting back to your original question, you can almost certainly retrofit, but there will obviously be wiring involved and it would probably require acquisition of a new ecu. interesting project though! and you may as well go for the vtec while you're at it! > > > > > > > John Horner wrote: >> jim beam wrote: >> >>> double check on this "common knowledge" thing - i've never seen any >>> electronic fuel injection system that doesn't have a sensor - without >>> it, the ecu is "blind". check both sides of the cat as well as in the >>> manifold. it would be amazing if one wasn't there somewhere. >> >> Interesting. Early fuel injection systems sold in the US were indeed >> open loop designs, such as the Bosch D-Jetronic which was installed on >> many late 1960s and early 1970s era Volkswagens and Volvos. Closed loop >> came into general use about the same time as three way catalytic >> converters did. Late 1970s and onward. >> >> I suppose that it is possible that car makers built open loop versions >> for countries without emissions regulations much later than the 1980s, >> but I have no idea how it was done or if it is possible to easily >> convert such systems to closed loop operations. >> >> John > |
Re: Adding an O2 sensor?
sharx333 wrote:
> Hello again and thanks for the replies. I've posted photos at this > link, if you're interested: > > http://hondaswap.com/ecus-electronic...24/#post698583 > > I think this version (ESi, Philippines) is a "stripped-down" version, > if you will, of the EG 4-door coupe (92-95) with a D16Z6 engine, minus > the VTEC. I've been using the service manual for some time now, and all > other parts match. The manual doesn't say anything about other O2 > sensors though. > > This may have been done to make it more affordable, even though at the > time this was the top-of-the-line model here. Also, the emission laws > here aren't as strict as in the U.S., and back in the early '90's they > were even less so. > > Am I missing something here?? Are our civics "crippled"? it certainly looks that way! john raises the good point about pre-catalyst injection systems not having sensors [i'd forgotten that - it's /so/ long since i've seen one!] and you've posted the pics. but it still amazes me. the cost of a sensor, in bulk, to a manufacturer has got to be less than $50. it's astonishing that honda would elect not to use one - maybe there was a legal reason. getting back to your original question, you can almost certainly retrofit, but there will obviously be wiring involved and it would probably require acquisition of a new ecu. interesting project though! and you may as well go for the vtec while you're at it! > > > > > > > John Horner wrote: >> jim beam wrote: >> >>> double check on this "common knowledge" thing - i've never seen any >>> electronic fuel injection system that doesn't have a sensor - without >>> it, the ecu is "blind". check both sides of the cat as well as in the >>> manifold. it would be amazing if one wasn't there somewhere. >> >> Interesting. Early fuel injection systems sold in the US were indeed >> open loop designs, such as the Bosch D-Jetronic which was installed on >> many late 1960s and early 1970s era Volkswagens and Volvos. Closed loop >> came into general use about the same time as three way catalytic >> converters did. Late 1970s and onward. >> >> I suppose that it is possible that car makers built open loop versions >> for countries without emissions regulations much later than the 1980s, >> but I have no idea how it was done or if it is possible to easily >> convert such systems to closed loop operations. >> >> John > |
Re: Adding an O2 sensor?
sharx333 wrote:
> Hello again and thanks for the replies. I've posted photos at this > link, if you're interested: > > http://hondaswap.com/ecus-electronic...24/#post698583 > > I think this version (ESi, Philippines) is a "stripped-down" version, > if you will, of the EG 4-door coupe (92-95) with a D16Z6 engine, minus > the VTEC. I've been using the service manual for some time now, and all > other parts match. The manual doesn't say anything about other O2 > sensors though. > > This may have been done to make it more affordable, even though at the > time this was the top-of-the-line model here. Also, the emission laws > here aren't as strict as in the U.S., and back in the early '90's they > were even less so. > > Am I missing something here?? Are our civics "crippled"? it certainly looks that way! john raises the good point about pre-catalyst injection systems not having sensors [i'd forgotten that - it's /so/ long since i've seen one!] and you've posted the pics. but it still amazes me. the cost of a sensor, in bulk, to a manufacturer has got to be less than $50. it's astonishing that honda would elect not to use one - maybe there was a legal reason. getting back to your original question, you can almost certainly retrofit, but there will obviously be wiring involved and it would probably require acquisition of a new ecu. interesting project though! and you may as well go for the vtec while you're at it! > > > > > > > John Horner wrote: >> jim beam wrote: >> >>> double check on this "common knowledge" thing - i've never seen any >>> electronic fuel injection system that doesn't have a sensor - without >>> it, the ecu is "blind". check both sides of the cat as well as in the >>> manifold. it would be amazing if one wasn't there somewhere. >> >> Interesting. Early fuel injection systems sold in the US were indeed >> open loop designs, such as the Bosch D-Jetronic which was installed on >> many late 1960s and early 1970s era Volkswagens and Volvos. Closed loop >> came into general use about the same time as three way catalytic >> converters did. Late 1970s and onward. >> >> I suppose that it is possible that car makers built open loop versions >> for countries without emissions regulations much later than the 1980s, >> but I have no idea how it was done or if it is possible to easily >> convert such systems to closed loop operations. >> >> John > |
Re: Adding an O2 sensor?
John Horner wrote:
> jim beam wrote: > >> >> double check on this "common knowledge" thing - i've never seen any >> electronic fuel injection system that doesn't have a sensor - without >> it, the ecu is "blind". check both sides of the cat as well as in the >> manifold. it would be amazing if one wasn't there somewhere. > > > Interesting. Early fuel injection systems sold in the US were indeed > open loop designs, such as the Bosch D-Jetronic which was installed on > many late 1960s and early 1970s era Volkswagens and Volvos. Closed loop > came into general use about the same time as three way catalytic > converters did. Late 1970s and onward. you're absolutely right. > > I suppose that it is possible that car makers built open loop versions > for countries without emissions regulations much later than the 1980s, > but I have no idea how it was done or if it is possible to easily > convert such systems to closed loop operations. > > John |
Re: Adding an O2 sensor?
John Horner wrote:
> jim beam wrote: > >> >> double check on this "common knowledge" thing - i've never seen any >> electronic fuel injection system that doesn't have a sensor - without >> it, the ecu is "blind". check both sides of the cat as well as in the >> manifold. it would be amazing if one wasn't there somewhere. > > > Interesting. Early fuel injection systems sold in the US were indeed > open loop designs, such as the Bosch D-Jetronic which was installed on > many late 1960s and early 1970s era Volkswagens and Volvos. Closed loop > came into general use about the same time as three way catalytic > converters did. Late 1970s and onward. you're absolutely right. > > I suppose that it is possible that car makers built open loop versions > for countries without emissions regulations much later than the 1980s, > but I have no idea how it was done or if it is possible to easily > convert such systems to closed loop operations. > > John |
Re: Adding an O2 sensor?
John Horner wrote:
> jim beam wrote: > >> >> double check on this "common knowledge" thing - i've never seen any >> electronic fuel injection system that doesn't have a sensor - without >> it, the ecu is "blind". check both sides of the cat as well as in the >> manifold. it would be amazing if one wasn't there somewhere. > > > Interesting. Early fuel injection systems sold in the US were indeed > open loop designs, such as the Bosch D-Jetronic which was installed on > many late 1960s and early 1970s era Volkswagens and Volvos. Closed loop > came into general use about the same time as three way catalytic > converters did. Late 1970s and onward. you're absolutely right. > > I suppose that it is possible that car makers built open loop versions > for countries without emissions regulations much later than the 1980s, > but I have no idea how it was done or if it is possible to easily > convert such systems to closed loop operations. > > John |
Re: Adding an O2 sensor?
John Horner <jthorner@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:49MMg.2566$xC3.1076@trnddc06: > jim beam wrote: > >> >> double check on this "common knowledge" thing - i've never seen any >> electronic fuel injection system that doesn't have a sensor - without >> it, the ecu is "blind". check both sides of the cat as well as in the >> manifold. it would be amazing if one wasn't there somewhere. > > > Interesting. Early fuel injection systems sold in the US were indeed > open loop designs, such as the Bosch D-Jetronic which was installed on > many late 1960s and early 1970s era Volkswagens and Volvos. Closed loop > came into general use about the same time as three way catalytic > converters did. Late 1970s and onward. > > I suppose that it is possible that car makers built open loop versions > for countries without emissions regulations much later than the 1980s, > but I have no idea how it was done or if it is possible to easily > convert such systems to closed loop operations. > > John Corvettes used to have a MECHANICAL fuel injection option(totally open- loop),long before EFI came to be. -- Jim Yanik jyanik at kua.net |
Re: Adding an O2 sensor?
John Horner <jthorner@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:49MMg.2566$xC3.1076@trnddc06: > jim beam wrote: > >> >> double check on this "common knowledge" thing - i've never seen any >> electronic fuel injection system that doesn't have a sensor - without >> it, the ecu is "blind". check both sides of the cat as well as in the >> manifold. it would be amazing if one wasn't there somewhere. > > > Interesting. Early fuel injection systems sold in the US were indeed > open loop designs, such as the Bosch D-Jetronic which was installed on > many late 1960s and early 1970s era Volkswagens and Volvos. Closed loop > came into general use about the same time as three way catalytic > converters did. Late 1970s and onward. > > I suppose that it is possible that car makers built open loop versions > for countries without emissions regulations much later than the 1980s, > but I have no idea how it was done or if it is possible to easily > convert such systems to closed loop operations. > > John Corvettes used to have a MECHANICAL fuel injection option(totally open- loop),long before EFI came to be. -- Jim Yanik jyanik at kua.net |
Re: Adding an O2 sensor?
John Horner <jthorner@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:49MMg.2566$xC3.1076@trnddc06: > jim beam wrote: > >> >> double check on this "common knowledge" thing - i've never seen any >> electronic fuel injection system that doesn't have a sensor - without >> it, the ecu is "blind". check both sides of the cat as well as in the >> manifold. it would be amazing if one wasn't there somewhere. > > > Interesting. Early fuel injection systems sold in the US were indeed > open loop designs, such as the Bosch D-Jetronic which was installed on > many late 1960s and early 1970s era Volkswagens and Volvos. Closed loop > came into general use about the same time as three way catalytic > converters did. Late 1970s and onward. > > I suppose that it is possible that car makers built open loop versions > for countries without emissions regulations much later than the 1980s, > but I have no idea how it was done or if it is possible to easily > convert such systems to closed loop operations. > > John Corvettes used to have a MECHANICAL fuel injection option(totally open- loop),long before EFI came to be. -- Jim Yanik jyanik at kua.net |
Re: Adding an O2 sensor?
"Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote > Corvettes used to have a MECHANICAL fuel injection option(totally open- > loop),long before EFI came to be. Anyone remember the Lucas mechanical FI system? Wonderful when it worked properly, a pig when it didn't, which was most of the time, being made by Lucas ... And some Peugeot 404's had a mechanical FI system too. sd |
Re: Adding an O2 sensor?
"Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote > Corvettes used to have a MECHANICAL fuel injection option(totally open- > loop),long before EFI came to be. Anyone remember the Lucas mechanical FI system? Wonderful when it worked properly, a pig when it didn't, which was most of the time, being made by Lucas ... And some Peugeot 404's had a mechanical FI system too. sd |
Re: Adding an O2 sensor?
"Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote > Corvettes used to have a MECHANICAL fuel injection option(totally open- > loop),long before EFI came to be. Anyone remember the Lucas mechanical FI system? Wonderful when it worked properly, a pig when it didn't, which was most of the time, being made by Lucas ... And some Peugeot 404's had a mechanical FI system too. sd |
Re: Adding an O2 sensor?
Does it have a converter?
Al "sharx333" <emil.santos@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1157832403.971773.202940@i3g2000cwc.googlegro ups.com... > Hello, > > My 95 Civic ESi (Philippine domestic version) is similar to the U.S. EX > version, I think. It has a PH16 engine (PGM-FI, 16Valve, 1.6Li, SOHC > non-vtec, ECU code P27) but has no oxygen sensor. This is common > knowledge here, and there is a plug where the sensor should be. My > question is, is this a great disadvantage in terms of mileage? Average > mileage for civics here is 18 to 24 MPG (~8-10km/liter). > > Is the ECU always running in open loop mode? Can we somehow buy an O2 > sensor and put it in, and if so, will this buy us much MPG-wise? > > Thanks so much in advance. > |
Re: Adding an O2 sensor?
Does it have a converter?
Al "sharx333" <emil.santos@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1157832403.971773.202940@i3g2000cwc.googlegro ups.com... > Hello, > > My 95 Civic ESi (Philippine domestic version) is similar to the U.S. EX > version, I think. It has a PH16 engine (PGM-FI, 16Valve, 1.6Li, SOHC > non-vtec, ECU code P27) but has no oxygen sensor. This is common > knowledge here, and there is a plug where the sensor should be. My > question is, is this a great disadvantage in terms of mileage? Average > mileage for civics here is 18 to 24 MPG (~8-10km/liter). > > Is the ECU always running in open loop mode? Can we somehow buy an O2 > sensor and put it in, and if so, will this buy us much MPG-wise? > > Thanks so much in advance. > |
Re: Adding an O2 sensor?
Does it have a converter?
Al "sharx333" <emil.santos@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1157832403.971773.202940@i3g2000cwc.googlegro ups.com... > Hello, > > My 95 Civic ESi (Philippine domestic version) is similar to the U.S. EX > version, I think. It has a PH16 engine (PGM-FI, 16Valve, 1.6Li, SOHC > non-vtec, ECU code P27) but has no oxygen sensor. This is common > knowledge here, and there is a plug where the sensor should be. My > question is, is this a great disadvantage in terms of mileage? Average > mileage for civics here is 18 to 24 MPG (~8-10km/liter). > > Is the ECU always running in open loop mode? Can we somehow buy an O2 > sensor and put it in, and if so, will this buy us much MPG-wise? > > Thanks so much in advance. > |
Re: Adding an O2 sensor?
Stewart DIBBS wrote:
> "Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote > >>Corvettes used to have a MECHANICAL fuel injection option(totally open- >>loop),long before EFI came to be. > > > Anyone remember the Lucas mechanical FI system? Wonderful when it worked > properly, a pig when it didn't, which was most of the time, being made by > Lucas ... > > And some Peugeot 404's had a mechanical FI system too. Look at any old diesel engine, particularly those on tractors and heavy equipment... mechanical FI there as well. |
Re: Adding an O2 sensor?
Stewart DIBBS wrote:
> "Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote > >>Corvettes used to have a MECHANICAL fuel injection option(totally open- >>loop),long before EFI came to be. > > > Anyone remember the Lucas mechanical FI system? Wonderful when it worked > properly, a pig when it didn't, which was most of the time, being made by > Lucas ... > > And some Peugeot 404's had a mechanical FI system too. Look at any old diesel engine, particularly those on tractors and heavy equipment... mechanical FI there as well. |
Re: Adding an O2 sensor?
Stewart DIBBS wrote:
> "Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote > >>Corvettes used to have a MECHANICAL fuel injection option(totally open- >>loop),long before EFI came to be. > > > Anyone remember the Lucas mechanical FI system? Wonderful when it worked > properly, a pig when it didn't, which was most of the time, being made by > Lucas ... > > And some Peugeot 404's had a mechanical FI system too. Look at any old diesel engine, particularly those on tractors and heavy equipment... mechanical FI there as well. |
Re: Adding an O2 sensor?
> > Am I missing something here?? Are our civics "crippled"? > > it certainly looks that way! john raises the good point about > pre-catalyst injection systems not having sensors [i'd forgotten that - > it's /so/ long since i've seen one!] and you've posted the pics. but it > still amazes me. the cost of a sensor, in bulk, to a manufacturer has > got to be less than $50. it's astonishing that honda would elect not to > use one - maybe there was a legal reason. > > getting back to your original question, you can almost certainly > retrofit, but there will obviously be wiring involved and it would > probably require acquisition of a new ecu. interesting project though! > and you may as well go for the vtec while you're at it! > > > Now that you mentioned it, it's also "common knowledge" here that this ESi doesn't have a catalytic converter! I'll have to go check.. where might it be located? |
Re: Adding an O2 sensor?
> > Am I missing something here?? Are our civics "crippled"? > > it certainly looks that way! john raises the good point about > pre-catalyst injection systems not having sensors [i'd forgotten that - > it's /so/ long since i've seen one!] and you've posted the pics. but it > still amazes me. the cost of a sensor, in bulk, to a manufacturer has > got to be less than $50. it's astonishing that honda would elect not to > use one - maybe there was a legal reason. > > getting back to your original question, you can almost certainly > retrofit, but there will obviously be wiring involved and it would > probably require acquisition of a new ecu. interesting project though! > and you may as well go for the vtec while you're at it! > > > Now that you mentioned it, it's also "common knowledge" here that this ESi doesn't have a catalytic converter! I'll have to go check.. where might it be located? |
Re: Adding an O2 sensor?
> > Am I missing something here?? Are our civics "crippled"? > > it certainly looks that way! john raises the good point about > pre-catalyst injection systems not having sensors [i'd forgotten that - > it's /so/ long since i've seen one!] and you've posted the pics. but it > still amazes me. the cost of a sensor, in bulk, to a manufacturer has > got to be less than $50. it's astonishing that honda would elect not to > use one - maybe there was a legal reason. > > getting back to your original question, you can almost certainly > retrofit, but there will obviously be wiring involved and it would > probably require acquisition of a new ecu. interesting project though! > and you may as well go for the vtec while you're at it! > > > Now that you mentioned it, it's also "common knowledge" here that this ESi doesn't have a catalytic converter! I'll have to go check.. where might it be located? |
Re: Adding an O2 sensor?
sharx333 wrote:
> >>> Am I missing something here?? Are our civics "crippled"? >> it certainly looks that way! john raises the good point about >> pre-catalyst injection systems not having sensors [i'd forgotten that - >> it's /so/ long since i've seen one!] and you've posted the pics. but it >> still amazes me. the cost of a sensor, in bulk, to a manufacturer has >> got to be less than $50. it's astonishing that honda would elect not to >> use one - maybe there was a legal reason. >> >> getting back to your original question, you can almost certainly >> retrofit, but there will obviously be wiring involved and it would >> probably require acquisition of a new ecu. interesting project though! >> and you may as well go for the vtec while you're at it! >> > > Now that you mentioned it, it's also "common knowledge" here that this > ESi doesn't have a catalytic converter! I'll have to go check.. where > might it be located? > it's a huge bump in the exhaust, round about where the passenger seat is. but if you don't have an oxygen sensor, you won't have a cat. regarding retrofit, it's not essential to have the cat. - the important bit is the sensor. |
Re: Adding an O2 sensor?
sharx333 wrote:
> >>> Am I missing something here?? Are our civics "crippled"? >> it certainly looks that way! john raises the good point about >> pre-catalyst injection systems not having sensors [i'd forgotten that - >> it's /so/ long since i've seen one!] and you've posted the pics. but it >> still amazes me. the cost of a sensor, in bulk, to a manufacturer has >> got to be less than $50. it's astonishing that honda would elect not to >> use one - maybe there was a legal reason. >> >> getting back to your original question, you can almost certainly >> retrofit, but there will obviously be wiring involved and it would >> probably require acquisition of a new ecu. interesting project though! >> and you may as well go for the vtec while you're at it! >> > > Now that you mentioned it, it's also "common knowledge" here that this > ESi doesn't have a catalytic converter! I'll have to go check.. where > might it be located? > it's a huge bump in the exhaust, round about where the passenger seat is. but if you don't have an oxygen sensor, you won't have a cat. regarding retrofit, it's not essential to have the cat. - the important bit is the sensor. |
Re: Adding an O2 sensor?
sharx333 wrote:
> >>> Am I missing something here?? Are our civics "crippled"? >> it certainly looks that way! john raises the good point about >> pre-catalyst injection systems not having sensors [i'd forgotten that - >> it's /so/ long since i've seen one!] and you've posted the pics. but it >> still amazes me. the cost of a sensor, in bulk, to a manufacturer has >> got to be less than $50. it's astonishing that honda would elect not to >> use one - maybe there was a legal reason. >> >> getting back to your original question, you can almost certainly >> retrofit, but there will obviously be wiring involved and it would >> probably require acquisition of a new ecu. interesting project though! >> and you may as well go for the vtec while you're at it! >> > > Now that you mentioned it, it's also "common knowledge" here that this > ESi doesn't have a catalytic converter! I'll have to go check.. where > might it be located? > it's a huge bump in the exhaust, round about where the passenger seat is. but if you don't have an oxygen sensor, you won't have a cat. regarding retrofit, it's not essential to have the cat. - the important bit is the sensor. |
Re: Adding an O2 sensor?
sharx333 wrote:
> >>> Am I missing something here?? Are our civics "crippled"? >> it certainly looks that way! john raises the good point about >> pre-catalyst injection systems not having sensors [i'd forgotten that - >> it's /so/ long since i've seen one!] and you've posted the pics. but it >> still amazes me. the cost of a sensor, in bulk, to a manufacturer has >> got to be less than $50. it's astonishing that honda would elect not to >> use one - maybe there was a legal reason. >> Fuel could also be an issue. In places where tetra ethyl lead continued to be used as an additive there would be an O2 sensor contamination issue. TEL was outlawed in the US many years ago, but much of the rest of the world continued to use it as an octane improver. That would explain the lack of O2 sensors in countries where the use of TEL continued. John |
Re: Adding an O2 sensor?
sharx333 wrote:
> >>> Am I missing something here?? Are our civics "crippled"? >> it certainly looks that way! john raises the good point about >> pre-catalyst injection systems not having sensors [i'd forgotten that - >> it's /so/ long since i've seen one!] and you've posted the pics. but it >> still amazes me. the cost of a sensor, in bulk, to a manufacturer has >> got to be less than $50. it's astonishing that honda would elect not to >> use one - maybe there was a legal reason. >> Fuel could also be an issue. In places where tetra ethyl lead continued to be used as an additive there would be an O2 sensor contamination issue. TEL was outlawed in the US many years ago, but much of the rest of the world continued to use it as an octane improver. That would explain the lack of O2 sensors in countries where the use of TEL continued. John |
Re: Adding an O2 sensor?
sharx333 wrote:
> >>> Am I missing something here?? Are our civics "crippled"? >> it certainly looks that way! john raises the good point about >> pre-catalyst injection systems not having sensors [i'd forgotten that - >> it's /so/ long since i've seen one!] and you've posted the pics. but it >> still amazes me. the cost of a sensor, in bulk, to a manufacturer has >> got to be less than $50. it's astonishing that honda would elect not to >> use one - maybe there was a legal reason. >> Fuel could also be an issue. In places where tetra ethyl lead continued to be used as an additive there would be an O2 sensor contamination issue. TEL was outlawed in the US many years ago, but much of the rest of the world continued to use it as an octane improver. That would explain the lack of O2 sensors in countries where the use of TEL continued. John |
Re: Adding an O2 sensor?
John Horner wrote:
> Fuel could also be an issue. In places where tetra ethyl lead continued > to be used as an additive there would be an O2 sensor contamination > issue. TEL was outlawed in the US many years ago, but much of the rest > of the world continued to use it as an octane improver. > > That would explain the lack of O2 sensors in countries where the use of > TEL continued. That could be it! Unleaded fuel was introduced here in 1994, while the EG line was from 1992-95. Is it true that leaded fuel could damage the O2 sensor? If this is the reason, and not cost-cutting, then could I simply, as jim says, "retrofit" a sensor? (Taking care to use only unleaded fuel, of course). The ECU is a P27 (OBD-1 EG JDM Civic 1600 sohc VTEC) which I think is the same as the one used in the EX US version. However this model has no VTEC, and no O2 sensor. Could they have left the ECU "as is"? Wouldn't Honda have used a different ECU code if it's not the same one? I'm just hoping that it is, since it means I could just plug a new sensor in. I'm not after the VTEC, just want to save on gas. |
Re: Adding an O2 sensor?
John Horner wrote:
> Fuel could also be an issue. In places where tetra ethyl lead continued > to be used as an additive there would be an O2 sensor contamination > issue. TEL was outlawed in the US many years ago, but much of the rest > of the world continued to use it as an octane improver. > > That would explain the lack of O2 sensors in countries where the use of > TEL continued. That could be it! Unleaded fuel was introduced here in 1994, while the EG line was from 1992-95. Is it true that leaded fuel could damage the O2 sensor? If this is the reason, and not cost-cutting, then could I simply, as jim says, "retrofit" a sensor? (Taking care to use only unleaded fuel, of course). The ECU is a P27 (OBD-1 EG JDM Civic 1600 sohc VTEC) which I think is the same as the one used in the EX US version. However this model has no VTEC, and no O2 sensor. Could they have left the ECU "as is"? Wouldn't Honda have used a different ECU code if it's not the same one? I'm just hoping that it is, since it means I could just plug a new sensor in. I'm not after the VTEC, just want to save on gas. |
Re: Adding an O2 sensor?
John Horner wrote:
> Fuel could also be an issue. In places where tetra ethyl lead continued > to be used as an additive there would be an O2 sensor contamination > issue. TEL was outlawed in the US many years ago, but much of the rest > of the world continued to use it as an octane improver. > > That would explain the lack of O2 sensors in countries where the use of > TEL continued. That could be it! Unleaded fuel was introduced here in 1994, while the EG line was from 1992-95. Is it true that leaded fuel could damage the O2 sensor? If this is the reason, and not cost-cutting, then could I simply, as jim says, "retrofit" a sensor? (Taking care to use only unleaded fuel, of course). The ECU is a P27 (OBD-1 EG JDM Civic 1600 sohc VTEC) which I think is the same as the one used in the EX US version. However this model has no VTEC, and no O2 sensor. Could they have left the ECU "as is"? Wouldn't Honda have used a different ECU code if it's not the same one? I'm just hoping that it is, since it means I could just plug a new sensor in. I'm not after the VTEC, just want to save on gas. |
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